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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. | ||
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SoSexy
Italy3725 Posts
On June 19 2018 20:39 mahrgell wrote: On first sight I would have bet that is Napoli! Napoli had a problem when the whole trash system went nuts. This is standard life for romas, who pillage everything in order to scavenge copper and other stuff. It's a problem that cannot be solved anymore. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18220 Posts
On June 19 2018 20:39 mahrgell wrote: On first sight I would have bet that is Napoli! Or selective photography. You come by my street on a Thursday evening and it looks a bit like that. But then garbage collection comes by and on Friday morning my street is clean again. So yeah, some further explanation is required as to why this is a Roma problem. | ||
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SoSexy
Italy3725 Posts
When I was deployed as a Liaison officer in Kosovo, the CIMIC (civilian and military cooperation) helped plan and contact organisations which could gather resources needed to build 4 houses for gypsy families living in absolute poverty. The children wore tattered rags and the parents were also in a sorry state. We're talking about 30 people. Neither the Kosovo Albanians nor the Kosovo Serbs wanted to have anything to do with them. Notwithstanding, the project was carried out and all houses were constructed and completely furnished with a kitchen, bathroom, washing machine, TV and all essentials for a normal household. The families gladly moved in. Or so it was our initial impression... Not even a week after, all 4 houses were completely stripped of electrical appliances, and anything else that could be unhooked and carried away to be sold for scraps. So, the families took continued to live in tents, but now with a lot of cash You will deny it, but it's in their nature. No other groups want to live like that - chinese people, middle-eastern, african... there are no other groups who use their children as beggars and are content with this kind of living. But now the problem can't be solved anymore, it's too late. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18220 Posts
On June 19 2018 20:48 SoSexy wrote: Are you serious Acrofales? You can check out any roma camp in all of Europe and it will have the same problems. Selective photography...is Lunik IX selective photography too? I've been to Kosice. My friends there weren't very happy with the Roma in Lunik. Here in Barcelona they are infamous in the La Mina neighbourhood. But really, the main problem is poverty. You think they *want* to live in a garbage dump? Nvm, apparently you do think that. Clearly they trashed the houses because they *want* to live in squalor. And not for some underlying reason. People reject ready-made solutions by some organization/government all the time, because they either don't know how to cope or because it simply isn't practical. Let me guess, people from Favelas in Rio also *want* to live in self-made huts halfway up a mountain, rather than actual homes, because when the government forcefully moved lots of them to housing projects they also refused to leave. Or maybe there is something else at work? | ||
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SoSexy
Italy3725 Posts
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VHbb
692 Posts
He is the "Captain", and they follow him no matter what. I'm wondering how the voting base of M5S will react while he escalates (now it's Rom, tomorrow who knows), since they don't seem to share such strong views on this matter. All in all, it's quite terrifying. | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On June 19 2018 21:06 SoSexy wrote: There is not a single minority who lives in these conditions to this day - why don't chinese immigrants set up camps? African? Vietnamese? Albanian? If it were a matter of poverty we ought to see more people do it. They're the only ones. I know very very little about the Roma. Could you explain to a neophyte why they do this? It does seem odd that they'd strip their own homes to the bones. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 19 2018 23:28 iamthedave wrote: I know very very little about the Roma. Could you explain to a neophyte why they do this? It does seem odd that they'd strip their own homes to the bones. The practice of gutting their home is not unique to the Roma. It happens in low income housing and with homes that are being repossessed. My wife worked in housing counseling. Being homeless is a constant battle for stability. Being provided with long term housing out of no place is sometimes to much for people who have been chronically homeless. They don’t see it has a stable living environment, but something that can be taken away at any moment. It isn’t stability, but being under the control of whoever controls the housing. But money can be taken with them and represents stability they control. This isn’t to justify stripping the house, only to explain the thought process. Getting people out of homelessness is a huge challenge, especially if they have been homeless for a long time. | ||
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sc-darkness
856 Posts
On June 19 2018 06:31 IgnE wrote: how do you know "most of them" abuse the welfare system? For the same reason you know how many states the US has, what is grown in each state, how they differ, etc. In other words, knowing your country well enough. The only thing I can't tell you about is if Roma people behave differently in other countries. | ||
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KlaCkoN
Sweden1661 Posts
On June 19 2018 11:33 IgnE wrote: Well take the tradition of arranged child marriage. Why do the Roma insist on still continuing this practice, despite civil laws against it and despite some girls running away from their families? Because without this practice, the Roma themselves will be dispersed into the majority. They will cease to exist. What should the authorities do when a 13-year-old girl comes to them asking for protection from her brothers and uncles? Is this a matter of being "abused" for not integrating well enough? Or is this a matter of refusal to integrate? For that matter, is a naked Romani "blackened" or otherwise marked by race? How do you tell a Roma without the dress and customs with which they adorn themselves? My point here is merely that your "no wonder the Roma don't assimilate or try to integrate" is so detached from the real problems at issue. This seems to me me like a very American conception of race. Ethnic strife in Europe has always been about a whole lot more than whether or not your skin is white. I don't know very much about the Roma thoigh so I am weary of making any sweeping statements about their integration into soceity. If you have read any deeper analysis feel free to share. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On June 20 2018 02:02 sc-darkness wrote: For the same reason you know how many states the US has, what is grown in each state, how they differ, etc. In other words, knowing your country well enough. The only thing I can't tell you about is if Roma people behave differently in other countries. i can point to authoritative references documenting how many states there are. i can travel to them all. can you point to an authoritative reference on "most of them" abusing the welfsre system? or what constitutes abuse? | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6266 Posts
On June 19 2018 23:42 Plansix wrote: The practice of gutting their home is not unique to the Roma. It happens in low income housing and with homes that are being repossessed. My wife worked in housing counseling. Being homeless is a constant battle for stability. Being provided with long term housing out of no place is sometimes to much for people who have been chronically homeless. They don’t see it has a stable living environment, but something that can be taken away at any moment. It isn’t stability, but being under the control of whoever controls the housing. But money can be taken with them and represents stability they control. This isn’t to justify stripping the house, only to explain the thought process. Getting people out of homelessness is a huge challenge, especially if they have been homeless for a long time. Thanks. Good post. Never looked at it that way but it makes a lot of sense. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 20 2018 04:21 RvB wrote: Thanks. Good post. Never looked at it that way but it makes a lot of sense. A lot of well intentioned people do things they believe are helpful, but don’t really address the root of the problem. It is like feeding a starving person really rich food just because it is what you have on hand. Helping homeless people is about long term solutions, stability on their terms and to some extent attrition. By attrition I mean that your efforts will fail or only do tiny amounts of good. But my limited experience helping homeless people is they can’t take the risk of trusting people. Especially homeless teenagers. Of course there are other factors at play to what we are discussing in the thread, but I’m sure there is some overlap. But I am sure the people who built those houses for the Roma were well intentioned and let down when they were ruined. But to the some of the Roma moving into those homes, they were something that was too good to be true. And for others it was just a way to trick people into giving them free money on their terms. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14104 Posts
Its an economy issue. Got to do a lot of things even just a little instead of one magic bullet. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On June 19 2018 21:03 Acrofales wrote: I've been to Kosice. My friends there weren't very happy with the Roma in Lunik. Here in Barcelona they are infamous in the La Mina neighbourhood. But really, the main problem is poverty. You think they *want* to live in a garbage dump? Nvm, apparently you do think that. Clearly they trashed the houses because they *want* to live in squalor. And not for some underlying reason. People reject ready-made solutions by some organization/government all the time, because they either don't know how to cope or because it simply isn't practical. Let me guess, people from Favelas in Rio also *want* to live in self-made huts halfway up a mountain, rather than actual homes, because when the government forcefully moved lots of them to housing projects they also refused to leave. Or maybe there is something else at work? Okay, i have to ask here, do you actually believe what you're saying here, or are you just offended by SoSexys point and just made up some stuff so you can stick it to him? Poverty obviously is a problem, but not a problem specifically to Romanis, yet they're the only one literally turning their neighbourhoods into a garbage dump. From experience. I'm born in a city called Essen, suburb Altenessen, one of the most multicultural parts of germany. We got lebanese, turks, italians, syrians, afghans, indians, polish, russians, all kinds of different arabs amongst germans (and that's just the ethnicities of which i know people personally). There's one particular street in Altenessen where Romani families moved in, and the entire street constantly looks like a fucking dump. You can actually see it in the satellite view of google even (check Gladbecker Str. 305, look behind the house via satellite, and then check streetview to see what it looked like before). And it's just that one particular street that looks like that. Even the refugee camps are glistening in comparison. It gets cleaned by the city council once every two weeks, on tax payer monies. It's not like you said that they want to live in a trash can, it's that they don't care if they do. For example, they stand in front of our recycling center, stopping people who drive in and ask if they can have the stuff. Fine, that's annoying, but sure, why not. The problem here is, the stuff they get, they take "home", strip metals etc out, and literally throw it out the window into the backyard where it piles up. That's what happened in Altenessen and i bet you any money, that happens everywhere and wasn't just a singular event tied to that specific family. I'm on vacation in rome end of august, and every single forum i visited in regards to "do and don't's" made clear to keep roma kids away from you and shout "va via" (piss off or something?) so other people get warned too. That aggressive begging and child-pickpockets are typical for Romani, not just in italy, france or germany but everywhere. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On June 20 2018 02:02 sc-darkness wrote: For the same reason you know how many states the US has, what is grown in each state, how they differ, etc. In other words, knowing your country well enough. The only thing I can't tell you about is if Roma people behave differently in other countries. Do you have a sourced statistic for the number of Romani people that abuse welfare in your country, for example? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 20 2018 09:08 IgnE wrote: Plan "Ecclesiastes" Six: there is nothing new under the sun; everything is the same as everything else Homeless people have existed for all of written history. There is nothing new about the issues we are discussing now. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On June 20 2018 09:19 Plansix wrote: Homeless people have existed for all of written history. There is nothing new about the issues we are discussing now. oh jesus christ learn to qualify yourself. how do you get up in the morning if every day is the same | ||
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