On July 26 2013 07:32 MostGroce wrote: Prison should be a place where people go after they get caught where they can be happy, eat well, and be treated like great citizens. I can't believe all their comforts aren't being met.
We should pay for them to have sleep # beds and 60 inch 1080p tv's with xbox's, that way they can regret their actions.
You stole from people and got caught? Here, go take a vacation for a year and think about what you did. rofl.....
There's actually a middle way between xboxs and torture.
Its just rare you see that middle way. Either the prisons are so filthy and dangerous its pretty much inhuman to sentence people to such a place. Carandiru prison was such a place before it got shut down.
Or, the "prisons" are so luxuries that you don't get a sense of punishement, or those close to the victim don't get a sense of justice. Its supposed to be a place where criminals don't want to come back to, but if they don't offer anything but nice beds, HD TV, access to internet etc., then why be afraid of 1-3 years in prison every time you get caught?
Its hard to make a prison where every need gets met, because we want to rehabilitate people, but at the same time, give out exact justice.
You realize the prison in that video has one of the lowest rate of re-offenders in the world, right?
Because if we come to accept false positives, say just one, why stop there? What would stop that society from then moving up to 5 or 6? It's slippery.
Also, would you still feel that way if it was a family member? That's not an argument, but I'm curious about how you'd feel.
You misunderstand his point, but I get what you're saying. The correct counter-argument would be that false positives that result in execution cannot be accepted in the same way that false positives that result in less extreme forms of punishment can be because unlike the latter, the former cannot be undone. Yes, if you spend ten years in prison due to a false conviction, that's crappy, but at least the state can compensate you for it. If you get executed due to a false conviction, there's no way to fix that at all.
Because if we come to accept false positives, say just one, why stop there? What would stop that society from then moving up to 5 or 6? It's slippery.
Also, would you still feel that way if it was a family member? That's not an argument, but I'm curious about how you'd feel.
You misunderstand his point, but I get what you're saying. The correct counter-argument would be that false positives that result in execution cannot be accepted in the same way that false positives that result in less extreme forms of punishment can be because unlike the latter, the former cannot be undone. Yes, if you spend ten years in prison due to a false conviction, that's crappy, but at least the state can compensate you for it. If you get executed due to a false conviction, there's no way to fix that at all.
Do states compensate for false convictions? Can they be sued?
Because if we come to accept false positives, say just one, why stop there? What would stop that society from then moving up to 5 or 6? It's slippery.
Also, would you still feel that way if it was a family member? That's not an argument, but I'm curious about how you'd feel.
You misunderstand his point, but I get what you're saying. The correct counter-argument would be that false positives that result in execution cannot be accepted in the same way that false positives that result in less extreme forms of punishment can be because unlike the latter, the former cannot be undone. Yes, if you spend ten years in prison due to a false conviction, that's crappy, but at least the state can compensate you for it. If you get executed due to a false conviction, there's no way to fix that at all.
Do states compensate for false convictions? Can they be sued?
You have to apply for it, and it's not given out to everyone who has their sentence annulled, but yes you can get compensation and no, you don't have to sue to get it.
I think it's capped at $500k in the US for under 10 years incarceration, and $1m for over 10 years.
Justice is neither punishment, nor rehabilitation. It is restitution for the victim. What makes crime so bad is not that there are criminals, but that crime causes actual harm to victims, and it is the harmed victim who should be at the forefront of the criminal justice system. Obviously we cannot erase some crimes, but we can at least try to do what we can to minimize the harm done.
Western culture completely forgets about and discards the victim. The victim is seen as a merely a piece of evidence in a trial, while all the focus is on the criminal. How to judge the criminal, how to treat the criminal, how to rehabilitate the criminal. Threads such as these reveal that distinction.
Restitution to the victim should be the primary concern, deterrence and punishment should be secondary priorities. Any money that the government procures through prison-based work or industries should be used primarily to compensate the victims, and restitution should also be a factor in probation or release of a criminal.
What about other basic rights that victims should have in our legal system? The right to be present, to be consulted, and to be heard during the criminal proceedings. The right to have a say in release or plea negotiations. The right to confer with prosecutors or the court to make their desires known. The right to be informed of all the criminal proceedings, and informed of release or transfer.
We need a victim oriented criminal justice system, where all of these victim rights would be viewed as self evident instead of forgotten. And this applies to the media as well. Instead of nonstop coverage of the psychopath, how about coverage of the suffering individuals and families, or the heroes who lend a helping hand? Obviously deterrence and recidivism are important to prevent more victims in the future, but we don't need to disregard restitution and victims rights to achieve that end.
On July 26 2013 16:07 Artax wrote: Justice is neither punishment, nor rehabilitation. It is restitution for the victim. What makes crime so bad is not that there are criminals, but that crime causes actual harm to victims, and it is the harmed victim who should be at the forefront of the criminal justice system. Obviously we cannot erase some crimes, but we can at least try to do what we can to minimize the harm done.
Western culture completely forgets about and discards the victim. The victim is seen as a merely a piece of evidence in a trial, while all the focus is on the criminal. How to judge the criminal, how to treat the criminal, how to rehabilitate the criminal. Threads such as these reveal that distinction.
Restitution to the victim should be the primary concern, deterrence and punishment should be secondary priorities. Any money that the government procures through prison-based work or industries should be used primarily to compensate the victims, and restitution should also be a factor in probation or release of a criminal.
What about other basic rights that victims should have in our legal system? The right to be present, to be consulted, and to be heard during the criminal proceedings. The right to have a say in release or plea negotiations. The right to confer with prosecutors or the court to make their desires known. The right to be informed of all the criminal proceedings, and informed of release or transfer.
We need a victim oriented criminal justice system, where all of these victim rights would be viewed as self evident instead of forgotten. And this applies to the media as well. Instead of nonstop coverage of the psychopath, how about coverage of the suffering individuals and families, or the heroes who lend a helping hand? Obviously deterrence and recidivism are important to prevent more victims in the future, but we don't need to disregard restitution and victims rights to achieve that end.
Sure, if you want a system that drains public money, fills prisons, and creates criminals that are guaranteed to re-offend, by all means keep pushing forward with a system that has failed time and time again.
Why on earth should they be allowed to demand anything when they are behind bars. Yes they should not live without the basics (Food/Water/Toilets/Shower) but anything on top of that is all a plus. There are people who are homeless who have done nothing wrong and live without those 4 things! Why right do people who have broken the law and chosen to do things that are wrong, be able to demand a better lifestyle on the inside!
Yes i can see that "Excessive" solitary confinement is a problem, however im pretty sure Solitary confinement is only used when they have broken rules again inside the prison? Not done to them because they haven't done anything? They don't just take it in turns to put people in solitary confinement everyday. Maybe they need to look into the time and how long they are kept in confinement, but they sure shouldn't stop it, or what is the disadvantage or punishment for being in prison and to break the rules, there needs to be discipline, that is how they are going to get fixed.
My opinion is to cut down the length of time they are in confinement for if it is deemed bad for your mental health over long periods. But not remove it completely or there will be no punishment for those who break the rules of prisons!
I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
in most countries, those people werent in jail in the first place.
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
The problem is that laws (at least in the US) are way too strict. It is very difficult to not break the law. Over half the people in prison are there for drug crimes which didn't actually hurt anyone else, do you really think that more than 1% of the US population are really criminals who need to be locked up? When there are over 5,000 laws just at the federal level, how are you possibly supposed to be sure to know what you can and can't do?
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
The problem is that laws (at least in the US) are way too strict. It is very difficult to not break the law. Over half the people in prison are there for drug crimes which didn't actually hurt anyone else, do you really think that more than 1% of the US population are really criminals who need to be locked up? When there are over 5,000 laws just at the federal level, how are you possibly supposed to be sure to know what you can and can't do?
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
The problem is that laws (at least in the US) are way too strict. It is very difficult to not break the law. Over half the people in prison are there for drug crimes which didn't actually hurt anyone else, do you really think that more than 1% of the US population are really criminals who need to be locked up? When there are over 5,000 laws just at the federal level, how are you possibly supposed to be sure to know what you can and can't do?
The countless laws that you don't know about and don't require you to know about them to be convicted, or for you to not have knowledge. Like you sleep with a girl who says she is 18 but she isn't really 18 and her parents find out and press charges. Or you violate some law that is created after you made decision relevent to it, like the guy who bought a gun and then 5 years later violated the new law against possession of the gun. Or you open a new business and you don't have the appropriate size windows or tiling or something and violate a regulation you've never heard of. Or you bring a knife somewhere and end up in an area banning knives for some reason without knowing it.
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
The problem is that laws (at least in the US) are way too strict. It is very difficult to not break the law. Over half the people in prison are there for drug crimes which didn't actually hurt anyone else, do you really think that more than 1% of the US population are really criminals who need to be locked up? When there are over 5,000 laws just at the federal level, how are you possibly supposed to be sure to know what you can and can't do?
The countless laws that you don't know about and don't require you to know about them to be convicted, or for you to not have knowledge. Like you sleep with a girl who says she is 18 but she isn't really 18 and her parents find out and press charges. Or you violate some law that is created after you made decision relevent to it, like the guy who bought a gun and then 5 years later violated the new law against possession of the gun. Or you open a new business and you don't have the appropriate size windows or tiling or something and violate a regulation you've never heard of. Or you bring a knife somewhere and end up in an area banning knives for some reason without knowing it.
Show me where someone was sent to prison for having the wrong size windows at their place of business.
I hope he actually wanted to talk about how you end up in prison very quick in the US for what many other countries would consider "small" crimes. Which is afaik the truth?
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
The problem is that laws (at least in the US) are way too strict. It is very difficult to not break the law. Over half the people in prison are there for drug crimes which didn't actually hurt anyone else, do you really think that more than 1% of the US population are really criminals who need to be locked up? When there are over 5,000 laws just at the federal level, how are you possibly supposed to be sure to know what you can and can't do?
Unfortunately in NYC, there are a couple precincts who have been accussed of unlawful arrests in order to bolster up those numbers. Also, racial profiling for small amounts of marijuana possession are also increasing prison sizes.
"Inmates at prisons throughout the state are still refusing meals to protest conditions for gang members held in solitary confinement at Pelican Bay State Prison near Eureka.
But the number of participants has continuously decreased since the hunger strike first started more than two weeks ago, prison officials said.
On Wednesday 707 inmates at 10 California prisons were on a hunger strike, said Jeffrey Callison, a spokesman for California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation. That's down from the 12,421 inmates on July 11.
About 30,000 inmates refused state-issued breakfast and lunch on July 8 when rumors of the strike started circulating. But it was not recognized as an official protest until a few days later because CDCR does not consider an inmate to be on a hunger strike until he or she has missed nine consecutive meals."
If you think every American prisoner deserves to be in prison, you must think Americans are inherently more evil than other nationalities...
We lock up too many non-violent offenders. It's an absolutely disgusting way to treat people. It's probably our biggest hypocrisy, calling ourselves land of the free, when we lock up more of our own citizens than any other country. And it solves nothing.
Solitary confinement doesn't have to be completely dire. If we let the prisoners bring books with them, cards, or other forms of mild stimulation. But even that line of thinking goes against the grain of our prison-system's way of thinking it seems. We just have some major self-righteous d-bags running our prison-system.
honestly, yes they have rights, but they gave up those rights when they committed a crime. Let them hunger strike. Why should i have pity for them when that murder or that the thief robbed or killed my friend. No...... fuck that.
EPT
