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http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/30/20758038-shutdown-begins-as-congress-remains-deadlocked?lite
The US Federal government has officially shut down.
For the first time in nearly two decades, the federal government staggered into a partial shutdown Monday at midnight after congressional Republicans stubbornly demanded changes in the nation's health care law as the price for essential federal funding and President Barack Obama and Democrats adamantly refused.
As Congress gridlocked, Obama said a "shutdown will have a very real economic impact on real people, right away," with hundreds of thousands of federal workers furloughed and veterans' centers, national parks, most of the space agency and other government operations shuttered.
He laid the blame at the feet of House Republicans, whom he accused of seeking to tie government funding to ideological demands, "all to save face after making some impossible promises to the extreme right wing of their party.”
The shutdown is expected to place tens of thousands of federal workers on furlough, close national parks and monuments, and disrupt services like food assistance and IRS audits.
Services like benefit payments and national security operations would go on as usual, and -- because of a bipartisan measure passed by both houses of Congress and signed into law by the president late Monday -- members of the military will continue to be paid.
The new health care insurance "exchanges" mandated by the new health care law also went live even as the shutdown became official.
The full force of the shutdown has yet to be measured, and its effects have yet to be fully felt. Yet it is certain that the shutdown will have devastating short term and long term effects on all sectors of the US government.
Do you think Obamacare should be revised? Should Congress have compromised? What could the government have done to prevent such a devastating event?
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fuck title, please edit to "US"
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Oh no, not Uganda too ! D:
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Shouldnt this just go into the US politics megathread thingy?
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On October 01 2013 21:17 Varanice wrote:
Shouldnt this just go into the US politics megathread thingy?
It's already being discussed there at least.
Interesting to see where this goes, as an outsider.
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United States1107 Posts
On October 01 2013 21:11 electronic voyeur wrote:http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/30/20758038-shutdown-begins-as-congress-remains-deadlocked?liteThe US Federal government has officially shut down.For the first time in nearly two decades, the federal government staggered into a partial shutdown Monday at midnight after congressional Republicans stubbornly demanded changes in the nation's health care law as the price for essential federal funding and President Barack Obama and Democrats adamantly refused. As Congress gridlocked, Obama said a "shutdown will have a very real economic impact on real people, right away," with hundreds of thousands of federal workers furloughed and veterans' centers, national parks, most of the space agency and other government operations shuttered. He laid the blame at the feet of House Republicans, whom he accused of seeking to tie government funding to ideological demands, "all to save face after making some impossible promises to the extreme right wing of their party.” Show nested quote +
The shutdown is expected to place tens of thousands of federal workers on furlough, close national parks and monuments, and disrupt services like food assistance and IRS audits.
Services like benefit payments and national security operations would go on as usual, and -- because of a bipartisan measure passed by both houses of Congress and signed into law by the president late Monday -- members of the military will continue to be paid.
The new health care insurance "exchanges" mandated by the new health care law also went live even as the shutdown became official.
The full force of the shutdown has yet to be measured, and its effects have yet to be fully felt. Yet it is certain that the shutdown will have devastating short term and long term effects on all sectors of the US government. Do you think Obamacare should be revised? Should Congress have compromised? What could the government have done to prevent such a devastating event?
It can't really be that devastating because both sides of the aisle would rather this happen than have any change in their stance on healthcare. So at least from their perspective, this is a the preferable outcome. Thinking that it's some catastrophic event is just media hype. Basically some fringe government employees are not going to have to go on furlough, which while very unfortunate for their families, is not some great terrible event in the grand scheme of things.
Dems would rather have a shutdown than change Obamacare.
Rebs would rather have a shutdown than accept Obamacare.
Q.E.D. we have a shutdown.
(Hey, how about we cut back government spending so we don't have to keep borrowing more money to pay for the government and this whole issue goes away. Am I crazy? Cut all program's budgets by like 2% or whatever needed, I'm SURE there is fat to be trimmed and we don't have to lose any services.)
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On October 01 2013 21:17 Varanice wrote:
Shouldnt this just go into the US politics megathread thingy?
It's an issue worthy of a seperate thread.
On topic: the debt ceiling is a ludicrous concept. The debt ceiling is always raised (because it has to be for the US government to function), but the senate always holds off until the last second for political leverage. This time both sides are putting their foot down, when obamacare was already delayed a year last time if I remember correctly.
Which side is to blame? Hard to say. Both?
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On October 01 2013 21:21 LaughingTulkas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 21:11 electronic voyeur wrote:http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/30/20758038-shutdown-begins-as-congress-remains-deadlocked?liteThe US Federal government has officially shut down.For the first time in nearly two decades, the federal government staggered into a partial shutdown Monday at midnight after congressional Republicans stubbornly demanded changes in the nation's health care law as the price for essential federal funding and President Barack Obama and Democrats adamantly refused. As Congress gridlocked, Obama said a "shutdown will have a very real economic impact on real people, right away," with hundreds of thousands of federal workers furloughed and veterans' centers, national parks, most of the space agency and other government operations shuttered. He laid the blame at the feet of House Republicans, whom he accused of seeking to tie government funding to ideological demands, "all to save face after making some impossible promises to the extreme right wing of their party.”
The shutdown is expected to place tens of thousands of federal workers on furlough, close national parks and monuments, and disrupt services like food assistance and IRS audits.
Services like benefit payments and national security operations would go on as usual, and -- because of a bipartisan measure passed by both houses of Congress and signed into law by the president late Monday -- members of the military will continue to be paid.
The new health care insurance "exchanges" mandated by the new health care law also went live even as the shutdown became official.
The full force of the shutdown has yet to be measured, and its effects have yet to be fully felt. Yet it is certain that the shutdown will have devastating short term and long term effects on all sectors of the US government. Do you think Obamacare should be revised? Should Congress have compromised? What could the government have done to prevent such a devastating event? It can't really be that devastating because both sides of the aisle would rather this happen than have any change in their stance on healthcare. So at least from their perspective, this is a the preferable outcome. Thinking that it's some catastrophic event is just media hype. Basically some fringe government employees are not going to have to go on furlough, which while very unfortunate for their families, is not some great terrible event in the grand scheme of things. Dems would rather have a shutdown than change Obamacare.
Rebs would rather have a shutdown than accept Obamacare.Q.E.D. we have a shutdown. (Hey, how about we cut back government spending so we don't have to keep borrowing more money to pay for the government and this whole issue goes away. Am I crazy? Cut all program's budgets by like 2% or whatever needed, I'm SURE there is fat to be trimmed and we don't have to lose any services.)
Fringe Republicans would rather have a shutdown than accept Obamacare, and the mainstream Republicans are being forced to bend to their will for fear of fracturing the party.
Dems do not believe that the budget should be a tool for policy "negotiation", and so are refusing to discuss the issue on Republicans "delay Obamacare" terms.
As far as I have seen, the Dems position is entirely reasonable. It's not a negotiation as the Republicans aren't giving anything up, they are demanding something in return for their support for something they already support (raising the debt ceiling). They want to vote for it, but only on condition that Obamacare is delayed, and they already lost on that issue before, so it should not be up for discussion realistically, and the debt ceiling should not be used as a negotiation tool.
Sufficient Republicans are being idiots about it, hence the screwed up position. Political parties fighting against each other rather than trying to help the country they are supposed to be in charge of.
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On October 01 2013 21:21 LaughingTulkas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 21:11 electronic voyeur wrote:http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/30/20758038-shutdown-begins-as-congress-remains-deadlocked?liteThe US Federal government has officially shut down.For the first time in nearly two decades, the federal government staggered into a partial shutdown Monday at midnight after congressional Republicans stubbornly demanded changes in the nation's health care law as the price for essential federal funding and President Barack Obama and Democrats adamantly refused. As Congress gridlocked, Obama said a "shutdown will have a very real economic impact on real people, right away," with hundreds of thousands of federal workers furloughed and veterans' centers, national parks, most of the space agency and other government operations shuttered. He laid the blame at the feet of House Republicans, whom he accused of seeking to tie government funding to ideological demands, "all to save face after making some impossible promises to the extreme right wing of their party.”
The shutdown is expected to place tens of thousands of federal workers on furlough, close national parks and monuments, and disrupt services like food assistance and IRS audits.
Services like benefit payments and national security operations would go on as usual, and -- because of a bipartisan measure passed by both houses of Congress and signed into law by the president late Monday -- members of the military will continue to be paid.
The new health care insurance "exchanges" mandated by the new health care law also went live even as the shutdown became official.
The full force of the shutdown has yet to be measured, and its effects have yet to be fully felt. Yet it is certain that the shutdown will have devastating short term and long term effects on all sectors of the US government. Do you think Obamacare should be revised? Should Congress have compromised? What could the government have done to prevent such a devastating event? It can't really be that devastating because both sides of the aisle would rather this happen than have any change in their stance on healthcare. So at least from their perspective, this is a the preferable outcome. Thinking that it's some catastrophic event is just media hype. Basically some fringe government employees are not going to have to go on furlough, which while very unfortunate for their families, is not some great terrible event in the grand scheme of things.Dems would rather have a shutdown than change Obamacare. Rebs would rather have a shutdown than accept Obamacare. Q.E.D. we have a shutdown. (Hey, how about we cut back government spending so we don't have to keep borrowing more money to pay for the government and this whole issue goes away. Am I crazy? Cut all program's budgets by like 2% or whatever needed, I'm SURE there is fat to be trimmed and we don't have to lose any services.)
It doesn't just include "fringe government employees" it also includes any company that is supposed to be paid by the US government by things like constructing/maintaining highways etc. If they've done the work and are now asking to be paid, it will be illegal for the white house to pay them. This shakes trust in the US government, which in turn shakes trust in the dollar. The dollar is kind of integral to the world economy.
(Hey, how about we cut back government spending so we don't have to keep borrowing more money to pay for the government and this whole issue goes away. Am I crazy? Cut all program's budgets by like 2% or whatever needed, I'm SURE there is fat to be trimmed and we don't have to lose any services.)
I think you are severely underestimating how much 2% of certain branches of government' budget is.
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I'm not liking this. Not that I'm American, but every time the US sneezes, Canada seems to develop a cough itself..... We're so inter-twined that I'm sure we're going to feel something from this.
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On October 01 2013 21:27 Impervious wrote:
I'm not liking this. Not that I'm American, but every time the US sneezes, Canada seems to develop a cough itself..... We're so inter-twined that I'm sure we're going to feel something from this.
I'm not trying to say "the apocalypse is nigh" or anything like that, but yeah it'll affect the world economy if this doesn't get resolved soon. Estimates that I've seen are if this lasts a week the US GDP drops .5 %
There's also the ticking timebomb of 17th october, which is when the US will reach its borrowing limit. It's a seperate issue but I'm sure it'll come into play as a political issue as well.
Neither of these problems SHOULD be political imo. Debt ceiling is a silly concept.
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It will all be over in a day or two, the country will move on, people will still get paid. Only ones who feel the suck are people who had plans to visit national parks. I have a 7 day backpacking trip planned for this friday, if the park is still closed by then I will surely be upset 
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Love our politicians fighting over Obamacare.... All this time could have been spent reviewing out governments waste and after cutting all that they not only could afford Obamacare, but they could lower our taxes by 15%.
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On October 01 2013 21:34 NoobSkills wrote:
Love our politicians fighting over Obamacare.... All this time could have been spent reviewing out governments waste and after cutting all that they not only could afford Obamacare, but they could lower our taxes by 15%.
You should go tell them, I think you just solved... you know, the world.
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United States1107 Posts
On October 01 2013 21:24 Lonyo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 21:21 LaughingTulkas wrote:On October 01 2013 21:11 electronic voyeur wrote:http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/30/20758038-shutdown-begins-as-congress-remains-deadlocked?liteThe US Federal government has officially shut down.For the first time in nearly two decades, the federal government staggered into a partial shutdown Monday at midnight after congressional Republicans stubbornly demanded changes in the nation's health care law as the price for essential federal funding and President Barack Obama and Democrats adamantly refused. As Congress gridlocked, Obama said a "shutdown will have a very real economic impact on real people, right away," with hundreds of thousands of federal workers furloughed and veterans' centers, national parks, most of the space agency and other government operations shuttered. He laid the blame at the feet of House Republicans, whom he accused of seeking to tie government funding to ideological demands, "all to save face after making some impossible promises to the extreme right wing of their party.”
The shutdown is expected to place tens of thousands of federal workers on furlough, close national parks and monuments, and disrupt services like food assistance and IRS audits.
Services like benefit payments and national security operations would go on as usual, and -- because of a bipartisan measure passed by both houses of Congress and signed into law by the president late Monday -- members of the military will continue to be paid.
The new health care insurance "exchanges" mandated by the new health care law also went live even as the shutdown became official.
The full force of the shutdown has yet to be measured, and its effects have yet to be fully felt. Yet it is certain that the shutdown will have devastating short term and long term effects on all sectors of the US government. Do you think Obamacare should be revised? Should Congress have compromised? What could the government have done to prevent such a devastating event? It can't really be that devastating because both sides of the aisle would rather this happen than have any change in their stance on healthcare. So at least from their perspective, this is a the preferable outcome. Thinking that it's some catastrophic event is just media hype. Basically some fringe government employees are not going to have to go on furlough, which while very unfortunate for their families, is not some great terrible event in the grand scheme of things. Dems would rather have a shutdown than change Obamacare.
Rebs would rather have a shutdown than accept Obamacare.Q.E.D. we have a shutdown. (Hey, how about we cut back government spending so we don't have to keep borrowing more money to pay for the government and this whole issue goes away. Am I crazy? Cut all program's budgets by like 2% or whatever needed, I'm SURE there is fat to be trimmed and we don't have to lose any services.) Fringe Republicans would rather have a shutdown than accept Obamacare, and the mainstream Republicans are being forced to bend to their will for fear of fracturing the party. Dems do not believe that the budget should be a tool for policy "negotiation", and so are refusing to discuss the issue on Republicans "delay Obamacare" terms. As far as I have seen, the Dems position is entirely reasonable. It's not a negotiation as the Republicans aren't giving anything up, they are demanding something in return for their support for something they already support (raising the debt ceiling). They want to vote for it, but only on condition that Obamacare is delayed, and they already lost on that issue before, so it should not be up for discussion realistically, and the debt ceiling should not be used as a negotiation tool. Sufficient Republicans are being idiots about it, hence the screwed up position. Political parties fighting against each other rather than trying to help the country they are supposed to be in charge of.
Okay, change it to:
Dems would rather have a shutdown that change Obamacare.
Fringe Reps would rather have a shutdown than accept Obamacare.
Mainstream Reps would rather have a shutdown than go against the fringe Reps.
Nothing has really changed. Each group has something that they think is more important than avoiding a shutdown, which means they think the alternative is WORSE than a shutdown, otherwise they would negotiate.
As someone who thinks both parties are full of corruption and lying and scheming, I find your acceptance of the Democrats reasoning and the rejection of the Republicans reasoning to be somewhat contrived. Everything is congress is a negotiating tool (and many things outside of congress as well), the Democrats are only saying that it isn't in order to score political points... which in your case they have succeeded. Don't think for a second they wouldn't be trying the same thing if there was a reverse situation (say Reps had voted in a law to burn down Alaska and put in oil wells, you're sure as hell that the Dems would vote to shutdown the government over that. Also before you get off on a tangent on how that is nothing like Obamacare, just realize I'm making a point about how a side will using any means to try to defeat something they find odious.)
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On October 01 2013 21:32 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 21:27 Impervious wrote:
I'm not liking this. Not that I'm American, but every time the US sneezes, Canada seems to develop a cough itself..... We're so inter-twined that I'm sure we're going to feel something from this. I'm not trying to say "the apocalypse is nigh" or anything like that, but yeah it'll affect the world economy if this doesn't get resolved soon. Estimates that I've seen are if this lasts a week the US GDP drops .5 % There's also the ticking timebomb of 17th october, which is when the US will reach its borrowing limit. It's a seperate issue but I'm sure it'll come into play as a political issue as well. Neither of these problems SHOULD be political imo. Debt ceiling is a silly concept.
Well, they should be political issues, but not one held as weight against the other. Our government should decide on something not play silly political games like holding funding hostage to get rid of something a previous majority wanted. Though, it is the same game always in congress. Pass a bill with pork, but funding for the troops, and if you don't vote for it you don't support the troops, or something along those lines. Always the other side trying to hold each other hostage.
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On October 01 2013 21:32 jeremycafe wrote:It will all be over in a day or two, the country will move on, people will still get paid. Only ones who feel the suck are people who had plans to visit national parks. I have a 7 day backpacking trip planned for this friday, if the park is still closed by then I will surely be upset
Part of me believes this to be true as well. They all just wanted some vacation time. Who wouldn't? It was beautiful this past weekend.
Anyway, it doesnt undermine the fact that Obamacare is a big big big big mistake and needs to be revised. It cannot pass in its current form. The middle class will be hurting. Most people work for corporations who already do not want to provide anything for their employees at times, and this will just give tons of otherwise healthy americans to pay for healthcare, all the while having their hours cut at work so they need to find part time work elsewhere which ends up costing more in the long run anyway.
It's actually a pretty serious matter....I can't express how distasteful I am towards the Obamacare bill.
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Interesting how so many public servants are temporarily jobless despite their jobs having been defined by legislation that was passed years, sometimes decades ago.
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EPT
