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On July 24 2014 04:39 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 04:31 Sub40APM wrote:On July 24 2014 04:22 Nyxisto wrote:
I actually think a two state solution(with the current ruling forces in Palestine) will never work,nor would it be good for the Palestinian people, given what we have witnessed over the last few decades. I think at this point it would just be for the best if Israel takes control of the Gaza strip, kicks the Hamas out, and tries to build up the region. Maybe at some point you can give them independence, or their own state after the region has reached stability.
But just splitting the land in two now would result in a radical Islamic state which will just be as bad for the people as it is in any of the other Islamic countries in the middle-east. I don't have any prejudices against a moderate Islam, like it is practised in many Asian countries or in Europe. But the radical branch of Islam that is prevalent in the middle-east, which by it's nature is imperialistic and inhumane, will do no good for the people inside or outside of it. Israel was in Gaza from 67 to what, 05? Did they kick out Hamas? No. Israel unfortunately in occupied territories is primarily focused on promoting colonists over everything else. At least these right wing guys. No, sadly they didn't manage to bring peace to the region, but the population certainly had it better than under the reign of their glorious Islamistic liberators. We have seen several times now how religious fanaticism has dragged down whole countries in the middle-east. People are complaining that 'critique of Israel' is not veiled anti-Semitism, but seeing what radical Islam has done to the region and still supporting that these forces should be in control of the region can not be founded in anything but deep hate for the Israeli people.
Cute strawman.
Feel free to quote any post stating that. Small hint before you waste your time: you can't. Since nobody stated that. I don't understand how you can be so adamant that being against IDF "tactics" somehow implies "pro-hamas". That's logic used by kids in a sandbox, if anywhere.
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On July 24 2014 04:39 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 04:31 Sub40APM wrote:On July 24 2014 04:22 Nyxisto wrote:
I actually think a two state solution(with the current ruling forces in Palestine) will never work,nor would it be good for the Palestinian people, given what we have witnessed over the last few decades. I think at this point it would just be for the best if Israel takes control of the Gaza strip, kicks the Hamas out, and tries to build up the region. Maybe at some point you can give them independence, or their own state after the region has reached stability.
But just splitting the land in two now would result in a radical Islamic state which will just be as bad for the people as it is in any of the other Islamic countries in the middle-east. I don't have any prejudices against a moderate Islam, like it is practised in many Asian countries or in Europe. But the radical branch of Islam that is prevalent in the middle-east, which by it's nature is imperialistic and inhumane, will do no good for the people inside or outside of it. Israel was in Gaza from 67 to what, 05? Did they kick out Hamas? No. Israel unfortunately in occupied territories is primarily focused on promoting colonists over everything else. At least these right wing guys. No, sadly they didn't manage to bring peace to the region, but the population certainly had it better than under the reign of their glorious Islamistic liberators. We have seen several times now how religious fanaticism has dragged down whole countries in the middle-east. People are complaining that 'critique of Israel' is not veiled anti-Semitism, but seeing what radical Islam has done to the region and still supporting that these forces should be in control of the region can not be founded in anything but deep hate for the Israeli people.
You realize that Hamas' rise is related to Israel's occupation right? They didnt just appear out of thin air. Israel paralyzes moderate Palestinian authorities and rewards corruption, the rise of a more competent, more violent organization was pre-destined in that part. Thats the problem, effective governance is in Israel's long term advantage but not in its short term advantage. Thats why even during the high point of the Oslo accord, the PA was undermined by both colonists in the West Bank and IDF security operations.
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On July 24 2014 03:04 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 02:55 m4ini wrote:On July 24 2014 02:45 xDaunt wrote:On July 24 2014 02:15 m4ini wrote:On July 24 2014 02:11 xDaunt wrote:On July 24 2014 02:03 m4ini wrote:On July 24 2014 01:53 Lemonerer wrote:
Holy crap so much ignorance in this thread. Guess all the manchilds know best without even actually being here and understanding whats going on.
This is not about religion, this is not about genocide (Lol can't believe I'm even widnessing such claims). This is about Israel's right to exist and have a normal life without having to go to shelters three times a day.
Nobody stops Gaza from building hospitals and universities or better roads and industry, all they gotta do is put their weapons down and there would be peace, nobody enjoys barricading those guys and I'm 100% sure that they can get most of what they want through trust earned by just stopping the war.
Israel will not open the borders or destroy the walls easily since it's too much of a risk considering the reasons these measures were built for in the first place. Unlike you people I can remember as a child how many buses exploded to suicide bombers and how scared I was for my mother going to work in Tel Aviv every day. You keyboard warriors cannot even comprehend such reality.
Dealing with fanatic islamists is so freaking complicated and while I certinly DO NOT agree with many of the things my country is doing there is no denying that Hamas is a huge evil and Israel must defend itself at all costs.
Some of the comments here made me sick and I don't think I'll bother commenting in this thread again. I wish my future children will have such an easy life so they could be as innocent and ignorant as some of the people in this thread.
Now you tell me why people should have empathy with israelian civilians (and they, including me, certainly have), but as soon as you ask for the same empathy towards palestinian civilians, it's "apologism"? There's two sides in this conflict, both can be split in two. You have the IDF/Knesset and israelian civilians, and you have the hamas and palestinian civilians. I don't see any problem with feeling for civilians, and criticising "fighting forces" of both sides. Yet, every single time i hear a pro-israelian talk, they talk about how their families are scared of rocketattacks. Fair enough, i think nobody would deny that this is a horrible life, even though not many of these rockets actually hit. Now what about palestinian families? You think on the other side of the wall, they all wave their AKs shouting allah akbar (or whatever it is), every time a rocket gets fired? You people paint an extremely distorted picture of who is a victim, it's not just israelis being terrorized. And "empathizing" with the Palestinian civilians accomplishes what, exactly? The reason why the Palestinian civilians are going through all of this shit is because they're governed by a bunch of terrorists that are forcing Israel to conduct military operations that affect Palestinian civilians. You're partially right. One of the reasons they go through that is because they're governed by a bunch of terrorists. That's true, and nobody in here denies that. Your question "why emphathize with palestinian civilians", i'm not entirely sure if i understand it correctly (the way i do understand it, would paint you pretty much as an asshole, so i wait for you to elaborate). Where you're wrong is "forcing israel to conduct military operations". Well, partially. Obviously nobody would expect the IDF to put their hands in their lap and play gameboy. But it's pretty telling when even the americans value civilian lifes more than the IDF, as i recall from actual experience (soldiers risking their lives to clean houses instead of blowing it up because of civilians). My point is that there are too many people (as illustrated by this thread) who let their sympathy for the plight of Palestinian civilians interfere with a rational analysis of what is actually causing the plight of the Palestinian people. The result is that there is far too much shitting on the IDF and not enough acceptance of the necessity of what the IDF is actually doing. Hell, as far as I am concerned, there is not enough appreciation for the restraint that the IDF is exercising. This is part of the Palestinian apologism that I described earlier. Rationality is something the conflict is missing, agreed. But "blind-eyeing" the issues at hand is as dangerous and dumb. What you're doing is reducing lives to numbers on paper. Not to mention, i can't see the "restraint" you're talking of. They're not restraining themselves. They pay back a rocket tenfolds. How is that "restrained"? IDF is proven to have used palestinian civilians as bulletshields, is that restrained? The use of white phosphor (you know, the stuff banned by the geneva conventions after the US went haywire with that stuff), is that restrained? Don't give me that bullshit of "they're smokescreens", in a retaliating attack on a "known missile-location" doesn't need to be smokescreened. If you fire "smokescreens" into a dense populated area without the slightest presence there to protect it with, then it's nothing more than an excuse to use extremely disgusting weaponry against civilian areas. I'm sorry. I don't see where the IDF "restrains" itself, just because they don't act like the world of 70 years ago and just carpetbomb everything. Edit: and no. There shouldn't be any acceptance to what the IDF is doing, since all they do is fuel the conflict. They do nothing to end the conflict. What they should do is grow some balls, go down there and kill the terrorists like they're supposed to. All they're doing is growing the next generation of hamas-terrorists. I agree that the IDF should "end" the conflict. Do you know what that would entail? Full blown occupation of Gaza (and probably the West Bank) again, killing/rounding up all militants, subjugation of the Palestinian people, and a whole host of other actions that would inevitably lead massive collateral damage and loss of civilian life. Annihilation of one side or the other is the only thing that is going to end the conflict over there. After 40 years of trying, I think it's safe to say that we're just kidding ourselves if we think that there will ever be a peaceful and diplomatic solution.
The slow occupation of Gaza (read settlements) by Israelies is probably one of the reasons they say they are fighting in the first place. If there is one thing to learn from the recent middle eastern wars its that occupying an area with a military wont stop armed conflict from happening in that area and if anything being occupied causes more people to want to fight.
There will be no peace in that region until both sides decide they are willing to give up a little bit (probably Israel might have to give up more but that's because its in the position of strength) and until both sides truly see the futility of the whole thing they will both continue fighting and both will point to the bad things done by the other side and make an argument that it is the other sides fault.
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On July 24 2014 05:02 JimmiC wrote:
I don't know why you all take sides. Both are wrong who cares who's more wrong? The amount of human tragedy on both sides is crazy. And all the money spent on the war and fighting if it went to positive things everything would be so much better. As long as even outsiders keep blaming one side or the other of course the people with in it are going to.
At some point they are going to have to think with the perspective of the other side, realize that both have had untold loses, and grow up and be the bigger man, and get along. There is going to be no winner only losers if they keep doing this.
Whats truly sad is we know what the treaty will look like. We know what it would have looked like 20 years ago, we know what it will look like 20 years from now but neither side wants to give up anything and both sides seem to want to "get something" out of the fighting not realizing that all they are getting is a lot of pointless death.
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On July 24 2014 04:56 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 04:39 Nyxisto wrote:On July 24 2014 04:31 Sub40APM wrote:On July 24 2014 04:22 Nyxisto wrote:
I actually think a two state solution(with the current ruling forces in Palestine) will never work,nor would it be good for the Palestinian people, given what we have witnessed over the last few decades. I think at this point it would just be for the best if Israel takes control of the Gaza strip, kicks the Hamas out, and tries to build up the region. Maybe at some point you can give them independence, or their own state after the region has reached stability.
But just splitting the land in two now would result in a radical Islamic state which will just be as bad for the people as it is in any of the other Islamic countries in the middle-east. I don't have any prejudices against a moderate Islam, like it is practised in many Asian countries or in Europe. But the radical branch of Islam that is prevalent in the middle-east, which by it's nature is imperialistic and inhumane, will do no good for the people inside or outside of it. Israel was in Gaza from 67 to what, 05? Did they kick out Hamas? No. Israel unfortunately in occupied territories is primarily focused on promoting colonists over everything else. At least these right wing guys. No, sadly they didn't manage to bring peace to the region, but the population certainly had it better than under the reign of their glorious Islamistic liberators. We have seen several times now how religious fanaticism has dragged down whole countries in the middle-east. People are complaining that 'critique of Israel' is not veiled anti-Semitism, but seeing what radical Islam has done to the region and still supporting that these forces should be in control of the region can not be founded in anything but deep hate for the Israeli people. Cute strawman. Feel free to quote any post stating that. Small hint before you waste your time: you can't. Since nobody stated that. I don't understand how you can be so adamant that being against IDF "tactics" somehow implies "pro-hamas". That's logic used by kids in a sandbox, if anywhere.
You do at least read what I'm posting, right? I've never said people write that, I claimed people think it and that Anti-Semitism is their motive for their 'Israel-criticism".
And many people in this thread actually seem to be 'pro-Hamas'. Just go through the pages. There have been at least 10 people in this thread that claim that Israel has no right to exist, that was the Hamas does is legitimate, or that Israel is literally Hitler.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 23 2014 08:22 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Genocide by attrition. On July 23 2014 08:39 Cloud9157 wrote:
As we've seen before, Israel is bat shit crazy and will destroy anyone that threatens them. Sadly, events like this inevitably take the lives of hundreds (possibly thousands, in the coming months) of innocent people. I hope an understanding will somehow be reached, and the loss of innocent lives is kept to a minimum.
On July 23 2014 09:29 Shiragaku wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 09:18 Sub40APM wrote:On July 23 2014 09:14 Shiragaku wrote:On July 23 2014 08:44 Sub40APM wrote:On July 23 2014 08:40 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On July 23 2014 08:35 Jockmcplop wrote:This war makes me feel hopeless about life. Why would people hate each other this much?There isn't even an aggressor, or a reason for any of it based on any recent history, just a back and forth shit slinging contest. Obviously the Palestinians come off far worse because they don't have the technology, support, money or weapons. Is it an oversimplification to say that it basically comes down to natural human racism and the consequences of it in our society? Anyway, i hope a country with actual influence and money stands up for Palestine one day. Seems like the Israelis can get away with whatever they want and everyone is too scared to stand against them. Religion. Look up interviews with settlers moving into illegal settlements. God's chosen people etc. The settlers and Hamas are literally indistinguishable to me. They sound exactly the same "well go clearly gave this land to me so time to die everyone else" There is a huge difference between a nutjob who feels entitled to someone's home due to an ideology and a nutjob who is legitimately defending their homeland. The Red Army during World War II was filled with batshit crazy Stalinists, but that did not make their right to defend their homeland any less legitimate. Hamas doesnt want just 'its' homes, it also wants areas where Jews have been living for generations. Hamas' claim to all of 'Palestine' is about as valid as the natives to the Americas. Surprisingly, Hamas's position on the entire region is pretty moderate. Basically, they are willing to accept a reality of a June 1967 border but they will never accept the legitimacy of Israel. On July 24 2014 01:08 xM(Z wrote:
citizenship or no citizenship, the way germans learn in schools that nazis were bad, Israelis should learn in schools that occupying Palestine is bad; but that never happens, right?.
User was warned for this post
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why didn't we see this kind of resistance when the British or the Ottoman Turks were ruling the region? Was it because resistant fighters had a harder time getting their hands on weapons back then? Or was it because the Brits and the Turks were better than Israel at stamping out any form of dissent before it materializes?
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On July 24 2014 05:07 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 04:56 m4ini wrote:On July 24 2014 04:39 Nyxisto wrote:On July 24 2014 04:31 Sub40APM wrote:On July 24 2014 04:22 Nyxisto wrote:
I actually think a two state solution(with the current ruling forces in Palestine) will never work,nor would it be good for the Palestinian people, given what we have witnessed over the last few decades. I think at this point it would just be for the best if Israel takes control of the Gaza strip, kicks the Hamas out, and tries to build up the region. Maybe at some point you can give them independence, or their own state after the region has reached stability.
But just splitting the land in two now would result in a radical Islamic state which will just be as bad for the people as it is in any of the other Islamic countries in the middle-east. I don't have any prejudices against a moderate Islam, like it is practised in many Asian countries or in Europe. But the radical branch of Islam that is prevalent in the middle-east, which by it's nature is imperialistic and inhumane, will do no good for the people inside or outside of it. Israel was in Gaza from 67 to what, 05? Did they kick out Hamas? No. Israel unfortunately in occupied territories is primarily focused on promoting colonists over everything else. At least these right wing guys. No, sadly they didn't manage to bring peace to the region, but the population certainly had it better than under the reign of their glorious Islamistic liberators. We have seen several times now how religious fanaticism has dragged down whole countries in the middle-east. People are complaining that 'critique of Israel' is not veiled anti-Semitism, but seeing what radical Islam has done to the region and still supporting that these forces should be in control of the region can not be founded in anything but deep hate for the Israeli people. Cute strawman. Feel free to quote any post stating that. Small hint before you waste your time: you can't. Since nobody stated that. I don't understand how you can be so adamant that being against IDF "tactics" somehow implies "pro-hamas". That's logic used by kids in a sandbox, if anywhere. You do at least read what I'm posting, right? I've never said people write that, I claimed people think it and that Anti-Semitism is their motive for their 'Israel-criticism". And many people in this thread actually seem to be 'pro-Hamas'. Just go through the pages. There have been at least 10 people in this thread that claim that Israel has no right to exist, that was the Hamas does is legitimate, or that Israel is literally Hitler.
Interesting, so far i've yet to see a proper poster claiming that, apparently those at least 10 people here completely went past me. If you recall, i'm quite active here too. What i said is that they act like what they hate most, fascists. Not their attacks or the bs about genocide, but how they act towards their own people who don't support the war. And to not see the parallels is naive at best.
Edit: wow, your spoiler is all you got? One oneliner, one calling israel batshit crazy, one simply stating the fact that hamas won't ever accept israel, and, i give you that, one not so smart person?
First of all, that's far less than 10, second of all, if you want to call these postings Pro-Hamas, .. Nah, not saying it.
edit2: actually i will.
You seem to have no grasp at all about communication between persons. If somebody tells you he's against bananas, doesn't automatically mean he loves strawberries. That's literally the easiest way to look for a fight and bait flames.
Somebody calling israel batshit crazy does NOT state that hamas is a savior. Somebody criticising israels action is NOT trying to justify hamas actions. I would've never thought that this has to be explained on TL of all places.
That's as retarded as saying that criticising the NSA scandal as a german makes you pro-taliban, it's so dumb i don't even know what to say.
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@ m4ini
we also have your occasional public Anti-Semite :
+ Show Spoiler +On July 23 2014 18:24 xM(Z wrote:
anti-semite here, in this case, and since it's not a crime (as far as i know) i don't care if i am one.
reason being that palestinian people have no one: Hamas screws them, Israelis kill them, Fatah screws them, Israelis kill them, international community is waiting for them to slowly die.
there is no doubt in my mind that Israel could've ended this war a long time ago but, without a war, they couldn't get more land.
no, it's not about religion. it's about land. it's always about land, it has always been about land. money and land.
religion is just a tool.
There are many more, I'm not going to dig up every single one of them.
It's also funny that a mod with 20k posts can just accuse a country of genocide. (in a conflict which has cost 15-20k lives over half a century, while both populations have been growing constantly). But fuck it, it's Israel right? What would a good debate about Israel be if we had not 10 outright lies about the Jewish people on every page?
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On July 24 2014 05:07 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 04:56 m4ini wrote:On July 24 2014 04:39 Nyxisto wrote:On July 24 2014 04:31 Sub40APM wrote:On July 24 2014 04:22 Nyxisto wrote:
I actually think a two state solution(with the current ruling forces in Palestine) will never work,nor would it be good for the Palestinian people, given what we have witnessed over the last few decades. I think at this point it would just be for the best if Israel takes control of the Gaza strip, kicks the Hamas out, and tries to build up the region. Maybe at some point you can give them independence, or their own state after the region has reached stability.
But just splitting the land in two now would result in a radical Islamic state which will just be as bad for the people as it is in any of the other Islamic countries in the middle-east. I don't have any prejudices against a moderate Islam, like it is practised in many Asian countries or in Europe. But the radical branch of Islam that is prevalent in the middle-east, which by it's nature is imperialistic and inhumane, will do no good for the people inside or outside of it. Israel was in Gaza from 67 to what, 05? Did they kick out Hamas? No. Israel unfortunately in occupied territories is primarily focused on promoting colonists over everything else. At least these right wing guys. No, sadly they didn't manage to bring peace to the region, but the population certainly had it better than under the reign of their glorious Islamistic liberators. We have seen several times now how religious fanaticism has dragged down whole countries in the middle-east. People are complaining that 'critique of Israel' is not veiled anti-Semitism, but seeing what radical Islam has done to the region and still supporting that these forces should be in control of the region can not be founded in anything but deep hate for the Israeli people. Cute strawman. Feel free to quote any post stating that. Small hint before you waste your time: you can't. Since nobody stated that. I don't understand how you can be so adamant that being against IDF "tactics" somehow implies "pro-hamas". That's logic used by kids in a sandbox, if anywhere. You do at least read what I'm posting, right? I've never said people write that, I claimed people think it and that Anti-Semitism is their motive for their 'Israel-criticism". And many people in this thread actually seem to be 'pro-Hamas'. Just go through the pages. There have been at least 10 people in this thread that claim that Israel has no right to exist, that was the Hamas does is legitimate, or that Israel is literally Hitler. + Show Spoiler +On July 23 2014 08:22 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Genocide by attrition. On July 23 2014 08:39 Cloud9157 wrote:
As we've seen before, Israel is bat shit crazy and will destroy anyone that threatens them. Sadly, events like this inevitably take the lives of hundreds (possibly thousands, in the coming months) of innocent people. I hope an understanding will somehow be reached, and the loss of innocent lives is kept to a minimum.
On July 23 2014 09:29 Shiragaku wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 09:18 Sub40APM wrote:On July 23 2014 09:14 Shiragaku wrote:On July 23 2014 08:44 Sub40APM wrote:On July 23 2014 08:40 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On July 23 2014 08:35 Jockmcplop wrote:This war makes me feel hopeless about life. Why would people hate each other this much?There isn't even an aggressor, or a reason for any of it based on any recent history, just a back and forth shit slinging contest. Obviously the Palestinians come off far worse because they don't have the technology, support, money or weapons. Is it an oversimplification to say that it basically comes down to natural human racism and the consequences of it in our society? Anyway, i hope a country with actual influence and money stands up for Palestine one day. Seems like the Israelis can get away with whatever they want and everyone is too scared to stand against them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk2-ZXAWkfg#t=2741 Religion. Look up interviews with settlers moving into illegal settlements. God's chosen people etc. The settlers and Hamas are literally indistinguishable to me. They sound exactly the same "well go clearly gave this land to me so time to die everyone else" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTY There is a huge difference between a nutjob who feels entitled to someone's home due to an ideology and a nutjob who is legitimately defending their homeland. The Red Army during World War II was filled with batshit crazy Stalinists, but that did not make their right to defend their homeland any less legitimate. Hamas doesnt want just 'its' homes, it also wants areas where Jews have been living for generations. Hamas' claim to all of 'Palestine' is about as valid as the natives to the Americas. Surprisingly, Hamas's position on the entire region is pretty moderate. Basically, they are willing to accept a reality of a June 1967 border but they will never accept the legitimacy of Israel. On July 24 2014 01:08 xM(Z wrote:
citizenship or no citizenship, the way germans learn in schools that nazis were bad, Israelis should learn in schools that occupying Palestine is bad; but that never happens, right?.
User was warned for this post
And you're in here pretending Israel is the shining beacon of humanism that can do no better and that Hamas shouldn't exist (when hamas's influence is entirely a product of Israel's non-stop abuse of Palestinians after the initial abuse by Britain and the U.N.).
As to the discussion in general, the main reason the fighting continues is because it benefits those in power on both sides. Military action and civilian deaths on both sides legitimize the leadership because of racism and nationalism.
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On July 24 2014 05:24 Nyxisto wrote:@ m4ini we also have your occasional public Anti-Semite : + Show Spoiler +On July 23 2014 18:24 xM(Z wrote:
anti-semite here, in this case, and since it's not a crime (as far as i know) i don't care if i am one.
reason being that palestinian people have no one: Hamas screws them, Israelis kill them, Fatah screws them, Israelis kill them, international community is waiting for them to slowly die.
there is no doubt in my mind that Israel could've ended this war a long time ago but, without a war, they couldn't get more land.
no, it's not about religion. it's about land. it's always about land, it has always been about land. money and land.
religion is just a tool. There are many more, I'm not going to dig up every single one of them. It's also funny that a mod with 20k posts can just accuse a country of genocide. (in a conflict which has cost 15k lives over half a century, while both populations have been growing constantly). But fuck it, it's Israel right? What would a good debate about Israel be if we had not 10 outright lies about the Jewish people on every page?
You already quoted that person in your last post, it's the "not so smart person" i talked about, ergo irrelevant.
So far you managed to dig up one. That's not what i call "full of pro-hamas", not even that guy. He's (from his own explanation) an anti-semite, and that also doesn't necessarily mean pro-hamas.
I can tell you whatelse is disturbing a good discussion: made up facts like you do. Debunk lies instead of just claiming "there's 10 lies every page". There isn't. What you want is a circlejerk about the legitimacy of israel, not a debate.
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On July 24 2014 05:23 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 05:11 ref4 wrote:
why didn't we see this kind of resistance when the British or the Ottoman Turks were ruling the region? Was it because resistant fighters had a harder time getting their hands on weapons back then? Or was it because the Brits and the Turks were better than Israel at stamping out any form of dissent before it materializes? Most likely because of both. It was much harder to organize when there wasn't the communication, also there was no media so if the guy in charge decided to slaughter a whole bunch to get one bad apple, then he did. And when people knew this they were less likely to hide any one. And it was way harder to transport weapons, especially that do the type of damage they do now. It's unwinable from both sides and a huge waste of human life and money to keep it up.
I mean at this point would it be better if a foreign super power steps in and occupy both Israel and Gaza lol since neither of them is willing to play nice.
Go China go!
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Guys. I have this bullet proof window at my house, and for the past 3 years little kids from my neighbor's house have been throwing rocks at my bullet proof window. Well i've had enough. Out of self defense, I am going to go and kill them with my US supplied weapons, which I have a lot of in my closet. It doesn't matter that my window is bullet proof and the rocks don't do anything, I still feel endangered that one of these rocks might break and cause damage. Also, the little kids are throwing rocks from their parent's bedroom, so it does place the blame on them when I go in and kill them and their parents happen to be in the room with them and get caught in the crossfire. But above all, remember I am doing this in self-defense. #israel #self-defense
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On July 24 2014 05:32 Days wrote:
Guys. I have this bullet proof window at my house, and for the past 3 years little kids from my neighbor's house have been throwing rocks at my bullet proof window. Well i've had enough. Out of self defense, I am going to go and kill them with my US supplied weapons, which I have a lot of in my closet. It doesn't matter that my window is bullet proof and the rocks don't do anything, I still feel endangered that one of these rocks might break and cause damage. Also, the little kids are throwing rocks from their parent's bedroom, so it does place the blame on them when I go in and kill them and their parents happen to be in the room with them and get caught in the crossfire. But above all, remember I am doing this in self-defense. #israel #self-defense
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Maybe if you change rocks with bullets you would get less biased
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On July 24 2014 05:32 Days wrote:
Guys. I have this bullet proof window at my house, and for the past 3 years little kids from my neighbor's house have been throwing rocks at my bullet proof window. Well i've had enough. Out of self defense, I am going to go and kill them with my US supplied weapons, which I have a lot of in my closet. It doesn't matter that my window is bullet proof and the rocks don't do anything, I still feel endangered that one of these rocks might break and cause damage. Also, the little kids are throwing rocks from their parent's bedroom, so it does place the blame on them when I go in and kill them and their parents happen to be in the room with them and get caught in the crossfire. But above all, remember I am doing this in self-defense. #israel #self-defense
User was warned for this post
What's the point of using an an abstract analogy, when what's happening is quite clear?
Try this one. We're both Americans. Let's say Mexico started firing rockets into Texas. Let's say that most of them land in empty fields, but
1) Every single time one is launched, you have to run into a bomb shelter, and stay there for 10 minutes
2) You have to spend millions and millions of dollars to stop the rockets that will be hitting populated areas
3) The occasional missile from Mexico causes damage or death
What do you think America should and would do? C'mon, I can't wait to hear how the fact that "But they usually miss" is relevant.
Also, for the love of god, please don't say something like "But Israel is occupying Gaza". If you want to have that discussion, fine. But your argument is "Since the rockets aren't killing people in Israel, Israel doesn't have a right to defend itself with its military." Defend that.
(Also I'm only starting off with the first half of your argument. We'll get to the part about "killing parents" if you can give me a coherent response to this)
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On July 24 2014 05:48 soon.Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 05:32 Days wrote:
Guys. I have this bullet proof window at my house, and for the past 3 years little kids from my neighbor's house have been throwing rocks at my bullet proof window. Well i've had enough. Out of self defense, I am going to go and kill them with my US supplied weapons, which I have a lot of in my closet. It doesn't matter that my window is bullet proof and the rocks don't do anything, I still feel endangered that one of these rocks might break and cause damage. Also, the little kids are throwing rocks from their parent's bedroom, so it does place the blame on them when I go in and kill them and their parents happen to be in the room with them and get caught in the crossfire. But above all, remember I am doing this in self-defense. #israel #self-defense
User was warned for this post What's the point of using an an abstract analogy, when what's happening is quite clear? Try this one. We're both Americans. Let's say Mexico started firing rockets into Texas. Let's say that most of them land in empty fields, but 1) Every single time one is launched, you have to run into a bomb shelter, and stay there for 10 minutes 2) You have to spend millions and millions of dollars to stop the rockets that will be hitting populated areas 3) The occasional missile from Mexico causes damage or death What do you think America should and would do? C'mon, I can't wait to hear how the fact that "But they usually miss" is relevant. Also, for the love of god, please don't say something like "But Israel is occupying Gaza". If you want to have that discussion, fine. But your argument is "Since the rockets aren't killing people in Israel, Israel doesn't have a right to defend itself with its military." Defend that. (Also I'm only starting off with the first half of your argument. We'll get to the part about "killing parents" if you can give me a coherent response to this)
That's easy. The US would march into Mexico, kill the shit out of everything that moves, put in a puppet-government and be done with it.
Now the other way around. Do you think, the US would actually build a missile shield in the first place, just to retaliate every now and then?
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On July 24 2014 05:48 soon.Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 05:32 Days wrote:
Guys. I have this bullet proof window at my house, and for the past 3 years little kids from my neighbor's house have been throwing rocks at my bullet proof window. Well i've had enough. Out of self defense, I am going to go and kill them with my US supplied weapons, which I have a lot of in my closet. It doesn't matter that my window is bullet proof and the rocks don't do anything, I still feel endangered that one of these rocks might break and cause damage. Also, the little kids are throwing rocks from their parent's bedroom, so it does place the blame on them when I go in and kill them and their parents happen to be in the room with them and get caught in the crossfire. But above all, remember I am doing this in self-defense. #israel #self-defense
User was warned for this post What's the point of using an an abstract analogy, when what's happening is quite clear? Try this one. We're both Americans. Let's say Mexico started firing rockets into Texas. Let's say that most of them land in empty fields, but 1) Every single time one is launched, you have to run into a bomb shelter, and stay there for 10 minutes 2) You have to spend millions and millions of dollars to stop the rockets that will be hitting populated areas 3) The occasional missile from Mexico causes damage or death What do you think America should and would do? C'mon, I can't wait to hear how the fact that "But they usually miss" is relevant. Also, for the love of god, please don't say something like "But Israel is occupying Gaza". If you want to have that discussion, fine. But your argument is "Since the rockets aren't killing people in Israel, Israel doesn't have a right to defend itself with its military." Defend that. (Also I'm only starting off with the first half of your argument. We'll get to the part about "killing parents" if you can give me a coherent response to this)
This is fucking pointless. This can easily be flipped around and Americans would without a doubt be doing the exact same thing the Palestinians are doing. You know, liberty and free markets, second amendment and all that jazz.
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On July 24 2014 05:51 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 05:48 soon.Cloak wrote:On July 24 2014 05:32 Days wrote:
Guys. I have this bullet proof window at my house, and for the past 3 years little kids from my neighbor's house have been throwing rocks at my bullet proof window. Well i've had enough. Out of self defense, I am going to go and kill them with my US supplied weapons, which I have a lot of in my closet. It doesn't matter that my window is bullet proof and the rocks don't do anything, I still feel endangered that one of these rocks might break and cause damage. Also, the little kids are throwing rocks from their parent's bedroom, so it does place the blame on them when I go in and kill them and their parents happen to be in the room with them and get caught in the crossfire. But above all, remember I am doing this in self-defense. #israel #self-defense
User was warned for this post What's the point of using an an abstract analogy, when what's happening is quite clear? Try this one. We're both Americans. Let's say Mexico started firing rockets into Texas. Let's say that most of them land in empty fields, but 1) Every single time one is launched, you have to run into a bomb shelter, and stay there for 10 minutes 2) You have to spend millions and millions of dollars to stop the rockets that will be hitting populated areas 3) The occasional missile from Mexico causes damage or death What do you think America should and would do? C'mon, I can't wait to hear how the fact that "But they usually miss" is relevant. Also, for the love of god, please don't say something like "But Israel is occupying Gaza". If you want to have that discussion, fine. But your argument is "Since the rockets aren't killing people in Israel, Israel doesn't have a right to defend itself with its military." Defend that. (Also I'm only starting off with the first half of your argument. We'll get to the part about "killing parents" if you can give me a coherent response to this) That's easy. The US would march into Mexico, kill the shit out of everything that moves, put in a puppet-government and be done with it. Now the other way around. Do you think, the US would actually build a missile shield in the first place, just to retaliate every now and then?
Um...no, but I'm not sure if we're disagreeing about anything. I'd say Israel's missile defense system is a show of a crazy amount of restraint. Is that the point you were making?
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EPT
