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On July 18 2014 07:56 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I don't understand the calls for NATO/UN to intervene. It is probably an accident, no matter who it turned out fired the missile. Why would NATO do anything? Also "intervention." A euphemism the US military can be proud off. In other words, invasion, war. The UN can't even stop Isreal from doing whatever it wants, never mind Ukraine.
What do you mean by an "accident"?
This would be like a man walking into a crowded shopping mall with a blind fold on unloading an assault rifle wildly around him and then denying the damage he's caused claiming hes not responsible because he couldn't see where he was firing.
They were aware commerical airlines were operating in the area.
On July 18 2014 07:56 Zaros wrote: An armed minority of eastern ukraine want to join like crimea to russia they don't want a federal state. The first report of the tragedy is obviously going to come from the ukrainian government, it happened in ukraine and the separatists don't have a voice on the world stage where else could it be first reported 0.o?
I was referring not to report of a crash but WHO to BLAME. Instead of investigating plane crash they were the first to point out who shot down the plane. And it's getting too much offtopic so last post on this from me is that Russia officially denied Eastern Ukraine to join as a territory and they even advised not to go with referendum which triggered civil war. Referendum was about federalization, not joining Russia.
Do you only watch/read russian media?
I'm in the same country you are now and I didn't watch Russian media for 3 years. PM me the media that states the topic of referendum in Eastern Ukraine was joining Russian Federation. It's way out of this current thread - I'm 99% banned just for continuing this topic.
These missiles do distinguish between civilian and military aircraft, in case of a civilian plane a warning and the transponder code would be displayed.
On July 18 2014 07:11 zeo wrote: So why does Kiev have such a large amount of sophisticated anti-air missiles in the area? Where are these rebel planes?
You need only one anti-air vehicle to shoot down a civilian plane. You believe 'nobody' who reported that plane was shot down from the ground? Yet no name of source was mentioned, all they say is 'official' and that means 'nobody'. Ukrainian army doesn't have anti-air system near Russian border - are you kidding me?
FFS why is it so hard to accept that an accident happened, the separatists - inexperienced with the use of such equipment - thought they were shooting down a military cargo plane but in fact shot down an airliner. Nobody (sane, anyway) is accusing them of doing it deliberately!
Why do you have to construct elaborate conspiracies? Why can't you accept the most obvious, logical truth that ALL the evidence is pointing towards?
Any credible source/person will never take responsibility and allow to use their name to report unconfirmed info or bullshit of any sort. It's the exact reason why there was no names mentioned and believe me all news agencies are dying to get a name to sign under their speculation to make it official. Separatists shot down 6-8 Ukranian military jets SU-25 and choose your words when you say inexperienced.
Off topic. 20+ Years ago one US newspaper (respected newspaper) published that Xylitol causes cancer based on one 'no name' professor's research. People like YOU believed it and stopped buying Xylitol, soon they went bankrupt. After Rigley's Spearmint instantly bought Xylitol and published another article in same newspaper by a 'name' professor to deny it. Xylitol never caused cancer and newspaper was payed to give a 'nobody' source to fool people. And I think you know who wanted Xylitol to stop owning them in sugar free gum business Time changes but reading this forum I see people NEVER change...
You people are disgusting. Civilians are dead and you use it as an excuse to prattle your sick conspiracy theories. That nonsense off topic post just proves your high opinion of yourself.
Those are FACTS. 2001 Ukrainian army shot down Russian TU-154 and 78 people on board died. Separatists shot down 6-8 jet fighters and 1 military cargo plane - facts. Exact numbers of jets are not of any matter because I'm arguing the point that separatist are experienced enough to shoot down military aircraft. Yet some people already know more than BBC and confirmed that plane was shot down by separatists.
Military cargo plane had also near hundred soldiers. 2001 was a tragedy which officially confirmed many times by all sides. Separatists are dumb enough to shoot a civilian airplane.
The seperatists reported that they had shot down a cargo plane right when contact was lost with the civilian plane. No cargo plane is missing. It atleast SEEMS clear what happened.
If this was indeed the doing of pro-russian separatists on the orders/oversight of that ex-russian KGB separatist leader in that area... That dude, or whoever gave the orders to fire that missile and made the mistake (under the assumption it was indeed a mistake and total mis-target).. They're in a massive, massive pile of shit, because they just caused such a PR, international shitstorm for putin that they had better go into hiding, and fast.
On July 18 2014 07:11 zeo wrote: So why does Kiev have such a large amount of sophisticated anti-air missiles in the area? Where are these rebel planes?
You need only one anti-air vehicle to shoot down a civilian plane. You believe 'nobody' who reported that plane was shot down from the ground? Yet no name of source was mentioned, all they say is 'official' and that means 'nobody'. Ukrainian army doesn't have anti-air system near Russian border - are you kidding me?
FFS why is it so hard to accept that an accident happened, the separatists - inexperienced with the use of such equipment - thought they were shooting down a military cargo plane but in fact shot down an airliner. Nobody (sane, anyway) is accusing them of doing it deliberately!
Why do you have to construct elaborate conspiracies? Why can't you accept the most obvious, logical truth that ALL the evidence is pointing towards?
Because he would feel bad about it. From his perspective the situation looks like this: Russians and separatists are the good guys, while USA/West and Ukraine are the bad guys. Clearly the good guys could not do such a terrible thing. So that must be Ukrainians. Easy. Some people would go at great lengths not to admit mistakes and feel bad about it.
On July 18 2014 08:08 Derez wrote: These missiles do distinguish between civilian and military aircraft, in case of a civilian plane a warning and the transponder code would be displayed.
The Buk that's in the pictures didn't have the target acquisition radar, only the launcher.
On July 18 2014 08:10 Enzymatic wrote: If this was indeed the doing of pro-russian separatists on the orders/oversight of that ex-russian KGB separatist leader in that area... That dude, or whoever gave the orders to fire that missile and made the mistake (under the assumption it was indeed a mistake and total mis-target).. They're in a massive, massive pile of shit, because they just caused such a PR, international shitstorm for putin that they had better go into hiding, and fast.
Even looking at the old models of BUK it's clear that simple angry civilians couldn't work such systems. So either Russia is just handing over heavy weapons to paramilitary groups who had very little training and/or observed by Russian GRU etc or worse Russian crew fired at what they thought was a combat plane.
I find it a bit disgusting that a lot of people in this threat seem to care more about shifting blame than the fact that almost 300 people, including many children and families, just tragically died.
On July 18 2014 08:10 Enzymatic wrote: If this was indeed the doing of pro-russian separatists on the orders/oversight of that ex-russian KGB separatist leader in that area... That dude, or whoever gave the orders to fire that missile and made the mistake (under the assumption it was indeed a mistake and total mis-target).. They're in a massive, massive pile of shit, because they just caused such a PR, international shitstorm for putin that they had better go into hiding, and fast.
Even looking at the old models of BUK it's clear that simple angry civilians couldn't work such systems. So either Russia is just handing over heavy weapons to paramilitary groups who had very little training and/or observed by Russian GRU etc or worse Russian crew fired at what they thought was a combat plane.
There have been quite a few reports of Russian active servicemen in Ukraine last few days.
On July 18 2014 08:12 Cheerio wrote: Because he would feel bad about it. From his perspective the situation looks like this: Russians and separatists are the good guys, while USA/West and Ukraine are the bad guys. Clearly the good guys could not do such a terrible thing. So that must be Ukrainians. Easy. Some people would go at great lengths not to admit mistakes and feel bad about it.
Quote me where I stated any of what you are saying. I pointed out that if people keep speculation than Ukrainian army has far more capabilities to shoot down a plane than separatists and that is common fucking sense. Have fun finding the 'good' and 'bad' guys in your country - your clearly good in it.
Just quote my post of saying 'Putin was operating the Buk which shot down a plane'.
On July 18 2014 08:20 Tarias wrote: I find it a bit disgusting that a lot of people in this threat seem to care more about shifting blame than the fact that almost 300 people, including many children and families, just tragically died.
On July 18 2014 08:20 Tarias wrote: I find it a bit disgusting that a lot of people in this threat seem to care more about shifting blame than the fact that almost 300 people, including many children and families, just tragically died.
Its human nature. No one likes to dwell on the specifics of horror, how many people are going to look up the passengers pictures or watch the crying videos of victim's families, and why, is their sadness going to help you cope? abstracting this to a geopolitical thing is a coping mechanism. Also, part of our human nature is the search for justice. you cant do anything about the dead but you can bring back the perpetrators to justice, which will, again, help you cope with the reality of a world where horribly things happen to innocent people at near-random*.
*I say near random because despite the facts below the fold + Show Spoiler +
someone pressed a button and is clearly directly responsible, or the geopolitical situation in the area was created by willful action of people -- and lets say I am neutral about this and I am not going to say specific people, or that the airline seemed to have entered the area to save fuel -- seems like almost no other airlines fly over the combat zone, so perhaps we can have an investigation on Malaysia Air's flight planing as well
the people who booked their trips from Amsterdam to wherever they were going had 0 expectation to be involved in the Ukrainian crisis. So it feels random. And we as peoples dont like randomly terrible outcomes and if we cant have certainty of defeating randomness then we can at least have the certainty of justice.
WASHINGTON—U.S. intelligence agencies have drawn preliminary conclusions that a Malaysia Airlines 3786.KU -2.17% Boeing BA -1.21% 777 crashed in eastern Ukraine after it was struck by a surface-to-air missile, a U.S. official said, adding that agencies are divided over two questions: the location of the launch site and who was responsible for firing the missile.
The intelligence agencies tracked the launch of a missile and the explosion of the plane, according to the official, confirming that the plane most likely was shot down.
The official said an early reading of data collected by the U.S. wasn't enough to pinpoint the location of the missile that was fired, leaving some doubt about responsibility.
EPT
Time changes but reading this forum I see people NEVER change...
