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Its already been discussed in this thread, Kiev officials confirmed that the BUK systems taken by anti-government forces are not operational.
And who knows what parts for what equipment they've gotten in those convoys from Russia? Who knows anything really some of the separatists are armed from Russia some from captured Ukrainian armories some with the weapons they've had for years as part of paramilitaries in Chechnya and elsewhere in Russia. The separatists aren't going to be convicted or absolved via this road.
Exactly so why do you speculate? I know for sure that Ukrainian army is far better equipped to take down a plane flying 10 km above the ground. Why? To blame on the civilians they fight against.
Good spin, except for the fact that the separatists are the only ones with a recent history of taking down planes.
So why does Kiev have such a large amount of sophisticated anti-air missiles in the area? Where are these rebel planes?
They're afraid of their eastern neighbours - Russians.
Worst thing is that as soeone pointed out is that there's no mutual trusted partner who would make a neutral investigation (that both parties woiuld trust ot be neutral) so this might turn out to be a "blame the other guy before I am blamed" thing and I'd hate to see it.
On July 18 2014 06:47 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Even more reports of looters especially of belongings from bodies
Should be shot on sight imo. Despicable.
Because your comment isnt as Despicable..
Hell if it happened in N. Korea they probably would of ate them for the protein. I'd say we have a better chance of information from a looted cell phone surfacing on the internet than if a government had recovered them and it was remotely incriminating.
Not saying they should of done it, but when someone shoots down a plane of civilians, the people in a war-zone who loot the bodies are not the ones who I find so disgusting.
On July 18 2014 07:17 Iplaythings wrote: Worst thing is that as soeone pointed out is that there's no mutual trusted partner who would make a neutral investigation (that both parties woiuld trust ot be neutral) so this might turn out to be a "blame the other guy before I am blamed" thing and I'd hate to see it.
How is Russia involved in this again? It happened in Ukrainian air space not Russian and there was no official confirmation of Russian missile yet. Separatist as you call them are Ukrainian civilians who are fighting a civil war against government for federalization of East- I fail to see Russia being involved in this yet!
Its already been discussed in this thread, Kiev officials confirmed that the BUK systems taken by anti-government forces are not operational.
And who knows what parts for what equipment they've gotten in those convoys from Russia? Who knows anything really some of the separatists are armed from Russia some from captured Ukrainian armories some with the weapons they've had for years as part of paramilitaries in Chechnya and elsewhere in Russia. The separatists aren't going to be convicted or absolved via this road.
Half a billion dollars worth of sophisticated equipment cannot be just repaired like that on the roadside. Its not that simple, you need serious equipment and facilities to get it back to operational.
You are literally talking out of your ass. Prove any one of the things you just said. 1. That the equipment used was from the same batch of equipment that the SBU said was disabled 2. That the equipment could not have been repaired in separatist territory 3. That the equipment could not have been repaired in the two and a half week time frame since the rebels acquired it.
пресс-центра так называемой "АТО" Алексей Дмитрашковский подтвердил, что в потерянной хунтой воинской части зенитно-ракетного полка ПВО № А-1402 находится зенитный ракетный комплекс «Бук». «Но он нерабочий. Остальные, которые работают, находятся на других стратегических объектах», - заметил он. На вопрос, могут ли ополченцы его починить, Дмитрашковський сказал: «Я не думаю, что это им нужно».
Rough google translate
press center of so-called "ATO" Alexei Dmitrashkovsky confirmed that lost military junta of the anti-missile defense regiment number is A-1402 anti-aircraft missile system "Buk". "But it is junk. The rest of that work are on other strategic sites, "- he said. On the question of whether the militia fix it, Dmitrashkovsky said: "I do not think they need it."
Interesting story don't you think? At a press conference from 29.06.2014 (after the capture of the BUK missiles) ATO officials (Kiev military) stated that BUK systems had indeed been captured but they were nothing more than junk.
On the 29th of June Itar-Tass ran this story:
DONETSK, June 29, /ITAR-TASS/. Self-defence forces of the Donetsk People’s Republic have taken control over a missile defence army unit equipped with Buk missile defence systems, the press service of the Donetsk People’s Republic told Itar-Tass on Sunday. So far, no details are available about the number and condition of the missile systems taken over by the self-defence forces. The press service refused to comment. The Buk missile defence system is a mobile medium-range surface-to-air missile (SAM) system designed to defend field troops and logistics installations against air threats in conditions of heavy electronic countermeasures and intense enemy fire.
On July 18 2014 07:11 zeo wrote: So why does Kiev have such a large amount of sophisticated anti-air missiles in the area? Where are these rebel planes?
You need only one anti-air vehicle to shoot down a civilian plane. You believe 'nobody' who reported that plane was shot down from the ground? Yet no name of source was mentioned, all they say is 'official' and that means 'nobody'. Ukrainian army doesn't have anti-air system near Russian border - are you kidding me?
FFS why is it so hard to accept that an accident happened, the separatists - inexperienced with the use of such equipment - thought they were shooting down a military cargo plane but in fact shot down an airliner. Nobody (sane, anyway) is accusing them of doing it deliberately!
Why do you have to construct elaborate conspiracies? Why can't you accept the most obvious, logical truth that ALL the evidence is pointing towards?
On July 18 2014 07:17 Iplaythings wrote: Worst thing is that as soeone pointed out is that there's no mutual trusted partner who would make a neutral investigation (that both parties woiuld trust ot be neutral) so this might turn out to be a "blame the other guy before I am blamed" thing and I'd hate to see it.
How is Russia involved in this again? It happened in Ukrainian air space not Russian and there was no official confirmation of Russian missile yet. Separatist as you call them are Ukrainian civilians who are fighting a civil war against government - I fail to see Russia being involved in this yet!
Well, aside from pro-russian rebels shooting down several Ukrainian military planes already in the past few weeks, and the whole part about them finding a buk SAM weapon in a Ukranian military base and flaunting it on TV... Well, if you're going to refute all of the obvious there, then you can still pretty much know russia is involved based on the process of elimination.. Who the fuck else would shoot a plane down in that area?
On July 18 2014 07:11 zeo wrote: So why does Kiev have such a large amount of sophisticated anti-air missiles in the area? Where are these rebel planes?
You need only one anti-air vehicle to shoot down a civilian plane. You believe 'nobody' who reported that plane was shot down from the ground? Yet no name of source was mentioned, all they say is 'official' and that means 'nobody'. Ukrainian army doesn't have anti-air system near Russian border - are you kidding me?
FFS why is it so hard to accept that an accident happened, the separatists - inexperienced with the use of such equipment - thought they were shooting down a military cargo plane but in fact shot down an airliner. Nobody (sane, anyway) is accusing them of doing it deliberately!
Why do you have to construct elaborate conspiracies? Why can't you accept the most obvious, logical truth that ALL the evidence is pointing towards?
What reliable evidence points to them doing it? The only "evidence" so far has been Twitter speculation and SBU releases, which are not even close to reliable.
On July 18 2014 07:17 Iplaythings wrote: Worst thing is that as soeone pointed out is that there's no mutual trusted partner who would make a neutral investigation (that both parties woiuld trust ot be neutral) so this might turn out to be a "blame the other guy before I am blamed" thing and I'd hate to see it.
How is Russia involved in this again? It happened in Ukrainian air space not Russian and there was no official confirmation of Russian missile yet. Separatist as you call them are Ukrainian civilians who are fighting a civil war against government - I fail to see Russia being involved in this yet!
Well, aside from pro-russian rebels shooting down several Ukrainian military planes already in the past few weeks, and the whole part about them finding a buk SAM weapon in a Ukranian military base and flaunting it on TV... Well, if you're going to refute all of the obvious there, then you can still pretty much know russia is involved based on the process of elimination.. Who the fuck else would shoot a plane down in that area?
Ukranian army has a history of shooting down civilian plane while rebels shoot down military planes.
On July 18 2014 07:11 zeo wrote: So why does Kiev have such a large amount of sophisticated anti-air missiles in the area? Where are these rebel planes?
You need only one anti-air vehicle to shoot down a civilian plane. You believe 'nobody' who reported that plane was shot down from the ground? Yet no name of source was mentioned, all they say is 'official' and that means 'nobody'. Ukrainian army doesn't have anti-air system near Russian border - are you kidding me?
FFS why is it so hard to accept that an accident happened, the separatists - inexperienced with the use of such equipment - thought they were shooting down a military cargo plane but in fact shot down an airliner. Nobody (sane, anyway) is accusing them of doing it deliberately!
Why do you have to construct elaborate conspiracies? Why can't you accept the most obvious, logical truth that ALL the evidence is pointing towards?
What reliable evidence points to them doing it? The only "evidence" so far has been Twitter speculation and SBU releases, which are not even close to reliable.
This makes much more sense than any convoluted Ukrainian military shoots down civilian airliner to frame the separatists and solidify international bla bla bla
On July 18 2014 07:11 zeo wrote: So why does Kiev have such a large amount of sophisticated anti-air missiles in the area? Where are these rebel planes?
You need only one anti-air vehicle to shoot down a civilian plane. You believe 'nobody' who reported that plane was shot down from the ground? Yet no name of source was mentioned, all they say is 'official' and that means 'nobody'. Ukrainian army doesn't have anti-air system near Russian border - are you kidding me?
FFS why is it so hard to accept that an accident happened, the separatists - inexperienced with the use of such equipment - thought they were shooting down a military cargo plane but in fact shot down an airliner. Nobody (sane, anyway) is accusing them of doing it deliberately!
Why do you have to construct elaborate conspiracies? Why can't you accept the most obvious, logical truth that ALL the evidence is pointing towards?
Any credible source/person will never take responsibility and allow to use their name to report unconfirmed info or bullshit of any sort. It's the exact reason why there was no names mentioned and believe me all news agencies are dying to get a name to sign under their speculation to make it official. Separatists shot down 6-8 Ukranian military jets SU-25 and choose your words when you say inexperienced.
Off topic. 20+ Years ago one US newspaper (respected newspaper) published that Xylitol causes cancer based on one 'no name' professor's research. People like YOU believed it and stopped buying Xylitol, soon they went bankrupt. After Rigley's Spearmint instantly bought Xylitol and published another article in same newspaper by a 'name' professor to deny it. Xylitol never caused cancer and newspaper was payed to give a 'nobody' source to fool people. And I think you know who wanted Xylitol to stop owning them in sugar free gum business Time changes but reading this forum I see people NEVER change...
This was clearly the act of Russian Separatist everyone knows this. That is not open for the debate at this stage now, it is a fact. The only question that is now open to debate is if Russia was unofficially involved by providing aid to these rebels or not. The Netherlands (~150 dead) and NATO should consider this an act of war and start bombing every separatist SAM site or major staging ground of the Russian separatist. If they want to go to Russia so badly they can go and settle in Siberia, there is enough space there for them instead of shooting down civilian planes of other countries. These separatists are as bad as bin laden or 911 and should be hunted down and eradicated accordingly. These are no freedom fighters these are Russian sponsored terrorist militia.
On July 18 2014 07:11 zeo wrote: So why does Kiev have such a large amount of sophisticated anti-air missiles in the area? Where are these rebel planes?
You need only one anti-air vehicle to shoot down a civilian plane. You believe 'nobody' who reported that plane was shot down from the ground? Yet no name of source was mentioned, all they say is 'official' and that means 'nobody'. Ukrainian army doesn't have anti-air system near Russian border - are you kidding me?
FFS why is it so hard to accept that an accident happened, the separatists - inexperienced with the use of such equipment - thought they were shooting down a military cargo plane but in fact shot down an airliner. Nobody (sane, anyway) is accusing them of doing it deliberately!
Why do you have to construct elaborate conspiracies? Why can't you accept the most obvious, logical truth that ALL the evidence is pointing towards?
Any credible source/person will never take responsibility and allow to use their name to report unconfirmed info or bullshit of any sort. It's the exact reason why there was no names mentioned and believe me all news agencies are dying to get a name to sign under their speculation to make it official.
Off topic. 20+ Years ago one US newspaper (respected newspaper) published that Xylitol causes cancer based on one 'no name' professor's research. People like YOU believed it and stooped buying Xylitol, soon they went bankrupt. After Rigley's Spearmint instantly bought Xylitol and published another article in same newspaper by a 'name' professor to deny it. Xylitol never caused cancer and newspaper was payed to give a 'nobody' source to fool people. And I think you know who wanted Xylitol to stop owning them in sugar free gum business
On July 18 2014 07:17 Iplaythings wrote: Worst thing is that as soeone pointed out is that there's no mutual trusted partner who would make a neutral investigation (that both parties woiuld trust ot be neutral) so this might turn out to be a "blame the other guy before I am blamed" thing and I'd hate to see it.
How is Russia involved in this again? It happened in Ukrainian air space not Russian and there was no official confirmation of Russian missile yet. Separatist as you call them are Ukrainian civilians who are fighting a civil war against government for federalization of East- I fail to see Russia being involved in this yet!
That's alot of words put into my mouth mmkay, I didn't even mention the word seperatist and ofcourse Russia is involved with Kiev having anti air weaponry when the "seperatists" (as I didn't call them) haven't (according to this thread atleast) aerial weaponry (planes, bombers and what not).
Despite it's pretty weird for Russia to not be atleast a little involved when it comes to the Ukranian crisis, pulling strings for the seperatists or not, it's the Russian part of Ukraine who the seperatists represent (unless I'm horribly missinformed) so it's natural for Russia to be involved in my opinion
EPT
Time changes but reading this forum I see people NEVER change...
