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On July 11 2013 10:49 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote:
They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens. They do deserve rights as human beings though.
What about the rights they took from the people they've killed? The rights they took from the kids they raped. The rights they took from the families who's homes they broke into. Why should they have a right to be in the regular prison population so they can lead their gangs?
I think their guilt and the offenses they've committed justify their placement in solitary. They're more dangerous out of it than in it.
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I cant speak out for what is going on but in my opinion, the only thing they can protest is torture or violent abuse ( I dont know if this is going on or not ) by the prison guards. the fact that it is in a prison that makes this whole thing useless and disorganized. people start demanding things left right and centre equalling in no demands being met what so ever, even thou 1 or 2 may have had a real value to them.
The real way to do this would be if everyone here who agreed to the 'demand' the prisoners wanted would protest as well, but unfortunately just like the prisoners you don't, you don't realise this until you are in prison. ie no one really cares.
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On July 11 2013 12:28 Komentaja wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 12:11 WolfintheSheep wrote:On July 11 2013 12:05 Orcasgt24 wrote:On July 11 2013 12:01 phodacbiet wrote:On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote:
They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens. No. Because sometimes they got arrested for things like.. tax evasion, weed possession, or something minor and to be treated like that is unnecessary. Sure for the most crazy murderers these punishment MIGHT make sense but these prisoners still should deserve to be treated like human beings. Those are the kinds of prisoners who are not likely to be put in solitary. Most of those kinds of criminals will get out early due to good behavior. The charges that put you in prison have absolutely no relation to your behaviour inside of prison. In fact, a trademark of many serial killers and the like is extremely personable demeanor. LOL, tell that to the Korean killer in the large University killing a few years back (somewhere in the US). Whacked as a cornflake. That sounds like a bit of confirmation bias with a helpful serving of dramatic movies that shaped your opinion.
This part of your post literally refutes itself.
All this talk about weed possession and the like getting way too long of sentences -- relatively speaking, I agree with you. From the evidence the above poster gave. But they absolutely deserve it.
Huh?
You can talk about the prison system needing to be better and blah blah blah but I honestly can't think that sending a mugger, even, to a friendly rehabilitation center to get a degree and watch TV, or giving him a stern talking-to and a $100 fine are reasonable alternatives. Norway does seem to be doing better but they're very homogeneous, very small, and very rich. It's an interesting talking point but not really comparable to the US.
Why do you think that trying to rehabilitate a mugger is not a reasonable alternative? Suppose we had a machine that we could put criminals into (but only if they actually committed a crime; the machine doesn't work if there's no evidence!) which automatically rehabilitated them to having a moral compass roughly on par with the average noncriminal. Someone who goes through this machine should not have to serve any prison time, regardless of their sentence, unless there is the risk of the population attacking them.
Agree/Disagree?
What about the rights they took from the people they've killed? The rights they took from the kids they raped. The rights they took from the families who's homes they broke into. Why should they have a right to be in the regular prison population so they can lead their gangs?
What about the rights they took? That was illegal, ergo they were convicted of a crime for their action. Why should they have rights themselves? Um, the same reason as everyone else? I wasn't aware "inalienable" actually meant "inalienable (unless you commit crimes)." Weirdly, that would make those rights alienable. Huh. Funny how that works.
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On July 11 2013 11:25 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 11:20 a176 wrote:
You give them food and a place to sleep. What more do they deserve exactly? Rehabilitation. If all the correction system does is lock people in a box until they go mad then there is no justice, just revenge.
You can't rehabilitate a person any more than you can make a horse drink. If these guys wanted help they wouldn't have broken the law, and broken the prison rules that landed them in solitary in the first place. If they want out, they'll comply with the prison programs because solitary confinement is temporary..
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On July 11 2013 12:26 Epishade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 12:11 WolfintheSheep wrote:On July 11 2013 12:05 Orcasgt24 wrote:On July 11 2013 12:01 phodacbiet wrote:On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote:
They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens. No. Because sometimes they got arrested for things like.. tax evasion, weed possession, or something minor and to be treated like that is unnecessary. Sure for the most crazy murderers these punishment MIGHT make sense but these prisoners still should deserve to be treated like human beings. Those are the kinds of prisoners who are not likely to be put in solitary. Most of those kinds of criminals will get out early due to good behavior. The charges that put you in prison have absolutely no relation to your behaviour inside of prison. In fact, a trademark of many serial killers and the like is extremely personable demeanor. I wouldn't say that is is "no relation". You don't think some person who's always behaving very angrily isn't more likely to fly off the handle and kill someone? Sure, anyone could kill someone else regardless of behavior, but to say there's absolutely no correlation between charges and behavior, at least in the case of murder as in the example I used, is unreasonable.
I'd say someone always behaving angrily is much more likely to be put in prison for aggravated assault, and assault causing bodily harm, "something minor" as you would say.
I'd say a druggy who has been suddenly cut off his narcotics is much more likely to act irrationally and be uncooperative.
Someone who commits preplanned murder would probably be less impulsive than the above. Someone who committed manslaughter could likely never had any criminal intent, and killed purely by accident.
Some criminals might have tendencies towards more belligerent behaviour, but the likelihood of solitary confinement would not even remotely correlate to the severity of their crime.
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On July 11 2013 12:38 archides wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 11:25 Velocirapture wrote:On July 11 2013 11:20 a176 wrote:
You give them food and a place to sleep. What more do they deserve exactly? Rehabilitation. If all the correction system does is lock people in a box until they go mad then there is no justice, just revenge. You can't rehabilitate a person any more than you can make a horse drink.
Proof? There is a lot of sociology supporting the hypothesis that rehabilitation affects recidivism.
If these guys wanted help they wouldn't have broken the law,
Proof?
and broken the prison rules that landed them in solitary in the first place.
Proof?
If they want out, they'll comply with the prison programs because solitary confinement is temporary..
I don't think you understand how a human mind processes time, particularly in solitary confinement.
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On July 11 2013 12:42 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 12:38 archides wrote:On July 11 2013 11:25 Velocirapture wrote:On July 11 2013 11:20 a176 wrote:
You give them food and a place to sleep. What more do they deserve exactly? Rehabilitation. If all the correction system does is lock people in a box until they go mad then there is no justice, just revenge. You can't rehabilitate a person any more than you can make a horse drink. Proof? There is a lot of sociology supporting the hypothesis that rehabilitation affects recidivism. Proof? Show nested quote + and broken the prison rules that landed them in solitary in the first place. Proof? Show nested quote + If they want out, they'll comply with the prison programs because solitary confinement is temporary..
I don't think you understand how a human mind processes time, particularly in solitary confinement.
Don't bother brother, some people just dont get people.
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On July 11 2013 12:35 archides wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 10:49 superstartran wrote:On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote:
They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens. They do deserve rights as human beings though. What about the rights they took from the people they've killed? The rights they took from the kids they raped. The rights they took from the families who's homes they broke into. Why should they have a right to be in the regular prison population so they can lead their gangs? I think their guilt and the offenses they've committed justify their placement in solitary. They're more dangerous out of it than in it.
What about the rights they took from the pot they smoked?
WHAT OF THE HEMP
Seriously, there's this fucktarded delusion that everyone (or the majority) of people in U.S. prisons are baby raping homicidal maniacs. Considering we have more prisoners per capita, and more prisoners total than any other country in the world, one would posit that if that assumption were true, we wouldn't need a standing army as we could just release our prisoners against our enemies in times of war.
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On July 11 2013 11:00 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 10:47 Blargh wrote:
And I thought prison conditions were pretty good. Shit...
Honest post:
I think solitary confinement is probably pretty counter-productive, assuming the people aren't in jail for life. How many sane people actually come out of that?
It just seems weird that so many people would be protesting solitary confinement. Surely only a few people actually get that kind of "punishment". At least that shows that people in jail have some sympathy. They can't be that bad, heh.
@superstartran
Well, what is classified as a human right? They -ARE- given food, water, and technically shelter... Being able to see others? Not sure if that qualifies as a right, heh. Though, I don't necessarily agree with it. State prisons in the US are known for being shitty it varies drastically from state to state california for a long time has had a problem with conditions due to overcrowding, Federal prisons are starkly different though they are the prisons you think of.
Can you please elaborate on what you mean by ''shitty''?
This is what a shitty prison looks like here:
![[image loading]](http://www.brasilonlinenoticias.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/PRESIDIO-LOTADO.jpg)
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On July 11 2013 11:35 Assault_1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 11:25 Velocirapture wrote:On July 11 2013 11:20 a176 wrote:
You give them food and a place to sleep. What more do they deserve exactly? Rehabilitation. If all the correction system does is lock people in a box until they go mad then there is no justice, just revenge. whats wrong with revenge? If someone killed my friend I wouldn't wanna "rehab" him, I'd want to make his life very shitty
So he could be even more of a crazy person and kill someone else when he comes out? Or that he could stay in jail for the lengthiest period of time possible and cost a ton of the taxpayer money, instead of getting out earlier and actually help the society?
Yeah, great mentality. Torturing people is fun, even funnier when they "deserves" it by your own standard, right? I'm seriously wondering who really deserves to be in a prison : someone like you that doesn't give a shit about obviously disgusting and atrocious things like that simply because : "hey, they are in prison, they deserves to live hell!" or someone who made a terrible mistake by impulsion once and actually feel really guilty about it : which is most of the people in prisons.
And you realise most people are not in jail for murder?
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On July 11 2013 12:44 DDie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 11:00 semantics wrote:On July 11 2013 10:47 Blargh wrote:
And I thought prison conditions were pretty good. Shit...
Honest post:
I think solitary confinement is probably pretty counter-productive, assuming the people aren't in jail for life. How many sane people actually come out of that?
It just seems weird that so many people would be protesting solitary confinement. Surely only a few people actually get that kind of "punishment". At least that shows that people in jail have some sympathy. They can't be that bad, heh.
@superstartran
Well, what is classified as a human right? They -ARE- given food, water, and technically shelter... Being able to see others? Not sure if that qualifies as a right, heh. Though, I don't necessarily agree with it. State prisons in the US are known for being shitty it varies drastically from state to state california for a long time has had a problem with conditions due to overcrowding, Federal prisons are starkly different though they are the prisons you think of. Can you please elaborate on what you mean by ''shitty''? This is what a shitty prison looks like here:
Yea seems to be working, and what you can't fit in there you can always fix with a little social cleansing.
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On July 11 2013 12:28 Komentaja wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 12:11 WolfintheSheep wrote:On July 11 2013 12:05 Orcasgt24 wrote:On July 11 2013 12:01 phodacbiet wrote:On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote:
They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens. No. Because sometimes they got arrested for things like.. tax evasion, weed possession, or something minor and to be treated like that is unnecessary. Sure for the most crazy murderers these punishment MIGHT make sense but these prisoners still should deserve to be treated like human beings. Those are the kinds of prisoners who are not likely to be put in solitary. Most of those kinds of criminals will get out early due to good behavior. The charges that put you in prison have absolutely no relation to your behaviour inside of prison. In fact, a trademark of many serial killers and the like is extremely personable demeanor. You can talk about the prison system needing to be better and blah blah blah but I honestly can't think that sending a mugger, even, to a friendly rehabilitation center to get a degree and watch TV, or giving him a stern talking-to and a $100 fine are reasonable alternatives. Norway does seem to be doing better but they're very homogeneous, very small, and very rich. It's an interesting talking point but not really comparable to the US.
It's actually a lot cheaper for you to rehabilitate that mugger and finance his degree than essentially pushing him deeper into criminality and probably having him spend most of his life in prison for more serious crimes. Aside from that it helps society 'cause that dude is far less likely to commit further crimes, he will be part of the workforce and his children are more likely to not be criminal.
Of course this does not magically solve all problems, but it seems to work pretty good where employed.
Probably won't happen though, because some genius got the completely insane idea to privatize the prison system
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The "war on drugs" and the privatization of the American prison system is a national disgrace.
Thanks to the "war on drugs" the system now funnels ever increasing numbers of children and non-violent drug offenders directly to prisons. All parties are now incentivized to increase the prison population; the federal government assigns drug war funds based on the number of drug arrests, police forces enforce points systems that financially encourage arrests, and judges receive millions in kickbacks to send kids to private prisons. With such a system in place, it's no wonder that private prison company CEO's are assuring their shareholders that there's "strong demand" for more inmates to pour into the cells.
Nobody should then be surprised that, at the expense of the American taxpayer, private prisons don't save governments any money and worse, inmates who are sent to a private prison have an increased risk of recidivism. Although that is to be expected when the pressure to cut costs leads private prisons to deploy fewer and less experienced jailers.
In a nation that has the highest incarceration rate in the recorded history of mankind it's astounding to read just how ignorant some people are around here about the reality of the situation. Despite the fact that many people seem to write off all offenders as sub-human dirt bags who deserve the worst treatment we can muster (that aspect of American pound-me-in-the-ass culture is a whole other topic), one wonders if the increasingly barbaric and cruel abuse of inmates is really the best course of action for the nation.
But hey, most of us here on TL are white, so we don't have that much to worry about (yet). So let's all go be responsible contributors to society, unlike all those rats who are locked up, and do something constructive with our time... like investing!
Private prisons are among the most egregious examples of the insidiousness of the corporate takeover of the American government.
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Raising solitary confinement to the level of torture totally debases the word torture to the point where it has little, if any, meaning. It has been widely overused unfortunately. Solitary should be for only prisoners who are actually violent towards guards and other inmates, or prisoners whose crimes show them to be inherently too dangerous to be mixed with others. And quite frankly, there are people who deserve to be locked away, other contact with others, regardless of the negative effects on them.
The main cause for the drop in crime in the US in the last 20 years has been the jailing of criminals for longer periods of time, since the majority of crimes are committed by repeat offenders, a good thing, and because of the drug war, a bad thing. If we took the drug issue out of the criminal justice system's jurisdiction and made it entirely a public health issue (as it should be), you'd see the prison population drop by a few hundred thousand, not an insignificant amount.
Interlocking trend #1: in a world increasingly moving away from crude old-fashioned discipline, prison is a disciplinarian institution – and should be seen as old-fashioned, too
Interlocking trend #2: in a world growing to acknowledge the importance of social ties, prison is an isolating institution – and so should seem out of place
Interlocking trend #3: in a society becoming increasingly aware of mental health challenges, prison is a hub of mental health challenges and so should be scrutinised
Interlocking trend #4: in a society (at times) concerned with equality, prison highlights the discrimination faced by Maori in New Zealand – and so should be rethought
Interlocking trend #5: in a world concerned with evidence-based and effective policy interventions, prison is an ineffective intervention – and so should be largely abandoned
#1: prison is not crude or old-fashioned, this point is an argument by semantics. Call prison disciplinarian (duh) and say that disciplinarianism is crude and old-fashioned and maybe if you do it enough people will believe you. Disciplinarianism, crude and old-fashioned? More like the lack of disciplinarianism has caused crude outcomes in society. "Old-fashioned" a pejorative? Please.
#2: That's the point of prison. Isolating people who commit crimes from the civilian population until is time to let them out again. I see zero problem with prison isolating the social ties of prisoners. These arguments seem to be fuzzy touchy-feely if we are just nicer to people they will improve their behavior. This is dubious at best when dealing with recidivists. I doubt the author has had much contact with people whose main occupation is committing crimes.
#3: Prisons becoming a dumping zone for the mentally ill has been a major public policy mistake and should be scrutinized and the practice reversed. The mentally ill who commit crimes should be in mental institutions.
#4: Racial minorities are disproportionately represented in prison populations in white-majority countries for a simple reason: they commit a disproportionately large amount of crimes. "Rethinking" prisons will not cause this situation to change so why prisons should be the focus of it is a mystery. It is simplistic and anti-reality thinking to say that the prison population should be a mirror of the demographics of society. I doubt if whites were overrepresented in prison populations that many people would have a problem with it at all. If you want "equality" (what?) in prison population, deal with the issues of why minorities commit a disproportionate amount of crimes. Living in an environment where many or most of the people have been to jail is one of those reasons, but economic and internal culture factors are much more important.
#5: This makes zero sense. More criminals in prison for longer periods of time = lower crime rate. That isn't an opinion, it's a fact.
The evidence shows that prison as an institution focused more on rehabilitation rather than punishment is what is effective. The author has made the mistake of conflating prison with vindictive treatment.
Reducing the prison population would allow for more division of inmates, so hardcore career criminals do not mix with first-time offenders or those who have a chance to turn their lives around. It would also allow for treatment of prisoners to be improved so there is less chance of an anti-social mindset developing among inmates, a prime cause for returning to crime when released.
Prison is a necessary part of society, but the point of it should not be to debase prisoners by treating them like animals and expecting them to act like animals, which of course causes them to act like animals. Every time I see a snippet of a show like Beyond Scared Straight or one of those "Life Inside" style documentaries, I'm amazed at the way the guards allow and/or actually encourage prisoners to act and the way the guards treat the prisoners themselves. Nothing seems more likely to me to encourage recidivism upon release than the practice of indiscriminately mixing prisoners together, treating them with hostility and contempt, and allowing them to form gangs and generally act like it's Lord of the Flies as long as (too much) violence isn't used.
But sorry, if people commit crimes, I want them locked away until it's time to let them out. Saying prisons need to be done away with is naive to the point of folly.
Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 12:51 BuddhaMonk wrote:The "war on drugs" and the privatization of the American prison system is a national disgrace. Thanks to the "war on drugs" the system now funnels ever increasing numbers of children and non-violent drug offenders directly to prisons. All parties are now incentivized to increase the prison population; the federal government assigns drug war funds based on the number of drug arrests, police forces enforce points systems that financially encourage arrests, and judges receive millions in kickbacks to send kids to private prisons. With such a system in place, it's no wonder that private prison company CEO's are assuring their shareholders that there's "strong demand" for more inmates to pour into the cells. Nobody should then be surprised that, at the expense of the American taxpayer, private prisons don't save governments any money and worse, inmates who are sent to a private prison have an increased risk of recidivism. Although that is to be expected when the pressure to cut costs leads private prisons to deploy fewer and less experienced jailers. In a nation that has the highest incarceration rate in the recorded history of mankind it's astounding to read just how ignorant some people are around here about the reality of the situation. Despite the fact that many people seem to write off all offenders as sub-human dirt bags who deserve the worst treatment we can muster (that aspect of American pound-me-in-the-ass culture is a whole other topic), one wonders if the increasingly barbaric and cruel abuse of inmates is really the best course of action for the nation. But hey, most of us here on TL are white, so we don't have that much to worry about (yet). So let's all go be responsible contributors to society, unlike all those rats who are locked up, and do something constructive with our time... like investing! Prisons are among the most egregious examples of the insidiousness of the corporate takeover of the American government.
It's sad how 90% of your post is right but it's 100% wrong because you're just being an asshole about it.
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On July 11 2013 12:38 archides wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 11:25 Velocirapture wrote:On July 11 2013 11:20 a176 wrote:
You give them food and a place to sleep. What more do they deserve exactly? Rehabilitation. If all the correction system does is lock people in a box until they go mad then there is no justice, just revenge. You can't rehabilitate a person any more than you can make a horse drink. If these guys wanted help they wouldn't have broken the law, and broken the prison rules that landed them in solitary in the first place. If they want out, they'll comply with the prison programs because solitary confinement is temporary..
This is completely untrue and a huge cop out. It is a VERY small percentage of prisoners who are both mentally fit and completely unable to be rehabilitated. It is all well and good to talk about "temporary" from the outside, but prisoners in general population are under incredible stress and administrative segregation multiplies that by a hundred.
Imprisonment is just short of torture by all accounts. The only difference between perspectives is which you value higher, a victim's revenge or the health of our society. Both are important but you have to draw a line.
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Um, guys... this discussion seems to have devolved into comparisons of crimes rather quickly. Even a murderer is a human and deserves protection of his human rights (also lots of confusion about human and civil rights here). Just a reminder, every member of the UN (USA are a member) signed the UN Charter which includes abiding by this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights
Article 5.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
I hope nobody disagrees that solitary confinement is degrading, cruel torture.
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I hope nobody disagrees that solitary confinement is degrading, cruel torture.
It's not. Saying it is is ridiculous.
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On July 11 2013 12:35 archides wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 10:49 superstartran wrote:On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote:
They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens. They do deserve rights as human beings though. What about the rights they took from the people they've killed? The rights they took from the kids they raped. The rights they took from the families who's homes they broke into. Why should they have a right to be in the regular prison population so they can lead their gangs? I think their guilt and the offenses they've committed justify their placement in solitary. They're more dangerous out of it than in it.
More than 50% of criminals incarcerated did not commit a violent crime.
Even if someone did commit murder, rape, or broke into a home does not give you the right to torture them.
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Solitary confinement isn't torture though so repeated admonitions that no matter what people do it isn't okay to torture them are non-sequitirs.
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EPT
