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On October 01 2013 22:16 Nevuk wrote:
The government shutdown is probably political suicide for the tea party. I think Boehner is secretly hoping that this kills the movement dead in its tracks (he's terrified of being primaried by a far right republican and barely won the speaker position in the most recent vote), there's no political advantage to be gained and he remembers 1996 well.
The position the house of representatives has taken is ludicrous but was also predictable enough that the vast majority of the ACA was placed under mandatory spending (which the house doesn't actually control) in expectations of something like this. The ACA is going into effect no matter what the GOP does, Government shutdown or no.
A government shutdown can mean that checks to even essential personnel are delayed until the shutdown is over simply because the employees who process payrolls are not deemed essential (estimates I've seen say that the Pentagon will run into this issue if the shutdown lasts longer than a week, despite congress passing a bill to pay troops during the shutdown).
The tea party picked the wrong issue to throw this fit over- freezing the debt ceiling is something that has at least mild support despite likely being economically worse (it would likely cause another Great Depression, but as one tea party representative said, "it would be a fun experiment"). A government shutdown basically has and has had no support whatsoever.
I don't know, a government shutdown seems right down the alley for hardcore teabaggers, sticking it to the big bad gubberment is kind of their thing.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On October 01 2013 21:24 Lonyo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 21:21 LaughingTulkas wrote:On October 01 2013 21:11 electronic voyeur wrote:http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/30/20758038-shutdown-begins-as-congress-remains-deadlocked?liteThe US Federal government has officially shut down.For the first time in nearly two decades, the federal government staggered into a partial shutdown Monday at midnight after congressional Republicans stubbornly demanded changes in the nation's health care law as the price for essential federal funding and President Barack Obama and Democrats adamantly refused. As Congress gridlocked, Obama said a "shutdown will have a very real economic impact on real people, right away," with hundreds of thousands of federal workers furloughed and veterans' centers, national parks, most of the space agency and other government operations shuttered. He laid the blame at the feet of House Republicans, whom he accused of seeking to tie government funding to ideological demands, "all to save face after making some impossible promises to the extreme right wing of their party.”
The shutdown is expected to place tens of thousands of federal workers on furlough, close national parks and monuments, and disrupt services like food assistance and IRS audits.
Services like benefit payments and national security operations would go on as usual, and -- because of a bipartisan measure passed by both houses of Congress and signed into law by the president late Monday -- members of the military will continue to be paid.
The new health care insurance "exchanges" mandated by the new health care law also went live even as the shutdown became official.
The full force of the shutdown has yet to be measured, and its effects have yet to be fully felt. Yet it is certain that the shutdown will have devastating short term and long term effects on all sectors of the US government. Do you think Obamacare should be revised? Should Congress have compromised? What could the government have done to prevent such a devastating event? It can't really be that devastating because both sides of the aisle would rather this happen than have any change in their stance on healthcare. So at least from their perspective, this is a the preferable outcome. Thinking that it's some catastrophic event is just media hype. Basically some fringe government employees are not going to have to go on furlough, which while very unfortunate for their families, is not some great terrible event in the grand scheme of things. Dems would rather have a shutdown than change Obamacare.
Rebs would rather have a shutdown than accept Obamacare.Q.E.D. we have a shutdown. (Hey, how about we cut back government spending so we don't have to keep borrowing more money to pay for the government and this whole issue goes away. Am I crazy? Cut all program's budgets by like 2% or whatever needed, I'm SURE there is fat to be trimmed and we don't have to lose any services.) As far as I have seen, the Dems position is entirely reasonable. It's not a negotiation as the Republicans aren't giving anything up, they are demanding something in return for their support for something they already support (raising the debt ceiling). They want to vote for it, but only on condition that Obamacare is delayed, and they already lost on that issue before, so it should not be up for discussion realistically, and the debt ceiling should not be used as a negotiation tool. Sufficient Republicans are being idiots about it, hence the screwed up position. Political parties fighting against each other rather than trying to help the country they are supposed to be in charge of.
More or less this.
User was warned for this post
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On October 01 2013 22:38 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 22:16 Nevuk wrote:
The government shutdown is probably political suicide for the tea party. I think Boehner is secretly hoping that this kills the movement dead in its tracks (he's terrified of being primaried by a far right republican and barely won the speaker position in the most recent vote), there's no political advantage to be gained and he remembers 1996 well.
The position the house of representatives has taken is ludicrous but was also predictable enough that the vast majority of the ACA was placed under mandatory spending (which the house doesn't actually control) in expectations of something like this. The ACA is going into effect no matter what the GOP does, Government shutdown or no.
A government shutdown can mean that checks to even essential personnel are delayed until the shutdown is over simply because the employees who process payrolls are not deemed essential (estimates I've seen say that the Pentagon will run into this issue if the shutdown lasts longer than a week, despite congress passing a bill to pay troops during the shutdown).
The tea party picked the wrong issue to throw this fit over- freezing the debt ceiling is something that has at least mild support despite likely being economically worse (it would likely cause another Great Depression, but as one tea party representative said, "it would be a fun experiment"). A government shutdown basically has and has had no support whatsoever. I don't know, I government shutdown seems right down the alley for hardcore teabaggers, sticking it to the big bad gubberment is kind of their thing.
Americans who hate America or America hates Americans? You decide!
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On October 01 2013 22:42 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 22:38 Squat wrote:On October 01 2013 22:16 Nevuk wrote:
The government shutdown is probably political suicide for the tea party. I think Boehner is secretly hoping that this kills the movement dead in its tracks (he's terrified of being primaried by a far right republican and barely won the speaker position in the most recent vote), there's no political advantage to be gained and he remembers 1996 well.
The position the house of representatives has taken is ludicrous but was also predictable enough that the vast majority of the ACA was placed under mandatory spending (which the house doesn't actually control) in expectations of something like this. The ACA is going into effect no matter what the GOP does, Government shutdown or no.
A government shutdown can mean that checks to even essential personnel are delayed until the shutdown is over simply because the employees who process payrolls are not deemed essential (estimates I've seen say that the Pentagon will run into this issue if the shutdown lasts longer than a week, despite congress passing a bill to pay troops during the shutdown).
The tea party picked the wrong issue to throw this fit over- freezing the debt ceiling is something that has at least mild support despite likely being economically worse (it would likely cause another Great Depression, but as one tea party representative said, "it would be a fun experiment"). A government shutdown basically has and has had no support whatsoever. I don't know, I government shutdown seems right down the alley for hardcore teabaggers, sticking it to the big bad gubberment is kind of their thing. Americans who hate America or America hates Americans? You decide!
It's even more amusing that they constantly reference the founding fathers(though perhaps not always being very clear on who they actually were, or what they did or said), and will always accuse detractors of being unamerican and unpatriotic. Irony at its finest.
If anything, the grossly irresponsible behaviour of opposing a political initiative that has majority support to the point of government shutdown should be considered highly unpatriotic, not to mention being very bad PR. Of course, rural teabaggers don't actually care about this, they seem to take some misguided pride in alienating the rest of the nation.
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On October 01 2013 22:29 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 22:19 NEOtheONE wrote:
Quickest way to fix this is to change the way the shutdown works so the first people to not get paid are the President and Congress. You would never see a government shut down if their paychecks were on the line and not other people's like we have now. The 27th amendment actually forbids this (at least for Congress) though that effect was unintended. It's the amendment that basically states that congressional salaries cannot be altered for the duration the term of which they are serving. It was intended to keep them from giving themselves instant raises but in effect also means that it's impossible/unconstitutional to lower or take away their salary until the next election cycle. The full text of the amendment is really simple - Show nested quote + No law, varying the compensation for the services of the Senators and Representatives, shall take effect, until an election of Representatives shall have intervened. Congress found a loophole around the amendment to get raises anyways, cost of living adjustments don't apply (supreme court declined hearing both cases but united states courts of appeals have upheld yearly COLAs as being constitutional twice)
So as long as it's not a "law" we can deny Congress their pay is what I am hearing. Also, you could just word a law such that if Congress does not perform the service that they are elected to perform they do not get paid, and it still fits with the wording of the amendment.
Also, the exact wording has never been tested with regards to a government shutdown as bills that would prevent Congress from getting paid in the event of a shutdown never made it out of Congress. Gee, I wonder why they never made it out of Congress. Greedy politicians.
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On October 01 2013 21:44 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 21:39 Th1rdEye wrote:On October 01 2013 21:32 jeremycafe wrote:It will all be over in a day or two, the country will move on, people will still get paid. Only ones who feel the suck are people who had plans to visit national parks. I have a 7 day backpacking trip planned for this friday, if the park is still closed by then I will surely be upset  Part of me believes this to be true as well. They all just wanted some vacation time. Who wouldn't? It was beautiful this past weekend. Anyway, it doesnt undermine the fact that Obamacare is a big big big big mistake and needs to be revised. It cannot pass in its current form. The middle class will be hurting. Most people work for corporations who already do not want to provide anything for their employees at times, and this will just give tons of otherwise healthy americans to pay for healthcare, all the while having their hours cut at work so they need to find part time work elsewhere which ends up costing more in the long run anyway. It's actually a pretty serious matter....I can't express how distasteful I am towards the Obamacare bill. I completely understand why people are so against obamacare, even though I don't agree. But saying "tons of otherwise healthy american" as if they shouldn't have to contribute because they're healthy is like saying people shouldn't have to pay for car insurance since they've never crashed their car before.
Car crashes happen with multiple cars sometimes. Your lack of insurance can cost someone else money or care. If you don't provide yourself with health insurance it is on you it doesn't really directly affect anyone else even though indirectly it does. Also on top of that our government would be more in control than for car insurance. And as we know our government fucks up everything it touches and inflates the cost of work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Capitol_Visitor_Center
just my favorite example.
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On October 01 2013 22:35 tadL wrote:
What I do not understand the healthcare system is already a compromise and has so much problems thanks to this compromise. But I am not US so I do not understand all of it, sry I do not get what is wrong with a system that says "oh your kid broke a lag, dont worry about money your kid will get all the help it needs and dont worry about paying.
I look from the outside and have just to say: US Politics provides again best comedy in the world.
politics. i bunch of tea partiers trying to take over their party, while mainstream republicans kneeling down trying to keep their jobs. cruz thinking he can become president in 2016.
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On October 01 2013 22:53 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 21:44 Clarity_nl wrote:On October 01 2013 21:39 Th1rdEye wrote:On October 01 2013 21:32 jeremycafe wrote:It will all be over in a day or two, the country will move on, people will still get paid. Only ones who feel the suck are people who had plans to visit national parks. I have a 7 day backpacking trip planned for this friday, if the park is still closed by then I will surely be upset Part of me believes this to be true as well. They all just wanted some vacation time. Who wouldn't? It was beautiful this past weekend. Anyway, it doesnt undermine the fact that Obamacare is a big big big big mistake and needs to be revised. It cannot pass in its current form. The middle class will be hurting. Most people work for corporations who already do not want to provide anything for their employees at times, and this will just give tons of otherwise healthy americans to pay for healthcare, all the while having their hours cut at work so they need to find part time work elsewhere which ends up costing more in the long run anyway. It's actually a pretty serious matter....I can't express how distasteful I am towards the Obamacare bill. I completely understand why people are so against obamacare, even though I don't agree. But saying "tons of otherwise healthy american" as if they shouldn't have to contribute because they're healthy is like saying people shouldn't have to pay for car insurance since they've never crashed their car before. Car crashes happen with multiple cars sometimes. Your lack of insurance can cost someone else money or care. If you don't provide yourself with health insurance it is on you it doesn't really directly affect anyone else even though indirectly it does. Also on top of that our government would be more in control than for car insurance. And as we know our government fucks up everything it touches and inflates the cost of work. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Capitol_Visitor_Centerjust my favorite example.
Who pays the care when a healthy person without health insurance ends up in the ER after a major car crash? Who pays for the cancer treatment of poor uninsured people with cancer? If they can't afford it, everyone pays for it through higher hospital fees.
That's one reason why it's important that everyone gets health insurance. Otherwise, you have to accept that this is inflating healthcare costs. The other alternative is let them die without treatment if they can't afford to pay for healthcare.
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If there is something about the US I will never understand it's this incredibly defeatist attitude regarding their government, is if everything it does is doomed to fail. Perhaps if entirely unsuitable people were not constantly elected it might not be such a clusterfuck. Bachman, Gingrich, Gohmert and the merry bunch make for great TV but aren't exactly the brightest and the best.
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"Impossible n'est pas français." -Napoléon Bonaparte
"Compromise n'est pas american politics." -US politicians
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On October 01 2013 22:38 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 22:16 Nevuk wrote:
The government shutdown is probably political suicide for the tea party. I think Boehner is secretly hoping that this kills the movement dead in its tracks (he's terrified of being primaried by a far right republican and barely won the speaker position in the most recent vote), there's no political advantage to be gained and he remembers 1996 well.
The position the house of representatives has taken is ludicrous but was also predictable enough that the vast majority of the ACA was placed under mandatory spending (which the house doesn't actually control) in expectations of something like this. The ACA is going into effect no matter what the GOP does, Government shutdown or no.
A government shutdown can mean that checks to even essential personnel are delayed until the shutdown is over simply because the employees who process payrolls are not deemed essential (estimates I've seen say that the Pentagon will run into this issue if the shutdown lasts longer than a week, despite congress passing a bill to pay troops during the shutdown).
The tea party picked the wrong issue to throw this fit over- freezing the debt ceiling is something that has at least mild support despite likely being economically worse (it would likely cause another Great Depression, but as one tea party representative said, "it would be a fun experiment"). A government shutdown basically has and has had no support whatsoever. I don't know, a government shutdown seems right down the alley for hardcore teabaggers, sticking it to the big bad gubberment is kind of their thing.
Stupid socialists/environmentalist-nutjobs shouldn't throw stones in glass houses, Squat.
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On October 01 2013 23:08 Subject011 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 22:38 Squat wrote:On October 01 2013 22:16 Nevuk wrote:
The government shutdown is probably political suicide for the tea party. I think Boehner is secretly hoping that this kills the movement dead in its tracks (he's terrified of being primaried by a far right republican and barely won the speaker position in the most recent vote), there's no political advantage to be gained and he remembers 1996 well.
The position the house of representatives has taken is ludicrous but was also predictable enough that the vast majority of the ACA was placed under mandatory spending (which the house doesn't actually control) in expectations of something like this. The ACA is going into effect no matter what the GOP does, Government shutdown or no.
A government shutdown can mean that checks to even essential personnel are delayed until the shutdown is over simply because the employees who process payrolls are not deemed essential (estimates I've seen say that the Pentagon will run into this issue if the shutdown lasts longer than a week, despite congress passing a bill to pay troops during the shutdown).
The tea party picked the wrong issue to throw this fit over- freezing the debt ceiling is something that has at least mild support despite likely being economically worse (it would likely cause another Great Depression, but as one tea party representative said, "it would be a fun experiment"). A government shutdown basically has and has had no support whatsoever. I don't know, a government shutdown seems right down the alley for hardcore teabaggers, sticking it to the big bad gubberment is kind of their thing. Stupid socialists/environmentalist-nutjobs shouldn't throw stones in glass houses, Squat.
So what is your take on this situation good sir? Surely you did not come here merely to throw random insults and buzzwords at me without knowing anything about my political stance?
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Well if Obama didn't back down to a Syrian dictator who gassed his own people, guess it makes sense he's not backing down to a bunch of people calling themselves a tea party.
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On October 01 2013 22:53 NEOtheONE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 22:29 Nevuk wrote:On October 01 2013 22:19 NEOtheONE wrote:
Quickest way to fix this is to change the way the shutdown works so the first people to not get paid are the President and Congress. You would never see a government shut down if their paychecks were on the line and not other people's like we have now. The 27th amendment actually forbids this (at least for Congress) though that effect was unintended. It's the amendment that basically states that congressional salaries cannot be altered for the duration the term of which they are serving. It was intended to keep them from giving themselves instant raises but in effect also means that it's impossible/unconstitutional to lower or take away their salary until the next election cycle. The full text of the amendment is really simple - No law, varying the compensation for the services of the Senators and Representatives, shall take effect, until an election of Representatives shall have intervened. Congress found a loophole around the amendment to get raises anyways, cost of living adjustments don't apply (supreme court declined hearing both cases but united states courts of appeals have upheld yearly COLAs as being constitutional twice) So as long as it's not a "law" we can deny Congress their pay is what I am hearing. Also, you could just word a law such that if Congress does not perform the service that they are elected to perform they do not get paid, and it still fits with the wording of the amendment. Also, the exact wording has never been tested with regards to a government shutdown as bills that would prevent Congress from getting paid in the event of a shutdown never made it out of Congress. Gee, I wonder why they never made it out of Congress. Greedy politicians.
I think we can all agree that congress should not get paid during a shutdown. But at the end of the day it is a mute point. They are all filthy rich and losing a few days pay would not scare them the slightest.
Nancy is worth 35.2 million in 2011.
They are all millionaires.
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On October 01 2013 23:24 jeremycafe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 22:53 NEOtheONE wrote:On October 01 2013 22:29 Nevuk wrote:On October 01 2013 22:19 NEOtheONE wrote:
Quickest way to fix this is to change the way the shutdown works so the first people to not get paid are the President and Congress. You would never see a government shut down if their paychecks were on the line and not other people's like we have now. The 27th amendment actually forbids this (at least for Congress) though that effect was unintended. It's the amendment that basically states that congressional salaries cannot be altered for the duration the term of which they are serving. It was intended to keep them from giving themselves instant raises but in effect also means that it's impossible/unconstitutional to lower or take away their salary until the next election cycle. The full text of the amendment is really simple - No law, varying the compensation for the services of the Senators and Representatives, shall take effect, until an election of Representatives shall have intervened. Congress found a loophole around the amendment to get raises anyways, cost of living adjustments don't apply (supreme court declined hearing both cases but united states courts of appeals have upheld yearly COLAs as being constitutional twice) So as long as it's not a "law" we can deny Congress their pay is what I am hearing. Also, you could just word a law such that if Congress does not perform the service that they are elected to perform they do not get paid, and it still fits with the wording of the amendment. Also, the exact wording has never been tested with regards to a government shutdown as bills that would prevent Congress from getting paid in the event of a shutdown never made it out of Congress. Gee, I wonder why they never made it out of Congress. Greedy politicians. I think we can all agree that congress should not get paid during a shutdown. But at the end of the day it is a mute point. They are all filthy rich and losing a few days pay would not scare them the slightest. Nancy is worth 35.2 million in 2011. They are all millionaires.
Also, few if any members of congress have that position as their main source of income, many are on boards, hired as consultants or experts by large corporations. Still, it would be a good symbolic action, if you don't want to work, you don't get paid.
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Hilarious.
It looks like the U.S. Chamber of Commerce did not get Ted Cruz’s memo that “President” Obama is actually the one shutting down the government, because POLITICO is reporting that the Chamber has “rallied nearly 240 groups to sign a letter Friday afternoon pushing Congress to avoid a government shutdown and to move fast to raise the debt ceiling.” [...] In all seriousness, this letter from the CoC [Chamber of Commerce] is perhaps the best evidence yet that the old-guard GOP and their corporate benefactors have finally lost control of the useful idiots they’ve been manipulating so successfully for so long. Nobody who has a fact-based idea of what could happen in a shutdown or — worse — a sovereign debt default wants either. But one is well on its way, and another is terrifyingly possible because most Republicans in Congress are more worried about appeasing the actual lunatics who vote in GOP primaries than doing the right thing for the country. Or they’re lunatics themselves. And what’s really great/terrible is that these lunatics are Frankenstein’s monsters stitched together by the constant lies and distortions of… the GOP, the Chamber of Commerce, and associated groups, in order to drum up support for “pro-business” policies. Usually we like irony, but fuck. Read more here: http://wonkette.com/530119/u-s-chamber-of-commerce-suddenly-very-worried-the-tea-party-lunacy-they-fostered-might-shut-down-government
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On October 01 2013 23:24 jeremycafe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 22:53 NEOtheONE wrote:On October 01 2013 22:29 Nevuk wrote:On October 01 2013 22:19 NEOtheONE wrote:
Quickest way to fix this is to change the way the shutdown works so the first people to not get paid are the President and Congress. You would never see a government shut down if their paychecks were on the line and not other people's like we have now. The 27th amendment actually forbids this (at least for Congress) though that effect was unintended. It's the amendment that basically states that congressional salaries cannot be altered for the duration the term of which they are serving. It was intended to keep them from giving themselves instant raises but in effect also means that it's impossible/unconstitutional to lower or take away their salary until the next election cycle. The full text of the amendment is really simple - No law, varying the compensation for the services of the Senators and Representatives, shall take effect, until an election of Representatives shall have intervened. Congress found a loophole around the amendment to get raises anyways, cost of living adjustments don't apply (supreme court declined hearing both cases but united states courts of appeals have upheld yearly COLAs as being constitutional twice) So as long as it's not a "law" we can deny Congress their pay is what I am hearing. Also, you could just word a law such that if Congress does not perform the service that they are elected to perform they do not get paid, and it still fits with the wording of the amendment. Also, the exact wording has never been tested with regards to a government shutdown as bills that would prevent Congress from getting paid in the event of a shutdown never made it out of Congress. Gee, I wonder why they never made it out of Congress. Greedy politicians. I think we can all agree that congress should not get paid during a shutdown. But at the end of the day it is a mute point. They are all filthy rich and losing a few days pay would not scare them the slightest. Nancy is worth 35.2 million in 2011. They are all millionaires.
I have a brother who works as a congressional staffer. He's not getting paid. Not filthy rich either. Basically congress does not function without their staff, if they don't get paid it a big problem.
Edit: to clarify my brother got furloughed like the rest of the govt which is why he isn't getting paid currently.
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On October 01 2013 22:42 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 22:38 Squat wrote:On October 01 2013 22:16 Nevuk wrote:
The government shutdown is probably political suicide for the tea party. I think Boehner is secretly hoping that this kills the movement dead in its tracks (he's terrified of being primaried by a far right republican and barely won the speaker position in the most recent vote), there's no political advantage to be gained and he remembers 1996 well.
The position the house of representatives has taken is ludicrous but was also predictable enough that the vast majority of the ACA was placed under mandatory spending (which the house doesn't actually control) in expectations of something like this. The ACA is going into effect no matter what the GOP does, Government shutdown or no.
A government shutdown can mean that checks to even essential personnel are delayed until the shutdown is over simply because the employees who process payrolls are not deemed essential (estimates I've seen say that the Pentagon will run into this issue if the shutdown lasts longer than a week, despite congress passing a bill to pay troops during the shutdown).
The tea party picked the wrong issue to throw this fit over- freezing the debt ceiling is something that has at least mild support despite likely being economically worse (it would likely cause another Great Depression, but as one tea party representative said, "it would be a fun experiment"). A government shutdown basically has and has had no support whatsoever. I don't know, I government shutdown seems right down the alley for hardcore teabaggers, sticking it to the big bad gubberment is kind of their thing. Americans who hate America or America hates Americans? You decide!
Freedom prevailed obviously.
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United States331 Posts
This is fun, I'm a federal employee, right now we cannot do our work, we have to be at the office, and we are not getting paid.
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On October 01 2013 23:37 insectoceanx wrote:
This is fun, I'm a federal employee, right now we cannot do our work, we have to be at the office, and we are not getting paid.
Haha oh wow, that's like the worst of all worlds. My sympathies.
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EPT
