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On November 29 2006 00:34 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2006 00:24 travis wrote:On November 29 2006 00:04 Kwark wrote:
They're not all that different from you, chances are all of them have had that thought too. The problem is that most of them dismiss these thoughts and instead choose to be slaves(yes I am using the term loosely) to those with influence. Or choose to just live their lives simply with those they love and be happy. Leave high philosophy to those for whom happiness lies in the abstract. Someone who knows how to be happy and is content when he is happy seems a lot wiser to me.
Then again they do not actually choose it, society has teached them not to question and do what the others do, there is a lot of people walking around that base their decisions on what others think etc.
These people define happines by how society defines it anyway, so they aren´t happy they are just ignoring reality and their own thoughts.
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On November 29 2006 00:43 whatever wrote:
Then again they do not actually choose it, society has teached them not to question and do what the others do, there is a lot of people walking around that base their decisions on what others think etc.
These people define happines by how society defines it anyway, so they aren´t happy they are just ignoring reality and their own thoughts.
Define "true" happiness then?
I think it's foolish to assume that those who follow the crowd and choose not to repeatedly contemplate the harshness and fulness of reality are not "really" happy. Ignorance truly is bliss, after all.
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I don't think anyone should make assumptions about other people, lumping them into the category of 'slaves, robots, sheep, etc.' You will never ever truly know what another person is thinking and feeling, and to assume that you have some sort of soul or character that they don't is a lonely and arrogant outlook in the end... the reason people tend to think, fear, wonder, want, and believe the same things is because we are all people...
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United States44374 Posts
On November 29 2006 00:43 whatever wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2006 00:34 Kwark wrote:On November 29 2006 00:24 travis wrote:On November 29 2006 00:04 Kwark wrote:
They're not all that different from you, chances are all of them have had that thought too. The problem is that most of them dismiss these thoughts and instead choose to be slaves(yes I am using the term loosely) to those with influence. Or choose to just live their lives simply with those they love and be happy. Leave high philosophy to those for whom happiness lies in the abstract. Someone who knows how to be happy and is content when he is happy seems a lot wiser to me. Then again they do not actually choose it, society has teached them not to question and do what the others do, there is a lot of people walking around that base their decisions on what others think etc. These people define happines by how society defines it anyway, so they aren´t happy they are just ignoring reality and their own thoughts.
Erm... If they're society robots they wouldn't consider there was somebody or something that was influencing their lives. It's not that they're brainwashed by society into not questioning it. It's because they don't feel the question is important. And I'm not dismissing philosophy as a subject, I studied it and I loved it. I'm dismissing philosophy the moment you let the abstract get in the way of being happy here and now. Who cares why you're happy, society etc... I feel it's enough to simply be happy. If you search for more beyond the company of friends and the love of family then you'll neglect whats important and ultimately leave yourself unfulfilled.
As for the only thinking you're happy. Seems somewhat scientology like to me. "You're actually completely depressed due to these abstract questions without answers. You just think you're happy because the mass media told you that you were. The truth is out there. Give us $500 and we'll tell you all about it". Could you explain the difference between believing, on every single level, that you're happy, and being happy?
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i saw that coming, I would say happiness is facing reality without suffering? if its possible..
Erm... If they're society robots they wouldn't consider there was somebody or something that was influencing their lives. It's not that they're brainwashed by society into not questioning it. It's because they don't feel the question is important.
we re both assuming now so meh..
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On November 29 2006 00:52 whatever wrote:
i saw that coming, I would say happiness is facing reality without suffering? if its possible..
That sounds more like mere existence than happiness.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9935 Posts
didn't really read anything that well, sorry if this is a hijack, sorry again if this isn't very clear, kind of ranting here. i don't do this much, give me a break.
in general i've found very few people who i really regard with the label as human. everybody fancies themselves thinkers and (so) to some extent they really are, but i do not value the people that really just delude and pride themselves in having this 'deep'ness and false clarity that others don't. fakes making pretense at having morality, scum thinking honor and chivalry can redeem the way they treat girls and their friends, religious people who have convinced themselves that they really do have faith but don't have an ounce of integrity... where's their guilt in just existing and never once considering things for themselves?
and then there's all this bullshit about how important it is to not care about others think, to express oneself without restraint, 'dance like nobody's watching,' and so it often feels like everybody is an opportunist who just tries to desperately show how they exhibit these qualities. yes, these are respectable traits, but why does everyone yearn for things that clearly don't suit them?
the people i envy and love the most are those who are still fragile to what others think yet confident enough to assert themselves, worried by small simple things but proud and appreciative of life, composed yet vulnerable to outbursts, people whose morality and values come from careful internal consideration instead of memorized doctrines. they show beauty in their humility and it doesn't matter how different they are from me, but as long as they have that individual ability to act as they'd like, feel awkward in awkward situations, feel comfort in comfortable situations. my best friends are all like this and a few of them are honestly fucking weird people but it's just very, very nice being around them.
god i have so much trouble finding people that i respect at college. so many people have these unmerited self-righteous cocky looks on their faces, how am i even supposed to approach them? and when they talk to me it's always empty or sucking up or revolting in general. you know i've tried so hard and i always give them the benefit of the doubt thinking 'hey we're all human, we all feel and there's no harm in giving this person a chance' but i just can't deal with the inevitable pretentiousness. i'm optimistic, i think people have good intentions but it just really upsets me.
i don't even think i'm that picky, i just hate people with no character and personalities. it's such a fucking shame.
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This is strange, but I'm going to try to say something.
I had this sort of situation a long long time ago, I was 16 turning 17. For whatever reasons (Shallow or not) I had plans, plans to move half way across the state, to educate myself there, to grow up their, etc.
Well you know what happens when your special something isn't so special anymoee (fucking bitch).
So here I am its 2 or 3 months until my senior graduation, I have no plans to attend college in my state, no "major" to speaks of, I even hated my "supposed" major (computer programming). I sat thinking of what I should do?
Don't ask me why, but I chose music, I thought, well hey I've played this damn thing since I was 13, why not take it somewhere, so that day I went to talk to counselers about music colleges and everything seemed to work out.
So fast forward. I'm at college grinding through music classes and basics alike. I'm really not finding anyone outside my music classes to play music with. Then in my Jazz Apperciation, this wacky, colorful, I-am-Christian-But-I-Still-Hit-The-Sauce-And-Smoke-The-Ganja. (I'm serious his whole attitude was almost like an Evangelist, but he dabbled) Anyway we hung out, and supposely his is like a legend in town with his music, but he's no longer in it. He said his ego was growing and he didn't like the reason he was doing it. So then I told him why I played music, I wanted to people to hear me "express myself" He laughed at me a bit. Then he told me something that stuck with me for a long time.
"You know what, you going to change your reasons, I know I did. You never really know why you do it."
This quote came up as I was reading through your post, and I think maybe I know why.
Music doesn't seem to fit into the machine, like video games, and the like. It's a favorite target and scapegoat.
The reasons I play I still do not know, but I think I understand why some listen now, which makes me want to further my playing...Maybe people use Music, whether they are with a group moshing and kicking the shit out of each other, or sulking in their room listening to emo, or singing poppy non-sense going down the road. Maybe its their escape from the machine, from what they are suppose to do in this world. Kind of like a drug.
I feel like I almost fell into that hole, the pitfall where I would be stuck doing a job hated, the faked smiles and empty hi's. (You ever see those people who actually force the "HI!" When you say "How are you? They don't actually respond and keep walking?) Through an accident I ended up doing something I thought was just a hobby.
I dunno you guys are too intellectual and it kicks my fucking ass, so to hell with you, I tried.
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United States44374 Posts
On November 29 2006 00:55 intrigue wrote:
didn't really read anything that well, sorry if this is a hijack, sorry again if this isn't very clear, kind of ranting here. i don't do this much, give me a break.
in general i've found very few people who i really regard with the label as human. everybody fancies themselves thinkers and (so) to some extent they really are, but i do not value the people that really just delude and pride themselves in having this 'deep'ness and false clarity that others don't. fakes making pretense at having morality, scum thinking honor and chivalry can redeem the way they treat girls and their friends, religious people who have convinced themselves that they really do have faith but don't have an ounce of integrity... where's their guilt in just existing and never once considering things for themselves?
and then there's all this bullshit about how important it is to not care about others think, to express oneself without restraint, 'dance like nobody's watching,' and so it often feels like everybody is an opportunist who just tries to desperately show how they exhibit these qualities. yes, these are respectable traits, but why does everyone yearn for things that clearly don't suit them?
the people i envy and love the most are those who are still fragile to what others think yet confident enough to assert themselves, worried by small simple things but proud and appreciative of life, composed yet vulnerable to outbursts, people whose morality and values come from careful internal consideration instead of memorized doctrines. they show beauty in their humility and it doesn't matter how different they are from me, but as long as they have that individual ability to act as they'd like, feel awkward in awkward situations, feel comfort in comfortable situations. my best friends are all like this and a few of them are honestly fucking weird people but it's just very, very nice being around them.
god i have so much trouble finding people that i respect at college. so many people have these unmerited self-righteous cocky looks on their faces, how am i even supposed to approach them? and when they talk to me it's always empty or sucking up or revolting in general. you know i've tried so hard and i always give them the benefit of the doubt thinking 'hey we're all human, we all feel and there's no harm in giving this person a chance' but i just can't deal with the inevitable pretentiousness. i'm optimistic, i think people have good intentions but it just really upsets me.
i don't even think i'm that picky, i just hate people with no character and personalities. it's such a fucking shame.
Lol. Was kinda off topic but resonates with me somewhat. Which I know makes me a hypocrite. I'm allowed to dislike a vice in others while having it myself though. Go read catcher in the rye, you'd like Holden.
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On November 29 2006 00:34 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2006 00:24 travis wrote:On November 29 2006 00:04 Kwark wrote:
They're not all that different from you, chances are all of them have had that thought too. The problem is that most of them dismiss these thoughts and instead choose to be slaves(yes I am using the term loosely) to those with influence. Or choose to just live their lives simply with those they love and be happy. Leave high philosophy to those for whom happiness lies in the abstract. Someone who knows how to be happy and is content when he is happy seems a lot wiser to me.
You can live your life simply with those you love and be happy, and be wise.
It's the lack of the and be wise part that got GWB re-elected, for example.
If you do not think for yourself, someone will do it for you. That someone almost always has an agenda. Call it second hand selfishness if you will.
Don't get me wrong, I understand what you are talking about and think that happiness truly is paramount. I will not criticize a person based on their lifestyle, when their lifestyle does me no direct harm. I will, however, criticize the lifestyle.
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On November 29 2006 00:55 intrigue wrote:
god i have so much trouble finding people that i respect at college. so many people have these unmerited self-righteous cocky looks on their faces, how am i even supposed to approach them? and when they talk to me it's always empty or sucking up or revolting in general.
where do you go to college? I just started this year and I know exactly what you mean. Luckily I have managed to make some new friends, but it really is completely different from the friends I grew up with... already in my dorm people have formed tight groups that don't really interact with each other, and I don't really like that,
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On November 29 2006 00:51 Kwark wrote:
Could you explain the difference between believing, on every single level, that you're happy, and being happy?
Permanence.
I think whatever might be buddhist or think along those lines. As do I(think along those lines, that is.. I am not buddhist.)
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
deep...
this is the kinda shit i think about in my room... alone in a boarding house...
its quite easy to see the stereotypical person and their relationship to the machine.. the machine turns out rolls for each person to fufill.. the leader, the bitch etc..
these questions reflect on who you are as a person, and the responses in the thread confirm thing about them as well.. the ammount of information gathered from a simple block or text.. or even a smile is enough to tell you everytihng about a person..
humans are social creatures.. we seek companionship, acceptance.. it is no different than other animals in the animal kingdom... by this reasoning can we suggest that there is no machine, that it is all in our minds, creating something from nothing to rationalise ones thoughts? breaking this down into simple biology we can say we humans are simply acting out our genetic code/basic animal instincts...
some people can just forget the big picture... some cannot, some must know the answer... i know i am one of those people who cannot, and im not alone there.. happiness comes in many forms, what makes one happy may not make another happy..
so many questions about existance/human nature yet throughout our lives we cannot find the answers to solve our questions... answers lead only to more questions...
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On November 29 2006 00:54 Dametri wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2006 00:52 whatever wrote:
i saw that coming, I would say happiness is facing reality without suffering? if its possible.. That sounds more like mere existence than happiness.
Mere existence has to have a state or else it is not.
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On November 29 2006 01:01 Aukai wrote:
I dunno you guys are too intellectual and it kicks my fucking ass, so to hell with you, I tried.
No, I think you've crystallized a very salient point. No matter how 'machinized' and canalized the actions of most people, they have much more going on inside them than simple adherance to society's rules. While it's true that some people listen to some music in an attempt to further sculpt their fake image, I think that most people listen because it agrees with what they really think and allows them to feel good about themselves despite their controlled, ratrace lives. Music may, perhaps, be one of the few things that allows us to see that people other than ourselves are truly people.
Edit & sidenote: Lyrics aren't necessary for music to agree with a person's feelings, just as words aren't necessary to express emotion.
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On November 29 2006 01:11 travis wrote:
Permanence.
I think whatever might be buddhist or think along those lines. As do I(think along those lines, that is.. I am not buddhist.)
If you're talking about nirvana or a state of supreme enlightenment, I wish you luck. For myself and much of the world, I believe less lofty expectations are in order.
On November 29 2006 01:12 travis wrote:
Mere existence has to have a state or else it is not.
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intrigue care to explain how "not care about others think" is bullshit?
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On November 29 2006 01:28 whatever wrote:
intrigue care to explain how "not care about others think" is bullshit?
I think I can tackle that one for him
He's not deriding people who actually don't care about what others think; he's saying that people who pretend not to care what others think in order to fit in with others are contemptible.
Edit:
yes, these [independence from peer pressure] are respectable traits, but why does everyone yearn for things that clearly don't suit them?
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thanks dametri, I agree then
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9935 Posts
if you have a problem with what i said, please state it outright. there's no need to try to make me look stupid by pointing out an obvious typo. i'm not going to correct that out of spite, fuck you =(.
i said it was a respectable trait, the 'bullshit' part pertains more to how it's stressed so blindly. every time someone asks 'how do i become happy?' they get the same set of answers, basically the things i listed in that paragraph. but some people can't help but have insecurities or troubles about others and worry, while others just can, it comes naturally. it's really not a weakness or a fault, if it's the way you are, why not just accept it? why is it considered shallow to have such a basic human social concern? how real someone is doesn't lie in their possession of any of those qualities at all, and to try to blindly lie to yourself about something like that is really stupid.
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EPT
