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On October 08 2013 00:20 Ghanburighan wrote:
The response to K's argument (that threatening not to pass the budget or raise the debt ceiling (let's link these for convenience, they are de facto linked already) will lead to negotiations each time) is very simple.
That's exactly what the budget vote and debt ceiling is meant to do. If it were automatic, it would not be needed. It IS intended as a check on government. When the legislature feels that the budget is unreasonable or the debt situation is out of control, the can refuse to vote on it.
So it's not some unfair tactic, it's one of the core mechanisms in any modern state. It's less common, though, to have the legislature controlled by the opposition. But that doesn't in any way change the principle.
Anything that comes after this (repeating the check on balances, not getting enough in return, etc) is merely negotiations before the negotiations.
Just so we're clear, you think it's working as intended for the government to not be able to pass a bill that is supported by a majority of both legislative assemblies, the President, and the American people?
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From an foreigner perspective the key issue is how the utterly selfdestructive act of a gouverment shutdown (and later on even country default!) are used as bargaining position. Shure Republicans hate obamacare but as far as I can tell it went the whole legal way correctly and is now an active law.
What exactly justifies the current situation in the context of healthy democracy?
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On October 08 2013 00:26 Mercy13 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 00:20 Ghanburighan wrote:
The response to K's argument (that threatening not to pass the budget or raise the debt ceiling (let's link these for convenience, they are de facto linked already) will lead to negotiations each time) is very simple.
That's exactly what the budget vote and debt ceiling is meant to do. If it were automatic, it would not be needed. It IS intended as a check on government. When the legislature feels that the budget is unreasonable or the debt situation is out of control, the can refuse to vote on it.
So it's not some unfair tactic, it's one of the core mechanisms in any modern state. It's less common, though, to have the legislature controlled by the opposition. But that doesn't in any way change the principle.
Anything that comes after this (repeating the check on balances, not getting enough in return, etc) is merely negotiations before the negotiations. Just so we're clear, you think it's working as intended for the government to not be able to pass a bill that is supported by a majority of both legislative assemblies, the President, and the American people?
Yeah, I don't find this argument convincing. While it is true that the passing of the budget means some legislative oversight over the government as a whole, it is a bit disingenuous to suggest that this is happening here, where one party has a rather obvious agenda against one particular law.
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United States24753 Posts
On October 07 2013 23:49 mainerd wrote:
Despite the horrible implications of a default, I have to admit it is an alluring prospect. If Boehner won't allow a budget that would pass the House to come to a vote, instead favoring budgets with no chance to pass, and we drive straight over the cliff, perhaps people will give their choice to vote slash and burn conservatives into office a second thought. Defaulting would be the ultimate wake up call in this regard. For the voters to have any power and see a congress that is even marginally functional in their lifetimes, careful consideration should be given to those seeking office (something we Americans are not well known for).
I think the utter destruction of a major political party that you despise wouldn't even be consolation enough to compensate for the damage done by a default.
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If USA defaults and becomes like Greece, we're entering into another recession for sure. However, would it be so bad that it will become another Great Depression?
On October 08 2013 00:30 Unentschieden wrote:
From an foreigner perspective the key issue is how the utterly selfdestructive act of a gouverment shutdown (and later on even country default!) are used as bargaining position. Shure Republicans hate obamacare but as far as I can tell it went the whole legal way correctly and is now an active law.
What exactly justifies the current situation in the context of healthy democracy?
Welcome to the United States of America. One reason why I'm glad I live north of there.
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United States24753 Posts
On October 08 2013 00:54 geokilla wrote:If USA defaults and becomes like Greece, we're entering into another recession for sure. However, would it be so bad that it will become another Great Depression? Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 00:30 Unentschieden wrote:
From an foreigner perspective the key issue is how the utterly selfdestructive act of a gouverment shutdown (and later on even country default!) are used as bargaining position. Shure Republicans hate obamacare but as far as I can tell it went the whole legal way correctly and is now an active law.
What exactly justifies the current situation in the context of healthy democracy?
Welcome to the United States of America. One reason why I'm glad I live north of there.
I don't fully understand the effects a default would have, but I do know the USA would lose some of its most effective credentials in the international community. It would not just be internal economic weakening that would ultimately affect the american people.... but changed international/financial relations as well.
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On October 08 2013 00:30 Unentschieden wrote:
From an foreigner perspective the key issue is how the utterly selfdestructive act of a gouverment shutdown (and later on even country default!) are used as bargaining position. Shure Republicans hate obamacare but as far as I can tell it went the whole legal way correctly and is now an active law.
What exactly justifies the current situation in the context of healthy democracy?
There is no justification. But then I dont consider the US a healthy democracy either. The fact that a situation like this is possible just shows the problems of the system.
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Would that be first time a country defaults because it doesnt want to borrow, rather than not being able to borrow (cause noone wants to credit them?).
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Holding the entire nation hostage under the threat of a castastrophe dwarfing Lehman's fall to get your will when you can't get it through the normal democratic process is not 'business as usual'. The majority of the population doesn't want the shutdown, a majority in the house would pass a clean CR, a majority in the senate would pass it and the executive would sign it.
This isn't the result of a well-working political process, its the outcome of a completely disfunctional one where republicans in congress can completely loose touch with reality and their districts cheer them on for it.
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On October 08 2013 01:00 Derez wrote:Holding the entire nation hostage under the threat of a castastrophe dwarfing Lehman's fall to get your will when you can't get it through the normal democratic process is not 'business as usual'. The majority of the population doesn't want the shutdown, a majority in the house would pass a clean CR, a majority in the senate would pass it and the executive would sign it. This isn't the result of a well-working political process, its the outcome of a completely disfunctional one where republicans in congress can completely loose touch with reality and their districts cheer them on for it.
Do you remember the time when the elections deciding on President W. Bush's second term were coming up? Following European and International media, it seemed pretty clear that Bush would lose and not win another four years. But that's not what happened.
You can't trust your feelings. They were shaped following the media you do. The same situation was obviously presented completely different to the US citizens in their media about W. Bush's second term. People were thinking they were making the best choice voting the way they did, and Bush was elected.
You can't trust your feelings about this topic judging this from where you are. It might look totally different living in the US. You shouldn't feel confident in judging this situation.
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On October 07 2013 19:44 sc2holar wrote:Americans who argue against free and equal healthcare for everybody amaze me. So cash flow should dictate life expectency, and poor people should die from diseases that could easily be cured. amazing, you really have dont a good job at creating a society that benefits humanity as little as possible and instead does nothing but worship and bow before the dollar sign. your countrys knees must be killing themselves, maybe thats why your economy is falling over  ? When you stray too far on the right scale (liberalism/pseudo-regulated capitalism) or too far left (socialism) you eventually collapse. stay in the middle like germany or sweden etc, we are doing great.
Just like not every country wants a democracy, not every country wants universal healthcare. It is concept that not all can accept because it is something that must be slowly accepted into the society of that country.
Personally I think health care reform is a must, however I don't think that it will be possible in the near future because of the sheer political and logistical clusterfuck that would ensue.
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Now correct me if I missed something but the people of the US DO want healthcare - thats how obamacare came into being and became a law. The current gouverment shutdown is an antidemocratic abuse from my point of view.
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Jesus christ. I think it's about time we elect some new politicians.
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The representatives should represent the opinion of their voters. Thats what they were voted for. So of course the reps should stand up for their own ideas and there is no need for them to give up the fight against ACA, if they were elected on the promise to fight it. Thus their idea trying to change/stop ACA is completely justified.
The question would be:
Does their voterbase really support the shutdown as a mean of fighting ACA? And when watching polls it really looks like, while they get the support for opposing ACA, they do not get much support for the (damaging to the country) way they are trying to do it. At least for the more moderate congressman. Of course, those Tea Party guys that were elected... well... they do tea partyish things and no one can complain, that they represent their voters
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The game of chicken begins. Wonder who blinks first.
My bet is the democrats.
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On October 08 2013 01:50 Jisall wrote:
The game of chicken begins. Wonder who blinks first.
My bet is the democrats.
Current nuclear option in the House :
Boehner just passes a budget in the House one last time. And immediately declares the House in recess. And everyone in the House goes home. Done, finished...see you in 17 months after the next elections (Jan 2015).
Senate can't amend it... because the House in in recess. The Senate either has to accept it as-is or they are stuck for 17 months were we are now.
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On October 08 2013 01:32 Unentschieden wrote:
Now correct me if I missed something but the people of the US DO want healthcare - thats how obamacare came into being and became a law. The current gouverment shutdown is an antidemocratic abuse from my point of view.
It's not completely true as a contingent of Representatives voted for obamacare against their constituents' wishes and were replaced in the subsequent election. At least that's what happened in my particular district and it is the number one issue pointed to for Republicans regaining control of the House.
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On October 08 2013 01:52 RCMDVA wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 01:50 Jisall wrote:
The game of chicken begins. Wonder who blinks first.
My bet is the democrats. Current nuclear option in the House : Boehner just passes a budget in the House one last time. And immediately declares the House in recess. And everyone in the House goes home. Done, finished...see you in 17 months after the next elections (Jan 2015). Senate can't amend it... because the House in in recess. The Senate either has to accept it as-is or they are stuck for 17 months were we are now.
Ahh yes the, "I'm taking the ball and I'm going home option." The most popular option among 8-13 year olds.
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On October 08 2013 00:49 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2013 23:49 mainerd wrote:
Despite the horrible implications of a default, I have to admit it is an alluring prospect. If Boehner won't allow a budget that would pass the House to come to a vote, instead favoring budgets with no chance to pass, and we drive straight over the cliff, perhaps people will give their choice to vote slash and burn conservatives into office a second thought. Defaulting would be the ultimate wake up call in this regard. For the voters to have any power and see a congress that is even marginally functional in their lifetimes, careful consideration should be given to those seeking office (something we Americans are not well known for). I think the utter destruction of a major political party that you despise wouldn't even be consolation enough to compensate for the damage done by a default.
I neither despise the GOP nor do I think a default would be their utter destruction. I would just like to see politics on both sides swing back towards the middle, and if elections are the only way to achieve that, voters need something to give them a clear idea of who the most radical public servants are. In this case it certainly seems to be Tea Party GOP reps, and if the only way they will be questioned at the ballot box is if their actions hurt the pocketbooks of their constituents (and pretty much everyone else), we're in for some pain, but perhaps a bit of political progress as well (one hopes).
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On October 08 2013 01:56 Hrrrrm wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 01:52 RCMDVA wrote:On October 08 2013 01:50 Jisall wrote:
The game of chicken begins. Wonder who blinks first.
My bet is the democrats. Current nuclear option in the House : Boehner just passes a budget in the House one last time. And immediately declares the House in recess. And everyone in the House goes home. Done, finished...see you in 17 months after the next elections (Jan 2015). Senate can't amend it... because the House in in recess. The Senate either has to accept it as-is or they are stuck for 17 months were we are now. Ahh yes the, "I'm taking the ball and I'm going home option." The most popular option among 8-13 year olds.
And politicians. Watching the 'Murican news is like watching a middle school recess get out of hand.
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EPT
