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I know yout post isn't entirely concerned with what I'm about to post, but it wouldn't make much sense if you didnt understand where im basing my opinion of off. Probably confusing you. I remember being in the same boat as you. I was pretty depressed not for myself but for other people with the same diposition as the one you're describing. Then one day my girlfriend stumbled upon an excerpt from self-reliance by ralph waldo emerson.
1) There is a time in every man's education when he arrives at the conviction that envy is ignorance; that imitation is suicide; that he must take himself for better, for worse, as his portion; that though the wide universe is full of good, no kernel of nourishing corn can come to him but through his toil bestowed on that plot of ground which is given to him to till. The power which resides in him is new in nature, and none but he knows what that is which he can do, nor does he know until he has tried.
2) Trust thyself: every heart vibrates to that iron string. Accept the place the divine providence has found for you, the society of your contemporaries, the connection of events. Great men have always done so, and confided themselves childlike to the genius of their age, betraying their perception that the absolutely trustworthy was seated at their heart, working through their hands, predominating in all their being.
3) Society everywhere is in conspiracy against the manhood of every one of its members. Society is a joint-stock company, in which the members agree, for the better securing of his bread to each shareholder, to surrender the liberty and culture of the eater. The virtue in most request is conformity. Self-reliance is its aversion. It loves not realities and creators, but names and customs.
4) Whoso would be a man must be a nonconformist. He who would gather immortal palms must not be hindered by the name of goodness, but must explore if it be goodness. Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.
5) What I must do is all that concerns me, not what the people think. This rule, equally arduous in actual and in intellectual life, may serve for the whole distinction between greatness and meanness. It is the harder, because you will always find those who think they know what is your duty better than you know it. It is easy in the world to live after the world's opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own; but the great man is he who in the midst of the crowd keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude.
6) There is a mortifying experience in particular, which does not fail to wreak itself also in the general history; I mean "the foolish face of praise," the forced smile which we put on in company where we do not feel at ease in answer to conversation which does not interest us. The muscles, not spontaneously moved, but moved by a low usurping wilfulness, grow tight about the outline of the face with the most disagreeable sensation. For nonconformity the world whips you with its displeasure. And therefore a man must know how to estimate a sour face.
7) The other terror that scares us from self-trust is our consistency; a reverence for our past act or word, because the eyes of others have no other data for computing our orbit than our past acts, and we are loath to disappoint them.
8) Why drag about this corpse of your memory, lest you contradict somewhat you have stated in this or that public place? Suppose you should contradict yourself; what then? It seems to be a rule of wisdom never to rely on your memory alone, scarcely even in acts of pure memory, but to bring the past for judgment into the thousand-eyed present, and live ever in a new day.
9) A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day.—'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.'—Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.
I have more to say, but I think reading this first would make it clearer. Once you read this intothewow, pm me and I can send you a discussion, that really elaborates on my views and your views, that I had with my girlfriend. It is really long to post here and I don't know if you'd even be interested..so... your choice 
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IntoTheWow, I have those exact same thoughts each every single day. Maybe we are the same model and came from the same factory. My model number is "person514", what's yours?
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On November 29 2006 06:37 vGl-CoW wrote:
Society is indeed a manmade machine, but it is a necessary construction: the alternative is a state of anarchy and I think Hobbes already explained pretty well why that sucks.
When I see everyone just droning about in the streets, I just think it's sad that most of them simply play their role as a cog in the machine and I understand why so many succumb to depression - it's a pretty bleak existence.
The way I figure it is that all one needs to do is realise that society is just one big necessary construction and that you just do the necessary things to function in that society (you get yourself an education, you don't break the law or at least make sure nobody who would care notices it) and for the rest, you just do whatever it is you do that makes you happy.
I believe you are confusing society with the state, anarchism is the opposite of state not of society.
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On November 29 2006 10:50 Smurg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2006 10:07 j0ehoe wrote:
what in the fuck is with all these deep threads lately? its cool, but its a little odd considering that this is a bw site =p.
smurg, you could always go live on your own in the woods. like im talking real secluded area. youd basically be accomplishing the same thing, escaping automation. Depends, that's just the ideology behind hermitry really...and I mean, you'd be then left out of anything in the world. I'm really talking about the way society is at the moment...you can't really escape the way you've been brought up and the way society is. You'd eventually be kicked out of the woods when they need more paper. If you live that long I guess haha.
well, thats not really true either. if you have enough will power, you can tell yourself 'im leaving this shithole and going to X place around the globe to start anew' and do it.
my uncle dropped out of med school and went into family business for a year. he quit that to travel the world, ended up in indonesia somehwere i believe, where he lived for a year doing whatever he pleased. granted, he came back, but what im saying is you can definitely give yourself a drastic change of scenery if you so choose, even if it is just temporary.
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On November 29 2006 11:24 xM(Z wrote:my personal beliefs when we'r born our personalityes are 'created' with a dice roll from wich we cant escape or we can but at the cost of self (witch i think its not worth it) the dice features mostly genetic heritage from our parents , grandparents...etc , some subconcious survival skills traced back to the time when we came to be and also a 'psihological aspect' the psihological aspect is my explanation for how can stupidity perpetuate its self ) but it also has an ireffutable proof within a nation with some historical spaning one can say :japanese are respectful people , romanians are backstabing selfish pricks , hispanics-latino are hot blooded life loving people ...... what im saying is that a particular characteristic of personality can be unherited just by being a part of a nation (even if he moves at an early age he will still exibit national traites)
man this thing keeps getting deeper....
i understand what youre saying, and to a certain extent, im sure your parents and your nationality does have an impact on you. but if youve ever studied psychology, i think youve heard of the clean slate (i think thats what they call it) when youre a baby. basically your minds blank and you learn from experience, which is where i think a majority of your personality comes from.
for example, say youre born in romania to 100% romanian parents. but literally a day after birth, youre moved around the worl to say guatemala. are you still going to be a backstabing selfish romanian prick? =p. possibly to a certain degree, you may have inherited traits natually through genes from your parents. but the bulk of your personality will come from the environment you grow up in.
examples of this would be something like eminem. you could say hes a black acting white guy. he wasnt born like that, he grew up in an urban, primarily black neighborhood.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
the blank slate idea (tabula rasa) is was used by locke, freud, and aristotle to describe various human traits.
wikipedia:
Generally people now recognise the fact that the entire brain is indeed preprogrammed and organised in order to process sensory input, motor control, emotions, and natural responses. These preprogrammed parts of the brain then learn and refine their ability to perform their tasks.
going with this, a lot has been shown through twin studies etc that everything really is just a mixture of nature + nurture. i don't know why you guys are bringing this stuff up like it's profound.
well i guess if you want to take it further and ask why there are so many hollow mechanized people all around, i'd have to say it's all in the nurture aspect of someone growing up. the friends you make, the ideas you're exposed to, the influences and role models you have. i refuse to believe that it's in someone's genes to be complacent in being a nobody.
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the actions that u do , the way u act , the way u relate to people , your social skills are coming from the enviroment ill give u that what im saying is : that is not who u are , thats how u behave so u'll fit in
...and yes , i'll be a prick i'll just wont show it
if a man has an opinion about something he thinks it first , a woman talks about it first (even if its pure crap) thats how we'r created
now to get back on the topic intothewow stood in that kitcken saw the girl and the first thing he did was to asociate : she is the gf of my lame ass friend so in turn she must share his traits + he was in a shitty mood from all those bad jokes and that is what it took for him to start bashing her with his thoughts in his mind ; she took one look at his facial expresion , read him like a book , panicked and instantly activated her defence mechanism by speaking ... crap i think she just wanted u to give her the benefit of the doubt
maybe u were right , she is just a hollow shell , a mere product of her suroundings but for u to make such an assumption from basicaly nothing its at least wrong , a little snoby , pretentious elitist...etc
besides she's a girl what do u want depth?
aergmgmaegaeg haha man or im full of crap , or im full of crap at least i know its mine :d
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i dont have anythin to contribute really to this post, cept to say, i think its one of the better threads i have read. Good work intothewow
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Australia3818 Posts
On November 29 2006 13:48 j0ehoe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2006 11:24 xM(Z wrote:my personal beliefs when we'r born our personalityes are 'created' with a dice roll from wich we cant escape or we can but at the cost of self (witch i think its not worth it) the dice features mostly genetic heritage from our parents , grandparents...etc , some subconcious survival skills traced back to the time when we came to be and also a 'psihological aspect' the psihological aspect is my explanation for how can stupidity perpetuate its self ) but it also has an ireffutable proof within a nation with some historical spaning one can say :japanese are respectful people , romanians are backstabing selfish pricks , hispanics-latino are hot blooded life loving people ...... what im saying is that a particular characteristic of personality can be unherited just by being a part of a nation (even if he moves at an early age he will still exibit national traites) man this thing keeps getting deeper.... i understand what youre saying, and to a certain extent, im sure your parents and your nationality does have an impact on you. but if youve ever studied psychology, i think youve heard of the clean slate (i think thats what they call it) when youre a baby. basically your minds blank and you learn from experience, which is where i think a majority of your personality comes from. for example, say youre born in romania to 100% romanian parents. but literally a day after birth, youre moved around the worl to say guatemala. are you still going to be a backstabing selfish romanian prick? =p. possibly to a certain degree, you may have inherited traits natually through genes from your parents. but the bulk of your personality will come from the environment you grow up in. examples of this would be something like eminem. you could say hes a black acting white guy. he wasnt born like that, he grew up in an urban, primarily black neighborhood.
I'm living in another country at the moment man, I know you can change your scenery.
I was talking about absolute change.
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On November 29 2006 14:17 intrigue wrote:the blank slate idea (tabula rasa) is was used by locke, freud, and aristotle to describe various human traits. wikipedia: Show nested quote +Generally people now recognise the fact that the entire brain is indeed preprogrammed and organised in order to process sensory input, motor control, emotions, and natural responses. These preprogrammed parts of the brain then learn and refine their ability to perform their tasks. going with this, a lot has been shown through twin studies etc that everything really is just a mixture of nature + nurture. i don't know why you guys are bringing this stuff up like it's profound. well i guess if you want to take it further and ask why there are so many hollow mechanized people all around, i'd have to say it's all in the nurture aspect of someone growing up. the friends you make, the ideas you're exposed to, the influences and role models you have. i refuse to believe that it's in someone's genes to be complacent in being a nobody.
-But Not everyones brain is setup the same way. Just like a computer some people have larger hard drives(memory), more ram(multitasking), Better networking cards(communication skills), graphics cards(artistic ability & imagination), or better processors(intelligence speed). They are born with these abilities. Granted you can learn anything but the speed and determination you do this is not just a choice.
Everyone is built to be molded but the tools you came with in your instruction kit just might be broken or missing.
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uugh i do not agree with you at all charlie. errm. people can always upgrade computers. the great thing about the brain is that it learns how to adapt. it truly is a magnificent thing and comparing it to something that remains stagnant, something like a computer, something that is genetic, and dependent on human genes is moronic to say the least. i remember not being able to do sudokus in my head. through practise i can easily do hards all in my head without writing anything down. sometimes i just close my eyes and a lot of the numbers are in their proper places in a matter of seconds. i beleiev all humans possess the proper "equipment" to run about any 'program". I've never had a photographic memory, but through sudokus i started remembering whole lines then eventually whole paragraphs verbatim. my brain adapted to the adrous task i gave it. this equipment literally seems to upgrade it self.
edit- and dont refute with mentall handicapp people because there are exceptions of course. but allegedly people like einstein has a lower iq than people that girl mariyln from parade ( highest IQ) but what has she ever done for us? I have friend whose IQ is techinically higher than einstein's but theya rent geniuses, nor close. in fact they do not possess any talents that my "lower" iqued friends dont have besdes an uncanny ability to be antisocial 
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From personal experience all that I can certainly tell so far is that nothing is certain, and bloody sure there ain't no key to happiness in realizing everything around you works mechanically.
Yes, you are much more aware of yourself than all the other fools around you, even though its sad to call them like that.... however lifes goes on for you just like it does for them. It doesn't really help you with anything, all your open-minded mentality.... don't get me wrong, 'open-minded' is the key word in assuring a decent life nowadays.... but crap, life goes on, only making you wonder if it wouldn't be a better (or at least more practical) idea to just shut up, brake your stream of thoughts and live life at a confortable level of numbness......
Go with the flow, better said, with the herd, live like animals (and by that I mean the only purpose of your existence will be survival of the species)...
After all, most of humanity's great philosophers suffered a miserable existence.... yeah their brain twice the normal size didn't brought any of them 1 more drop of happiness...
But maybe I'm a bit pessimistic over here. That's just me.
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Did you realized that maybe there’s a lot more of yourself than you really show. And I don't mean private thoughts, maybe things you want to share but you don’t find a moment or words to do it?
When I was a child, I was a thief. Not the money robbing type, but the abusive sadistic type. I would take things from friends, wait for them to suffer and then somehow give it back to them in a way that they didn't think I stole it from them in the first place. I was experimentalist with emotions, toiling with people, making them cry, making them laugh, making them smile, making them angry, making them feel special, or hated. I researched all the time, looking into tv shows, the way my parents would fight, the patterns in behavior my classmates showed, what personalities seemed favorable, what seemed unfavorable. In the end, I would end up having several different personalities with everyone. I would act like an angel in front of my mother, a domineering savage against my brother, a sad, lonely curious boy in front of girls, and an elitist in front of my friends. But then, I met a person I could not fully calculate. She was a year older than me, blonde with brown eyes. The first time I met her in front of the school's playground, I was somewhat attracted to her at first sight. As I approached her with a stalker-like appearance, she immediately threw a punch at me and called me a "stupid chink!". I was shocked and amused at the same time. As the school aide came to pick me up from the ground and scold at the girl, I told her something strange: I love you. To be honest, I don't quite know why I said that, but the hateful glow in her eyes suddenly turned to a confused one and said,"what are you, some kind of stupid?"
I said, "well if your smarter than me than yeah".
"what makes you think that?"
"obviously you tried to get that point across to me"
"no I think your a stupid chink"
"how come"
"cause you are"
"why does it matter"
"cause you are"
"What if we get married?"
"why do you want that?"
"I think your pretty"
"Your gay."
After that incident, I began questioning the effects I would leave on people. I'm asian, an uncontrollable factor, how would I get her to like me if I'm a stupid chink? I thought about becoming white, changing my hair to blonde, and changing my accent. I asked my mom, why can't I be white? And my mother just look puzzled and told me it was cause of God. So then, I began speculating why the hell God made me Asian, and why make me like a girl who doesn't like me. She explained some things about free will, people have a choice and decide who they like and what they want to be. All that time, thinking I could control everyone just went out into the garbage. I was in fact, never in control of my environment, and it's inhabitants.I was just a piece of the puzzle, a part of the order.
The next time I met her, I was riding on my bike and I saw her crying on the sidewalk.(She actually lived across from my street, quite the convenience.). I tried to ignore her at first, but then she got in the middle of the path and stopped me.
"your chinese right?"
"no I'm korean"
"... I have nothing to do. Let me ride that bike."
"ok"
So I let her ride around the neighborhood, watch her smile from time to time, and I just sat on the sidewalk just staring out into space. AFter awhile, she let me come in into the house and we spent the day playing Yoshi's Island on the snes. Right before I started to head back home, she jumped on my back and told me to be yoshi. It hurt, but I liked it.
From that day forward, we became friends, coming over each other's houses, playing video games together, and making a list of insults at each other for no apparent reason. Then there was this one day she brought super mario 64 and told me she was trying to find yoshi in the game but couldn't. I promised her I would get it for her, borrowed it, and from that day forward, I spent hours on end playing that damn game looking for it. About a month later, I found yoshi ontop of the castle or what not, and I showed it to her. She said, "can't you ride him?" I said no. and then she looked all pissed and what not, and the bitch deleted the file I worked so hard on. Then she said, she was leaving the neighborhood, moving someplace.. She kissed me quick on the cheek and ran out. I didn't know what to do, and I thought it was just one of her stupid ass comments. and that very next day, I didn't see her inside at her house, but just a bunch of men from uhaul picking up stuff and putting them in the truck. I just stood outside, for an hour or so, went home and played mario kart 64. When I saw the truck leave, I had the stupid idea that she was still around, so I went into the empty house and found no one home. I didn't cry, just felt pissed. I shoulda told something to her, a goodbye, anything. I didn't know how to express anything properly, and I realized my failure to communicate with people meaningfully, and all the ideas I wanted to express, were just fucking in my head. (thoughts of happiness, despair, etc.)
I still have that problem, not being able to express myself to other people when I'm in a state. Even on a fucking internet forum, I can't relay my thoughts to each and every one of you in a significant way. All I get through in my head, is that "Quietidiot is just dumbass emo punk on tl.net, fucking rpf-wannabe" is the notion that people get through me. Hilarious in a way, but it just reminds me of how pathetic I can be.
I believe happiness is inexistent, just another word people made up to fill in the gap in between. (although I did not fully get that idea through...fuck...fuck..)
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O yeah, at some point in my life, I believed that everyone around me was just my imagination. Everything was scripted, created out of my insanity, and nothing was real. I tried proving/disproving it, but I found myself looking at paradoxes and dead-ends. My mortal mind cannot understand the brilliant universe that is of an infinite spectrum and level of comprehension so limited.
I also tried disproving the existence of time...
Literally, nearly went crazy doing that.
well not really, just a little exageration
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
quietidiot, i hated your post, i have to be honest with you
so during all this time you spent with this girl, you were never once happy? content? happiness isn't exactly tangible, and so it can perfectly well be a state of being. i had a shitty past i think that kind of reminds me of yours but i knew full well and appreciated the moments when nothing was wrong, when i felt at peace.
even if happiness is just 'the moments in between,' what is bad about that? your body devotes nearly all of its resources to maintain homeostasis, your mind struggles to interpret life in familiar patterns. it's not unreasonable to claim that the absence of pain or discomfort IS a form of pure joy.
nobody's ever really said this to you in response to your posts, but think about it: from what i've seen you're bitter, unappreciative or immature. i mean i find what you have to say often enjoyable but also equally often disgusting. you've had a lot of crap happen to you or you like to think that you have, your self-image or at least the way you like to present yourself is very flawed, and a lot of it probably really isn't your fault, but at least try to be thankful of what you have now.
edit: and please don't take this personally, however hard that is
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I found a dimpled spider, fat and white,
On a white heal-all, holding up a moth
Like a white piece of rigid satin cloth--
Assorted characters of death and blight
Mixed ready to begin the morning right,
Like the ingredients of a witches' broth--
A snow-drop spider, a flower like a froth,
And dead wings carried like a paper kite.
What had that flower to do with being white,
The wayside blue and innocent heal-all?
What brought the kindred spider to that height,
Then steered the white moth thither in the night?
What but design of darkness to appall?--
If design govern in a thing so small.
-Robert Frost
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On November 29 2006 19:09 intrigue wrote:
quietidiot, i hated your post, i have to be honest with you
so during all this time you spent with this girl, you were never once happy? content? happiness isn't exactly tangible, and so it can perfectly well be a state of being. i had a shitty past i think that kind of reminds me of yours but i knew full well and appreciated the moments when nothing was wrong, when i felt at peace.
even if happiness is just 'the moments in between,' what is bad about that? your body devotes nearly all of its resources to maintain homeostasis, your mind struggles to interpret life in familiar patterns. it's not unreasonable to claim that the absence of pain or discomfort IS a form of pure joy.
nobody's ever really said this to you in response to your posts, but think about it: from what i've seen you're bitter, unappreciative or immature. i mean i find what you have to say often enjoyable but also equally often disgusting. you've had a lot of crap happen to you or you like to think that you have, your self-image or at least the way you like to present yourself is very flawed, and a lot of it probably really isn't your fault, but at least try to be thankful of what you have now.
edit: and please don't take this personally, however hard that is
I appreciate your post and what I have posted is actually one of the most poignant childhood memories I have. I swear my grandmother/priest said those exact words at me. I am a cynical bastard, no doubt about it. In that time, I did feel something, but I'm honestly not sure it can classify as "content. Actually, I felt complete. And I felt this emotion only with her, and it's a unique feeling I will never forget. lol, all the girls I've met past her, can't match up to her, she was my perfect one in my mind. (A main reason why I've never had a girlfriend up to the point, everyone just looked the same to me.) But it brings me useless pain, and to me, the past is something you can't do anything about, it's just there for your memories. The present, the future, as I see it, is what that matters, and your right, I should be appreciative that I have all my limbs, not dying of AIDS, a young body, and time. Happiness is always followed by sadness and vice versa. It's sickening, I don't want to deal with it. I just want to be a machine, I just want to contribute to the world so that others don't have to be me. Yes, I realized, I'm weak in that sense, unable to face some of my conflicts, unable to put the past truly behind me. Always trying to rid of these beautiful things that make up a human being. Foolish, stupid, and shameful. I am truly immature.
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this shit just makes me feel depressed
why cant we get back to threads like the testosterone( holy crap spelled that right on first try!) thread?
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Looks like we have a board full of emo cynics who have all questioned existence :o j/k
IMO it's kind of bad (hard to explain, not really bad, but sort of like "pointless") to question our existences and the existences of the universe...
The way I look at the universe, purpose in regards to human beings is on two levels: One, what is the purpose of mankind's existence in the universe? and Two, what is the purpose of mankind's existence to mankind itself?
The answer to the first question, so far, is that humans do not have a purpose in the universe-- arrived at simply because I could not come up with another explanation.
To the second question, I think is where the concept of gears come in. I know the feeling when you sort of just sit there and suddenly have a split-second feeling of how vast the universeworld actually is compared to you, a feeling of being "trapped" in a single perspective without any means of reaching out and just "sensing." There is a yearning to make a difference, to simply transfer ideas into actions without having to go through the hassle of using the physical body.
However, the view of people as gears created and each turning to the forces of other gears, I think, is one that should be abandoned once arrived at. Humans exist in society for the sole purpose of living out their lives, seeking happiness (most important), and fulfilling whatever they fulfill- there is no real "why," it just happens. For those people whose fulfillments have become milestones in history, I think, even if they did question their existence, they surely saw that there was no purpose to being aware of this fact, and simply contented with themselves in being gears. They, through focusing their efforts on being gears, were able to become large and powerful gears that has influence on the entire clock, the human collective, itself.
Sometimes, when I think of the emptiness out there and despair over my insignificance, I envy the mentally retarded who seem to live in their own oblivious worlds. They too, are surely gears that are turned and in turn turn others, but are perfectly content with being gears. After all, we humans are not cold, metal gears. We are warm-blooded gears, and if we focus on simply being gears and accept our position, one day we too might have a chance to become a large and powerful gear that would influence the machine that is the human collective, one that will stay in place even after our deaths.
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EPT
