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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On June 19 2018 03:23 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2018 03:17 zlefin wrote:On June 19 2018 03:00 sc-darkness wrote:On June 19 2018 02:57 Plansix wrote:
And people wonder why the Roma don’t assimilate or try to integrate with the national culture. They seem to be unaware of the century or more of history of that not working out for the Roma. Do you know why Romani people's integration doesn't work in my country? Because politicians want them to be unemployed and dumb. In return, they make a lot of children to abuse the welfare system. How does that help politicians? Dumb voters means easy targets.  that doesn't follow as an argument; shall I assume that due to the " " you were being one of those comedic ones (not sure which one)? I don't feel the need to explain myself. No comedy; it's a serious post despite emoticon. If you have something to add, then so be it.
ok; hard to tell what with poe's law and all;
it doesn't seem to follow at all as an argument; for one: whether or not someone's integrated doesn't seem to affect whether they're idiots. do you have something to indicate to the contrary?
and how would being unemployed and dumb interfere with integration?
mostly it seems like a non sequitur; maybe you need to add some intermediate steps for it to make sense.
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On June 19 2018 03:36 Artisreal wrote:sc-darkness, you're a fascinating poster. I'm rather curious how you reconcile these two posts Show nested quote +On June 19 2018 03:00 sc-darkness wrote:On June 19 2018 02:57 Plansix wrote:
And people wonder why the Roma don’t assimilate or try to integrate with the national culture. They seem to be unaware of the century or more of history of that not working out for the Roma. Do you know why Romani people's integration doesn't work in my country? Because politicians want them to be unemployed and dumb. In return, they make a lot of children to abuse the welfare system. How does that help politicians? Dumb voters means easy targets. You complain about welfare abuse in the one and then tell us that the state is discriminating against them so they have to do what you complained about to survive. If we simplify like that you see the culprit in the victim. Which feels rather consistent with your posting but I'm stll curious what exactly made you post the former when knowing about the latter?
The two posts can coexist without contradiction. You said it yourself - they have to do it to survive. Could things be improved? Yes. I don't think there's much else to say. You just need to know a thing or two about logical thinking.
On June 19 2018 03:44 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2018 03:23 sc-darkness wrote:On June 19 2018 03:17 zlefin wrote:On June 19 2018 03:00 sc-darkness wrote:On June 19 2018 02:57 Plansix wrote:
And people wonder why the Roma don’t assimilate or try to integrate with the national culture. They seem to be unaware of the century or more of history of that not working out for the Roma. Do you know why Romani people's integration doesn't work in my country? Because politicians want them to be unemployed and dumb. In return, they make a lot of children to abuse the welfare system. How does that help politicians? Dumb voters means easy targets. that doesn't follow as an argument; shall I assume that due to the " " you were being one of those comedic ones (not sure which one)? I don't feel the need to explain myself. No comedy; it's a serious post despite emoticon. If you have something to add, then so be it. ok; hard to tell what with poe's law and all; it doesn't seem to follow at all as an argument; for one: whether or not someone's integrated doesn't seem to affect whether they're idiots. do you have something to indicate to the contrary? and how would being unemployed and dumb interfere with integration? mostly it seems like a non sequitur; maybe you need to add some intermediate steps for it to make sense.
They're bribed more easily to vote. They believe in lies more easily, which happens a lot. E.g. certain ethnicity party tells them some nationalist party X hates them. It's a reality whether you believe it or not. I'm sure you can find something on Google if you're interested.
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I can find anything on google, including plenty of nonsense that's not true, so you'll need something a bit more specific to point to.
I'm not clear how your points have anything to do with what I asked for clarification on.
and even if they do, they're quite vague, and incomplete, can you point to a more substantive source?
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On June 19 2018 04:48 zlefin wrote:
I can find anything on google, including plenty of nonsense that's not true, so you'll need something a bit more specific to point to.
I'm not clear how your points have anything to do with what I asked for clarification on.
and even if they do, they're quite vague, and incomplete, can you point to a more substantive source?
I don't think this thread has been kind enough for me to spend more time to justify my points in detail, so you'll have to go with short posts. You don't have to read them if you don't like them. So, I'll just leave you a few links to defend my previous post about Roma people being easy targets due to lack of education, integration, job, motivating voters when there's a nationalist party (political gain when there is division), etc.
No integration & nationalist party motivation: https://www.novinite.com/articles/132881/Bulgaria's Ethnic Party Addresses Roma Constituency in Turkish
Voting fraud/politicians abusing weak voters (translated via Google): https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=bg&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.paragraph22.bg/22-novini/read/222-cigani-registrirani-na-edin-adres-v-ustovo&edit-text=
There are many more examples, but it takes time to find source in English. It's much easier to find them in local language.
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On June 19 2018 06:01 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2018 04:48 zlefin wrote:
I can find anything on google, including plenty of nonsense that's not true, so you'll need something a bit more specific to point to.
I'm not clear how your points have anything to do with what I asked for clarification on.
and even if they do, they're quite vague, and incomplete, can you point to a more substantive source? I don't think this thread has been kind enough for me to spend more time to justify my points in detail, so you'll have to go with short posts. You don't have to read them if you don't like them. So, I'll just leave you a few links to defend my previous post about Roma people being easy targets due to lack of education, integration, job, motivating voters when there's a nationalist party (political gain when there is division), etc. No integration & nationalist party motivation: https://www.novinite.com/articles/132881/Bulgaria's Ethnic Party Addresses Roma Constituency in TurkishVoting fraud/politicians abusing weak voters (translated via Google): https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=bg&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.paragraph22.bg/22-novini/read/222-cigani-registrirani-na-edin-adres-v-ustovo&edit-text=There are many more examples, but it takes time to find source in English. It's much easier to find them in local language.
Ok, but if they're short posts I may of course simply discard them as being unsourced nonsense.
this does not demonstrate that they couldn't do the same (or a comparable) thing with integrated voters.
so it seems like you don't understand the point I was making/contesting, and thus are unable to clarify it. hmm, I can't explain my question/dispute any better (at least not without spending a large amount of effort, which I deem not worth it as you also seem disinterested in putting in large effort), and you don't understand my dispute well enough to address it as is, so there's nothing more that can be done here. I declare an impasse.
on the side matter, personally I think the thread, as a whole, has been fair enough to you; but I see why you don't feel it has been.
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On June 19 2018 02:57 Plansix wrote:
And people wonder why the Roma don’t assimilate or try to integrate with the national culture. They seem to be unaware of the century or more of history of that not working out for the Roma.
so the roma tried to integrate but were rebuffed? which came first, the repression of the roma or their reluctance to give up their "way of life?"
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On June 19 2018 02:43 sc-darkness wrote:Not a big fan of Romani people because most of them abuse welfare system in my country, but they're not that many in Italy so that's a waste of time. I'd say if anyone is worried, it'd be Spain, France and Romania in Europe. Just check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_diaspora#Population_by_country
how do you know "most of them" abuse the welfare system?
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On June 19 2018 06:30 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2018 02:57 Plansix wrote:
And people wonder why the Roma don’t assimilate or try to integrate with the national culture. They seem to be unaware of the century or more of history of that not working out for the Roma. so the roma tried to integrate but were rebuffed? which came first, the repression of the roma or their reluctance to give up their "way of life?"
Does it it really matter who threw the first stone? How many minority populations have tried to integrate only to be expelled or abused for not integrating well enough? The Roma might just be ahead of the curve.
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On June 19 2018 06:41 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2018 06:30 IgnE wrote:On June 19 2018 02:57 Plansix wrote:
And people wonder why the Roma don’t assimilate or try to integrate with the national culture. They seem to be unaware of the century or more of history of that not working out for the Roma. so the roma tried to integrate but were rebuffed? which came first, the repression of the roma or their reluctance to give up their "way of life?" Does it it really matter who threw the first stone? How many minority populations have tried to integrate only to be expelled or abused for not integrating well enough? The Roma might just be ahead of the curve.
Well take the tradition of arranged child marriage. Why do the Roma insist on still continuing this practice, despite civil laws against it and despite some girls running away from their families? Because without this practice, the Roma themselves will be dispersed into the majority. They will cease to exist. What should the authorities do when a 13-year-old girl comes to them asking for protection from her brothers and uncles? Is this a matter of being "abused" for not integrating well enough? Or is this a matter of refusal to integrate?
For that matter, is a naked Romani "blackened" or otherwise marked by race? How do you tell a Roma without the dress and customs with which they adorn themselves? My point here is merely that your "no wonder the Roma don't assimilate or try to integrate" is so detached from the real problems at issue.
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On June 19 2018 11:33 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2018 06:41 Plansix wrote:On June 19 2018 06:30 IgnE wrote:On June 19 2018 02:57 Plansix wrote:
And people wonder why the Roma don’t assimilate or try to integrate with the national culture. They seem to be unaware of the century or more of history of that not working out for the Roma. so the roma tried to integrate but were rebuffed? which came first, the repression of the roma or their reluctance to give up their "way of life?" Does it it really matter who threw the first stone? How many minority populations have tried to integrate only to be expelled or abused for not integrating well enough? The Roma might just be ahead of the curve. Well take the tradition of arranged child marriage. Why do the Roma insist on still continuing this practice, despite civil laws against it and despite some girls running away from their families? Because without this practice, the Roma themselves will be dispersed into the majority. They will cease to exist. What should the authorities do when a 13-year-old girl comes to them asking for protection from her brothers and uncles? Is this a matter of being "abused" for not integrating well enough? Or is this a matter of refusal to integrate? For that matter, is a naked Romani "blackened" or otherwise marked by race? How do you tell a Roma without the dress and customs with which they adorn themselves? My point here is merely that your "no wonder the Roma don't assimilate or try to integrate" is so detached from the real problems at issue.
These are all critiques that valid and should be addressed. But creating a registry under right wing, anti immigrant government might not be the place to start.
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Yeah ok, but you aren't helping either.
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On June 19 2018 11:48 IgnE wrote:
Yeah ok, but you aren't helping either.
Any specific shortcomings in the culture can be found in Christian communities in the US. Or any other insular community. But it won’t matter because right right governments us gypsies to test what they can get away with. It’s hard to critique a culture when ours has so much front facing rot.
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On June 19 2018 12:08 Plansix wrote:Any specific shortcomings in the culture can be found in Christian communities in the US. Or any other insular community. But it won’t matter because right right governments us gypsies to test what they can get away with. It’s hard to critique a culture when ours has so much front facing rot.
No. Specific shortcomings in the culture are specific to the Romani. You can try to analogize to Christian communities in the US, but I don't see you making any arguments along the lines of "well no wonder those Mormon bigamists aren't integrating into American culture given how we treat them," do I?
What's an "insular community?" What's not an "insular community?"
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On June 19 2018 12:19 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2018 12:08 Plansix wrote:On June 19 2018 11:48 IgnE wrote:
Yeah ok, but you aren't helping either. Any specific shortcomings in the culture can be found in Christian communities in the US. Or any other insular community. But it won’t matter because right right governments us gypsies to test what they can get away with. It’s hard to critique a culture when ours has so much front facing rot. No. Specific shortcomings in the culture are specific to the Romani. You can try to analogize to Christian communities in the US, but I don't see you making any arguments along the lines of "well no wonder those Mormon bigamists aren't integrating into American culture given how we treat them," do I? What's an "insular community?" What's not an "insular community?"
Are you not aware of what a US Christian commune is? The cult like communities that form around some church figures or communities. Because they like arrainged marriage and keeping that age of consent real low.
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There surely are troubles within Roma communities, I don't really understand how that justifies using them as a political scapegoat though
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On June 19 2018 12:49 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2018 12:19 IgnE wrote:On June 19 2018 12:08 Plansix wrote:On June 19 2018 11:48 IgnE wrote:
Yeah ok, but you aren't helping either. Any specific shortcomings in the culture can be found in Christian communities in the US. Or any other insular community. But it won’t matter because right right governments us gypsies to test what they can get away with. It’s hard to critique a culture when ours has so much front facing rot. No. Specific shortcomings in the culture are specific to the Romani. You can try to analogize to Christian communities in the US, but I don't see you making any arguments along the lines of "well no wonder those Mormon bigamists aren't integrating into American culture given how we treat them," do I? What's an "insular community?" What's not an "insular community?" Are you not aware of what a US Christian commune is? The cult like communities that form around some church figures or communities. Because they like arrainged marriage and keeping that age of consent real low.
Are you talking about Waco? That cult the FBI burned? Is there some widespread Christian cult phenomenon?
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On June 19 2018 11:33 IgnE wrote:
For that matter, is a naked Romani "blackened" or otherwise marked by race? How do you tell a Roma without the dress and customs with which they adorn themselves? My point here is merely that your "no wonder the Roma don't assimilate or try to integrate" is so detached from the real problems at issue.
Yes, in my country integrated Romani people that dress 'normal' are easily recognized as being Roma by their skin colour and hair, and there is a lot of prejudice towards them.
On June 19 2018 06:30 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2018 02:57 Plansix wrote:
And people wonder why the Roma don’t assimilate or try to integrate with the national culture. They seem to be unaware of the century or more of history of that not working out for the Roma. so the roma tried to integrate but were rebuffed? which came first, the repression of the roma or their reluctance to give up their "way of life?"
Possibly the former, there is no undeniable consensus because they kept no written records but the main working theory is that proto-Romani people (Rom, Dom, Lom) were disadvantaged tribes of low caste in medieval India.
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On June 19 2018 06:41 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2018 06:30 IgnE wrote:On June 19 2018 02:57 Plansix wrote:
And people wonder why the Roma don’t assimilate or try to integrate with the national culture. They seem to be unaware of the century or more of history of that not working out for the Roma. so the roma tried to integrate but were rebuffed? which came first, the repression of the roma or their reluctance to give up their "way of life?" Does it it really matter who threw the first stone? How many minority populations have tried to integrate only to be expelled or abused for not integrating well enough? The Roma might just be ahead of the curve.
Thats not actualy true in regards to Roma, they are present in many European countries and well integrated in none (that i know of). Multiple states made many atatempts at integration and failed. The main reason (i think) is that they refuse to send their kids to school or force them out very early and super early arranged marriages mentioned above. There is also the practice of forcing kids to work.
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On first sight I would have bet that is Napoli!
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EPT
