On July 24 2014 01:53 Lemonerer wrote: Holy crap so much ignorance in this thread. Guess all the manchilds know best without even actually being here and understanding whats going on. This is not about religion, this is not about genocide (Lol can't believe I'm even widnessing such claims). This is about Israel's right to exist and have a normal life without having to go to shelters three times a day.
Nobody stops Gaza from building hospitals and universities or better roads and industry, all they gotta do is put their weapons down and there would be peace, nobody enjoys barricading those guys and I'm 100% sure that they can get most of what they want through trust earned by just stopping the war.
Israel will not open the borders or destroy the walls easily since it's too much of a risk considering the reasons these measures were built for in the first place. Unlike you people I can remember as a child how many buses exploded to suicide bombers and how scared I was for my mother going to work in Tel Aviv every day. You keyboard warriors cannot even comprehend such reality.
Dealing with fanatic islamists is so freaking complicated and while I certinly DO NOT agree with many of the things my country is doing there is no denying that Hamas is a huge evil and Israel must defend itself at all costs.
Some of the comments here made me sick and I don't think I'll bother commenting in this thread again. I wish my future children will have such an easy life so they could be as innocent and ignorant as some of the people in this thread.
Now you tell me why people should have empathy with israelian civilians (and they, including me, certainly have), but as soon as you ask for the same empathy towards palestinian civilians, it's "apologism"?
There's two sides in this conflict, both can be split in two. You have the IDF/Knesset and israelian civilians, and you have the hamas and palestinian civilians. I don't see any problem with feeling for civilians, and criticising "fighting forces" of both sides.
Yet, every single time i hear a pro-israelian talk, they talk about how their families are scared of rocketattacks. Fair enough, i think nobody would deny that this is a horrible life, even though not many of these rockets actually hit. Now what about palestinian families? You think on the other side of the wall, they all wave their AKs shouting allah akbar (or whatever it is), every time a rocket gets fired?
You people paint an extremely distorted picture of who is a victim, it's not just israelis being terrorized.
And "empathizing" with the Palestinian civilians accomplishes what, exactly? The reason why the Palestinian civilians are going through all of this shit is because they're governed by a bunch of terrorists that are forcing Israel to conduct military operations that affect Palestinian civilians.
You're partially right. One of the reasons they go through that is because they're governed by a bunch of terrorists. That's true, and nobody in here denies that. Your question "why emphathize with palestinian civilians", i'm not entirely sure if i understand it correctly (the way i do understand it, would paint you pretty much as an asshole, so i wait for you to elaborate).
Where you're wrong is "forcing israel to conduct military operations". Well, partially. Obviously nobody would expect the IDF to put their hands in their lap and play gameboy. But it's pretty telling when even the americans value civilian lifes more than the IDF, as i recall from actual experience (soldiers risking their lives to clean houses instead of blowing it up because of civilians).
My point is that there are too many people (as illustrated by this thread) who let their sympathy for the plight of Palestinian civilians interfere with a rational analysis of what is actually causing the plight of the Palestinian people. The result is that there is far too much shitting on the IDF and not enough acceptance of the necessity of what the IDF is actually doing. Hell, as far as I am concerned, there is not enough appreciation for the restraint that the IDF is exercising. This is part of the Palestinian apologism that I described earlier.
Rationality is something the conflict is missing, agreed. But "blind-eyeing" the issues at hand is as dangerous and dumb. What you're doing is reducing lives to numbers on paper. Not to mention, i can't see the "restraint" you're talking of. They're not restraining themselves. They pay back a rocket tenfolds. How is that "restrained"? IDF is proven to have used palestinian civilians as bulletshields, is that restrained? The use of white phosphor (you know, the stuff banned by the geneva conventions after the US went haywire with that stuff), is that restrained? Don't give me that bullshit of "they're smokescreens", in a retaliating attack on a "known missile-location" doesn't need to be smokescreened. If you fire "smokescreens" into a dense populated area without the slightest presence there to protect it with, then it's nothing more than an excuse to use extremely disgusting weaponry against civilian areas.
I'm sorry. I don't see where the IDF "restrains" itself, just because they don't act like the world of 70 years ago and just carpetbomb everything.
Edit: and no. There shouldn't be any acceptance to what the IDF is doing, since all they do is fuel the conflict. They do nothing to end the conflict. What they should do is grow some balls, go down there and kill the terrorists like they're supposed to. All they're doing right now is growing the next generation of hamas-terrorists. Every single kid growing up now, parents being killed by an IDF retaliation strike, is a potential rocket-shooter in 15 years time.
On July 24 2014 01:53 Lemonerer wrote: Holy crap so much ignorance in this thread. Guess all the manchilds know best without even actually being here and understanding whats going on. This is not about religion, this is not about genocide (Lol can't believe I'm even widnessing such claims). This is about Israel's right to exist and have a normal life without having to go to shelters three times a day.
Nobody stops Gaza from building hospitals and universities or better roads and industry, all they gotta do is put their weapons down and there would be peace, nobody enjoys barricading those guys and I'm 100% sure that they can get most of what they want through trust earned by just stopping the war.
Israel will not open the borders or destroy the walls easily since it's too much of a risk considering the reasons these measures were built for in the first place. Unlike you people I can remember as a child how many buses exploded to suicide bombers and how scared I was for my mother going to work in Tel Aviv every day. You keyboard warriors cannot even comprehend such reality.
Dealing with fanatic islamists is so freaking complicated and while I certinly DO NOT agree with many of the things my country is doing there is no denying that Hamas is a huge evil and Israel must defend itself at all costs.
Some of the comments here made me sick and I don't think I'll bother commenting in this thread again. I wish my future children will have such an easy life so they could be as innocent and ignorant as some of the people in this thread.
Now you tell me why people should have empathy with israelian civilians (and they, including me, certainly have), but as soon as you ask for the same empathy towards palestinian civilians, it's "apologism"?
There's two sides in this conflict, both can be split in two. You have the IDF/Knesset and israelian civilians, and you have the hamas and palestinian civilians. I don't see any problem with feeling for civilians, and criticising "fighting forces" of both sides.
Yet, every single time i hear a pro-israelian talk, they talk about how their families are scared of rocketattacks. Fair enough, i think nobody would deny that this is a horrible life, even though not many of these rockets actually hit. Now what about palestinian families? You think on the other side of the wall, they all wave their AKs shouting allah akbar (or whatever it is), every time a rocket gets fired?
You people paint an extremely distorted picture of who is a victim, it's not just israelis being terrorized.
And "empathizing" with the Palestinian civilians accomplishes what, exactly? The reason why the Palestinian civilians are going through all of this shit is because they're governed by a bunch of terrorists that are forcing Israel to conduct military operations that affect Palestinian civilians.
You're partially right. One of the reasons they go through that is because they're governed by a bunch of terrorists. That's true, and nobody in here denies that. Your question "why emphathize with palestinian civilians", i'm not entirely sure if i understand it correctly (the way i do understand it, would paint you pretty much as an asshole, so i wait for you to elaborate).
Where you're wrong is "forcing israel to conduct military operations". Well, partially. Obviously nobody would expect the IDF to put their hands in their lap and play gameboy. But it's pretty telling when even the americans value civilian lifes more than the IDF, as i recall from actual experience (soldiers risking their lives to clean houses instead of blowing it up because of civilians).
My point is that there are too many people (as illustrated by this thread) who let their sympathy for the plight of Palestinian civilians interfere with a rational analysis of what is actually causing the plight of the Palestinian people. The result is that there is far too much shitting on the IDF and not enough acceptance of the necessity of what the IDF is actually doing. Hell, as far as I am concerned, there is not enough appreciation for the restraint that the IDF is exercising. This is part of the Palestinian apologism that I described earlier.
This particular exchange of conflict began when in response to kidnapping of 3 kids Israel decided to destroy Hamas' organization. Lets not pretend here that Natanyahu did not use the pretext of those kids to start another short term war to degrade Hamas and once again re-bind American support for Israel
On July 24 2014 01:53 Lemonerer wrote: Holy crap so much ignorance in this thread. Guess all the manchilds know best without even actually being here and understanding whats going on. This is not about religion, this is not about genocide (Lol can't believe I'm even widnessing such claims). This is about Israel's right to exist and have a normal life without having to go to shelters three times a day.
Nobody stops Gaza from building hospitals and universities or better roads and industry, all they gotta do is put their weapons down and there would be peace, nobody enjoys barricading those guys and I'm 100% sure that they can get most of what they want through trust earned by just stopping the war.
Israel will not open the borders or destroy the walls easily since it's too much of a risk considering the reasons these measures were built for in the first place. Unlike you people I can remember as a child how many buses exploded to suicide bombers and how scared I was for my mother going to work in Tel Aviv every day. You keyboard warriors cannot even comprehend such reality.
Dealing with fanatic islamists is so freaking complicated and while I certinly DO NOT agree with many of the things my country is doing there is no denying that Hamas is a huge evil and Israel must defend itself at all costs.
Some of the comments here made me sick and I don't think I'll bother commenting in this thread again. I wish my future children will have such an easy life so they could be as innocent and ignorant as some of the people in this thread.
Now you tell me why people should have empathy with israelian civilians (and they, including me, certainly have), but as soon as you ask for the same empathy towards palestinian civilians, it's "apologism"?
There's two sides in this conflict, both can be split in two. You have the IDF/Knesset and israelian civilians, and you have the hamas and palestinian civilians. I don't see any problem with feeling for civilians, and criticising "fighting forces" of both sides.
Yet, every single time i hear a pro-israelian talk, they talk about how their families are scared of rocketattacks. Fair enough, i think nobody would deny that this is a horrible life, even though not many of these rockets actually hit. Now what about palestinian families? You think on the other side of the wall, they all wave their AKs shouting allah akbar (or whatever it is), every time a rocket gets fired?
You people paint an extremely distorted picture of who is a victim, it's not just israelis being terrorized.
And "empathizing" with the Palestinian civilians accomplishes what, exactly? The reason why the Palestinian civilians are going through all of this shit is because they're governed by a bunch of terrorists that are forcing Israel to conduct military operations that affect Palestinian civilians.
You're partially right. One of the reasons they go through that is because they're governed by a bunch of terrorists. That's true, and nobody in here denies that. Your question "why emphathize with palestinian civilians", i'm not entirely sure if i understand it correctly (the way i do understand it, would paint you pretty much as an asshole, so i wait for you to elaborate).
Where you're wrong is "forcing israel to conduct military operations". Well, partially. Obviously nobody would expect the IDF to put their hands in their lap and play gameboy. But it's pretty telling when even the americans value civilian lifes more than the IDF, as i recall from actual experience (soldiers risking their lives to clean houses instead of blowing it up because of civilians).
The IDF definitely values those lives. If they used American protocols the number of dead civilians would be astronomical. Much like most wars conducted. The IDF is recognized for using the most extensive civilian protection routines out there. What you and everyone else who brings up this issue is hoping for is the impossible. If you look at the numbers of this war, they are significantly lower on civilian casualties than the other mid east wars that have gone on recently, nothing substantiates your claim that the IDF cares less about life than Americans, in fact it shows the opposite. I'm critical of offensives and such, but this specific argument that is ridiculous.
On July 23 2014 21:11 BigFan wrote: Some of these posts are so ignorant and misinformed, really sad to read but not surprising. Wasn't planning on commenting because it wouldn't change opinions anyways but I'll write a couple of points. Just wanted to say those who keep typing that same line of "they have the right to defend themselves" should actually look at the whole context and backstory and not what's currently happening now. Right to defend is fine and makes sense but that doesn't justify the genocide that's ongoing atm.
Also, I had to facepalm hard for whoever wrote that Israel gets sanctioned for war crimes. Do you even watch the news? Every single criminal act that could lead to sanctions gets vetoed by the US. Nothing ever gets through because of that. Israel doesn't really care much for human life and as someone else mentioned, land is all they care about using religion to try to justify it. The whole 'we are Gods' chosen people'. It's true that they were but that doesn't entitle them to massacre the Palestinians and try to take more lands from other countries as well. They keep using white phosphorus which is banned. In my country, they dropped > 1 million cluster bombs when they knew a ceasefire was coming. Who the fuck does that shit? For years after our war, we've had civilians and soldiers dying, upwards of 60 a month at one point.
My hearts goes out to the Palestinian people. I hope you guys have your Palestinian state one day and Israel and its leader get charged for the war crimes that they are guilty of.
It's also a documented fact that Israel does care for human life on the whole; however imperfect its policies may be. Learn about the statistics of warfare, and civilian casualty rates. Don't accuse others of ignorance until you get your own house in order.
right, ignore the whole post because you couldn't respond and focus on the one word that you disagree with. Let me rephrase that for you then: doesn't justify the mass killings that's ongoing atm.
Should take your own advice there and actually answer your post instead of throwing a couple of lines.
On July 24 2014 01:53 Lemonerer wrote: Holy crap so much ignorance in this thread. Guess all the manchilds know best without even actually being here and understanding whats going on. This is not about religion, this is not about genocide (Lol can't believe I'm even widnessing such claims). This is about Israel's right to exist and have a normal life without having to go to shelters three times a day.
Nobody stops Gaza from building hospitals and universities or better roads and industry, all they gotta do is put their weapons down and there would be peace, nobody enjoys barricading those guys and I'm 100% sure that they can get most of what they want through trust earned by just stopping the war.
Israel will not open the borders or destroy the walls easily since it's too much of a risk considering the reasons these measures were built for in the first place. Unlike you people I can remember as a child how many buses exploded to suicide bombers and how scared I was for my mother going to work in Tel Aviv every day. You keyboard warriors cannot even comprehend such reality.
Dealing with fanatic islamists is so freaking complicated and while I certinly DO NOT agree with many of the things my country is doing there is no denying that Hamas is a huge evil and Israel must defend itself at all costs.
Some of the comments here made me sick and I don't think I'll bother commenting in this thread again. I wish my future children will have such an easy life so they could be as innocent and ignorant as some of the people in this thread.
Now you tell me why people should have empathy with israelian civilians (and they, including me, certainly have), but as soon as you ask for the same empathy towards palestinian civilians, it's "apologism"?
There's two sides in this conflict, both can be split in two. You have the IDF/Knesset and israelian civilians, and you have the hamas and palestinian civilians. I don't see any problem with feeling for civilians, and criticising "fighting forces" of both sides.
Yet, every single time i hear a pro-israelian talk, they talk about how their families are scared of rocketattacks. Fair enough, i think nobody would deny that this is a horrible life, even though not many of these rockets actually hit. Now what about palestinian families? You think on the other side of the wall, they all wave their AKs shouting allah akbar (or whatever it is), every time a rocket gets fired?
You people paint an extremely distorted picture of who is a victim, it's not just israelis being terrorized.
And "empathizing" with the Palestinian civilians accomplishes what, exactly? The reason why the Palestinian civilians are going through all of this shit is because they're governed by a bunch of terrorists that are forcing Israel to conduct military operations that affect Palestinian civilians.
You're partially right. One of the reasons they go through that is because they're governed by a bunch of terrorists. That's true, and nobody in here denies that. Your question "why emphathize with palestinian civilians", i'm not entirely sure if i understand it correctly (the way i do understand it, would paint you pretty much as an asshole, so i wait for you to elaborate).
Where you're wrong is "forcing israel to conduct military operations". Well, partially. Obviously nobody would expect the IDF to put their hands in their lap and play gameboy. But it's pretty telling when even the americans value civilian lifes more than the IDF, as i recall from actual experience (soldiers risking their lives to clean houses instead of blowing it up because of civilians).
My point is that there are too many people (as illustrated by this thread) who let their sympathy for the plight of Palestinian civilians interfere with a rational analysis of what is actually causing the plight of the Palestinian people. The result is that there is far too much shitting on the IDF and not enough acceptance of the necessity of what the IDF is actually doing. Hell, as far as I am concerned, there is not enough appreciation for the restraint that the IDF is exercising. This is part of the Palestinian apologism that I described earlier.
Rationality is something the conflict is missing, agreed. But "blind-eyeing" the issues at hand is as dangerous and dumb. What you're doing is reducing lives to numbers on paper. Not to mention, i can't see the "restraint" you're talking of. They're not restraining themselves. They pay back a rocket tenfolds. How is that "restrained"? IDF is proven to have used palestinian civilians as bulletshields, is that restrained? The use of white phosphor (you know, the stuff banned by the geneva conventions after the US went haywire with that stuff), is that restrained? Don't give me that bullshit of "they're smokescreens", in a retaliating attack on a "known missile-location" doesn't need to be smokescreened. If you fire "smokescreens" into a dense populated area without the slightest presence there to protect it with, then it's nothing more than an excuse to use extremely disgusting weaponry against civilian areas.
I'm sorry. I don't see where the IDF "restrains" itself, just because they don't act like the world of 70 years ago and just carpetbomb everything.
Edit: and no. There shouldn't be any acceptance to what the IDF is doing, since all they do is fuel the conflict. They do nothing to end the conflict. What they should do is grow some balls, go down there and kill the terrorists like they're supposed to. All they're doing is growing the next generation of hamas-terrorists.
I agree that the IDF should "end" the conflict. Do you know what that would entail? Full blown occupation of Gaza (and probably the West Bank) again, killing/rounding up all militants, subjugation of the Palestinian people, and a whole host of other actions that would inevitably lead massive collateral damage and loss of civilian life. Annihilation of one side or the other is the only thing that is going to end the conflict over there. After 40 years of trying, I think it's safe to say that we're just kidding ourselves if we think that there will ever be a peaceful and diplomatic solution.
On July 24 2014 01:53 Lemonerer wrote: Holy crap so much ignorance in this thread. Guess all the manchilds know best without even actually being here and understanding whats going on. This is not about religion, this is not about genocide (Lol can't believe I'm even widnessing such claims). This is about Israel's right to exist and have a normal life without having to go to shelters three times a day.
Nobody stops Gaza from building hospitals and universities or better roads and industry, all they gotta do is put their weapons down and there would be peace, nobody enjoys barricading those guys and I'm 100% sure that they can get most of what they want through trust earned by just stopping the war.
Israel will not open the borders or destroy the walls easily since it's too much of a risk considering the reasons these measures were built for in the first place. Unlike you people I can remember as a child how many buses exploded to suicide bombers and how scared I was for my mother going to work in Tel Aviv every day. You keyboard warriors cannot even comprehend such reality.
Dealing with fanatic islamists is so freaking complicated and while I certinly DO NOT agree with many of the things my country is doing there is no denying that Hamas is a huge evil and Israel must defend itself at all costs.
Some of the comments here made me sick and I don't think I'll bother commenting in this thread again. I wish my future children will have such an easy life so they could be as innocent and ignorant as some of the people in this thread.
Now you tell me why people should have empathy with israelian civilians (and they, including me, certainly have), but as soon as you ask for the same empathy towards palestinian civilians, it's "apologism"?
There's two sides in this conflict, both can be split in two. You have the IDF/Knesset and israelian civilians, and you have the hamas and palestinian civilians. I don't see any problem with feeling for civilians, and criticising "fighting forces" of both sides.
Yet, every single time i hear a pro-israelian talk, they talk about how their families are scared of rocketattacks. Fair enough, i think nobody would deny that this is a horrible life, even though not many of these rockets actually hit. Now what about palestinian families? You think on the other side of the wall, they all wave their AKs shouting allah akbar (or whatever it is), every time a rocket gets fired?
You people paint an extremely distorted picture of who is a victim, it's not just israelis being terrorized.
And "empathizing" with the Palestinian civilians accomplishes what, exactly? The reason why the Palestinian civilians are going through all of this shit is because they're governed by a bunch of terrorists that are forcing Israel to conduct military operations that affect Palestinian civilians.
You're partially right. One of the reasons they go through that is because they're governed by a bunch of terrorists. That's true, and nobody in here denies that. Your question "why emphathize with palestinian civilians", i'm not entirely sure if i understand it correctly (the way i do understand it, would paint you pretty much as an asshole, so i wait for you to elaborate).
Where you're wrong is "forcing israel to conduct military operations". Well, partially. Obviously nobody would expect the IDF to put their hands in their lap and play gameboy. But it's pretty telling when even the americans value civilian lifes more than the IDF, as i recall from actual experience (soldiers risking their lives to clean houses instead of blowing it up because of civilians).
The IDF definitely values those lives. If they used American protocols the number of dead civilians would be astronomical. Much like most wars conducted. The IDF is recognized for using the most extensive civilian protection routines out there. What you and everyone else who brings up this issue is hoping for is the impossible. If you look at the numbers of this war, they are significantly lower on civilian casualties than the other mid east wars that have gone on recently, nothing substantiates your claim that the IDF cares less about life than Americans, in fact it shows the opposite. I'm critical of offensives and such, but this specific argument that is ridiculous.
Yeah. What you're conveniently leaving out of the picture though, is that apart from killing civilians and growing more terrorists, the achieve nothing. They're not fighting terrorists, they're retaliating. They don't fight a war. If you take the status quo, you will have an infinity number of civilian casualties, because they achieve nothing.
On July 24 2014 01:53 Lemonerer wrote: Holy crap so much ignorance in this thread. Guess all the manchilds know best without even actually being here and understanding whats going on. This is not about religion, this is not about genocide (Lol can't believe I'm even widnessing such claims). This is about Israel's right to exist and have a normal life without having to go to shelters three times a day.
Nobody stops Gaza from building hospitals and universities or better roads and industry, all they gotta do is put their weapons down and there would be peace, nobody enjoys barricading those guys and I'm 100% sure that they can get most of what they want through trust earned by just stopping the war.
Israel will not open the borders or destroy the walls easily since it's too much of a risk considering the reasons these measures were built for in the first place. Unlike you people I can remember as a child how many buses exploded to suicide bombers and how scared I was for my mother going to work in Tel Aviv every day. You keyboard warriors cannot even comprehend such reality.
Dealing with fanatic islamists is so freaking complicated and while I certinly DO NOT agree with many of the things my country is doing there is no denying that Hamas is a huge evil and Israel must defend itself at all costs.
Some of the comments here made me sick and I don't think I'll bother commenting in this thread again. I wish my future children will have such an easy life so they could be as innocent and ignorant as some of the people in this thread.
Now you tell me why people should have empathy with israelian civilians (and they, including me, certainly have), but as soon as you ask for the same empathy towards palestinian civilians, it's "apologism"?
There's two sides in this conflict, both can be split in two. You have the IDF/Knesset and israelian civilians, and you have the hamas and palestinian civilians. I don't see any problem with feeling for civilians, and criticising "fighting forces" of both sides.
Yet, every single time i hear a pro-israelian talk, they talk about how their families are scared of rocketattacks. Fair enough, i think nobody would deny that this is a horrible life, even though not many of these rockets actually hit. Now what about palestinian families? You think on the other side of the wall, they all wave their AKs shouting allah akbar (or whatever it is), every time a rocket gets fired?
You people paint an extremely distorted picture of who is a victim, it's not just israelis being terrorized.
And "empathizing" with the Palestinian civilians accomplishes what, exactly? The reason why the Palestinian civilians are going through all of this shit is because they're governed by a bunch of terrorists that are forcing Israel to conduct military operations that affect Palestinian civilians.
You're partially right. One of the reasons they go through that is because they're governed by a bunch of terrorists. That's true, and nobody in here denies that. Your question "why emphathize with palestinian civilians", i'm not entirely sure if i understand it correctly (the way i do understand it, would paint you pretty much as an asshole, so i wait for you to elaborate).
Where you're wrong is "forcing israel to conduct military operations". Well, partially. Obviously nobody would expect the IDF to put their hands in their lap and play gameboy. But it's pretty telling when even the americans value civilian lifes more than the IDF, as i recall from actual experience (soldiers risking their lives to clean houses instead of blowing it up because of civilians).
My point is that there are too many people (as illustrated by this thread) who let their sympathy for the plight of Palestinian civilians interfere with a rational analysis of what is actually causing the plight of the Palestinian people. The result is that there is far too much shitting on the IDF and not enough acceptance of the necessity of what the IDF is actually doing. Hell, as far as I am concerned, there is not enough appreciation for the restraint that the IDF is exercising. This is part of the Palestinian apologism that I described earlier.
Rationality is something the conflict is missing, agreed. But "blind-eyeing" the issues at hand is as dangerous and dumb. What you're doing is reducing lives to numbers on paper. Not to mention, i can't see the "restraint" you're talking of. They're not restraining themselves. They pay back a rocket tenfolds. How is that "restrained"? IDF is proven to have used palestinian civilians as bulletshields, is that restrained? The use of white phosphor (you know, the stuff banned by the geneva conventions after the US went haywire with that stuff), is that restrained? Don't give me that bullshit of "they're smokescreens", in a retaliating attack on a "known missile-location" doesn't need to be smokescreened. If you fire "smokescreens" into a dense populated area without the slightest presence there to protect it with, then it's nothing more than an excuse to use extremely disgusting weaponry against civilian areas.
I'm sorry. I don't see where the IDF "restrains" itself, just because they don't act like the world of 70 years ago and just carpetbomb everything.
Edit: and no. There shouldn't be any acceptance to what the IDF is doing, since all they do is fuel the conflict. They do nothing to end the conflict. What they should do is grow some balls, go down there and kill the terrorists like they're supposed to. All they're doing is growing the next generation of hamas-terrorists.
I agree that the IDF should "end" the conflict. Do you know what that would entail? Full blown occupation of Gaza (and probably the West Bank) again, killing/rounding up all militants, subjugation of the Palestinian people, and a whole host of other actions that would inevitably lead massive collateral damage and loss of civilian life. Annihilation of one side or the other is the only thing that is going to end the conflict over there. After 40 years of trying, I think it's safe to say that we're just kidding ourselves if we think that there will ever be a peaceful and diplomatic solution.
Yes. Obviously civilian lives would be lost with the IDF trying to actually end the conflict. But then it stops. At the rate right now, they don't. They kill civilians (or accept these easily), while achieving nothing. There's no end to the conflict as they're doing it right now.
And that's why those dead civilians are unacceptable. They didn't die because the IDF tried to end the conflict. In fact they died because the IDF does not try to end the conflict.
On July 24 2014 01:53 Lemonerer wrote: Holy crap so much ignorance in this thread. Guess all the manchilds know best without even actually being here and understanding whats going on. This is not about religion, this is not about genocide (Lol can't believe I'm even widnessing such claims). This is about Israel's right to exist and have a normal life without having to go to shelters three times a day.
Nobody stops Gaza from building hospitals and universities or better roads and industry, all they gotta do is put their weapons down and there would be peace, nobody enjoys barricading those guys and I'm 100% sure that they can get most of what they want through trust earned by just stopping the war.
Israel will not open the borders or destroy the walls easily since it's too much of a risk considering the reasons these measures were built for in the first place. Unlike you people I can remember as a child how many buses exploded to suicide bombers and how scared I was for my mother going to work in Tel Aviv every day. You keyboard warriors cannot even comprehend such reality.
Dealing with fanatic islamists is so freaking complicated and while I certinly DO NOT agree with many of the things my country is doing there is no denying that Hamas is a huge evil and Israel must defend itself at all costs.
Some of the comments here made me sick and I don't think I'll bother commenting in this thread again. I wish my future children will have such an easy life so they could be as innocent and ignorant as some of the people in this thread.
Now you tell me why people should have empathy with israelian civilians (and they, including me, certainly have), but as soon as you ask for the same empathy towards palestinian civilians, it's "apologism"?
There's two sides in this conflict, both can be split in two. You have the IDF/Knesset and israelian civilians, and you have the hamas and palestinian civilians. I don't see any problem with feeling for civilians, and criticising "fighting forces" of both sides.
Yet, every single time i hear a pro-israelian talk, they talk about how their families are scared of rocketattacks. Fair enough, i think nobody would deny that this is a horrible life, even though not many of these rockets actually hit. Now what about palestinian families? You think on the other side of the wall, they all wave their AKs shouting allah akbar (or whatever it is), every time a rocket gets fired?
You people paint an extremely distorted picture of who is a victim, it's not just israelis being terrorized.
And "empathizing" with the Palestinian civilians accomplishes what, exactly? The reason why the Palestinian civilians are going through all of this shit is because they're governed by a bunch of terrorists that are forcing Israel to conduct military operations that affect Palestinian civilians.
You're partially right. One of the reasons they go through that is because they're governed by a bunch of terrorists. That's true, and nobody in here denies that. Your question "why emphathize with palestinian civilians", i'm not entirely sure if i understand it correctly (the way i do understand it, would paint you pretty much as an asshole, so i wait for you to elaborate).
Where you're wrong is "forcing israel to conduct military operations". Well, partially. Obviously nobody would expect the IDF to put their hands in their lap and play gameboy. But it's pretty telling when even the americans value civilian lifes more than the IDF, as i recall from actual experience (soldiers risking their lives to clean houses instead of blowing it up because of civilians).
My point is that there are too many people (as illustrated by this thread) who let their sympathy for the plight of Palestinian civilians interfere with a rational analysis of what is actually causing the plight of the Palestinian people. The result is that there is far too much shitting on the IDF and not enough acceptance of the necessity of what the IDF is actually doing. Hell, as far as I am concerned, there is not enough appreciation for the restraint that the IDF is exercising. This is part of the Palestinian apologism that I described earlier.
Rationality is something the conflict is missing, agreed. But "blind-eyeing" the issues at hand is as dangerous and dumb. What you're doing is reducing lives to numbers on paper. Not to mention, i can't see the "restraint" you're talking of. They're not restraining themselves. They pay back a rocket tenfolds. How is that "restrained"? IDF is proven to have used palestinian civilians as bulletshields, is that restrained? The use of white phosphor (you know, the stuff banned by the geneva conventions after the US went haywire with that stuff), is that restrained? Don't give me that bullshit of "they're smokescreens", in a retaliating attack on a "known missile-location" doesn't need to be smokescreened. If you fire "smokescreens" into a dense populated area without the slightest presence there to protect it with, then it's nothing more than an excuse to use extremely disgusting weaponry against civilian areas.
I'm sorry. I don't see where the IDF "restrains" itself, just because they don't act like the world of 70 years ago and just carpetbomb everything.
Edit: and no. There shouldn't be any acceptance to what the IDF is doing, since all they do is fuel the conflict. They do nothing to end the conflict. What they should do is grow some balls, go down there and kill the terrorists like they're supposed to. All they're doing is growing the next generation of hamas-terrorists.
I agree that the IDF should "end" the conflict. Do you know what that would entail? Full blown occupation of Gaza (and probably the West Bank) again, killing/rounding up all militants, subjugation of the Palestinian people, and a whole host of other actions that would inevitably lead massive collateral damage and loss of civilian life. Annihilation of one side or the other is the only thing that is going to end the conflict over there. After 40 years of trying, I think it's safe to say that we're just kidding ourselves if we think that there will ever be a peaceful and diplomatic solution.
Yes. Obviously civilian lives would be lost with the IDF trying to actually end the conflict. But then it stops. At the rate right now, they don't. They kill civilians (or accept these easily), while achieving nothing. There's no end to the conflict as they're doing it right now.
And that's why those dead civilians are unacceptable. They didn't die because the IDF tried to end the conflict. In fact they died because the IDF does not try to end the conflict.
So let's pretend that the IDF actually did try to end the conflict as I outlined. How much global support would they receive?
On July 24 2014 01:53 Lemonerer wrote: Holy crap so much ignorance in this thread. Guess all the manchilds know best without even actually being here and understanding whats going on. This is not about religion, this is not about genocide (Lol can't believe I'm even widnessing such claims). This is about Israel's right to exist and have a normal life without having to go to shelters three times a day.
Nobody stops Gaza from building hospitals and universities or better roads and industry, all they gotta do is put their weapons down and there would be peace, nobody enjoys barricading those guys and I'm 100% sure that they can get most of what they want through trust earned by just stopping the war.
Israel will not open the borders or destroy the walls easily since it's too much of a risk considering the reasons these measures were built for in the first place. Unlike you people I can remember as a child how many buses exploded to suicide bombers and how scared I was for my mother going to work in Tel Aviv every day. You keyboard warriors cannot even comprehend such reality.
Dealing with fanatic islamists is so freaking complicated and while I certinly DO NOT agree with many of the things my country is doing there is no denying that Hamas is a huge evil and Israel must defend itself at all costs.
Some of the comments here made me sick and I don't think I'll bother commenting in this thread again. I wish my future children will have such an easy life so they could be as innocent and ignorant as some of the people in this thread.
Now you tell me why people should have empathy with israelian civilians (and they, including me, certainly have), but as soon as you ask for the same empathy towards palestinian civilians, it's "apologism"?
There's two sides in this conflict, both can be split in two. You have the IDF/Knesset and israelian civilians, and you have the hamas and palestinian civilians. I don't see any problem with feeling for civilians, and criticising "fighting forces" of both sides.
Yet, every single time i hear a pro-israelian talk, they talk about how their families are scared of rocketattacks. Fair enough, i think nobody would deny that this is a horrible life, even though not many of these rockets actually hit. Now what about palestinian families? You think on the other side of the wall, they all wave their AKs shouting allah akbar (or whatever it is), every time a rocket gets fired?
You people paint an extremely distorted picture of who is a victim, it's not just israelis being terrorized.
And "empathizing" with the Palestinian civilians accomplishes what, exactly? The reason why the Palestinian civilians are going through all of this shit is because they're governed by a bunch of terrorists that are forcing Israel to conduct military operations that affect Palestinian civilians.
You're partially right. One of the reasons they go through that is because they're governed by a bunch of terrorists. That's true, and nobody in here denies that. Your question "why emphathize with palestinian civilians", i'm not entirely sure if i understand it correctly (the way i do understand it, would paint you pretty much as an asshole, so i wait for you to elaborate).
Where you're wrong is "forcing israel to conduct military operations". Well, partially. Obviously nobody would expect the IDF to put their hands in their lap and play gameboy. But it's pretty telling when even the americans value civilian lifes more than the IDF, as i recall from actual experience (soldiers risking their lives to clean houses instead of blowing it up because of civilians).
My point is that there are too many people (as illustrated by this thread) who let their sympathy for the plight of Palestinian civilians interfere with a rational analysis of what is actually causing the plight of the Palestinian people. The result is that there is far too much shitting on the IDF and not enough acceptance of the necessity of what the IDF is actually doing. Hell, as far as I am concerned, there is not enough appreciation for the restraint that the IDF is exercising. This is part of the Palestinian apologism that I described earlier.
Rationality is something the conflict is missing, agreed. But "blind-eyeing" the issues at hand is as dangerous and dumb. What you're doing is reducing lives to numbers on paper. Not to mention, i can't see the "restraint" you're talking of. They're not restraining themselves. They pay back a rocket tenfolds. How is that "restrained"? IDF is proven to have used palestinian civilians as bulletshields, is that restrained? The use of white phosphor (you know, the stuff banned by the geneva conventions after the US went haywire with that stuff), is that restrained? Don't give me that bullshit of "they're smokescreens", in a retaliating attack on a "known missile-location" doesn't need to be smokescreened. If you fire "smokescreens" into a dense populated area without the slightest presence there to protect it with, then it's nothing more than an excuse to use extremely disgusting weaponry against civilian areas.
I'm sorry. I don't see where the IDF "restrains" itself, just because they don't act like the world of 70 years ago and just carpetbomb everything.
Edit: and no. There shouldn't be any acceptance to what the IDF is doing, since all they do is fuel the conflict. They do nothing to end the conflict. What they should do is grow some balls, go down there and kill the terrorists like they're supposed to. All they're doing is growing the next generation of hamas-terrorists.
I agree that the IDF should "end" the conflict. Do you know what that would entail? Full blown occupation of Gaza (and probably the West Bank) again, killing/rounding up all militants, subjugation of the Palestinian people, and a whole host of other actions that would inevitably lead massive collateral damage and loss of civilian life. Annihilation of one side or the other is the only thing that is going to end the conflict over there. After 40 years of trying, I think it's safe to say that we're just kidding ourselves if we think that there will ever be a peaceful and diplomatic solution.
Yes. Obviously civilian lives would be lost with the IDF trying to actually end the conflict. But then it stops. At the rate right now, they don't. They kill civilians (or accept these easily), while achieving nothing. There's no end to the conflict as they're doing it right now.
And that's why those dead civilians are unacceptable. They didn't die because the IDF tried to end the conflict. In fact they died because the IDF does not try to end the conflict.
So let's pretend that the IDF actually did try to end the conflict as I outlined. How much global support would they receive?
Because Netanyahu cares, right? How much global support did the illegal settlements have, did it change anything?
How much global support did the US have after their recent attacks?
edit: if it ends the war, just do it. Who cares what the US, Russia, EU thinks. At least it shows the people that they actually do care about what they're killing. So far they do not.
Edit: to be clear here. I'm talking about removing the hamas. Not occupying the rest of whats left there. Then go back to the 67s borders, and go from there.
On July 24 2014 01:53 Lemonerer wrote: Holy crap so much ignorance in this thread. Guess all the manchilds know best without even actually being here and understanding whats going on. This is not about religion, this is not about genocide (Lol can't believe I'm even widnessing such claims). This is about Israel's right to exist and have a normal life without having to go to shelters three times a day.
Nobody stops Gaza from building hospitals and universities or better roads and industry, all they gotta do is put their weapons down and there would be peace, nobody enjoys barricading those guys and I'm 100% sure that they can get most of what they want through trust earned by just stopping the war.
Israel will not open the borders or destroy the walls easily since it's too much of a risk considering the reasons these measures were built for in the first place. Unlike you people I can remember as a child how many buses exploded to suicide bombers and how scared I was for my mother going to work in Tel Aviv every day. You keyboard warriors cannot even comprehend such reality.
Dealing with fanatic islamists is so freaking complicated and while I certinly DO NOT agree with many of the things my country is doing there is no denying that Hamas is a huge evil and Israel must defend itself at all costs.
Some of the comments here made me sick and I don't think I'll bother commenting in this thread again. I wish my future children will have such an easy life so they could be as innocent and ignorant as some of the people in this thread.
Now you tell me why people should have empathy with israelian civilians (and they, including me, certainly have), but as soon as you ask for the same empathy towards palestinian civilians, it's "apologism"?
There's two sides in this conflict, both can be split in two. You have the IDF/Knesset and israelian civilians, and you have the hamas and palestinian civilians. I don't see any problem with feeling for civilians, and criticising "fighting forces" of both sides.
Yet, every single time i hear a pro-israelian talk, they talk about how their families are scared of rocketattacks. Fair enough, i think nobody would deny that this is a horrible life, even though not many of these rockets actually hit. Now what about palestinian families? You think on the other side of the wall, they all wave their AKs shouting allah akbar (or whatever it is), every time a rocket gets fired?
You people paint an extremely distorted picture of who is a victim, it's not just israelis being terrorized.
And "empathizing" with the Palestinian civilians accomplishes what, exactly? The reason why the Palestinian civilians are going through all of this shit is because they're governed by a bunch of terrorists that are forcing Israel to conduct military operations that affect Palestinian civilians.
You're partially right. One of the reasons they go through that is because they're governed by a bunch of terrorists. That's true, and nobody in here denies that. Your question "why emphathize with palestinian civilians", i'm not entirely sure if i understand it correctly (the way i do understand it, would paint you pretty much as an asshole, so i wait for you to elaborate).
Where you're wrong is "forcing israel to conduct military operations". Well, partially. Obviously nobody would expect the IDF to put their hands in their lap and play gameboy. But it's pretty telling when even the americans value civilian lifes more than the IDF, as i recall from actual experience (soldiers risking their lives to clean houses instead of blowing it up because of civilians).
My point is that there are too many people (as illustrated by this thread) who let their sympathy for the plight of Palestinian civilians interfere with a rational analysis of what is actually causing the plight of the Palestinian people. The result is that there is far too much shitting on the IDF and not enough acceptance of the necessity of what the IDF is actually doing. Hell, as far as I am concerned, there is not enough appreciation for the restraint that the IDF is exercising. This is part of the Palestinian apologism that I described earlier.
Rationality is something the conflict is missing, agreed. But "blind-eyeing" the issues at hand is as dangerous and dumb. What you're doing is reducing lives to numbers on paper. Not to mention, i can't see the "restraint" you're talking of. They're not restraining themselves. They pay back a rocket tenfolds. How is that "restrained"? IDF is proven to have used palestinian civilians as bulletshields, is that restrained? The use of white phosphor (you know, the stuff banned by the geneva conventions after the US went haywire with that stuff), is that restrained? Don't give me that bullshit of "they're smokescreens", in a retaliating attack on a "known missile-location" doesn't need to be smokescreened. If you fire "smokescreens" into a dense populated area without the slightest presence there to protect it with, then it's nothing more than an excuse to use extremely disgusting weaponry against civilian areas.
I'm sorry. I don't see where the IDF "restrains" itself, just because they don't act like the world of 70 years ago and just carpetbomb everything.
Edit: and no. There shouldn't be any acceptance to what the IDF is doing, since all they do is fuel the conflict. They do nothing to end the conflict. What they should do is grow some balls, go down there and kill the terrorists like they're supposed to. All they're doing is growing the next generation of hamas-terrorists.
I agree that the IDF should "end" the conflict. Do you know what that would entail? Full blown occupation of Gaza (and probably the West Bank) again, killing/rounding up all militants, subjugation of the Palestinian people, and a whole host of other actions that would inevitably lead massive collateral damage and loss of civilian life. Annihilation of one side or the other is the only thing that is going to end the conflict over there. After 40 years of trying, I think it's safe to say that we're just kidding ourselves if we think that there will ever be a peaceful and diplomatic solution.
Yes. Obviously civilian lives would be lost with the IDF trying to actually end the conflict. But then it stops. At the rate right now, they don't. They kill civilians (or accept these easily), while achieving nothing. There's no end to the conflict as they're doing it right now.
And that's why those dead civilians are unacceptable. They didn't die because the IDF tried to end the conflict. In fact they died because the IDF does not try to end the conflict.
So let's pretend that the IDF actually did try to end the conflict as I outlined. How much global support would they receive?
Because Netanyahu cares, right? How much global support did the illegal settlements have, did it change anything?
How much global support did the US have after their recent attacks?
edit: if it ends the war, just do it. Who cares what the US, Russia, EU thinks. At least it shows the people that they actually do care about what they're killing. So far they do not.
Edit: to be clear here. I'm talking about removing the hamas. Not occupying the rest of whats left there. Then go back to the 67s borders, and go from there.
I'm not sure that the world would tolerate that kind of action, and I'm sure that Israel is thinking the same thing. Such an action would already be expensive in both cost and lives. Throw in the added costs of international sanctions and other risks, and it becomes fairly clear why the IDF hasn't gone all the way.
Now you tell me why people should have empathy with israelian civilians (and they, including me, certainly have), but as soon as you ask for the same empathy towards palestinian civilians, it's "apologism"?
There's two sides in this conflict, both can be split in two. You have the IDF/Knesset and israelian civilians, and you have the hamas and palestinian civilians. I don't see any problem with feeling for civilians, and criticising "fighting forces" of both sides.
Yet, every single time i hear a pro-israelian talk, they talk about how their families are scared of rocketattacks. Fair enough, i think nobody would deny that this is a horrible life, even though not many of these rockets actually hit. Now what about palestinian families? You think on the other side of the wall, they all wave their AKs shouting allah akbar (or whatever it is), every time a rocket gets fired?
You people paint an extremely distorted picture of who is a victim, it's not just israelis being terrorized.
And "empathizing" with the Palestinian civilians accomplishes what, exactly? The reason why the Palestinian civilians are going through all of this shit is because they're governed by a bunch of terrorists that are forcing Israel to conduct military operations that affect Palestinian civilians.
You're partially right. One of the reasons they go through that is because they're governed by a bunch of terrorists. That's true, and nobody in here denies that. Your question "why emphathize with palestinian civilians", i'm not entirely sure if i understand it correctly (the way i do understand it, would paint you pretty much as an asshole, so i wait for you to elaborate).
Where you're wrong is "forcing israel to conduct military operations". Well, partially. Obviously nobody would expect the IDF to put their hands in their lap and play gameboy. But it's pretty telling when even the americans value civilian lifes more than the IDF, as i recall from actual experience (soldiers risking their lives to clean houses instead of blowing it up because of civilians).
My point is that there are too many people (as illustrated by this thread) who let their sympathy for the plight of Palestinian civilians interfere with a rational analysis of what is actually causing the plight of the Palestinian people. The result is that there is far too much shitting on the IDF and not enough acceptance of the necessity of what the IDF is actually doing. Hell, as far as I am concerned, there is not enough appreciation for the restraint that the IDF is exercising. This is part of the Palestinian apologism that I described earlier.
Rationality is something the conflict is missing, agreed. But "blind-eyeing" the issues at hand is as dangerous and dumb. What you're doing is reducing lives to numbers on paper. Not to mention, i can't see the "restraint" you're talking of. They're not restraining themselves. They pay back a rocket tenfolds. How is that "restrained"? IDF is proven to have used palestinian civilians as bulletshields, is that restrained? The use of white phosphor (you know, the stuff banned by the geneva conventions after the US went haywire with that stuff), is that restrained? Don't give me that bullshit of "they're smokescreens", in a retaliating attack on a "known missile-location" doesn't need to be smokescreened. If you fire "smokescreens" into a dense populated area without the slightest presence there to protect it with, then it's nothing more than an excuse to use extremely disgusting weaponry against civilian areas.
I'm sorry. I don't see where the IDF "restrains" itself, just because they don't act like the world of 70 years ago and just carpetbomb everything.
Edit: and no. There shouldn't be any acceptance to what the IDF is doing, since all they do is fuel the conflict. They do nothing to end the conflict. What they should do is grow some balls, go down there and kill the terrorists like they're supposed to. All they're doing is growing the next generation of hamas-terrorists.
I agree that the IDF should "end" the conflict. Do you know what that would entail? Full blown occupation of Gaza (and probably the West Bank) again, killing/rounding up all militants, subjugation of the Palestinian people, and a whole host of other actions that would inevitably lead massive collateral damage and loss of civilian life. Annihilation of one side or the other is the only thing that is going to end the conflict over there. After 40 years of trying, I think it's safe to say that we're just kidding ourselves if we think that there will ever be a peaceful and diplomatic solution.
Yes. Obviously civilian lives would be lost with the IDF trying to actually end the conflict. But then it stops. At the rate right now, they don't. They kill civilians (or accept these easily), while achieving nothing. There's no end to the conflict as they're doing it right now.
And that's why those dead civilians are unacceptable. They didn't die because the IDF tried to end the conflict. In fact they died because the IDF does not try to end the conflict.
So let's pretend that the IDF actually did try to end the conflict as I outlined. How much global support would they receive?
Because Netanyahu cares, right? How much global support did the illegal settlements have, did it change anything?
How much global support did the US have after their recent attacks?
edit: if it ends the war, just do it. Who cares what the US, Russia, EU thinks. At least it shows the people that they actually do care about what they're killing. So far they do not.
Edit: to be clear here. I'm talking about removing the hamas. Not occupying the rest of whats left there. Then go back to the 67s borders, and go from there.
I'm not sure that the world would tolerate that kind of action, and I'm sure that Israel is thinking the same thing. Such an action would already be expensive in both cost and lives. Throw in the added costs of international sanctions and other risks, and it becomes fairly clear why the IDF hasn't gone all the way.
The world so far pretty much tolerated everything israel did so far, apart from some slaps on the wrist. It's not like merkavas never rolled in that direction anyway. About the costs, well. I disagree there as well. It certainly would be cheaper than to run, maintain, and update the iron dome even in the short term.
The only thing that would go up is the casualty rate for IDF soldiers, palestinian civilians die left right and center anyway - might as well give them at least the benefit of having died for peace. So far, again, they don't. They die because the IDF retaliates for strikes which are proven to be pretty much harmless, considering the deathtoll out of 16000(!) rockets fired at israel.
Again, not saying they should sit down and play with their balls - but killing dozens and hundreds of civilians (even shooting at hospitals etc) for rockets of which only a fraction reaches its target is not the way to end anything, it's only breeding new generations of hatred, and now you tell me, since you dodge questions like that:
What do you think, a kid(!) will grow up to after it's parents got killed by a retaliation-strike? As kids, they're not hamas members. So you tell me, how the IDF is doing anything to deescalate or end the conflict.
On July 23 2014 07:52 Sub40APM wrote: In France, crowds of 'Pro-Palestinians' (I put this in quotes because by their actions they have undermined any support they were trying to provide Palestinians) attacked Jewish mosques.
this is wrong. It has been shown that it was the JDL (terrorist group forbidden in the USA and in Israel) that attacked and brought the pro Palestinians to this place, before vanishing behind the police. Jewish people that were in the mosque said nobody attacked anything. see
On July 24 2014 02:11 xDaunt wrote: [quote] And "empathizing" with the Palestinian civilians accomplishes what, exactly? The reason why the Palestinian civilians are going through all of this shit is because they're governed by a bunch of terrorists that are forcing Israel to conduct military operations that affect Palestinian civilians.
You're partially right. One of the reasons they go through that is because they're governed by a bunch of terrorists. That's true, and nobody in here denies that. Your question "why emphathize with palestinian civilians", i'm not entirely sure if i understand it correctly (the way i do understand it, would paint you pretty much as an asshole, so i wait for you to elaborate).
Where you're wrong is "forcing israel to conduct military operations". Well, partially. Obviously nobody would expect the IDF to put their hands in their lap and play gameboy. But it's pretty telling when even the americans value civilian lifes more than the IDF, as i recall from actual experience (soldiers risking their lives to clean houses instead of blowing it up because of civilians).
My point is that there are too many people (as illustrated by this thread) who let their sympathy for the plight of Palestinian civilians interfere with a rational analysis of what is actually causing the plight of the Palestinian people. The result is that there is far too much shitting on the IDF and not enough acceptance of the necessity of what the IDF is actually doing. Hell, as far as I am concerned, there is not enough appreciation for the restraint that the IDF is exercising. This is part of the Palestinian apologism that I described earlier.
Rationality is something the conflict is missing, agreed. But "blind-eyeing" the issues at hand is as dangerous and dumb. What you're doing is reducing lives to numbers on paper. Not to mention, i can't see the "restraint" you're talking of. They're not restraining themselves. They pay back a rocket tenfolds. How is that "restrained"? IDF is proven to have used palestinian civilians as bulletshields, is that restrained? The use of white phosphor (you know, the stuff banned by the geneva conventions after the US went haywire with that stuff), is that restrained? Don't give me that bullshit of "they're smokescreens", in a retaliating attack on a "known missile-location" doesn't need to be smokescreened. If you fire "smokescreens" into a dense populated area without the slightest presence there to protect it with, then it's nothing more than an excuse to use extremely disgusting weaponry against civilian areas.
I'm sorry. I don't see where the IDF "restrains" itself, just because they don't act like the world of 70 years ago and just carpetbomb everything.
Edit: and no. There shouldn't be any acceptance to what the IDF is doing, since all they do is fuel the conflict. They do nothing to end the conflict. What they should do is grow some balls, go down there and kill the terrorists like they're supposed to. All they're doing is growing the next generation of hamas-terrorists.
I agree that the IDF should "end" the conflict. Do you know what that would entail? Full blown occupation of Gaza (and probably the West Bank) again, killing/rounding up all militants, subjugation of the Palestinian people, and a whole host of other actions that would inevitably lead massive collateral damage and loss of civilian life. Annihilation of one side or the other is the only thing that is going to end the conflict over there. After 40 years of trying, I think it's safe to say that we're just kidding ourselves if we think that there will ever be a peaceful and diplomatic solution.
Yes. Obviously civilian lives would be lost with the IDF trying to actually end the conflict. But then it stops. At the rate right now, they don't. They kill civilians (or accept these easily), while achieving nothing. There's no end to the conflict as they're doing it right now.
And that's why those dead civilians are unacceptable. They didn't die because the IDF tried to end the conflict. In fact they died because the IDF does not try to end the conflict.
So let's pretend that the IDF actually did try to end the conflict as I outlined. How much global support would they receive?
Because Netanyahu cares, right? How much global support did the illegal settlements have, did it change anything?
How much global support did the US have after their recent attacks?
edit: if it ends the war, just do it. Who cares what the US, Russia, EU thinks. At least it shows the people that they actually do care about what they're killing. So far they do not.
Edit: to be clear here. I'm talking about removing the hamas. Not occupying the rest of whats left there. Then go back to the 67s borders, and go from there.
I'm not sure that the world would tolerate that kind of action, and I'm sure that Israel is thinking the same thing. Such an action would already be expensive in both cost and lives. Throw in the added costs of international sanctions and other risks, and it becomes fairly clear why the IDF hasn't gone all the way.
The world so far pretty much tolerated everything israel did so far, apart from some slaps on the wrist. It's not like merkavas never rolled in that direction anyway. About the costs, well. I disagree there as well. It certainly would be cheaper than to run, maintain, and update the iron dome even in the short term.
The only thing that would go up is the casualty rate for IDF soldiers, palestinian civilians die left right and center anyway - might as well give them at least the benefit of having died for peace. So far, again, they don't.
I think you're significantly understating the amount of Palestinian civilians that would die in a full blown occupation. We're talking tens of thousands, if not into the six figure range. The civilian casualty rate right now is peanuts compared to what a full scale takeover would look like.
You're partially right. One of the reasons they go through that is because they're governed by a bunch of terrorists. That's true, and nobody in here denies that. Your question "why emphathize with palestinian civilians", i'm not entirely sure if i understand it correctly (the way i do understand it, would paint you pretty much as an asshole, so i wait for you to elaborate).
Where you're wrong is "forcing israel to conduct military operations". Well, partially. Obviously nobody would expect the IDF to put their hands in their lap and play gameboy. But it's pretty telling when even the americans value civilian lifes more than the IDF, as i recall from actual experience (soldiers risking their lives to clean houses instead of blowing it up because of civilians).
My point is that there are too many people (as illustrated by this thread) who let their sympathy for the plight of Palestinian civilians interfere with a rational analysis of what is actually causing the plight of the Palestinian people. The result is that there is far too much shitting on the IDF and not enough acceptance of the necessity of what the IDF is actually doing. Hell, as far as I am concerned, there is not enough appreciation for the restraint that the IDF is exercising. This is part of the Palestinian apologism that I described earlier.
Rationality is something the conflict is missing, agreed. But "blind-eyeing" the issues at hand is as dangerous and dumb. What you're doing is reducing lives to numbers on paper. Not to mention, i can't see the "restraint" you're talking of. They're not restraining themselves. They pay back a rocket tenfolds. How is that "restrained"? IDF is proven to have used palestinian civilians as bulletshields, is that restrained? The use of white phosphor (you know, the stuff banned by the geneva conventions after the US went haywire with that stuff), is that restrained? Don't give me that bullshit of "they're smokescreens", in a retaliating attack on a "known missile-location" doesn't need to be smokescreened. If you fire "smokescreens" into a dense populated area without the slightest presence there to protect it with, then it's nothing more than an excuse to use extremely disgusting weaponry against civilian areas.
I'm sorry. I don't see where the IDF "restrains" itself, just because they don't act like the world of 70 years ago and just carpetbomb everything.
Edit: and no. There shouldn't be any acceptance to what the IDF is doing, since all they do is fuel the conflict. They do nothing to end the conflict. What they should do is grow some balls, go down there and kill the terrorists like they're supposed to. All they're doing is growing the next generation of hamas-terrorists.
I agree that the IDF should "end" the conflict. Do you know what that would entail? Full blown occupation of Gaza (and probably the West Bank) again, killing/rounding up all militants, subjugation of the Palestinian people, and a whole host of other actions that would inevitably lead massive collateral damage and loss of civilian life. Annihilation of one side or the other is the only thing that is going to end the conflict over there. After 40 years of trying, I think it's safe to say that we're just kidding ourselves if we think that there will ever be a peaceful and diplomatic solution.
Yes. Obviously civilian lives would be lost with the IDF trying to actually end the conflict. But then it stops. At the rate right now, they don't. They kill civilians (or accept these easily), while achieving nothing. There's no end to the conflict as they're doing it right now.
And that's why those dead civilians are unacceptable. They didn't die because the IDF tried to end the conflict. In fact they died because the IDF does not try to end the conflict.
So let's pretend that the IDF actually did try to end the conflict as I outlined. How much global support would they receive?
Because Netanyahu cares, right? How much global support did the illegal settlements have, did it change anything?
How much global support did the US have after their recent attacks?
edit: if it ends the war, just do it. Who cares what the US, Russia, EU thinks. At least it shows the people that they actually do care about what they're killing. So far they do not.
Edit: to be clear here. I'm talking about removing the hamas. Not occupying the rest of whats left there. Then go back to the 67s borders, and go from there.
I'm not sure that the world would tolerate that kind of action, and I'm sure that Israel is thinking the same thing. Such an action would already be expensive in both cost and lives. Throw in the added costs of international sanctions and other risks, and it becomes fairly clear why the IDF hasn't gone all the way.
The world so far pretty much tolerated everything israel did so far, apart from some slaps on the wrist. It's not like merkavas never rolled in that direction anyway. About the costs, well. I disagree there as well. It certainly would be cheaper than to run, maintain, and update the iron dome even in the short term.
The only thing that would go up is the casualty rate for IDF soldiers, palestinian civilians die left right and center anyway - might as well give them at least the benefit of having died for peace. So far, again, they don't.
I think you're significantly understating the amount of Palestinian civilians that would die in a full blown occupation. We're talking tens of thousands, if not into the six figure range. The civilian casualty rate right now is peanuts compared to what a full scale takeover would look like.
And you think, the way it's going now, you won't reach that figure anyway?
I actually think a two state solution(with the current ruling forces in Palestine) will never work,nor would it be good for the Palestinian people, given what we have witnessed over the last few decades. I think at this point it would just be for the best if Israel takes control of the Gaza strip, kicks the Hamas out, and tries to build up the region. Maybe at some point you can give them independence, or their own state after the region has reached stability.
But just splitting the land in two now would result in a radical Islamic state which will just be as bad for the people as it is in any of the other Islamic countries in the middle-east. I don't have any prejudices against a moderate Islam, like it is practised in many Asian countries or in Europe. But the radical branch of Islam that is prevalent in the middle-east, which by it's nature is imperialistic and inhumane, will do no good for the people inside or outside of it.
On July 24 2014 04:22 Nyxisto wrote: I actually think a two state solution(with the current ruling forces in Palestine) will never work,nor would it be good for the Palestinian people, given what we have witnessed over the last few decades. I think at this point it would just be for the best if Israel takes control of the Gaza strip, kicks the Hamas out, and tries to build up the region. Maybe at some point you can give them independence, or their own state after the region has reached stability.
But just splitting the land in two now would result in a radical Islamic state which will just be as bad for the people as it is in any of the other Islamic countries in the middle-east. I don't have any prejudices against a moderate Islam, like it is practised in many Asian countries or in Europe. But the radical branch of Islam that is prevalent in the middle-east, which by it's nature is imperialistic and inhumane, will do no good for the people inside or outside of it.
Israel was in Gaza from 67 to what, 05? Did they kick out Hamas? No. Israel unfortunately in occupied territories is primarily focused on promoting colonists over everything else. At least these right wing guys.
On July 24 2014 04:22 Nyxisto wrote: I actually think a two state solution(with the current ruling forces in Palestine) will never work,nor would it be good for the Palestinian people, given what we have witnessed over the last few decades. I think at this point it would just be for the best if Israel takes control of the Gaza strip, kicks the Hamas out, and tries to build up the region. Maybe at some point you can give them independence, or their own state after the region has reached stability.
But just splitting the land in two now would result in a radical Islamic state which will just be as bad for the people as it is in any of the other Islamic countries in the middle-east. I don't have any prejudices against a moderate Islam, like it is practised in many Asian countries or in Europe. But the radical branch of Islam that is prevalent in the middle-east, which by it's nature is imperialistic and inhumane, will do no good for the people inside or outside of it.
Israel was in Gaza from 67 to what, 05? Did they kick out Hamas? No. Israel unfortunately in occupied territories is primarily focused on promoting colonists over everything else. At least these right wing guys.
No, sadly they didn't manage to bring peace to the region, but the population certainly had it better than under the reign of their glorious Islamistic liberators.
We have seen several times now how religious fanaticism has dragged down whole countries in the middle-east. People are complaining that 'critique of Israel' is not veiled anti-Semitism, but seeing what radical Islam has done to the region and still supporting that these forces should be in control of the region can not be founded in anything but deep hate for the Israeli people.
How about states, in which both the moderate forces take over control? Fatah was winning elections, until negotiations got cancelled, as Israel did not agree to the 67-borders. (Actually, Fatah was demanding less then those...) So let the moderate Palestinians rule, and finally get some moderate government in Israel. And not one, that tries to build settlements as quick as possible, so they repeat the eternal story ' but an Israeli was born here'
EPT
