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On July 18 2014 07:33 3Form wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 07:29 LegalLord wrote:On July 18 2014 07:27 3Form wrote:On July 18 2014 07:17 Hazzyboy wrote:On July 18 2014 07:11 zeo wrote:
So why does Kiev have such a large amount of sophisticated anti-air missiles in the area? Where are these rebel planes? You need only one anti-air vehicle to shoot down a civilian plane. You believe 'nobody' who reported that plane was shot down from the ground? Yet no name of source was mentioned, all they say is 'official' and that means 'nobody'. Ukrainian army doesn't have anti-air system near Russian border - are you kidding me? FFS why is it so hard to accept that an accident happened, the separatists - inexperienced with the use of such equipment - thought they were shooting down a military cargo plane but in fact shot down an airliner. Nobody (sane, anyway) is accusing them of doing it deliberately! Why do you have to construct elaborate conspiracies? Why can't you accept the most obvious, logical truth that ALL the evidence is pointing towards? What reliable evidence points to them doing it? The only "evidence" so far has been Twitter speculation and SBU releases, which are not even close to reliable. This shit on the second page: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BswdhTUCQAEcM2r.jpg:largeThis makes much more sense than any convoluted Ukrainian military shoots down civilian airliner to frame the separatists and solidify international bla bla bla
"Makes more sense" is hardly evidence in a case like this - it's a baseless claim for a hell of an assertion.
I could make the claim that Ukraine is more likely to shoot it down because they have a history of shooting down passenger jets - just as baseless and biased. It doesn't prove a thing, and it's not evidence.
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On July 18 2014 07:39 Hazzyboy wrote:
Separatists shot down 6-8 Ukranian military jets SU-25 and choose your words when you say inexperienced.
So now you are telling me they did it deliberately?
These radar SAMs don't distinguish between "friend or foe", it takes an experienced operator to discern the nature of any radar contacts. Presumably the only low flying aircraft have been Ukranian military, and these separatists have been firing indiscriminately. In this instance they thought they'd detected a military plane but were in fact mistaken.
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On July 18 2014 07:22 Hazzyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 07:17 Iplaythings wrote:
Worst thing is that as soeone pointed out is that there's no mutual trusted partner who would make a neutral investigation (that both parties woiuld trust ot be neutral) so this might turn out to be a "blame the other guy before I am blamed" thing and I'd hate to see it. How is Russia involved in this again? It happened in Ukrainian air space not Russian and there was no official confirmation of Russian missile yet. Separatist as you call them are Ukrainian civilians who are fighting a civil war against government for federalization of East- I fail to see Russia being involved in this yet!
You should go read up on the whole conflict one more time or watch other stuff than Russian media sources on the conflict. It is pretty clear that Russia indirectly support these rebels and it's not far fetched to believe that the sophisticated air-defense system needed to bring down an airplane at that altitude could have been provided by the russians.
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On July 18 2014 07:39 Hazzyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 07:27 3Form wrote:On July 18 2014 07:17 Hazzyboy wrote:On July 18 2014 07:11 zeo wrote:
So why does Kiev have such a large amount of sophisticated anti-air missiles in the area? Where are these rebel planes? You need only one anti-air vehicle to shoot down a civilian plane. You believe 'nobody' who reported that plane was shot down from the ground? Yet no name of source was mentioned, all they say is 'official' and that means 'nobody'. Ukrainian army doesn't have anti-air system near Russian border - are you kidding me? FFS why is it so hard to accept that an accident happened, the separatists - inexperienced with the use of such equipment - thought they were shooting down a military cargo plane but in fact shot down an airliner. Nobody (sane, anyway) is accusing them of doing it deliberately! Why do you have to construct elaborate conspiracies? Why can't you accept the most obvious, logical truth that ALL the evidence is pointing towards? Any credible source/person will never take responsibility and allow to use their name to report unconfirmed info or bullshit of any sort. It's the exact reason why there was no names mentioned and believe me all news agencies are dying to get a name to sign under their speculation to make it official. Separatists shot down 6-8 Ukranian military jets SU-25 and choose your words when you say inexperienced. Off topic. 20+ Years ago one US newspaper (respected newspaper) published that Xylitol causes cancer based on one 'no name' professor's research. People like YOU believed it and stopped buying Xylitol, soon they went bankrupt. After Rigley's Spearmint instantly bought Xylitol and published another article in same newspaper by a 'name' professor to deny it. Xylitol never caused cancer and newspaper was payed to give a 'nobody' source to fool people. And I think you know who wanted Xylitol to stop owning them in sugar free gum business  Time changes but reading this forum I see people NEVER change...
You people are disgusting. Civilians are dead and you use it as an excuse to prattle your sick conspiracy theories. That nonsense off topic post just proves your high opinion of yourself.
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On July 18 2014 07:40 Holy_AT wrote:
If they want to go to Russia so badly they can go and settle in Siberia, there is enough space there for them instead of shooting down civilian planes of other countries.
These separatists are as bad as bin laden or 911 and should be hunted down and eradicated accordingly.
These are no freedom fighters these are Russian sponsored terrorist militia.
Seems like you got better media than I do here in UK - still no confirmation of who did it.
And just to clear things about separatists - tens of thousands women and children already moved to Russia, it's just men staying to fight the government armed with AK-47's. Maybe you know more than me but my understanding is that Eastern Ukraine wanted federalization like Scotland has from England - to still be a part of Ukraine but have own government, tax system etc. but instead of making a debate or voting they just got declared a civil war.
Again first report of tragedy came from Ukrainian government - they reacted faster than anyone else and put blame on separatists being terrorists.
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So victims of this attack were: 154 Dutch, 27 Australian, 23 American, 23 Malaysian, 11 Indonesian, 6 British, 4 French, 4 German, 4 Belgian, 3 Filipino , 1 Canadian.
I wonder if you could interpret this incident to justify a NATO intervention in Ukraine according to Art. 5? (independent of who exactly pulled the trigger)
I guess its a matter of interpretation and probably not severe enough for the US to start a 3rd WW over this.
Russia cant allow a NATO intervention in Ukraine.
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On July 18 2014 07:47 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 07:33 3Form wrote:On July 18 2014 07:29 LegalLord wrote:On July 18 2014 07:27 3Form wrote:On July 18 2014 07:17 Hazzyboy wrote:On July 18 2014 07:11 zeo wrote:
So why does Kiev have such a large amount of sophisticated anti-air missiles in the area? Where are these rebel planes? You need only one anti-air vehicle to shoot down a civilian plane. You believe 'nobody' who reported that plane was shot down from the ground? Yet no name of source was mentioned, all they say is 'official' and that means 'nobody'. Ukrainian army doesn't have anti-air system near Russian border - are you kidding me? FFS why is it so hard to accept that an accident happened, the separatists - inexperienced with the use of such equipment - thought they were shooting down a military cargo plane but in fact shot down an airliner. Nobody (sane, anyway) is accusing them of doing it deliberately! Why do you have to construct elaborate conspiracies? Why can't you accept the most obvious, logical truth that ALL the evidence is pointing towards? What reliable evidence points to them doing it? The only "evidence" so far has been Twitter speculation and SBU releases, which are not even close to reliable. This shit on the second page: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BswdhTUCQAEcM2r.jpg:largeThis makes much more sense than any convoluted Ukrainian military shoots down civilian airliner to frame the separatists and solidify international bla bla bla "Makes more sense" is hardly evidence in a case like this - it's a baseless claim for a hell of an assertion. I could make the claim that Ukraine is more likely to shoot it down because they have a history of shooting down passenger jets - just as baseless and biased. It doesn't prove a thing, and it's not evidence.
Well what do you think happened? Or do you never form an opinion on anything you have not observed personally?
Look at the news article. Has the downed cargo plane materialised?
(As an aside, I can't verify that news article. I wasn't in Eastern Ukraine, personally)
I wonder what globalresearch.ca has to say about all this.
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On July 18 2014 07:49 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 07:39 Hazzyboy wrote:On July 18 2014 07:27 3Form wrote:On July 18 2014 07:17 Hazzyboy wrote:On July 18 2014 07:11 zeo wrote:
So why does Kiev have such a large amount of sophisticated anti-air missiles in the area? Where are these rebel planes? You need only one anti-air vehicle to shoot down a civilian plane. You believe 'nobody' who reported that plane was shot down from the ground? Yet no name of source was mentioned, all they say is 'official' and that means 'nobody'. Ukrainian army doesn't have anti-air system near Russian border - are you kidding me? FFS why is it so hard to accept that an accident happened, the separatists - inexperienced with the use of such equipment - thought they were shooting down a military cargo plane but in fact shot down an airliner. Nobody (sane, anyway) is accusing them of doing it deliberately! Why do you have to construct elaborate conspiracies? Why can't you accept the most obvious, logical truth that ALL the evidence is pointing towards? Any credible source/person will never take responsibility and allow to use their name to report unconfirmed info or bullshit of any sort. It's the exact reason why there was no names mentioned and believe me all news agencies are dying to get a name to sign under their speculation to make it official. Separatists shot down 6-8 Ukranian military jets SU-25 and choose your words when you say inexperienced. Off topic. 20+ Years ago one US newspaper (respected newspaper) published that Xylitol causes cancer based on one 'no name' professor's research. People like YOU believed it and stopped buying Xylitol, soon they went bankrupt. After Rigley's Spearmint instantly bought Xylitol and published another article in same newspaper by a 'name' professor to deny it. Xylitol never caused cancer and newspaper was payed to give a 'nobody' source to fool people. And I think you know who wanted Xylitol to stop owning them in sugar free gum business Time changes but reading this forum I see people NEVER change... You people are disgusting. Civilians are dead and you use it as an excuse to prattle your sick conspiracy theories. That nonsense off topic post just proves your high opinion of yourself.
Those are FACTS. 2001 Ukrainian army shot down Russian TU-154 and 78 people on board died. Separatists shot down 6-8 jet fighters and 1 military cargo plane - facts. Exact numbers of jets are not of any matter because I'm arguing the point that separatist are experienced enough to shoot down military aircraft.
Yet some people already know more than BBC and confirmed that plane was shot down by separatists.
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On July 18 2014 07:51 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
So victims of this attack were: 154 Dutch, 27 Australian, 23 American, 23 Malaysian, 11 Indonesian, 6 British, 4 French, 4 German, 4 Belgian, 3 Filipino , 1 Canadian.
I wonder if you could interpret this incident to justify a NATO intervention in Ukraine according to Art. 5? (independent of who exactly pulled the trigger)
I guess its a matter of interpretation and probably not severe enough for the US to start a 3rd WW over this.
Russia cant allow a NATO intervention in Ukraine.
If nothing else this is now an international issue, as in the entire world now has interest in the conflict. And this is regardless if the rebels shot down the plane by mistake or not since it's only Russia that could had provided such weapons to the rebels in the first place.
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On July 18 2014 07:49 Hazzyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 07:40 Holy_AT wrote:
If they want to go to Russia so badly they can go and settle in Siberia, there is enough space there for them instead of shooting down civilian planes of other countries.
These separatists are as bad as bin laden or 911 and should be hunted down and eradicated accordingly.
These are no freedom fighters these are Russian sponsored terrorist militia. Seems like you got better media than I do here in UK - still no confirmation of who did it. And just to clear things about separatists - tens of thousands women and children already moved to Russia, it's just men staying to fight the government armed with AK-47's. Maybe you know more than me but my understanding is that Eastern Ukraine wanted federalization like Scotland has from England - to still be a part of Ukraine but have own government, tax system etc. but instead of making a debate or voting they just got declared a civil war. Again first report of tragedy came from Ukrainian government - they reacted faster than anyone else and put blame on separatists being terrorists.
An armed minority of eastern ukraine want to join like crimea to russia they don't want a federal state. The first report of the tragedy is obviously going to come from the ukrainian government, it happened in ukraine and the separatists don't have a voice on the world stage where else could it be first reported 0.o?
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I don't understand the calls for NATO/UN to intervene. It is probably an accident, no matter who it turned out fired the missile. Why would NATO do anything? Also "intervention." A euphemism the US military can be proud off. In other words, invasion, war. The UN can't even stop Isreal from doing whatever it wants, never mind Ukraine.
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On July 18 2014 07:29 Fuell wrote:
Friend of mine was on that plane... Unbelievable.
Condolences man, such a terrible tragedy. Noone should lose friends or family to things like this.
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On July 18 2014 07:56 Zaros wrote:
An armed minority of eastern ukraine want to join like crimea to russia they don't want a federal state. The first report of the tragedy is obviously going to come from the ukrainian government, it happened in ukraine and the separatists don't have a voice on the world stage where else could it be first reported 0.o?
I was referring not to report of a crash but WHO to BLAME. Instead of investigating plane crash they were the first to point out who shot down the plane.
And it's getting too much offtopic so last post on this from me is that Russia officially denied Eastern Ukraine to join as a territory and they even advised not to go with referendum which triggered civil war. Referendum was about federalization, not joining Russia.
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On July 18 2014 07:59 Hazzyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 07:56 Zaros wrote:
An armed minority of eastern ukraine want to join like crimea to russia they don't want a federal state. The first report of the tragedy is obviously going to come from the ukrainian government, it happened in ukraine and the separatists don't have a voice on the world stage where else could it be first reported 0.o? I was referring not to report of a crash but WHO to BLAME. Instead of investigating plane crash they were the first to point out who shot down the plane. And it's getting too much offtopic so last post on this from me is that Russia officially denied Eastern Ukraine to join as a territory and they even advised not to go with referendum which triggered civil war. Referendum was about federalization, not joining Russia.
Do you only watch/read russian media?
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On July 18 2014 07:56 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
I don't understand the calls for NATO/UN to intervene. It is probably an accident, no matter who it turned out fired the missile. Why would NATO do anything?
To stop passenger planes getting shot down? It's not an accident. They fired a rocket to destroy a plane and they succeeded. I don't think they expected to shoot down this specific plane but the fact they did and can't see the difference between this one and their foes is a big problem.
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On July 18 2014 07:29 Fuell wrote:
Friend of mine was on that plane... Unbelievable.
My condolences man, horrible news...
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On July 18 2014 07:56 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
I don't understand the calls for NATO/UN to intervene. It is probably an accident, no matter who it turned out fired the missile. Why would NATO do anything? Also "intervention." A euphemism the US military can be proud off. In other words, invasion, war. The UN can't even stop Isreal from doing whatever it wants, never mind Ukraine.
yeah... kind of gives the impression of everybody just waiting for an "excuse" to finally bomb the shit out of the ukranian separatists. since i can't think of anyone actually profiting from this event, an honest mistake seems rather likely. one of the most horrible kind, and the people responsible should be brought to justice, but still, it's not like there's terrorists that have taken over the eastern ukraine and are now targeting civilians. which is, in my opinion, the only thing that would justify foreign intervention at this point.
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On July 18 2014 07:29 Fuell wrote:
Friend of mine was on that plane... Unbelievable.
I'm srr men ,  plz be strong , there is nothing more i can tell u its horrible.
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On July 18 2014 07:59 Hazzyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2014 07:56 Zaros wrote:
An armed minority of eastern ukraine want to join like crimea to russia they don't want a federal state. The first report of the tragedy is obviously going to come from the ukrainian government, it happened in ukraine and the separatists don't have a voice on the world stage where else could it be first reported 0.o? I was referring not to report of a crash but WHO to BLAME. Instead of investigating plane crash they were the first to point out who shot down the plane. And it's getting too much offtopic so last post on this from me is that Russia officially denied Eastern Ukraine to join as a territory and they even advised not to go with referendum which triggered civil war. Referendum was about federalization, not joining Russia.
This whole thing will become much worse if we continue to view it as an East vs West struggle. :/
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On July 18 2014 07:40 Holy_AT wrote:
This was clearly the act of Russian Separatist everyone knows this.
That is not open for the debate at this stage now, it is a fact.
The only question that is now open to debate is if Russia was unofficially involved by providing aid to these rebels or not.
The Netherlands (~150 dead) and NATO should consider this an act of war and start bombing every separatist SAM site or major staging ground of the Russian separatist.
If they want to go to Russia so badly they can go and settle in Siberia, there is enough space there for them instead of shooting down civilian planes of other countries.
These separatists are as bad as bin laden or 911 and should be hunted down and eradicated accordingly.
These are no freedom fighters these are Russian sponsored terrorist militia.
A fact? What fact? Which proof?
Facts are :
- A plane crashed in easter Ukraine where combats are taking place.
- Russia and Ukraine have the tools to destroy a plane at 11km high
It seems that :
- A ground to air missile destroyed it enough to make it fall without making it blow in peaces.
- Separatist could have access to the technology from ukrainian or russian army
Except the guy who triggered the missile, nobody knows who does what and why..
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EPT
