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On October 01 2013 21:39 Th1rdEye wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 21:32 jeremycafe wrote:It will all be over in a day or two, the country will move on, people will still get paid. Only ones who feel the suck are people who had plans to visit national parks. I have a 7 day backpacking trip planned for this friday, if the park is still closed by then I will surely be upset  Part of me believes this to be true as well. They all just wanted some vacation time. Who wouldn't? It was beautiful this past weekend. Anyway, it doesnt undermine the fact that Obamacare is a big big big big mistake and needs to be revised. It cannot pass in its current form. The middle class will be hurting. Most people work for corporations who already do not want to provide anything for their employees at times, and this will just give tons of otherwise healthy americans to pay for healthcare, all the while having their hours cut at work so they need to find part time work elsewhere which ends up costing more in the long run anyway. It's actually a pretty serious matter....I can't express how distasteful I am towards the Obamacare bill.
I completely understand why people are so against obamacare, even though I don't agree.
But saying "tons of otherwise healthy american" as if they shouldn't have to contribute because they're healthy is like saying people shouldn't have to pay for car insurance since they've never crashed their car before.
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On October 01 2013 21:43 Sbrubbles wrote:
Interesting how so many public servants are temporarily jobless despite their jobs having been defined by legislation that was passed years, sometimes decades ago.
A good portion of them will still get paid for the days, even if they didn't have to show up. At least the people I know in the DoD sector are under those terms.
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lol, imagine if the democrats in congress would have tried to pull this shit during the Iraq War. Bush would have branded them all traitors, no doubt.
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United States1107 Posts
On October 01 2013 21:25 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 21:21 LaughingTulkas wrote:On October 01 2013 21:11 electronic voyeur wrote:http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/30/20758038-shutdown-begins-as-congress-remains-deadlocked?liteThe US Federal government has officially shut down.For the first time in nearly two decades, the federal government staggered into a partial shutdown Monday at midnight after congressional Republicans stubbornly demanded changes in the nation's health care law as the price for essential federal funding and President Barack Obama and Democrats adamantly refused. As Congress gridlocked, Obama said a "shutdown will have a very real economic impact on real people, right away," with hundreds of thousands of federal workers furloughed and veterans' centers, national parks, most of the space agency and other government operations shuttered. He laid the blame at the feet of House Republicans, whom he accused of seeking to tie government funding to ideological demands, "all to save face after making some impossible promises to the extreme right wing of their party.”
The shutdown is expected to place tens of thousands of federal workers on furlough, close national parks and monuments, and disrupt services like food assistance and IRS audits.
Services like benefit payments and national security operations would go on as usual, and -- because of a bipartisan measure passed by both houses of Congress and signed into law by the president late Monday -- members of the military will continue to be paid.
The new health care insurance "exchanges" mandated by the new health care law also went live even as the shutdown became official.
The full force of the shutdown has yet to be measured, and its effects have yet to be fully felt. Yet it is certain that the shutdown will have devastating short term and long term effects on all sectors of the US government. Do you think Obamacare should be revised? Should Congress have compromised? What could the government have done to prevent such a devastating event? It can't really be that devastating because both sides of the aisle would rather this happen than have any change in their stance on healthcare. So at least from their perspective, this is a the preferable outcome. Thinking that it's some catastrophic event is just media hype. Basically some fringe government employees are not going to have to go on furlough, which while very unfortunate for their families, is not some great terrible event in the grand scheme of things.Dems would rather have a shutdown than change Obamacare. Rebs would rather have a shutdown than accept Obamacare. Q.E.D. we have a shutdown. (Hey, how about we cut back government spending so we don't have to keep borrowing more money to pay for the government and this whole issue goes away. Am I crazy? Cut all program's budgets by like 2% or whatever needed, I'm SURE there is fat to be trimmed and we don't have to lose any services.) It doesn't just include "fringe government employees" it also includes any company that is supposed to be paid by the US government by things like constructing/maintaining highways etc. If they've done the work and are now asking to be paid, it will be illegal for the white house to pay them. This shakes trust in the US government, which in turn shakes trust in the dollar. The dollar is kind of integral to the world economy. Show nested quote +(Hey, how about we cut back government spending so we don't have to keep borrowing more money to pay for the government and this whole issue goes away. Am I crazy? Cut all program's budgets by like 2% or whatever needed, I'm SURE there is fat to be trimmed and we don't have to lose any services.) I think you are severely underestimating how much 2% of certain branches of government' budget is.
People trust the US government? All kidding aside, you are now speaking in hypotheticals and not facts "If they've done the work and are not paid." I believe the idea is to shut down things that do not need to be paid immediately and pay the things that do. We'll see.
I am not underestimating the 2%, I'm quite serious. It is not sustainable for anyone, largest country in the world or not, to be consistently spending more than they take in and borrowing (or printing money) to make up the difference. History clearly shows us this, eventually the piper WILL be paid. I would take the short term (even if it's years) pain of an across the board cut which would even us out to appropriate levels rather than the long term pain when the bill finally comes due, even if that's generations away. You could try to just cut extraneous programs, but 1. all of these are too small to make any real progress, 2. Politician are elected to give people stuff, they have no incentive to take stuff away and will simply be replaced by more people who give people stuff, 3. there will be a long fight over which people's pet programs to cut, and we will get no where. A simple across the board cut would be more effective and more realistic, (and the pain for some programs might spur people to cut some of the extraneous things, as this means more for all that's left.)
But really, I think it's probably too late to save this system, the grandest experiment in government yet tried, but ultimately I have doubts as to it's long-term success. Maybe thinking about this stuff just gets me too down.
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On October 01 2013 21:39 Th1rdEye wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 21:32 jeremycafe wrote:It will all be over in a day or two, the country will move on, people will still get paid. Only ones who feel the suck are people who had plans to visit national parks. I have a 7 day backpacking trip planned for this friday, if the park is still closed by then I will surely be upset Part of me believes this to be true as well. They all just wanted some vacation time. Who wouldn't? It was beautiful this past weekend. Anyway, it doesnt undermine the fact that Obamacare is a big big big big mistake and needs to be revised. It cannot pass in its current form. The middle class will be hurting. Most people work for corporations who already do not want to provide anything for their employees at times, and this will just give tons of otherwise healthy americans to pay for healthcare, all the while having their hours cut at work so they need to find part time work elsewhere which ends up costing more in the long run anyway. It's actually a pretty serious matter....I can't express how distasteful I am towards the Obamacare bill.
While I tend to lean more to the right (but I dont call myself a republican anymore), I do not think it is as big of a mistake as you make it out to be. I think there are problems with it, such as people shouldn't be forced to have it. However I have known a lot of people who work very low paying jobs not because they want to, but because they simply had no other way to get ahead or were dealt some shitty cards to get them stuck in that position. It is hard for me as a human being to say they do not deserve to be treated. The common things we make a quick stop at the doctor to get resolved goes untreated with these people. What we lose a day for, they lose a week. Losing a week at those wages is a "big big big mistake".
Our country has a problem. "Obamacare" might not be the 100% solution, but something has to happen. We keep alienating the growing lower class of america, and its only going to get worse. Our cities are filth.
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On October 01 2013 21:38 kwizach wrote:There is no need to make a different thread about the issue... Discuss it in the US Politics Megathread :-)
Nope. I think this issue is TOO BIG to be lumped together in that garbage of a thread.
Im observing this very closely. I think Obama has some serious balls to call the Congress' bluff.
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On October 01 2013 21:46 Erik.TheRed wrote:
lol, imagine if the democrats in congress would have tried to pull this shit during the Iraq War. Bush would have branded them all traitors, no doubt.
Democrats and republicans do this crap on a daily basis. You have no idea how much crap gets thrown into bills just to get it passed. They will pass a military spending bill that gives a million to some unrelated green project just to get a few more important votes.
The American political system is plagued with hidden spending.
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On October 01 2013 21:50 jeremycafe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 21:46 Erik.TheRed wrote:
lol, imagine if the democrats in congress would have tried to pull this shit during the Iraq War. Bush would have branded them all traitors, no doubt. Democrats and republicans do this crap on a daily basis. You have no idea how much crap gets thrown into bills just to get it passed. They will pass a military spending bill that gives a million to some unrelated green project just to get a few more important votes. The American political system is plagued with hidden spending.
Although very true, it's also a necessity to get minorities' voices heard. (not talking about race).
This is different than a "christmas tree bill" in that both sides are playing chicken with the world economy at stake.
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On October 01 2013 21:54 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 21:50 jeremycafe wrote:On October 01 2013 21:46 Erik.TheRed wrote:
lol, imagine if the democrats in congress would have tried to pull this shit during the Iraq War. Bush would have branded them all traitors, no doubt. Democrats and republicans do this crap on a daily basis. You have no idea how much crap gets thrown into bills just to get it passed. They will pass a military spending bill that gives a million to some unrelated green project just to get a few more important votes. The American political system is plagued with hidden spending. Although very true, it's also a necessity to get minorities' voices heard. (not talking about race). This is different than a "christmas tree bill" in that both sides are playing chicken with the world economy at stake.
I'm not saying this stance was any better or worse. Just making it clear to someone who made it sound like only republicans pull this playbook when that is not the case. Both sides of the American political system are conniving bastards. They sit in their thrones gambling thousands of jobs just to feel good about themselves, on a daily basis. They don't give a damn about solving economic problems. They just want to better themselves and their interests. And IMO, we have gone so far down that road of corruption there is no way out.
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On October 01 2013 21:44 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 21:39 Th1rdEye wrote:On October 01 2013 21:32 jeremycafe wrote:It will all be over in a day or two, the country will move on, people will still get paid. Only ones who feel the suck are people who had plans to visit national parks. I have a 7 day backpacking trip planned for this friday, if the park is still closed by then I will surely be upset Part of me believes this to be true as well. They all just wanted some vacation time. Who wouldn't? It was beautiful this past weekend. Anyway, it doesnt undermine the fact that Obamacare is a big big big big mistake and needs to be revised. It cannot pass in its current form. The middle class will be hurting. Most people work for corporations who already do not want to provide anything for their employees at times, and this will just give tons of otherwise healthy americans to pay for healthcare, all the while having their hours cut at work so they need to find part time work elsewhere which ends up costing more in the long run anyway. It's actually a pretty serious matter....I can't express how distasteful I am towards the Obamacare bill. I completely understand why people are so against obamacare, even though I don't agree. But saying "tons of otherwise healthy american" as if they shouldn't have to contribute because they're healthy is like saying people shouldn't have to pay for car insurance since they've never crashed their car before.
Its always the die hard republicans who want less government control over their companies/profits. Shame on them!
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I'm at Fort Bragg right now and just learned there are no active medical or dental facilities here anymore until they get a budget. I needed that appointment! These are not non-essential assets!
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American exceptionalism at work here. The whole debt ceiling is a silly concept which shouls be done away with. Shutting a government down has a negative impact on more than just the US.
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On October 01 2013 21:45 jeremycafe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 21:43 Sbrubbles wrote:
Interesting how so many public servants are temporarily jobless despite their jobs having been defined by legislation that was passed years, sometimes decades ago. A good portion of them will still get paid for the days, even if they didn't have to show up. At least the people I know in the DoD sector are under those terms.
That's good to hear.
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The government shutdown is probably political suicide for the tea party. I think Boehner is secretly hoping that this kills the movement dead in its tracks (he's terrified of being primaried by a far right republican and barely won the speaker position in the most recent vote), there's no political advantage to be gained and he remembers 1996 well.
The position the house of representatives has taken is ludicrous but was also predictable enough that the vast majority of the ACA was placed under mandatory spending (which the house doesn't actually control) in expectations of something like this. The ACA is going into effect no matter what the GOP does, Government shutdown or no.
A government shutdown can mean that checks to even essential personnel are delayed until the shutdown is over simply because the employees who process payrolls are not deemed essential (estimates I've seen say that the Pentagon will run into this issue if the shutdown lasts longer than a week, despite congress passing a bill to pay troops during the shutdown).
The tea party picked the wrong issue to throw this fit over- freezing the debt ceiling is something that has at least mild support despite likely being economically worse (it would likely cause another Great Depression, but as one tea party representative said, "it would be a fun experiment"). A government shutdown basically has and has had no support whatsoever.
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This whole ACA/government shutdown thing is a mess I admit I should've been following more closely, but then again, given that nobody seems to know what's going on, I don't feel quite so guilty. This is kinda like the worst-case scenario for both conservatives and liberals: the people aren't at their public jobs, but we're still taxed to pay for them.
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Quickest way to fix this is to change the way the shutdown works so the first people to not get paid are the President and Congress. You would never see a government shut down if their paychecks were on the line and not other people's like we have now.
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On October 01 2013 21:49 jeremycafe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 21:39 Th1rdEye wrote:On October 01 2013 21:32 jeremycafe wrote:It will all be over in a day or two, the country will move on, people will still get paid. Only ones who feel the suck are people who had plans to visit national parks. I have a 7 day backpacking trip planned for this friday, if the park is still closed by then I will surely be upset Part of me believes this to be true as well. They all just wanted some vacation time. Who wouldn't? It was beautiful this past weekend. Anyway, it doesnt undermine the fact that Obamacare is a big big big big mistake and needs to be revised. It cannot pass in its current form. The middle class will be hurting. Most people work for corporations who already do not want to provide anything for their employees at times, and this will just give tons of otherwise healthy americans to pay for healthcare, all the while having their hours cut at work so they need to find part time work elsewhere which ends up costing more in the long run anyway. It's actually a pretty serious matter....I can't express how distasteful I am towards the Obamacare bill. While I tend to lean more to the right (but I dont call myself a republican anymore), I do not think it is as big of a mistake as you make it out to be. I think there are problems with it, such as people shouldn't be forced to have it. However I have known a lot of people who work very low paying jobs not because they want to, but because they simply had no other way to get ahead or were dealt some shitty cards to get them stuck in that position. It is hard for me as a human being to say they do not deserve to be treated. The common things we make a quick stop at the doctor to get resolved goes untreated with these people. What we lose a day for, they lose a week. Losing a week at those wages is a "big big big mistake". Our country has a problem. "Obamacare" might not be the 100% solution, but something has to happen. We keep alienating the growing lower class of america, and its only going to get worse. Our cities are filth.
Unworkable. The individual mandate is needed in any universal healthcare system that uses insurance. Otherwise, it causes adverse selection, where only sick people buy insurance, thereby driving up the price of insurance for everyone.
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On October 01 2013 22:19 NEOtheONE wrote:
Quickest way to fix this is to change the way the shutdown works so the first people to not get paid are the President and Congress. You would never see a government shut down if their paychecks were on the line and not other people's like we have now.
The 27th amendment actually forbids this (at least for Congress) though that effect was unintended. It's the amendment that basically states that congressional salaries cannot be altered for the duration the term of which they are serving. It was intended to keep them from giving themselves instant raises but in effect also means that it's impossible/unconstitutional to lower or take away their salary until the next election cycle.
The full text of the amendment is really simple -
No law, varying the compensation for the services of the Senators and Representatives, shall take effect, until an election of Representatives shall have intervened.
Congress found a loophole around the amendment to get raises anyways, cost of living adjustments don't apply (supreme court declined hearing both cases but united states courts of appeals have upheld yearly COLAs as being constitutional twice)
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So this was cause of delay of affordable or free healthcare?
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What I do not understand the healthcare system is already a compromise and has so much problems thanks to this compromise. But I am not US so I do not understand all of it, sry I do not get what is wrong with a system that says "oh your kid broke a lag, dont worry about money your kid will get all the help it needs and dont worry about paying.
I look from the outside and have just to say: US Politics provides again best comedy in the world.
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