EPTEuropean Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 1158
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Velr
Switzerland10811 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9733 Posts
On July 12 2018 22:56 iamthedave wrote: Ah, Kickboxer. Never missed, never mourned. May your ban be eternal so you can enjoy martyring yourself. I also love that he's acting like we haven't all predicted Trump will win again in 2020. Like... does anyone genuinely think he's losing at this juncture? Is he a bit like the legendary Bardtown, of whom I've heard but predated my posting on the site? Bardtown was the danglars of the UK thread. Not as bad as kickboxer at all, and determined to keep arguing when there was 20 people telling him he was wrong. | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On July 12 2018 23:28 Jockmcplop wrote: Bardtown was the danglars of the UK thread. Not as bad as kickboxer at all, and determined to keep arguing when there was 20 people telling him he was wrong. Right. Yes, I can see the Danglars comparison ;D | ||
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FreakyDroid
Macedonia2616 Posts
On July 12 2018 22:00 Sent. wrote: Was it the same fast track that was used by countries that joined in 2004? I find it hard to believe Yugoslavia had a chance to join the union years before Czechia. I dont know anything about how countries joined in 2004, so I cant say it was the same or different. Probably different due to the fact that in the early 1990's the political landscape was vastly different than in the mid 2000's especially within Eastern European countries. Czechia couldn't have been offered to join EU before 1993 when the breakup happened, unless you meant Czechoslovakia. The offer/deal Yugoslavia got was in 1991. | ||
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CoughingHydra
177 Posts
On July 11 2018 06:53 Ingvar wrote: ... Let's see: Yugoslavia was initially ruled by Serbian dynasty, Serbs formed the biggest ethnic group in Yugoslavia, Serbian (or whatever you prefer to call it) language was lingua franca in Yugoslavia, Serbs formed the majority in JNA - this clearly shows there is no connection between Yugoslavia and Serbia as national entities) ... From what I understood Big J didn't claim that there is no connection between Serbian and Yugoslavian identity, but rather that they are not equal... On July 12 2018 09:11 FreakyDroid wrote: At the time of the breakup, all Yugoslavia's republics were offered in secret meetings which were held in Vienna and Belgrade to join EU and NATO but as a package (all or none basically), 1-2 republics refused thinking they can salvage the situation and keep Yugoslavia going. There was a documentary recently about this and former top officials from Yugoslavia who were at those meetings talked about it. I think that was the first time we as a public found out about it as well. If those people weren't universally dumb back then, we'd all be way better off now and perhaps all the atrocities wouldn't have happened... On July 12 2018 19:15 FreakyDroid wrote: I tried finding this documentary on youtube, but so far no luck. If I do, I'll post the link to it. Edit: an article that talks about it, though in Serbian, hopefully you can udnerstand it or at least use google translate. https://www.blic.rs/vesti/politika/zasto-je-bivsa-sfrj-odbila-ponudu-za-brzi-ulazak-u-eu-i-5-milijardi-pomoci-a-sta-su/m339lq6 In short, they were offered a sweet deal: fast track EU membership and 5 billion dollars. Instead we got potatoes and a bloody war. Seems we picked the right path. :D I heard of something similar a long time ago (i.e. more than 10 years ago) and I am pretty sure it wasn't a particulary secret meeting. I sincerely doubt that entering the European community etc. would be achievable in a very short time span. E.g. according to wiki Estonia applied in 1995 and got in 2004. Yeah - for a much smaller country, both economically and ethincally more homogeneous it took 9 years. Finally, I don't know what's up with the 5 billion dollars deal, sounds like a random number which is also peanuts compared to the ~120 billion dollars GDP which Yugoslavia then had (according to google). Also, seeing the recent events (e.g. Greece crysis) EU countries never seemed so generous with just giving money for free like that, but would rather only lend. Anyway, what I would say what happened is that simply western European countries gave lala land promises trying to de-escalate the situation, and that everyone else at these meetings knew that. | ||
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SoSexy
Italy3725 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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FreakyDroid
Macedonia2616 Posts
On July 13 2018 02:20 CoughingHydra wrote: I heard of something similar a long time ago (i.e. more than 10 years ago) and I am pretty sure it wasn't a particulary secret meeting. I sincerely doubt that entering the European community etc. would be achievable in a very short time span. E.g. according to wiki Estonia applied in 1995 and got in 2004. Yeah - for a much smaller country, both economically and ethincally more homogeneous it took 9 years. Finally, I don't know what's up with the 5 billion dollars deal, sounds like a random number which is also peanuts compared to the ~120 billion dollars GDP which Yugoslavia then had (according to google). Also, seeing the recent events (e.g. Greece crysis) EU countries never seemed so generous with just giving money for free like that, but would rather only lend. Anyway, what I would say what happened is that simply western European countries gave lala land promises trying to de-escalate the situation, and that everyone else at these meetings knew that. Its possible it wasnt a secret meeting, perhaps I miss remember what was said in that interview. According to our and the slovenian presidents, the EU was serious with their offer, but came way too late and the nationalistic rhetoric has taken deep roots among the Yugoslavian republics. But at the end I cant say for sure how serious was the offer, you could be right too. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
![[image loading]](https://www.economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/original-size/images/2016/11/blogs/graphic-detail/20161112_woc159_3.png) | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On July 13 2018 02:26 SoSexy wrote: Kickboxer, I miss you. Sadly what you say is mostly true. Take care irl. which parts were true? (unless it should just be dropped cuz it's not pertinent to the eu thread). mostly what I saw was a lot of nonsense/falsity over the years from 'em, and that last post seemed to be the same (which I didn't bother to fully read). I'm sure some of the statements would be true; but not a high enough % to care about. | ||
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CoughingHydra
177 Posts
On July 13 2018 02:50 FreakyDroid wrote: Its possible it wasnt a secret meeting, perhaps I miss remember what was said in that interview. According to our and the slovenian presidents, the EU was serious with their offer, but came way too late and the nationalistic rhetoric has taken deep roots among the Yugoslavian republics. But at the end I cant say for sure how serious was the offer, you could be right too. I don't know what you meant by secret, or what these interviewed guys meant by that. For me it means that no one except the participants should know about it, that it happened and that they met at all. Which is highly unlikely to happen since we are talking about so many high officials from many different countries/Yu-republics. If people know about the meeting but not the content, I'd say that wasn't a particularly secret meeting... And the rough content (if important at all) in this case would be frankly easy to guess; what else can they talk about except de-escalation? I want to only say that these offers are just missing the whole point. These tabloid news make it seems like the Yugoslavian problem could be solved just like that - enter EU and some peanuts, but as if it was too late. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9252 Posts
On July 13 2018 00:38 FreakyDroid wrote: I dont know anything about how countries joined in 2004, so I cant say it was the same or different. Probably different due to the fact that in the early 1990's the political landscape was vastly different than in the mid 2000's especially within Eastern European countries. Czechia couldn't have been offered to join EU before 1993 when the breakup happened, unless you meant Czechoslovakia. The offer/deal Yugoslavia got was in 1991. I mostly meant that 2004 was the earliest possible date of accession for any eastern European country and that, in my opinion, whatever country with its capital located in Prague would meet the requirements to join the EU faster than (whole) Yugoslavia. I singled out Czechia because it was one of the post-communist countries where things went as well as one could reasonably expect them to go, which leads me to believe no Balkan country could join the union faster. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On July 13 2018 04:33 Sent. wrote: I mostly meant that 2004 was the earliest possible date of accession for any eastern European country and that, in my opinion, whatever country with its capital located in Prague would meet the requirements to join the EU faster than (whole) Yugoslavia. I singled out Czechia because it was one of the post-communist countries where things went as well as one could reasonably expect them to go, which leads me to believe no Balkan country could join the union faster. To be fair, Slovenia did better than us in many respect (despite not entering the EU sooner), but I don't actually know much about their history. As for Czech Republic itself, I think we could have progressed faster from purely technical standpoint. I only don't know how that could have been actually achieved - the problem wasn't really the economy, that kicked in super fast, the problem was poor governance of the transition when immense wealth was stolen under direct supervision of the governments. So maybe if we got into a program where we would be closely guided by the EU, we could have reached it much faster - the question would be if that would have been accepted by the citizens who were weary after decades of totality. | ||
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FreakyDroid
Macedonia2616 Posts
On July 13 2018 03:57 CoughingHydra wrote: I don't know what you meant by secret, or what these interviewed guys meant by that. For me it means that no one except the participants should know about it, that it happened and that they met at all. Which is highly unlikely to happen since we are talking about so many high officials from many different countries/Yu-republics. If people know about the meeting but not the content, I'd say that wasn't a particularly secret meeting... And the rough content (if important at all) in this case would be frankly easy to guess; what else can they talk about except de-escalation? I want to only say that these offers are just missing the whole point. These tabloid news make it seems like the Yugoslavian problem could be solved just like that - enter EU and some peanuts, but as if it was too late. That's what was reported man, it was said that its secret and we found out about it in 2007 from a book our ex President Gligorov wrote, which was between 3 EU officials and the then presidents of all YU republics. The story has been corroborated by others as well and one of the most vocal ones was the ex Slovenian President Kukic. I guess they meant secret, as in, the public didn't know and I remember when the story broke that year people were very surprised. Now if was top secret or little secret or I dont know how secret-y, I dont know that. Now whether they were thinking the problem could have been solved like that, I dont know man, Im simply stating what was revealed, I dont have an opinion about it myself. These kind of what if's scenarios can get pretty conspiratorial, so I stay away from stuff like that... | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On July 13 2018 03:22 zlefin wrote: which parts were true? (unless it should just be dropped cuz it's not pertinent to the eu thread). mostly what I saw was a lot of nonsense/falsity over the years from 'em, and that last post seemed to be the same (which I didn't bother to fully read). I'm sure some of the statements would be true; but not a high enough % to care about. And martyring. Don't forget the martyring. Kickboxer just loves to nail himself up on that cross. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9733 Posts
On July 13 2018 03:15 Nyxisto wrote: the funniest thing about that insane rant on the last page is that everybody here is apparently a Marxist. If supporting Clinton makes you a left-wing radical I have bad news for the future of right-wing populism in Europe The guy bought the whole Jordan Peterson spiel hook, line and sinker. The giveaway was when he was talking about marxism in academia. He doesn't realize that its all an insane paranoid fantasy. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10811 Posts
He basically represents everything that is wrong with the Peterson fanboys, for some reason they love to take his bad/weird stuff instead of the reasonable points he actually has.. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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