On October 07 2013 23:49 mainerd wrote: Despite the horrible implications of a default, I have to admit it is an alluring prospect. If Boehner won't allow a budget that would pass the House to come to a vote, instead favoring budgets with no chance to pass, and we drive straight over the cliff, perhaps people will give their choice to vote slash and burn conservatives into office a second thought. Defaulting would be the ultimate wake up call in this regard. For the voters to have any power and see a congress that is even marginally functional in their lifetimes, careful consideration should be given to those seeking office (something we Americans are not well known for).
I think the utter destruction of a major political party that you despise wouldn't even be consolation enough to compensate for the damage done by a default.
I neither despise the GOP nor do I think a default would be their utter destruction. I would just like to see politics on both sides swing back towards the middle, and if elections are the only way to achieve that, voters need something to give them a clear idea of who the most radical public servants are. In this case it certainly seems to be Tea Party GOP reps, and if the only way they will be questioned at the ballot box is if their actions hurt the pocketbooks of their constituents (and pretty much everyone else), we're in for some pain, but perhaps a bit of political progress as well (one hopes).
It's just too much damage for me to be okay with even considering the benefit of bringing some voters more down to earth should we default. It's not just the pocketbooks of constituents that gets dramatically affected.
On October 08 2013 01:50 Jisall wrote: The game of chicken begins. Wonder who blinks first.
My bet is the democrats.
I dunno man. Sometime during 2013 they seem to have grown a spine and finally stopped capitulating to every little thing. The democrats have a lot to lose and little to gain from compromising.
On October 07 2013 23:49 mainerd wrote: Despite the horrible implications of a default, I have to admit it is an alluring prospect. If Boehner won't allow a budget that would pass the House to come to a vote, instead favoring budgets with no chance to pass, and we drive straight over the cliff, perhaps people will give their choice to vote slash and burn conservatives into office a second thought. Defaulting would be the ultimate wake up call in this regard. For the voters to have any power and see a congress that is even marginally functional in their lifetimes, careful consideration should be given to those seeking office (something we Americans are not well known for).
I think the utter destruction of a major political party that you despise wouldn't even be consolation enough to compensate for the damage done by a default.
I neither despise the GOP nor do I think a default would be their utter destruction. I would just like to see politics on both sides swing back towards the middle, and if elections are the only way to achieve that, voters need something to give them a clear idea of who the most radical public servants are. In this case it certainly seems to be Tea Party GOP reps, and if the only way they will be questioned at the ballot box is if their actions hurt the pocketbooks of their constituents (and pretty much everyone else), we're in for some pain, but perhaps a bit of political progress as well (one hopes).
It's just too much damage for me to be okay with even considering the benefit of bringing some voters more down to earth should we default. It's not just the pocketbooks of constituents that gets dramatically affected.
I agree with you. If the choices were to default to course correct politics in the US, vs not defaulting and carrying on business as usual, I would prefer we didn't default. I was just trying to look at the brighter side of what we have no say in and may be inevitable.
On October 07 2013 22:13 Scareb wrote: As I am from Germany and we only get the information by the liberal press her, like CNN New York Times or all the other sites in the internet I want to visit, oh also Fox, I don't understand why people are still fighting for the Reps. I do watch the Daily Show, Colbert Report and TYT on YT and when the Tea Party people talk, I just lose faith in the USA. That lunatics are killing your GOP from inside not the Democrats, and you guys are doing nothing about it. Like the WW2 memorial think! watch this and pls tell me what the fuck are this guy doing and why can the talk so much shit and lie without punishment. Thanks!
I'm not sure if you've ever been to Washington DC, but I live about 20 min south of there and am pretty familiar with this area. There are no gates to the WWII memorial. You have to go out of your way to haul in barricades to block access it. The extra lengths that the park service took are absurd.
Ah I didn't know that, I visited DC once but couldn't remember.
On October 07 2013 22:13 Scareb wrote: As I am from Germany and we only get the information by the liberal press her, like CNN New York Times or all the other sites in the internet I want to visit, oh also Fox, I don't understand why people are still fighting for the Reps. I do watch the Daily Show, Colbert Report and TYT on YT and when the Tea Party people talk, I just lose faith in the USA. That lunatics are killing your GOP from inside not the Democrats, and you guys are doing nothing about it. Like the WW2 memorial think! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJsczJa0XTI watch this and pls tell me what the fuck are this guy doing and why can the talk so much shit and lie without punishment. Thanks!
The Young Turks is an incredibly biased news source and uses progressive news websites to illustrate a factually inaccurate portrayal of Republicans and Democrats.
Ok, but still the guys are laying, talking bullshit and so on. And nobody seems to care from the real GOP! That's what I don't understand! They really need to grow a pair of balls! The world lost a lot of respect towards the USA in the last 10 years and its going down again, because of some stupid small minded people that are representing your nation.
I hate how the conversations reiterate how the US is stupid, yadda yadda yadda, or the republicans are stupid or the democrats have finally grown a spine or what have you. This has happened before. The Republicans shut down government in the 90s. The Democrats shut down government 8 times under Reagon. Please, don't just spoon feed yourselves off of Fox or CNN or whatever mainstream social media is trying to get you to think. Read the Financial Times and WJS. That will at least put some unbiased reporting your way.
tl;dr: Please don't come here on your high horse from elsewhere in the world and lord it over us. That's not respectful either.
On October 08 2013 03:16 Serpest wrote: I hate how the conversations reiterate how the US is stupid, yadda yadda yadda, or the republicans are stupid or the democrats have finally grown a spine or what have you. This has happened before. The Republicans shut down government in the 90s. The Democrats shut down government 8 times under Reagon. Please, don't just spoon feed yourselves off of Fox or CNN or whatever mainstream social media is trying to get you to think. Read the Financial Times and WJS. That will at least put some unbiased reporting your way.
tl;dr: Please don't come here on your high horse from elsewhere in the world and lord it over us. That's not respectful either.
Wait, how does this kind of thing having happened before make it any less stupid? How is a gouverment shutdown and threathening state default in any way a sane tool in the democratic process?
On October 08 2013 03:16 Serpest wrote: I hate how the conversations reiterate how the US is stupid, yadda yadda yadda, or the republicans are stupid or the democrats have finally grown a spine or what have you. This has happened before. The Republicans shut down government in the 90s. The Democrats shut down government 8 times under Reagon. Please, don't just spoon feed yourselves off of Fox or CNN or whatever mainstream social media is trying to get you to think. Read the Financial Times and WJS. That will at least put some unbiased reporting your way.
tl;dr: Please don't come here on your high horse from elsewhere in the world and lord it over us. That's not respectful either.
Well first off all I didn't say the US is stupid, only some people that are representing your nation and I don't get it why so many of you don't seem to care.. Then I read our german newspapers and the NYT.
On October 08 2013 03:16 Serpest wrote: I hate how the conversations reiterate how the US is stupid, yadda yadda yadda, or the republicans are stupid or the democrats have finally grown a spine or what have you. This has happened before. The Republicans shut down government in the 90s. The Democrats shut down government 8 times under Reagon. Please, don't just spoon feed yourselves off of Fox or CNN or whatever mainstream social media is trying to get you to think. Read the Financial Times and WJS. That will at least put some unbiased reporting your way.
tl;dr: Please don't come here on your high horse from elsewhere in the world and lord it over us. That's not respectful either.
Well first off all I didn't say the US is stupid, only some people that are representing your nation and I don't get it why so many of you don't seem to care.. Then I read our german newspapers and the NYT.
Wasn't even talking to you - otherwise would have quoted you and given a tailored response. If this becomes personal then take it to pm. I don't want to run afoul of the mods.
That's actually been a point of contention among left wingers for quite some time. In the eyes of many, myself included, Obamacare does not go nearly far enough and still allows for a weird coddling of private interests. It is still better than nothing though.
On October 08 2013 03:48 farvacola wrote: That's actually been a point of contention among left wingers for quite some time. In the eyes of many, myself included, Obamacare does not go nearly far enough and still allows for a weird coddling of private interests. It is still better than nothing though.
Pretty much. The only people who have a leg to stand on in calling it socialist are the anarcho-libertarians (anyone who can use the term free market twice in the same sentence while under the impression that people around them take them seriously).
On October 08 2013 03:16 Serpest wrote: I hate how the conversations reiterate how the US is stupid, yadda yadda yadda, or the republicans are stupid or the democrats have finally grown a spine or what have you. This has happened before. The Republicans shut down government in the 90s. The Democrats shut down government 8 times under Reagon. Please, don't just spoon feed yourselves off of Fox or CNN or whatever mainstream social media is trying to get you to think. Read the Financial Times and WJS. That will at least put some unbiased reporting your way.
tl;dr: Please don't come here on your high horse from elsewhere in the world and lord it over us. That's not respectful either.
You are correct about the "government shutdown" but for the first time it's been tied to the "debt ceiling" which is a completely different matter altogether. A default is the Republicans wanting to burn the whole house down if they don't get their way, a government shutdown you are just changing the locks for some time. Two completely different scenarios with vastly different outcomes.
On October 08 2013 03:16 Serpest wrote: I hate how the conversations reiterate how the US is stupid, yadda yadda yadda, or the republicans are stupid or the democrats have finally grown a spine or what have you. This has happened before. The Republicans shut down government in the 90s. The Democrats shut down government 8 times under Reagon. Please, don't just spoon feed yourselves off of Fox or CNN or whatever mainstream social media is trying to get you to think. Read the Financial Times and WJS. That will at least put some unbiased reporting your way.
tl;dr: Please don't come here on your high horse from elsewhere in the world and lord it over us. That's not respectful either.
Also, as has been discussed earlier in the thread, the 80's shutdowns were solved very quickly(seemingly over a beer). The stakes are higher nowadays. Your point, however, is well taken enough.
On October 08 2013 03:48 farvacola wrote: That's actually been a point of contention among left wingers for quite some time. In the eyes of many, myself included, Obamacare does not go nearly far enough and still allows for a weird coddling of private interests. It is still better than nothing though.
Honestly all I see in Obamacare is this administration's version of the Iraq war. Money for friends and business interests bidding the highest to get their pockets lined. No different than Bush with the oil and construction businesses. It's a load of shit too, let it help this or hurt that, I honestly doubt no one will ever make sense of it. All I know is I lose my insurance as of January 1, 2014 which amounts to just another lie by the government. This shutdown should simply drive it to the point of complete replacement and overhaul of this horrendous pile of shit the U.S. government has become.
On October 08 2013 03:48 farvacola wrote: That's actually been a point of contention among left wingers for quite some time. In the eyes of many, myself included, Obamacare does not go nearly far enough and still allows for a weird coddling of private interests. It is still better than nothing though.
Sums it up for me. I'd much prefer a single payer system, it's vastly more efficient, costs less, and provides better quality, and the wealthy would still be welcome to purchase their own healthcare. I'd prefer to cut insurance companies out entirely and go direct to the actual providers and developers of healthcare.
On October 08 2013 03:48 farvacola wrote: That's actually been a point of contention among left wingers for quite some time. In the eyes of many, myself included, Obamacare does not go nearly far enough and still allows for a weird coddling of private interests. It is still better than nothing though.
Honestly all I see in Obamacare is this administration's version of the Iraq war. Money for friends and business interests bidding the highest to get their pockets lined. No different than Bush with the oil and construction businesses. It's a load of shit too, let it help this or hurt that, I honestly doubt no one will ever make sense of it. All I know is I lose my insurance as of January 1, 2014 which amounts to just another lie by the government. This shutdown should simply drive it to the point of complete replacement and overhaul of this horrendous pile of shit the U.S. government has become.
That's quite the claim considering Iraq was a rather destructive war and this is a program that is supposed to get healthcare to millions if people. It's not perfect, but it's pretty good.
On October 08 2013 04:01 KaiserJohan wrote: "Young Turks"? Why on earth would they pick such a politcally loaded name? Didn't they pay attention to their history or was it a provocative move?
the main guy is turkish american. i guess he started the channel before he hired the rest of them ppl, and before it got popular. you can make decent money off youtube now if you get alot of hits.
On October 08 2013 03:48 farvacola wrote: That's actually been a point of contention among left wingers for quite some time. In the eyes of many, myself included, Obamacare does not go nearly far enough and still allows for a weird coddling of private interests. It is still better than nothing though.
Honestly all I see in Obamacare is this administration's version of the Iraq war. Money for friends and business interests bidding the highest to get their pockets lined. No different than Bush with the oil and construction businesses. It's a load of shit too, let it help this or hurt that, I honestly doubt no one will ever make sense of it. All I know is I lose my insurance as of January 1, 2014 which amounts to just another lie by the government. This shutdown should simply drive it to the point of complete replacement and overhaul of this horrendous pile of shit the U.S. government has become.
That's quite the claim considering Iraq was a rather destructive war and this is a program that is supposed to get healthcare to millions if people. It's not perfect, but it's pretty good.
What I mean is at the core of it, it is purely about a business interest getting their way. In Iraq and Afghanistan we saw companies like Halliburton and oil companies make a killing (no pun intended) and now we're seeing the forced purchase of health insurance and the consolidation of Healthcare providers. It's all seemingly amounting to a couple of huge business interests getting their way.
On the surface its a lot of fluff, horse-shoed in like every other terrible piece of legislation during Christmas and all under the guise of helping people. Most of America had health insurance before it. I have a lot of medical professionals, doctors, nurses, etc in my family and no one, nor anyone they know or work with likes it. At the end of the day all I see is just another law that helps a few and will probably eventually hurt many.
EPT
