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On November 29 2006 01:15 Dametri wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2006 01:11 travis wrote:
Permanence.
I think whatever might be buddhist or think along those lines. As do I(think along those lines, that is.. I am not buddhist.) If you're talking about nirvana or a state of supreme enlightenment, I wish you luck. For myself and much of the world, I believe less lofty expectations are in order.
No, I have not been persuaded that is attainable. And there is much of buddhism I am in disagreement with. I was just guessing that this was his line of thinking.
prolly shoulda just kept my big mouth shut
Show nested quote +On November 29 2006 01:12 travis wrote:
Mere existence has to have a state or else it is not. 
To face reality one must exist. To exist one must have a state. He is saying that the state in which one exists but does not suffer is true happiness.
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On November 29 2006 01:12 travis wrote:
To face reality much one exist. To exist one must have a state. He is saying that the state in which one exists but does not suffer is true happiness.
Yepyepyep
I'm sure that I didn't make myself very clear. What I meant is that facing an arbitrarily defined 'reality' while avoiding suffering doesn't seem like much of a definition of happiness to me; it seems like a state in which one is merely existing. There are plenty of knowledgable people whose minds are open and their wrists unslit - yet would I call all of them happy? Probably not. I don't think the presence of knowledge/openmindedness and the absence of suffering is enough to define happiness.
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what about you Dametri , how do you define happiness?
On November 29 2006 01:11 travis wrote:
I think whatever might be buddhist or think along those lines. As do I(think along those lines, that is.. I am not buddhist.)
I do have read buddhist texts, but then the word reincarnation appears and I think you know what happens
On November 29 2006 01:41 intrigue wrote:
if you have a problem with what i said, please state it outright. there's no need to try to make me look stupid by pointing out an obvious typo. i'm not going to correct that out of spite, fuck you =(.
my english not 100%, I really didnt get it at first
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On November 29 2006 02:00 whatever wrote:
I do have read buddhist texts, but then the word reincarnation appears and I think you know what happens
you should consider being more openminded about it 
very unsure, myself
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On November 29 2006 02:00 whatever wrote:
what about you Dametri , how do you define happiness?
hap‧pi‧ness /ˈhæpinɪs/ - [hap-ee-nis]
–noun
1. the quality or state of being happy.
I win at life
Edit: Nyeh.
No, seriously.. I believe that happiness is a state in which joy and/or euphoria aren't necessarily constant, but in which a person is able to become joyous or euphoric with relative ease. Laughter comes more easily to a happy person; a happy person has a reason to get up in the morning (or whenever they rise) and is able to overcome minor problems without having them impact their day.
Of course, that's just my version of it. I don't think anyone has the same definition of happiness; perhaps some people would be truly happy only existing without suffering.
I doubt it, though. They might be happy only existing if their previous situation was dire - but I don't think it can last.
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On November 29 2006 01:50 Dametri wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2006 01:12 travis wrote:
To face reality much one exist. To exist one must have a state. He is saying that the state in which one exists but does not suffer is true happiness. Yepyepyep I'm sure that I didn't make myself very clear. What I meant is that facing an arbitrarily defined 'reality' while avoiding suffering doesn't seem like much of a definition of happiness to me; it seems like a state in which one is merely existing. There are plenty of knowledgable people whose minds are open and their wrists unslit - yet would I call all of them happy? Probably not. I don't think the presence of knowledge/openmindedness and the absence of suffering is enough to define happiness.
At this point humanity is poorly equipped linguistically when it comes to talking about this sort of stuff.
But have you never been doing something, most likely something you generally enjoy, and lose yourself in it?
Have you ever been doing this thing and then 15 minutes later realize you were totally in a rhythm. You were doing great at whatever it was and you felt fantastic during it even though you can't remember exactly how it felt because you weren't aware of your self at the time?
Maybe you get what I mean. I believe this could be an example of what he is talking about, or at least a level of it.
err I am gonna go to bed, kinda getting tired and I can't think very well.
feels like my thoughts are contradicting theirselves alot even though i've sorted out this stuff in my head on multiple occasions before.
anyways, enjoyed this
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On November 29 2006 02:13 travis wrote:
err I am gonna go to bed, kinda getting tired and I can't think very well.
feels like my thoughts are contradicting theirselves alot even though i've sorted out this stuff in my head on multiple occasions before.
Hate that feeling
Feels like you should know the 'answer' so well and so intimately, but your mind feels all wobbly and your logic threads just snap in half.
The good part is that you'll wake up with a clearer picture.
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Whenever I immerse myself in such dissociative thought for too long, I begin doubting everything around me, and if it gets out of hand, can actually physically disorient me for a few moments.
I'll usually grab something with my hand and stare at it for a few seconds to snap out of it. I made a big post about it like a year or 2 ago, wondering if anybody else experienced this sort of thing. I've been able to do it since I was like 10 or 11.
It sort of makes me uncomfortable doing it, like I'm going crazy, so I stopped doing it.
Interestingly, I can't dissociate myself from my surroundings when there is too much distinctive ambient noises, like if a television is on, etc. Anyways, good posts in the thread so far.
At this point humanity is poorly equipped linguistically when it comes to talking about this sort of stuff.
Hey hey now! Just because you can't express yourself well at 2am, doesn't mean that the limits of linguistics have been reached :p 
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We're all robots, only a few of us recognise this and a small part of this few change..
Read Robert A. Wilson - Prometheus Rising("Illuminatus!"-Trilogy, some parts of the book are about society and people), it is about how our mind works and how we can change.
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haha I actually posted an essay on this :p
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?currentpage=1&topic_id=43981
My belief:
1. Happiness is not constant, happiness is the change.
2. You get happy when you expect but unsure if something will arrive, but it does.
3. When you aquire this unsure goodness, you become happy
4. You must keep aquiring new unsure goodness to continue to be happy
May I draw a concepts from one of my favorite book, Siddhartha...
"It is no good trying to decept reality. All are perceptoins, you are me and I am you. Nirvana is breaking of perceptions for the ultimate truth, but you can never attain it. Since you live in the world of perception, you might as well love the world you live in. The rock, the grass and the sky they are all the same dream, if they are indeed dream. They are all real, if they are indeed real. You are part of the world, and the world part of you. Love it."
If there is trouble and you lose your marble
Sit down in room and bring a cartboard
Trust your feelings be transferable
Draw on the cartboard with your hand's draw
Draw all your troubles on more and more
Believe all trouble transferable
Burn the cartboard and watch fire roar
Trouble burned transferable
Flames soar trouble transferable
Toast a S'mores and where is trouble?!
haha lol funny poem :p I must be very drowsy...
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Robots. Spot on. None of us is unique in any way. We're just robots following patterns, restricted by our own lack of imagination. Maybe education is actually at fault? Is it anything more then teaching of set patterns, teaching us to improve our lives by limiting our thinking to easily recognizable algorithms?
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On November 29 2006 04:04 Sfydjklm wrote:
Robots. Spot on. None of us is unique in any way. We're just robots following patterns, restricted by our own lack of imagination. Maybe education is actually at fault? Is it anything more then teaching of set patterns, teaching us to improve our lives by limiting our thinking to easily recognizable algorithms?
God I like to see you live a day with out patterns.
You'd die in 2 minutes of existence :p
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On November 29 2006 04:04 Sfydjklm wrote:
Robots. Spot on. None of us is unique in any way. We're just robots following patterns, restricted by our own lack of imagination. Maybe education is actually at fault? Is it anything more then teaching of set patterns, teaching us to improve our lives by limiting our thinking to easily recognizable algorithms?
That's true.
But patterns help us from "re-inventing the wheel" in everything we do. Efficiency versus creativity?
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Belgium8305 Posts
On November 29 2006 01:41 intrigue wrote:
i said it was a respectable trait, the 'bullshit' part pertains more to how it's stressed so blindly. every time someone asks 'how do i become happy?' they get the same set of answers, basically the things i listed in that paragraph. but some people can't help but have insecurities or troubles about others and worry, while others just can, it comes naturally. it's really not a weakness or a fault, if it's the way you are, why not just accept it? why is it considered shallow to have such a basic human social concern? how real someone is doesn't lie in their possession of any of those qualities at all, and to try to blindly lie to yourself about something like that is really stupid.
But why would it be wrong for a person who, as you say, naturally has insecurities and troubles concerning others (and I think this is inherent to everyone who was raised in a society like this one and who isn't a sociopath) to realise that it is, in fact, pointless and almost absurd to worry about these kinds of things when you could just as easily make a conscious effort to ignore them and suffer, practically speaking, no negative consequences?
Hm, that's probably one of the longest sentences I've ever written. I'll try to clarify with an example. Earlier you mentioned the "dance like nobody's watching" thing. I figure that at a party, people (who are social creatures) naturally worry about how they will be perceived by others when they dance and thus conform to a 'standardized' way of dancing to avoid ridicule. However, a person could simply realise that, practically speaking, it really doesn't matter what everyone there thinks of him. They're just a bunch of strangers anyway, so who cares about their opinion?
One could say there is in fact a practical objection: these strangers will be less likely to accept you (e.g. you might blow your chances with some random girl). The way I see it, though, is I wouldn't even want to interact with anyone shallow enough to create a bad impression of me based on the way I dance.
On November 29 2006 02:00 whatever wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2006 01:11 travis wrote:
I think whatever might be buddhist or think along those lines. As do I(think along those lines, that is.. I am not buddhist.) I do have read buddhist texts, but then the word reincarnation appears and I think you know what happens
I always frown at the reincarnation thing too (I figure that, logically speaking, when something happens, it should be observable and explainable by science, and there's just no way for something like a transfer of consciousness to happen), but a friend of mine who studies philosophy explained it by saying the concept of reincarnation was often misinterpreted by later buddhists. Apparently, what Buddha meant was that when one reaches nirvana, his mind is constantly reborn and thus completely blank and without preconceived notions.
I think I'm gonna address the OP in a short while, my concentration span is rapidly nearing its end.
E: Okay, I read the OP again and I actually have less to say than I thought I would.
Society is indeed a manmade machine, but it is a necessary construction: the alternative is a state of anarchy and I think Hobbes already explained pretty well why that sucks.
When I see everyone just droning about in the streets, I just think it's sad that most of them simply play their role as a cog in the machine and I understand why so many succumb to depression - it's a pretty bleak existence.
The way I figure it is that all one needs to do is realise that society is just one big necessary construction and that you just do the necessary things to function in that society (you get yourself an education, you don't break the law or at least make sure nobody who would care notices it) and for the rest, you just do whatever it is you do that makes you happy.
Personally, I've been really happy pretty much constantly for the past year and a half or so since I realised there's really no use in worrying about trivial stuff and that existence doesn't have a real point so I can just enjoy being lucky enough to be alive and in a prosperous society (being born here and now is like winning a thousand lotteries). I'm even lucky enough to have a bunch of great, like-minded friends.
So, to answer your question: yeah, there's plenty of people out there who do other things than simply function in society. There are way waaaayyy more that don't, but that's their problem.
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hey speak for yourselves guys. im not a robot. if i was a robot i want to be made from laser resistant metal and have the strength of a hundred men and rockets on my lifeless iron feet.
maybe i am a robot. maybe the corporate government society machine is pulling the wool over my eyes. yo man what do we really know man? is this real man?
thousands of thousands have walked this path before us and many have done a better job expressing their feelings about it. so youre a robot following the path of society too. there are lots of books and movies about this very subject if youre interested in someone else's answers.
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
# travis
nice insight, there is a sharp mind hiding behind that ace..
# Yizuo
will check those books, how much did u like the books? does it have boring parts?
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Australia3818 Posts
On November 28 2006 22:28 evanthebouncy~ wrote:
Man smurg you need to find something simple and sincere to smile at.
Like the grass outside, perhapes.
OMG I saw LS and some silly "emo" post so I automatically thought of smurg!
But it's wow!
How come no way wow ur.....
I'm lost for words...
Right? Well for one I don't really make 'silly emo' posts...I don't really remember when I've made an 'emo' post...except for the one that blatantly took the piss out of emos.
Anyhow. Agustin...I have been thinking about this a lot recently...at least pertaining to the 'world and gears' philosophy.
Throughout my life I've also questioned the world and how it works, perhaps been a little annoyed at how things have worked out. I cast my mind back to ancient/prehistoric times and think about the world had no codified structural order. People just did what they did to survive, that's part of the routine they had to follow...structure/routine is inherent in life, it just happens to be what we do.
Think of it like this metaphor...which I'll try to make sound half-feasible.
Imagine life starts as a dot in a large space. The dot has no worries, no direction, no clue of anything else as it were. Eventually the dot finds another dot...they find more dots, several dots become hundreds...regulation, direction & order is now needed in order for the dots to co-exist.
Essentially it's about regulation...you need regulation or things won't work. It just so happens that 'cultivation' is top of the list so we can better ourselves and fit more into the society that has been created around us.
Imagine society took a different turn from the very beginning...imagine our countries were governed like societies in George Orwell's 1984. It'd change the way society was run in the most extreme of ways. We'd all have to adhere to something, forcibly.
If you look at our society I think it's a lot more liberal than we give it credit for, I mean...we aren't actually forced to do things...we have the element of choice.
What's to say you can't pack up your job/normal life, buy flights to another country...pack a bag...and then travel around picking up small jobs whereever you go to keep you going?
I think it's all about breaking routine, or at least realising you don't have to be a product of your own society. Although with regards to that it seems that I am trying to make out that 'being a product' of your own society is a bad thing. In certain ways it is, because it limits your thought, being 'told' and instructed by other people. However, if you're given options...you can make a choice and unlock your creativity and go down a path that you 'seemingly' have created.
I don't think there is anyway in which we can create a routineless life, as we have to stick to the basics...in order to make money to survive in society. If anyone has read the book The Diceman by Luke Rhinehart, you'll see that questions of 'Can we create a truly routineless person? Going from place to place with different personas, lives & thoughts/motivations.'
I think escaping 'reality'/routine for a while is a good way to broaden your horizons, to help you establish more complex thoughts with regards to society. A lot of this ties in with what I'm doing now, I've been away from Australia for almost 7 months now, and I've been throughout Europe and the UK quite extensively (not extremely extensively, just been from place to place and taken time out to see how they live over there, the differences in culture and all that). Sure that doesn't make me the god of wisdom...but meeting different people and hearing what they have to say makes me think differently.
For example: Canadian girl I met in Austria, she had been travelling for 1.5 years away from home...working in Ireland and travelling throughout Europe a lot and making enough to continue. The 'traveller'. That's what I love about life, you can actually get up and make a change...it's just the societal norm of 'finish highschool, go to university, finish university, get a job...a wife kids, family holidays, go to a fucking old persons home, die.' Sort of mentality. Reminds me of the whole trainspotting thing:
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose a three-piece suite on hire purchase in a range of fucking fabrics. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on Sunday night. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pissing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourselves. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that?
It's fairly accurate in some societies that this is what life becomes, a dull, monostratal existence that doesn't change...you fill it in with small 'norms' and as such get stuck in a rut.
Personal preference is sometimes controlled too, music wise...a lot of kids like the newest bands arriving on the scene because they are on MTV, or on iTunes, or on MySpace...now, they might like the music because they get drummed into listening to the same shit over and over and over again and it begins to emerge that this is in fact the music they now 'like'. Same shit with emos/punks/goths/ they dress in a way that adheres to their musical tastes/way of expressing themselves. Even though it's blatant they're just subject to another trend that has emerged. The fact is it emerged as the result of an individual somewhere rebelling against a broader societal norm.
You can't be completely free from anything, you can't change the world radically unless you truly are allowed to express creativity freely and grow up in an environment where you aren't forced into study/trade/following in your fathers footsteps etc.
This shit happens regularly with regards to girls/women and fashion/their bodies. You have to 'adhere' that's the main fucking message from society...even though you really don't have to adhere. It's just about how you'll be perceived if you don't follow trends. People make fun of people who are different, for example 'emos'...I mean I guess I make fun of people but then again everyone does.
If people didn't accept everything with a grain of salt then the world would be vastly different than what it is.
I think the main issue is that we can't 'openly' live how we want, because society is governed and maintained by a few individuals who can exert any amount of control they want. We think we're more in control than we really are, we can succeed and inside society...but there are millions of curtains that hide things from our view everywhere we go.
It comes down to the intelligence of most people I guess, most people are rational and tend not to question most of the elements of society...instead they might complain about some things, but they don't really make the biggest effort to change it. This would be down to laziness and not for the fact that in the end they really can't change something...I don't think that's even considered.
For us to make a stand it'd be saying "let's get lots of people together and philosophise together to make a change!" which would be doing what everyone else does...and then we'd be branded emos...or we'd all dress like professors and wear glasses and call ourselves 'individuals'.
There are people out there who think differently of society and act differently compared to the greater whole...but in the end...what can you do? I think there is a way, it's just hard to find the way...in the end we're all just meat being lead around by ideas that aren't our own until they are put into our heads...
Most people don't question everything they are given, and lead happy and fulfilled lives within a society that encourages 'normality' but normality is just something that society has created.
Example: Americanisation of cultures. I'm not sure if it'd be dubbed 'the MTV generation' or 'Reality TV' generation...but you see in a lot of cultures (the UK, Australia are two I can personally comment upon) that younger children are growing up with American shows, American slang, American music & the such like which turn them into children of a different culture despite them not even being in the same country.
I guess globalisation/communications are at such a point now, that you can be immersed in another culture without even being part of the country it originated in...
Another example: Korean culture. Here at TL.net we know a fuck load about Korean culture than most other people, we watch vods, we even use Korean symbols (^_^, -_-; and words 'gosu' which is a bit stupid if you think about it...why would we do that? We aren't Korean.
Some people take it too far and start to eat, speak and act Korean...in the case of a friend I have, he's done it the Japanese way. Because of the easy way he could download anime...and access information about Japanese culture...he talks Japanese...eats Japanese...and dresses like-wise...he even like lolita...which is anime kiddy porn. Bizarre you might say...I do indeed.
Anyhow, there are thousands more things to say...but they all lead along the same lines; you cannot escape what is here. Only way we could do that would be to build a space ship, fly to another planet...erase our memory and go from there.
In the end, I think it's not too important to worry...and just live how you feel (as long as it isn't killing other people) because exterminating life is something that I'm happy for society to be against.
Live your own life.
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efficiency = extinction
creativity = evolution
but i think u all missed the point u all bitch about concious (learned , reasoned..) reactions of people in diferent situations this is totaly irelevant because theyr action are pre-learned , thus predictable (this happens mostly out of comodity , 'fit in' reasons..)
i think most intriguing is the unconcious reaction of people in diferent situations and , based on this , one can awaken 'a lost soul' and make it shine
the most fucked up thing is that people this days aways for something to happen that will bring them to life or give some meaning to it the question is : when the moment comes will they have what it takes to rise above theyr miserable existence ? saddly the answer is no
and if they cant do it why let someone else ? its a vicious circle and those that make it (do rise above) pay a dearest price
(i dont care about the spelling i, suck i my native language too but sorry for my grammar )
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Belgium8305 Posts
On November 29 2006 07:33 Smurg wrote:
Anyhow, there are thousands more things to say...but they all lead along the same lines; you cannot escape what is here. Only way we could do that would be to build a space ship, fly to another planet...erase our memory and go from there.
Funny you should say that. What makes you think things would turn out differently if this happened? I think we'd just go through basically the same steps all over again.
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Austin10831 Posts
Maybe society would act linearly, but would you?
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EPT
