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Agathon
France1505 Posts
The only good way to win for Israel is to win the heart of palestinians and take the place of Hamas. In gaza Hamas help the people, provide food, water, electricity and stuffs, it's the way they keep their support. Each bomb on houses and hospitals is another argument for Hamas to confort its position. Sadly, Israel doesn't seem to know anything else than an hardcore version of lex talionis : "1000 eyes for a dust in the eye"... | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
However, there's absolutely no disputing who's in the right with this present conflict. Feel free to make yourself look stupid and tell us. Because the last time i checked, neither the Hamas nor the Knesset was. On some days the Hamas has fired over 100 rockets at Israel. Just because they happen to suck at hitting somebody does that somehow make that better? That's literally the dumbest comment by far in this thread. Gratulations. You actually think they don't hit shit because they suck at shooting rockets? That's the reason? Do you actually believe that, disqualifying your opinion even more, or are you just trying to hyperbole/ridicule? Note, i'm not saying they don't want to hit stuff. edit: The Palestinian apologism in this thread is ridiculous. No such thing here. Literally no one tried to justify hamas actions. Except you equal empathy for palestinian civilians with apologism, which would be ridiculous, but at least an explanation. | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5275 Posts
On July 23 2014 22:04 IcemanAsi wrote: The idea of citizenship is based on birth in almost all countries, it is almost always that simple. You are a German citizen if you are the child of a German citizen. I ask again, my daughter was born in Israel, as an Israeli citizen, in what way do you think of her as a trespasser? In history classes, we learn history. late reply but whatever. based on your logic, Israelis born on Palestinian soil, based on the map agreed in '67, should get palestinian citizenship, but do they?. nope, because technically As of 2009 there is no internationally recognized nation of Palestine. well shit ... how did that happen?.also, BBC News, January 12, 2012 Israel’s Supreme Court has upheld a law banning Palestinians who marry Israelis from gaining Israeli citizenship. “Human rights do not prescribe national suicide,” Judge Asher Grunis wrote in the judgement. The law was introduced in 2003, with its backers citing security concerns and the need to ensure Israel remains a Jewish-majority state. citizenship or no citizenship, the way germans learn in schools that nazis were bad, Israelis should learn in schools that occupying Palestine is bad; but that never happens, right?. User was warned for this post | ||
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bluzi
4703 Posts
On July 24 2014 00:59 Agathon wrote: This conflict has no chance to be solved by guns and bombs. The more civilians are dying, the more Hamas find new recruts and the more aggression and desperate acts (suicide bombing for exemple) append. The only good way to win for Israel is to win the heart of palestinians and take the place of Hamas. In gaza Hamas help the people, provide food, water, electricity and stuffs, it's the way they keep their support. Each bomb on houses and hospitals is another argument for Hamas to confort its position. Sadly, Israel doesn't seem to know anything else than an hardcore version of lex talionis : "1000 eyes for a dust in the eye"... you know whats sad ? its not the hamas who provides electricity and cement and flower to the gaza strip , its Israel... crazy ha ? even during these days , they still send supplies EVERY WEEK and electricty is still on. i would agree with the first pargraph , more casulties == more new recruits , less to lose as they have less work and what not. but Hamas is doing it him self , they get all the money (they govern there) and spend it as they wish , you could guess how , not by building power plants or building infrastructure , you could take a look at Araft`s wife living in Paris with estimated fortune of 300M dollars , how ? they rip off their own population, ALL new countries in the past (including israel) were built on principles of building and creating and mostly with leaders who share such views , here the leadership wants money , and to kill israel (which they cant .... sorry to break their hearts) . funny you think israel are overreacting , try 15 years of missiles , suicide bombers , shooting on roads , while the USA conqured a state due to terrorist attack , and the Russia killed thousdans due terror attacks ,,, maybe you could state what Hamas wants ? what are the end goal ? i can tell you -> attack and more attacks -> get more funds from Iran/Qatar -> gain more power -> take over the west bank if possible -> attack and more attacks -> get more funds , and so on. do you see that Israel REACTS to attacks from Gaza? do you see why if London will be bombed 20 days and forigen airlines stop flyin to your country because of a risk of being shot down is not something a coutry could suffer then i cant help anyone in this thread ,dont judge them before you lived in their shoes. again i feel bad for the gaza ppl , as hamas is not letting them have a chance for peace and normal economy .... | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3942 Posts
If you deny the moderate Palestinians any success in negotiations... of course the hardliners will win. Oh and about people saying the Hamas started the bombing... In fact wrong: It started with the kidnapping of the 3 students, then the military retaliation (oups, they called it a search, that killed a dozen Palestinians) that was then answered by rockets, which again lead to the current situation... | ||
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bluzi
4703 Posts
On July 24 2014 01:34 mahrgell wrote: And who is the mainreason that Hamas wins every election there? If you deny the moderate Palestinians any success in negotiations... of course the hardliners will win. Oh and about people saying the Hamas started the bombing... In fact wrong: It started with the kidnapping of the 3 students, then the military retaliation (oups, they called it a search, that killed a dozen Palestinians) that was then answered by rockets, which again lead to the current situation... sorry , but you are wrong , the 3 students were MURDDERED in the WESTBANK which is a DIFFERENT PLACE. also do you see how you accuse isreal for trying to find them in the westbank as something bad ? and you dont condem the cold blodded murder of the kids ? please , try and understand GAZA != Westbank , we have abu mazen in the westbank , but in Gaza we have a terror organizaition , 3 students kidnapped this is what you write?!!?!??! they were EXECUTED!!! | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On July 24 2014 01:34 mahrgell wrote: And who is the mainreason that Hamas wins every election there? If you deny the moderate Palestinians any success in negotiations... of course the hardliners will win. Oh and about people saying the Hamas started the bombing... In fact wrong: It started with the kidnapping of the 3 students, then the military retaliation (oups, they called it a search, that killed a dozen Palestinians) that was then answered by rockets, which again lead to the current situation... Since 2000 the Hamas has hit Israel with thousands of rockets. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8UuwQaG.jpg) | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3942 Posts
On July 24 2014 01:38 bluzi wrote: sorry , but you are wrong , the 3 students were MURDDERED in the WESTBANK which is a DIFFERENT PLACE. also do you see how you accuse isreal for trying to find them in the westbank as something bad ? and you dont condem the cold blodded murder of the kids ? please , try and understand GAZA != Westbank , we have abu mazen in the westbank , but in Gaza we have a terror organizaition , 3 students kidnapped this is what you write?!!?!??! they were EXECUTED!!! read your post at least once before submitting, thanks And while of course there is nothing to discuss about not condemning the murder on those kids, question remains, if it justifies the way, in which they were searched... I doubt any neighbor country would appreciate, if security forces would invade their land, bulldoze a few houses, kill a dozen unrelated people because there was a kidnapping near the border. If you treat an entire population like they are worthless shit, because there are a few scumbags among them... don't be surprised, if they resist to their own capacities. Should the US invade Mexico every time, some Mexican commits a crime in NY? @Nyxisto the past months were super quiet, especially from the Hamas. The Hamas got massive criticism from more extremist groups for their soft stance, as they refused to fire on Israel. It started with the kidnapping and the Israelian retaliation. | ||
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Lemonerer
Israel135 Posts
This is not about religion, this is not about genocide (Lol can't believe I'm even widnessing such claims). This is about Israel's right to exist and have a normal life without having to go to shelters three times a day. Nobody stops Gaza from building hospitals and universities or better roads and industry, all they gotta do is put their weapons down and there would be peace, nobody enjoys barricading those guys and I'm 100% sure that they can get most of what they want through trust earned by just stopping the war. Israel will not open the borders or destroy the walls easily since it's too much of a risk considering the reasons these measures were built for in the first place. Unlike you people I can remember as a child how many buses exploded to suicide bombers and how scared I was for my mother going to work in Tel Aviv every day. You keyboard warriors cannot even comprehend such reality. Dealing with fanatic islamists is so freaking complicated and while I certinly DO NOT agree with many of the things my country is doing there is no denying that Hamas is a huge evil and Israel must defend itself at all costs. Some of the comments here made me sick and I don't think I'll bother commenting in this thread again. I wish my future children will have such an easy life so they could be as innocent and ignorant as some of the people in this thread. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On July 24 2014 01:53 Lemonerer wrote: Holy crap so much ignorance in this thread. Guess all the manchilds know best without even actually being here and understanding whats going on. This is not about religion, this is not about genocide (Lol can't believe I'm even widnessing such claims). This is about Israel's right to exist and have a normal life without having to go to shelters three times a day. Nobody stops Gaza from building hospitals and universities or better roads and industry, all they gotta do is put their weapons down and there would be peace, nobody enjoys barricading those guys and I'm 100% sure that they can get most of what they want through trust earned by just stopping the war. Israel will not open the borders or destroy the walls easily since it's too much of a risk considering the reasons these measures were built for in the first place. Unlike you people I can remember as a child how many buses exploded to suicide bombers and how scared I was for my mother going to work in Tel Aviv every day. You keyboard warriors cannot even comprehend such reality. Dealing with fanatic islamists is so freaking complicated and while I certinly DO NOT agree with many of the things my country is doing there is no denying that Hamas is a huge evil and Israel must defend itself at all costs. Some of the comments here made me sick and I don't think I'll bother commenting in this thread again. I wish my future children will have such an easy life so they could be as innocent and ignorant as some of the people in this thread. Now you tell me why people should have empathy with israelian civilians (and they, including me, certainly have), but as soon as you ask for the same empathy towards palestinian civilians, it's "apologism"? There's two sides in this conflict, both can be split in two. You have the IDF/Knesset and israelian civilians, and you have the hamas and palestinian civilians. I don't see any problem with feeling for civilians, and criticising "fighting forces" of both sides. Yet, every single time i hear a pro-israelian talk, they talk about how their families are scared of rocketattacks. Fair enough, i think nobody would deny that this is a horrible life, even though not many of these rockets actually hit. Now what about palestinian families? You think on the other side of the wall, they all wave their AKs shouting allah akbar (or whatever it is), every time a rocket gets fired? You people paint an extremely distorted picture of who is a victim, it's not just israelis being terrorized. edit: One important piece for everyone here who shouts "but israel is supplying power and water n shit!" - they don't do that out of generosity or kindness of their hearts. They do it because they have to. It's a condition of the Oslo Accord. | ||
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Lemonerer
Israel135 Posts
On July 24 2014 02:03 m4ini wrote: Now you tell me why people should have empathy with israelian civilians (and they, including me, certainly have), but as soon as you ask for the same empathy towards palestinian civilians, it's "apologism"? There's two sides in this conflict, both can be split in two. You have the IDF/Knesset and israelian civilians, and you have the hamas and palestinian civilians. I don't see any problem with feeling for civilians, and criticising "fighting forces" of both sides. Yet, every single time i hear a pro-israelian talk, they talk about how their families are scared of rocketattacks. Fair enough, i think nobody would deny that this is a horrible life, even though not many of these rockets actually hit. Now what about palestinian families? You think on the other side of the wall, they all wave their AKs shouting allah akbar (or whatever it is), every time a rocket gets fired? You people paint an extremely distorted picture of who is a victim, it's not just israelis being terrorized. Nobody stops Gaza from building hospitals and universities or better roads and industry, all they gotta do is put their weapons down and there would be peace, nobody enjoys barricading those guys and I'm 100% sure that they can get most of what they want through trust earned by just stopping the war. done for real this time | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On July 24 2014 02:05 Lemonerer wrote: Nobody stops Gaza from building hospitals and universities or better roads and industry, all they gotta do is put their weapons down and there would be peace, nobody enjoys barricading those guys and I'm 100% sure that they can get most of what they want through trust earned by just stopping the war. done for real this time Way to adress the things that i said. All they gotta do? You're talking about the hamas as if that is everything that is on the other side of the wall. And that's the reason why your opinion is irrelevant. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On July 24 2014 02:03 m4ini wrote: Now you tell me why people should have empathy with israelian civilians (and they, including me, certainly have), but as soon as you ask for the same empathy towards palestinian civilians, it's "apologism"? There's two sides in this conflict, both can be split in two. You have the IDF/Knesset and israelian civilians, and you have the hamas and palestinian civilians. I don't see any problem with feeling for civilians, and criticising "fighting forces" of both sides. Yet, every single time i hear a pro-israelian talk, they talk about how their families are scared of rocketattacks. Fair enough, i think nobody would deny that this is a horrible life, even though not many of these rockets actually hit. Now what about palestinian families? You think on the other side of the wall, they all wave their AKs shouting allah akbar (or whatever it is), every time a rocket gets fired? You people paint an extremely distorted picture of who is a victim, it's not just israelis being terrorized. And "empathizing" with the Palestinian civilians accomplishes what, exactly? The reason why the Palestinian civilians are going through all of this shit is because they're governed by a bunch of terrorists that are forcing Israel to conduct military operations that affect Palestinian civilians. | ||
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Agathon
France1505 Posts
On July 24 2014 01:53 Lemonerer wrote: Holy crap so much ignorance in this thread. Guess all the manchilds know best without even actually being here and understanding whats going on. This is not about religion, this is not about genocide (Lol can't believe I'm even widnessing such claims). This is about Israel's right to exist and have a normal life without having to go to shelters three times a day. Nobody stops Gaza from building hospitals and universities or better roads and industry, all they gotta do is put their weapons down and there would be peace, nobody enjoys barricading those guys and I'm 100% sure that they can get most of what they want through trust earned by just stopping the war. Israel will not open the borders or destroy the walls easily since it's too much of a risk considering the reasons these measures were built for in the first place. Unlike you people I can remember as a child how many buses exploded to suicide bombers and how scared I was for my mother going to work in Tel Aviv every day. You keyboard warriors cannot even comprehend such reality. Dealing with fanatic islamists is so freaking complicated and while I certinly DO NOT agree with many of the things my country is doing there is no denying that Hamas is a huge evil and Israel must defend itself at all costs. Some of the comments here made me sick and I don't think I'll bother commenting in this thread again. I wish my future children will have such an easy life so they could be as innocent and ignorant as some of the people in this thread. "defend itself at all costs." It's precisely what we reproach to Israel government : the cost of it's defense which is mostly civilian blood. Nobody here denies Israel's right to defend itself. Our problem is the way Israel does it. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On July 24 2014 02:11 xDaunt wrote: And "empathizing" with the Palestinian civilians accomplishes what, exactly? The reason why the Palestinian civilians are going through all of this shit is because they're governed by a bunch of terrorists that are forcing Israel to conduct military operations that affect Palestinian civilians. You're partially right. One of the reasons they go through that is because they're governed by a bunch of terrorists. That's true, and nobody in here denies that. Your question "why emphathize with palestinian civilians", i'm not entirely sure if i understand it correctly (the way i do understand it, would paint you pretty much as an asshole, so i wait for you to elaborate). Where you're wrong is "forcing israel to conduct military operations". Well, partially. Obviously nobody would expect the IDF to put their hands in their lap and play gameboy. But it's pretty telling when even the americans value civilian lifes more than the IDF, as i recall from actual experience (soldiers risking their lives to clean houses instead of blowing it up because of civilians). | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On July 24 2014 02:05 Lemonerer wrote: Nobody stops Gaza from building hospitals and universities or better roads and industry, all they gotta do is put their weapons down and there would be peace, nobody enjoys barricading those guys and I'm 100% sure that they can get most of what they want through trust earned by just stopping the war. done for real this time That's funny, because this "nobody" you speak of is Isreal. Gaza builds hospitals, only for Isreal to bomb them. Gaza needs concrete to rebuild hospitals and schools and roads, only that concrete is prohibited to be imported in becuase it is a construction material. Gaza useed to have a thriving flower industry only for Isreal to...well, you get the idea. It's hard to build the infrastructure when you cannot import building materials, and it's hard to build up an industry when not only can Gaza not get the raw materials, so the only industry available is farming, it is shut down becuase Isreal decides that Gaza cannot export either. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On July 24 2014 02:15 m4ini wrote: You're partially right. One of the reasons they go through that is because they're governed by a bunch of terrorists. That's true, and nobody in here denies that. Your question "why emphathize with palestinian civilians", i'm not entirely sure if i understand it correctly (the way i do understand it, would paint you pretty much as an asshole, so i wait for you to elaborate). Where you're wrong is "forcing israel to conduct military operations". Well, partially. Obviously nobody would expect the IDF to put their hands in their lap and play gameboy. But it's pretty telling when even the americans value civilian lifes more than the IDF, as i recall from actual experience (soldiers risking their lives to clean houses instead of blowing it up because of civilians). My point is that there are too many people (as illustrated by this thread) who let their sympathy for the plight of Palestinian civilians interfere with a rational analysis of what is actually causing the plight of the Palestinian people. The result is that there is far too much shitting on the IDF and not enough acceptance of the necessity of what the IDF is actually doing. Hell, as far as I am concerned, there is not enough appreciation for the restraint that the IDF is exercising. This is part of the Palestinian apologism that I described earlier. | ||
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HeatEXTEND
Netherlands836 Posts
On July 24 2014 01:38 bluzi wrote: sorry , but you are wrong , the 3 students were MURDDERED in the WESTBANK which is a DIFFERENT PLACE. also do you see how you accuse isreal for trying to find them in the westbank as something bad ? and you dont condem the cold blodded murder of the kids ? please , try and understand GAZA != Westbank , we have abu mazen in the westbank , but in Gaza we have a terror organizaition , 3 students kidnapped this is what you write?!!?!??! they were EXECUTED!!! By the way, who kidnapped those kids ? Who was responsible ? It may very well have been a small group of disgruntled people acting on their own, nobody knows, and we never will. Also, you want to talk execution of kids ? Better yet, want to see some ? I won't be embedding it here but you can search for "Unlawful killing of two Palestinian teens outside Ofer". It consists of two people getting sniped out of nowhere for no reason but revenge for a clash that took place between Palestinian youths and Israeli forces. Mind you this happened two months ago. Can you imagine what this type of shit does to people's mindset ? Please don't act like those three murders are such an atrocity in the grand scheme of things going on there. Yes, it's fucked up, and so is a whole lot of other shit happening there. | ||
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Liman
Serbia681 Posts
Lets not forget why all of this is happening year after a year,and reason (not the only one but the main one) why radical Islamism is so strong.Making a Jewish state where it doesnt belong...Ultimately this is not Jew or Arab fault,its the fault of the people who let Israel exist in the place where is it now,US and former landowners of Palestine UK. Dont forget this conflict lasts for 68 years now,and im afraid it wont end until one or the other side is wiped out. If only they made Israeli state somewhere else,Australia,Canada,North Dakota,etc.but i guess someone had interest in existence of pro western state armed with nuclear weapons in the middle east. And before you write "Jews had their state there before Arabs",ask yourselves what would you and your people do if someone came to your country and made a country of their own on it? This is a great 68 year long tragedy. | ||
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