Nearly 29,000 inmates in California state prisons refused meals for the third day Wednesday during a protest of prison conditions and rules. The protest extended to two-thirds of the 33 prisons across the state and all 4 private out-of-state facilities where California sends inmates, corrections officials said.
Thousands of prisoners also refused to attend their work assignments for a third day, and state officials were bracing for a long-term strike.
Once the state tallies the official number of participants, the hunger strike could become the largest in state history. A similar hunger strike over several weeks in 2011 had about 6,000 participants at its official peak, corrections officials said, and a strike that fall had about 4,200.
The protest is centered on the state’s aggressive solitary confinement practices, but it appeared to have attracted support from many prisoners with their own demands for changes in prison conditions.
The human brain is ill-adapted to such conditions, and activists and some psychologists equate it to torture. Solitary confinement isn’t merely uncomfortable, they say, but such an anathema to human needs that it often drives prisoners mad.
In isolation, people become anxious and angry, prone to hallucinations and wild mood swings, and unable to control their impulses. The problems are even worse in people predisposed to mental illness, and can wreak long-lasting changes in prisoners’ minds.
“What we’ve found is that a series of symptoms occur almost universally. They are so common that it’s something of a syndrome,” said psychiatrist Terry Kupers of the Wright Institute, a prominent critic of solitary confinement. “I’m afraid we’re talking about permanent damage.” ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyways, this is an important topic for me. Prisoners are treated like shite all over the world and throughout history. Check it out. Also, take note of the second paragraph above. This is happening across 20 prisons. No walls or jail cells will stay up or locked when the human spirit cries out for dignity.
And I thought prison conditions were pretty good. Shit...
Honest post: I think solitary confinement is probably pretty counter-productive, assuming the people aren't in jail for life. How many sane people actually come out of that?
It just seems weird that so many people would be protesting solitary confinement. Surely only a few people actually get that kind of "punishment". At least that shows that people in jail have some sympathy. They can't be that bad, heh.
@superstartran Well, what is classified as a human right? They -ARE- given food, water, and technically shelter... Being able to see others? Not sure if that qualifies as a right, heh. Though, I don't necessarily agree with it.
They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
They do deserve rights as human beings though.
Exactly. Doesn't mean we can torture people simply because they are in prison.
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
I thought the point of prison was to provide disincentives for crime, rehabilitate people so they can be brought back into society, and/or prevent people from committing further crimes, not subject people to inhumane conditions that worsen their mental state.
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
in my opinion, there are many people in prison who do not deserve to be in prison
On July 11 2013 10:47 Blargh wrote: And I thought prison conditions were pretty good. Shit...
Honest post: I think solitary confinement is probably pretty counter-productive, assuming the people aren't in jail for life. How many sane people actually come out of that?
It just seems weird that so many people would be protesting solitary confinement. Surely only a few people actually get that kind of "punishment". At least that shows that people in jail have some sympathy. They can't be that bad, heh.
@superstartran Well, what is classified as a human right? They -ARE- given food, water, and technically shelter... Being able to see others? Not sure if that qualifies as a right, heh. Though, I don't necessarily agree with it.
State prisons in the US are known for being shitty it varies drastically from state to state california for a long time has had a problem with conditions due to overcrowding, Federal prisons are starkly different though they are the prisons you think of.
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
There's a huge group of philosophers studying ethics and morality that are basically saying that we all live with a big belief and assumption that A) we all have Free Will, and B) we all have Ultimate Moral Responsibility. What they're arguing is that that long held belief, while necessary to function, is actual a big fallacy. We've totally stopped taking into account the idea of nurturance, not only by parents, but by reality and society as a whole.
In any case, I think your statement assumes that, and I have to disagree myself, not only because of what I've laid out, but also because I believe that every person, no matter the crime, deserves some rights and a shred of basic humanity, even if it's just to try to understand them.
Positions like yours (with all due respect) wants to just write off whole swaths of people, separate them from us, as if we could do that. I understand that position and where it might come from, but fundamentallly, I think it's wrong.
EDIT: Just to clarify, it doesn't mean I condone criminal acts or don't find them reprehensible, but I do think to write them off because of crimes they did of "their own free will" is a dismissive act that doesn't actually tackle the problem.
They are in jail for a reason, and i for one think they get to fair of treatment. Let them not eat, maybe they can cut costs on food and give back to the taxpayers, or raise the guards pay a bit.
On July 11 2013 11:03 Kenthros wrote: They are in jail for a reason, and i for one think they get to fair of treatment. Let them not eat, maybe they can cut costs on food and give back to the taxpayers, or raise the guards pay a bit.
Yeah, but jail is one thing. To essentially torture them, to create a defacto law in the prison that isn't part of their original sentence and leads to behaviors that add onto punishment and ongoing psychological trauma AFTER they get released is another thing. Why would we want to treat these prisoners so badly when eventually they're going to be released into "polite, civilized" society? Then what? Recidivism rates go up. When we release broken men, men that the US prison system have broken, where does all that bitterness and anger go?
Norway, I believe, has some of the lower recidivism rates lately, and I can't help but think it's because they treat their prisoners like people, that is, humanely. What about the US? We have not some of the highest recidivism rate but THE highest world-wide.
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
There's a huge group of philosophers studying ethics and morality that are basically saying that we all live with a big belief and assumption that A) we all have Free Will, and B) we all have Ultimate Moral Responsibility. What they're arguing is that that long held belief, while necessary to function, is actual a big fallacy. We've totally stopped taking into account the idea of nurturance, not only by parents, but by reality and society as a whole.
In any case, I think your statement assumes that, and I have to disagree myself, not only because of what I've laid out, but also because I believe that every person, no matter the crime, deserves some rights and a shred of basic humanity, even if it's just to try to understand them.
Positions like yours (with all due respect) wants to just write off whole swaths of people, separate them from us, as if we could do that. I understand that position and where it might come from, but fundamentallly, I think it's wrong.
I couldn't agree more with this post. We are to a large extent a product of our environment and genetics. The idea that good people can be easily separated from bad people is very questionable, especially in prisons where ethnic minorities, poor people, and mentally ill people are over represented.
On July 11 2013 11:03 Kenthros wrote: They are in jail for a reason, and i for one think they get to fair of treatment. Let them not eat, maybe they can cut costs on food and give back to the taxpayers, or raise the guards pay a bit.
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
There's a huge group of philosophers studying ethics and morality that are basically saying that we all live with a big belief and assumption that A) we all have Free Will, and B) we all have Ultimate Moral Responsibility. What they're arguing is that that long held belief, while necessary to function, is actual a big fallacy. We've totally stopped taking into account the idea of nurturance, not only by parents, but by reality and society as a whole.
In any case, I think your statement assumes that, and I have to disagree myself, not only because of what I've laid out, but also because I believe that every person, no matter the crime, deserves some rights and a shred of basic humanity, even if it's just to try to understand them.
Positions like yours (with all due respect) wants to just write off whole swaths of people, separate them from us, as if we could do that. I understand that position and where it might come from, but fundamentallly, I think it's wrong.
I couldn't agree more with this post. We are to a large extent a product of our environment and genetics. The idea that good people can be easily separated from bad people is very questionable, especially in prisons where ethnic minorities, poor people, and mentally ill people are over represented.
Well, I do think we have to address abberant and delinquent behavior. I think they need to be separated from society while they're dangerous. But what you said about minorities and those on the low part of the economic scale being in prison seems systemic to me and circular.
Not to mention the fact that minorities are often targeted unjustly by the police. Just the other day, I was in a part of Brooklyn that I used to live in and they were stopping every black person and checking their ID, which is profiling. More than 80% of pot arrests for small amounts (which is decriminilized by the way on the state level) are latino or black. There are corruption allegations against at least two precincts for trying to boost numbers illegally by doing illegal arrests.
So not everyone in jail deserves to be there. But I don't know what the answer is. Just because we don't have overarching ultimate responsibility, it doesn't mean that we don't have responsibility or choices, small 'r' and 'c'. Our choices though are limited by a bevy of influences throughout our lifetime that we just can't control: our place in time, space, famillies, countries, etc.
It's all dialogues with philosophers, biologists, neurologists, and lots more. It kind of solidified a lot of my own moral and ethical values and ideas...well, more opened them up (I hope). The Philip Zimbardo interview is worth it alone for the entire book. Great read.
Ummm, I may be a hard ass but prisons are not meant to be easy vacations. They are meant as punishment. The only reason your in a prison is because you did something that negatively affects society. Be a good prisoner and you won't have to go to solitary.
I see no problem at all with that system. If they don't want to eat, whatever. Hopefully the corrections officials don't cave and and another 1 star to each prisons hotel rating
On July 11 2013 11:20 a176 wrote: You give them food and a place to sleep. What more do they deserve exactly?
Contrary to popular belief, that kind of attitude only compounds the problem. Here's an excellent article pointing out why prison as a tool of retribution is increasingly out of line with social developments. While written from the point of view of someone from NZ, the points he raises are valid in almost every western democracy. http://justspeak.org.nz/escaping-prison-the-need-to-distance-ourselves-from-punitive-prison-policy/
He covers the following points:
Interlocking trend #1: in a world increasingly moving away from crude old-fashioned discipline, prison is a disciplinarian institution – and should be seen as old-fashioned, too
Interlocking trend #2: in a world growing to acknowledge the importance of social ties, prison is an isolating institution – and so should seem out of place
Interlocking trend #3: in a society becoming increasingly aware of mental health challenges, prison is a hub of mental health challenges and so should be scrutinised
Interlocking trend #4: in a society (at times) concerned with equality, prison highlights the discrimination faced by Maori in New Zealand – and so should be rethought
Interlocking trend #5: in a world concerned with evidence-based and effective policy interventions, prison is an ineffective intervention – and so should be largely abandoned
Conservatives should recognize that the entire criminal justice system is another government spending program fraught with the issues that plague all government programs. Criminal justice should be subject to the same level of skepticism and scrutiny that we apply to any other government program.
But it’s not just the excessive and unwise spending that offends conservative values. Prisons, for example, are harmful to prisoners and their families. Reform is therefore also an issue of compassion. The current system often turns out prisoners who are more harmful to society than when they went in, so prison and re-entry reform are issues of public safety as well.
On July 11 2013 11:20 a176 wrote: You give them food and a place to sleep. What more do they deserve exactly?
Rehabilitation. If all the correction system does is lock people in a box until they go mad then there is no justice to the system, just revenge.
Not to mention much hope for their next victim once they are released.
July 11 2013 11:25 Orcasgt24 wrote: Ummm, I may be a hard ass but prisons are not meant to be easy vacations. They are meant as punishment. The only reason your in a prison is because you did something that negatively affects society. Be a good prisoner and you won't have to go to solitary.
Understandable, and while I don't agree, I think what is being protested though is that solitary is going beyond the actual terms of the punishment. Just because it's not meant to be a cakewalk, does it necessarily mean that the prison environment should be a place of chaos where we break down the prisoner further?
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
This struck me as quite harsh. Once they are released they are normal citezens. We want to have a society of mentally stable people. Solitary confinement can make a person insane. People who are unstable mentally are more likely to do horrible things such as mass shotings.....and land hemselves back in jail.
I wouldnt be so sure that they will eventually eat. I'm sure that some of them believe they have nothing to lose because they are already in terrible conditions. I dont think most Americans could go 3 days without food. That is something that impresses me about these prisoners.
July 11 2013 11:25 Orcasgt24 wrote: Ummm, I may be a hard ass but prisons are not meant to be easy vacations. They are meant as punishment. The only reason your in a prison is because you did something that negatively affects society. Be a good prisoner and you won't have to go to solitary.
Understandable, and while I don't agree, I think what is being protested though is that solitary is going beyond the actual terms of the punishment. Just because it's not meant to be a cakewalk, does it necessarily mean that the prison environment should be a place of chaos where we break down the prisoner further?
Until someone comes up with a better idea then the super time-out that is solitary, what exactly are prison guards suppose to do to punish a prisoner for disturbing the peace in jail? The bad eggs that are starting fights with other inmates or guards have to be dealt with somehow. Its not perfect I agree but leaving them in general population is not acceptable IMO
On July 11 2013 11:25 Orcasgt24 wrote: Ummm, I may be a hard ass but prisons are not meant to be easy vacations. They are meant as punishment. The only reason your in a prison is because you did something that negatively affects society. Be a good prisoner and you won't have to go to solitary.
I see no problem at all with that system. If they don't want to eat, whatever. Hopefully the corrections officials don't cave and and another 1 star to each prisons hotel rating
Thank god that no one ever goes to prison unjustly, and while there, that they are never treated unfairly by the prison officials who are never bad people (although I think they have a tough job).
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
You don't get to deprave people of basic human rights and have things done to you that can very easily be perceived as torture because you stole a car or sold some weed on a street corner or held up a liquor store.
On July 11 2013 11:20 a176 wrote: You give them food and a place to sleep. What more do they deserve exactly?
Rehabilitation. If all the correction system does is lock people in a box until they go mad then there is no justice, just revenge.
whats wrong with revenge? If someone killed my friend I wouldn't wanna "rehab" him, I'd want to make his life very shitty
Well that's a moral judgement and you're welcome to hold it. But what if instead of your friend being the one killed they are the one falsely accused of the murder and end up in jail in terrible conditions? Wouldn't it be terrible if they're the one who is tormented in the name of revenge when they did nothing wrong. Which is why the death penalty is stupid. You can't later appeal if new evidence comes to light and be set free when you've been executed.
July 11 2013 11:25 Orcasgt24 wrote: Ummm, I may be a hard ass but prisons are not meant to be easy vacations. They are meant as punishment. The only reason your in a prison is because you did something that negatively affects society. Be a good prisoner and you won't have to go to solitary.
Understandable, and while I don't agree, I think what is being protested though is that solitary is going beyond the actual terms of the punishment. Just because it's not meant to be a cakewalk, does it necessarily mean that the prison environment should be a place of chaos where we break down the prisoner further?
Until someone comes up with a better idea then the super time-out that is solitary, what exactly are prison guards suppose to do to punish a prisoner for disturbing the peace in jail? The bad eggs that are starting fights with other inmates or guards have to be dealt with somehow. Its not perfect I agree but leaving them in general population is not acceptable IMO
Well, from my understanding, they're unduly using solitary. It's a slippery slope. If you can punish the max. security guys, then we can threaten even the most minor guy with solitary. Then after spending a week in the whole, this suddenly low-level and low-threat guy is suddenly disturbed and he gets caught in a cycle.
A lot of this is conjecture and speculation on my part from the little I've read in these articles (and from my experiences in Prison Architect! :D ).
I agree, though. For the safety of everyone, majorly violent guys need to be separated somehow, but I can't help that it's actually contributing to the very problem they're trying to avoid. Also, just because it's the best thing we've got going so far, doesn't mean people who actually come up with prison policy can't stretch their noggins a bit.
As Plexa's article above points out, we've outgrown such punitive measures of hitting children in classrooms. It's a leap of logic on our parts and a sweeping away of some deeply ingrain assumptions on our part on prisoner treatment, but there just might be a better way.
Then again, I'm an idealist and a progressive, so what do I know...
8th amendment: Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
Also Plexa, interesting that 50% of the prison population are these aborigines who make up way less than half of the general population, what I imagine are a parallel to U.S. blacks and latinos?
On July 11 2013 11:20 a176 wrote: You give them food and a place to sleep. What more do they deserve exactly?
Rehabilitation. If all the correction system does is lock people in a box until they go mad then there is no justice, just revenge.
whats wrong with revenge? If someone killed my friend I wouldn't wanna "rehab" him, I'd want to make his life very shitty
It's fucking stupid, that's what's wrong with it.
Currently, the U.S. prison system is WAY overcrowded, which then leads to two things.
1) We are wasting a LOT of money. Prison is a massive sinkhole for taxpayer dollars to go into.
2) Because of overcrowding, prison culture, and the horrible conditions/programs in prisons, people that go into prison are significantly more likely to come out as worse criminals than before, and therefore either repeat their past crimes or commit worse ones.
So yea, retribution may sound great and all, but it's actually really, really counterproductive. There really aren't any long-term positives about our prison system. For the duration of keeping the dangerous away from society, we're wasting a ton of money, and when they finally get out, they are even more dangerous to society.
On July 11 2013 11:20 a176 wrote: You give them food and a place to sleep. What more do they deserve exactly?
Rehabilitation. If all the correction system does is lock people in a box until they go mad then there is no justice, just revenge.
whats wrong with revenge? If someone killed my friend I wouldn't wanna "rehab" him, I'd want to make his life very shitty
It's fucking stupid, that's what's wrong with it.
Currently, the U.S. prison system is WAY overcrowded, which then leads to two things.
1) We are wasting a LOT of money. Prison is a massive sinkhole for taxpayer dollars to go into.
2) Because of overcrowding, prison culture, and the horrible conditions/programs in prisons, people that go into prison are significantly more likely to come out as worse criminals than before, and therefore either repeat their past crimes or commit worse ones.
So yea, retribution may sound great and all, but it's actually really, really counterproductive. There really aren't any long-term positives about our prison system. For the duration of keeping the dangerous away from society, we're wasting a ton of money, and when they finally get out, they are even more dangerous to society.
Yes. Fairly short-sighted to think that we can just do what we want with people who have been incarcerated because they "deserve" it, and that it won't have repercussions for those of us on the other side of the cell. It's not that easy.
On July 11 2013 11:20 a176 wrote: You give them food and a place to sleep. What more do they deserve exactly?
Rehabilitation. If all the correction system does is lock people in a box until they go mad then there is no justice, just revenge.
whats wrong with revenge? If someone killed my friend I wouldn't wanna "rehab" him, I'd want to make his life very shitty
This is why we have revenge integrated into the system even if it is not a rational problem solving tool. When it comes down to it though, while some emotional pandering is necessary to keep order the greater goal is to reduce crime as much as possible. Recidivism is incredibly high and a huge number of criminals who go into prison as non-violent offenders come out as something much worse.
What justice means to me is doing everything possible to make right what can be made right, getting as close as possible when corrections are impossible and addressing the issues which led to the infraction in the first place. Prison should only be used in the most extreme cases where whole life solutions are necessary and then lifetime imprisonment should only be considered when psychiatric/educational reformation seems impossible.
The logistics of such an operation are daunting, especially given the considerable corrections which are made necessary by the brutality of our current system, but you have to start somewhere.
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
No. Because sometimes they got arrested for things like.. tax evasion, weed possession, or something minor and to be treated like that is unnecessary. Sure for the most crazy murderers these punishment MIGHT make sense but these prisoners still should deserve to be treated like human beings.
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
No. Because sometimes they got arrested for things like.. tax evasion, weed possession, or something minor and to be treated like that is unnecessary. Sure for the most crazy murderers these punishment MIGHT make sense but these prisoners still should deserve to be treated like human beings.
Those are the kinds of prisoners who are not likely to be put in solitary. Most of those kinds of criminals will get out early due to good behavior.
One thing that alot of people fail to realize is prison guards have nothing to threaten prisoners with except solitary. The punishment for crime is jail. That threat doesn't work on prisoners, they are already in jail. The only way they can keep order is by being quick with putting misbehaving inmates in solitary. They have to be able to do something.
I realize its a cruel punishment but nobody has created a better idea. Its why Canada has min, medium and Max security prisons. They toss the tax evasion/weed possession/Unpaid parking ticket guys in the min and the murders, drug dealers and rapists in max.
The purpose of prisons is to punish and rehabilitate, not damage and destroy like some sort of feudal barbarian society. I'd think the main motivation behind this, knowing the last effects solitary confinement can have, is to keep more people in prison for cheap labour. Many prisons are run for profit, and because of this, there is a great deal of corruption that goes on between the courts and the police, generating kickbacks for anyone who helps more people go behind bars. Risking someone's sanity by locking them to solitary seems like another way to ensure the slave labour machine keeps running.
I have no doubt that solitary confinement/individual cells have a place for individuals who are already so deranged and dangerous that they can't be allowed to stay with the general prison population, though the death penalty (assuming properly applied) is another solution to that problem. Still, having relatives who have been through prison, I know for a fact that prison guards can be pretty awful sometimes and will get you locked in solitary for a time just because they have a beef with you or because someone else is out to get you and sets you up for something that gets punished with solitary.
Again, I'd like to stress the ideal situation is rehabilitation and release, and yet we live in a society that tries to keep people in prison to make money rather than try to fix and release them. I just don't see how solitary confinement helps accomplish the former rather than the latter, given the medical evidence.
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
No. Because sometimes they got arrested for things like.. tax evasion, weed possession, or something minor and to be treated like that is unnecessary. Sure for the most crazy murderers these punishment MIGHT make sense but these prisoners still should deserve to be treated like human beings.
Those are the kinds of prisoners who are not likely to be put in solitary. Most of those kinds of criminals will get out early due to good behavior.
The charges that put you in prison have absolutely no relation to your behaviour inside of prison.
In fact, a trademark of many serial killers and the like is extremely personable demeanor.
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
"The average sentence for persons convicted of a marijuana felony in state court in 2000 was 28 months (median = 12 months) for incarceration and 40 months (median = 36 months) for probation".
The figures calculated for this study use the same indicator variables as the Bureau of Justice Statistics study in an effort to permit comparison. The mean and median refer to the http://www.harmreductionjournal.com/content/3/1/6 maximum sentence length in which the offense under discussion is the most serious.
"In 2000, the average sentence for a person convicted of aggravated assault in a state court and sentenced to incarceration (prison or jail) was 37 months (median = 16 months), while the average sentence for persons sentenced to probation for a felony was 40 months (median = 36 months)".
Durose mr, Langan PA: Felony Sentences in State Courts, 2000 Washington, DC: Bureau of Justice Statistics. NCJ 198821; 2003
"The number of incarcerated drug offenders has increased twelvefold since 1980. In 2000, 22 percent of those in federal and state prisons were convicted on drug charges".
I don't think it's at all reasonable to suggest that people sentenced to over two years in prison due to marijuana possession deserve to be tortured. Please, next time, put like 10 seconds of thought into your post, or, if you want to be really exceptional, go and read about the subject for 5 minutes.
On July 11 2013 11:45 wUndertUnge wrote: Just a refresher for me and you guys alike:
8th amendment: Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
Also Plexa, interesting that 50% of the prison population are these aborigines who make up way less than half of the general population, what I imagine are a parallel to U.S. blacks and latinos?
Yeah pretty much. That tends to be a recurring theme unfortunately.
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
No. Because sometimes they got arrested for things like.. tax evasion, weed possession, or something minor and to be treated like that is unnecessary. Sure for the most crazy murderers these punishment MIGHT make sense but these prisoners still should deserve to be treated like human beings.
Those are the kinds of prisoners who are not likely to be put in solitary. Most of those kinds of criminals will get out early due to good behavior.
The charges that put you in prison have absolutely no relation to your behaviour inside of prison.
In fact, a trademark of many serial killers and the like is extremely personable demeanor.
I wouldn't say that is is "no relation". You don't think some person who's always behaving very angrily isn't more likely to fly off the handle and kill someone? Sure, anyone could kill someone else regardless of behavior, but to say there's absolutely no correlation between charges and behavior, at least in the case of murder as in the example I used, is unreasonable.
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
No. Because sometimes they got arrested for things like.. tax evasion, weed possession, or something minor and to be treated like that is unnecessary. Sure for the most crazy murderers these punishment MIGHT make sense but these prisoners still should deserve to be treated like human beings.
Those are the kinds of prisoners who are not likely to be put in solitary. Most of those kinds of criminals will get out early due to good behavior.
The charges that put you in prison have absolutely no relation to your behaviour inside of prison.
In fact, a trademark of many serial killers and the like is extremely personable demeanor.
LOL, tell that to the Korean killer in the large University killing a few years back (somewhere in the US). Whacked as a cornflake. That sounds like a bit of confirmation bias with a helpful serving of dramatic movies that shaped your opinion.
All this talk about weed possession and the like getting way too long of sentences -- relatively speaking, I agree with you. From the evidence the above poster gave. But they absolutely deserve it.
You can talk about the prison system needing to be better and blah blah blah but I honestly can't think that sending a mugger, even, to a friendly rehabilitation center to get a degree and watch TV, or giving him a stern talking-to and a $100 fine are reasonable alternatives. Norway does seem to be doing better but they're very homogeneous, very small, and very rich. It's an interesting talking point but not really comparable to the US.
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
They do deserve rights as human beings though.
What about the rights they took from the people they've killed? The rights they took from the kids they raped. The rights they took from the families who's homes they broke into. Why should they have a right to be in the regular prison population so they can lead their gangs?
I think their guilt and the offenses they've committed justify their placement in solitary. They're more dangerous out of it than in it.
I cant speak out for what is going on but in my opinion, the only thing they can protest is torture or violent abuse ( I dont know if this is going on or not ) by the prison guards. the fact that it is in a prison that makes this whole thing useless and disorganized. people start demanding things left right and centre equalling in no demands being met what so ever, even thou 1 or 2 may have had a real value to them.
The real way to do this would be if everyone here who agreed to the 'demand' the prisoners wanted would protest as well, but unfortunately just like the prisoners you don't, you don't realise this until you are in prison. ie no one really cares.
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
No. Because sometimes they got arrested for things like.. tax evasion, weed possession, or something minor and to be treated like that is unnecessary. Sure for the most crazy murderers these punishment MIGHT make sense but these prisoners still should deserve to be treated like human beings.
Those are the kinds of prisoners who are not likely to be put in solitary. Most of those kinds of criminals will get out early due to good behavior.
The charges that put you in prison have absolutely no relation to your behaviour inside of prison.
In fact, a trademark of many serial killers and the like is extremely personable demeanor.
LOL, tell that to the Korean killer in the large University killing a few years back (somewhere in the US). Whacked as a cornflake. That sounds like a bit of confirmation bias with a helpful serving of dramatic movies that shaped your opinion.
This part of your post literally refutes itself.
All this talk about weed possession and the like getting way too long of sentences -- relatively speaking, I agree with you. From the evidence the above poster gave. But they absolutely deserve it.
Huh?
You can talk about the prison system needing to be better and blah blah blah but I honestly can't think that sending a mugger, even, to a friendly rehabilitation center to get a degree and watch TV, or giving him a stern talking-to and a $100 fine are reasonable alternatives. Norway does seem to be doing better but they're very homogeneous, very small, and very rich. It's an interesting talking point but not really comparable to the US.
Why do you think that trying to rehabilitate a mugger is not a reasonable alternative? Suppose we had a machine that we could put criminals into (but only if they actually committed a crime; the machine doesn't work if there's no evidence!) which automatically rehabilitated them to having a moral compass roughly on par with the average noncriminal. Someone who goes through this machine should not have to serve any prison time, regardless of their sentence, unless there is the risk of the population attacking them.
Agree/Disagree?
What about the rights they took from the people they've killed? The rights they took from the kids they raped. The rights they took from the families who's homes they broke into. Why should they have a right to be in the regular prison population so they can lead their gangs?
What about the rights they took? That was illegal, ergo they were convicted of a crime for their action. Why should they have rights themselves? Um, the same reason as everyone else? I wasn't aware "inalienable" actually meant "inalienable (unless you commit crimes)." Weirdly, that would make those rights alienable. Huh. Funny how that works.
On July 11 2013 11:20 a176 wrote: You give them food and a place to sleep. What more do they deserve exactly?
Rehabilitation. If all the correction system does is lock people in a box until they go mad then there is no justice, just revenge.
You can't rehabilitate a person any more than you can make a horse drink. If these guys wanted help they wouldn't have broken the law, and broken the prison rules that landed them in solitary in the first place. If they want out, they'll comply with the prison programs because solitary confinement is temporary..
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
No. Because sometimes they got arrested for things like.. tax evasion, weed possession, or something minor and to be treated like that is unnecessary. Sure for the most crazy murderers these punishment MIGHT make sense but these prisoners still should deserve to be treated like human beings.
Those are the kinds of prisoners who are not likely to be put in solitary. Most of those kinds of criminals will get out early due to good behavior.
The charges that put you in prison have absolutely no relation to your behaviour inside of prison.
In fact, a trademark of many serial killers and the like is extremely personable demeanor.
I wouldn't say that is is "no relation". You don't think some person who's always behaving very angrily isn't more likely to fly off the handle and kill someone? Sure, anyone could kill someone else regardless of behavior, but to say there's absolutely no correlation between charges and behavior, at least in the case of murder as in the example I used, is unreasonable.
I'd say someone always behaving angrily is much more likely to be put in prison for aggravated assault, and assault causing bodily harm, "something minor" as you would say.
I'd say a druggy who has been suddenly cut off his narcotics is much more likely to act irrationally and be uncooperative.
Someone who commits preplanned murder would probably be less impulsive than the above. Someone who committed manslaughter could likely never had any criminal intent, and killed purely by accident.
Some criminals might have tendencies towards more belligerent behaviour, but the likelihood of solitary confinement would not even remotely correlate to the severity of their crime.
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
They do deserve rights as human beings though.
What about the rights they took from the people they've killed? The rights they took from the kids they raped. The rights they took from the families who's homes they broke into. Why should they have a right to be in the regular prison population so they can lead their gangs?
I think their guilt and the offenses they've committed justify their placement in solitary. They're more dangerous out of it than in it.
What about the rights they took from the pot they smoked? WHAT OF THE HEMP
Seriously, there's this fucktarded delusion that everyone (or the majority) of people in U.S. prisons are baby raping homicidal maniacs. Considering we have more prisoners per capita, and more prisoners total than any other country in the world, one would posit that if that assumption were true, we wouldn't need a standing army as we could just release our prisoners against our enemies in times of war.
On July 11 2013 10:47 Blargh wrote: And I thought prison conditions were pretty good. Shit...
Honest post: I think solitary confinement is probably pretty counter-productive, assuming the people aren't in jail for life. How many sane people actually come out of that?
It just seems weird that so many people would be protesting solitary confinement. Surely only a few people actually get that kind of "punishment". At least that shows that people in jail have some sympathy. They can't be that bad, heh.
@superstartran Well, what is classified as a human right? They -ARE- given food, water, and technically shelter... Being able to see others? Not sure if that qualifies as a right, heh. Though, I don't necessarily agree with it.
State prisons in the US are known for being shitty it varies drastically from state to state california for a long time has had a problem with conditions due to overcrowding, Federal prisons are starkly different though they are the prisons you think of.
Can you please elaborate on what you mean by ''shitty''?
On July 11 2013 11:20 a176 wrote: You give them food and a place to sleep. What more do they deserve exactly?
Rehabilitation. If all the correction system does is lock people in a box until they go mad then there is no justice, just revenge.
whats wrong with revenge? If someone killed my friend I wouldn't wanna "rehab" him, I'd want to make his life very shitty
So he could be even more of a crazy person and kill someone else when he comes out? Or that he could stay in jail for the lengthiest period of time possible and cost a ton of the taxpayer money, instead of getting out earlier and actually help the society?
Yeah, great mentality. Torturing people is fun, even funnier when they "deserves" it by your own standard, right? I'm seriously wondering who really deserves to be in a prison : someone like you that doesn't give a shit about obviously disgusting and atrocious things like that simply because : "hey, they are in prison, they deserves to live hell!" or someone who made a terrible mistake by impulsion once and actually feel really guilty about it : which is most of the people in prisons.
And you realise most people are not in jail for murder?
On July 11 2013 10:47 Blargh wrote: And I thought prison conditions were pretty good. Shit...
Honest post: I think solitary confinement is probably pretty counter-productive, assuming the people aren't in jail for life. How many sane people actually come out of that?
It just seems weird that so many people would be protesting solitary confinement. Surely only a few people actually get that kind of "punishment". At least that shows that people in jail have some sympathy. They can't be that bad, heh.
@superstartran Well, what is classified as a human right? They -ARE- given food, water, and technically shelter... Being able to see others? Not sure if that qualifies as a right, heh. Though, I don't necessarily agree with it.
State prisons in the US are known for being shitty it varies drastically from state to state california for a long time has had a problem with conditions due to overcrowding, Federal prisons are starkly different though they are the prisons you think of.
Can you please elaborate on what you mean by ''shitty''?
This is what a shitty prison looks like here:
Yea seems to be working, and what you can't fit in there you can always fix with a little social cleansing.
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
No. Because sometimes they got arrested for things like.. tax evasion, weed possession, or something minor and to be treated like that is unnecessary. Sure for the most crazy murderers these punishment MIGHT make sense but these prisoners still should deserve to be treated like human beings.
Those are the kinds of prisoners who are not likely to be put in solitary. Most of those kinds of criminals will get out early due to good behavior.
The charges that put you in prison have absolutely no relation to your behaviour inside of prison.
In fact, a trademark of many serial killers and the like is extremely personable demeanor.
You can talk about the prison system needing to be better and blah blah blah but I honestly can't think that sending a mugger, even, to a friendly rehabilitation center to get a degree and watch TV, or giving him a stern talking-to and a $100 fine are reasonable alternatives. Norway does seem to be doing better but they're very homogeneous, very small, and very rich. It's an interesting talking point but not really comparable to the US.
It's actually a lot cheaper for you to rehabilitate that mugger and finance his degree than essentially pushing him deeper into criminality and probably having him spend most of his life in prison for more serious crimes. Aside from that it helps society 'cause that dude is far less likely to commit further crimes, he will be part of the workforce and his children are more likely to not be criminal. Of course this does not magically solve all problems, but it seems to work pretty good where employed.
Probably won't happen though, because some genius got the completely insane idea to privatize the prison system
In a nation that has the highest incarceration rate in the recorded history of mankind it's astounding to read just how ignorant some people are around here about the reality of the situation. Despite the fact that many people seem to write off all offenders as sub-human dirt bags who deserve the worst treatment we can muster (that aspect of American pound-me-in-the-ass culture is a whole other topic), one wonders if the increasingly barbaric and cruel abuse of inmates is really the best course of action for the nation.
But hey, most of us here on TL are white, so we don't have that much to worry about (yet). So let's all go be responsible contributors to society, unlike all those rats who are locked up, and do something constructive with our time... like investing!
Private prisons are among the most egregious examples of the insidiousness of the corporate takeover of the American government.
Raising solitary confinement to the level of torture totally debases the word torture to the point where it has little, if any, meaning. It has been widely overused unfortunately. Solitary should be for only prisoners who are actually violent towards guards and other inmates, or prisoners whose crimes show them to be inherently too dangerous to be mixed with others. And quite frankly, there are people who deserve to be locked away, other contact with others, regardless of the negative effects on them.
The main cause for the drop in crime in the US in the last 20 years has been the jailing of criminals for longer periods of time, since the majority of crimes are committed by repeat offenders, a good thing, and because of the drug war, a bad thing. If we took the drug issue out of the criminal justice system's jurisdiction and made it entirely a public health issue (as it should be), you'd see the prison population drop by a few hundred thousand, not an insignificant amount.
Interlocking trend #1: in a world increasingly moving away from crude old-fashioned discipline, prison is a disciplinarian institution – and should be seen as old-fashioned, too
Interlocking trend #2: in a world growing to acknowledge the importance of social ties, prison is an isolating institution – and so should seem out of place
Interlocking trend #3: in a society becoming increasingly aware of mental health challenges, prison is a hub of mental health challenges and so should be scrutinised
Interlocking trend #4: in a society (at times) concerned with equality, prison highlights the discrimination faced by Maori in New Zealand – and so should be rethought
Interlocking trend #5: in a world concerned with evidence-based and effective policy interventions, prison is an ineffective intervention – and so should be largely abandoned
#1: prison is not crude or old-fashioned, this point is an argument by semantics. Call prison disciplinarian (duh) and say that disciplinarianism is crude and old-fashioned and maybe if you do it enough people will believe you. Disciplinarianism, crude and old-fashioned? More like the lack of disciplinarianism has caused crude outcomes in society. "Old-fashioned" a pejorative? Please.
#2: That's the point of prison. Isolating people who commit crimes from the civilian population until is time to let them out again. I see zero problem with prison isolating the social ties of prisoners. These arguments seem to be fuzzy touchy-feely if we are just nicer to people they will improve their behavior. This is dubious at best when dealing with recidivists. I doubt the author has had much contact with people whose main occupation is committing crimes.
#3: Prisons becoming a dumping zone for the mentally ill has been a major public policy mistake and should be scrutinized and the practice reversed. The mentally ill who commit crimes should be in mental institutions.
#4: Racial minorities are disproportionately represented in prison populations in white-majority countries for a simple reason: they commit a disproportionately large amount of crimes. "Rethinking" prisons will not cause this situation to change so why prisons should be the focus of it is a mystery. It is simplistic and anti-reality thinking to say that the prison population should be a mirror of the demographics of society. I doubt if whites were overrepresented in prison populations that many people would have a problem with it at all. If you want "equality" (what?) in prison population, deal with the issues of why minorities commit a disproportionate amount of crimes. Living in an environment where many or most of the people have been to jail is one of those reasons, but economic and internal culture factors are much more important.
#5: This makes zero sense. More criminals in prison for longer periods of time = lower crime rate. That isn't an opinion, it's a fact.
The evidence shows that prison as an institution focused more on rehabilitation rather than punishment is what is effective. The author has made the mistake of conflating prison with vindictive treatment.
Reducing the prison population would allow for more division of inmates, so hardcore career criminals do not mix with first-time offenders or those who have a chance to turn their lives around. It would also allow for treatment of prisoners to be improved so there is less chance of an anti-social mindset developing among inmates, a prime cause for returning to crime when released.
Prison is a necessary part of society, but the point of it should not be to debase prisoners by treating them like animals and expecting them to act like animals, which of course causes them to act like animals. Every time I see a snippet of a show like Beyond Scared Straight or one of those "Life Inside" style documentaries, I'm amazed at the way the guards allow and/or actually encourage prisoners to act and the way the guards treat the prisoners themselves. Nothing seems more likely to me to encourage recidivism upon release than the practice of indiscriminately mixing prisoners together, treating them with hostility and contempt, and allowing them to form gangs and generally act like it's Lord of the Flies as long as (too much) violence isn't used.
But sorry, if people commit crimes, I want them locked away until it's time to let them out. Saying prisons need to be done away with is naive to the point of folly.
In a nation that has the highest incarceration rate in the recorded history of mankind it's astounding to read just how ignorant some people are around here about the reality of the situation. Despite the fact that many people seem to write off all offenders as sub-human dirt bags who deserve the worst treatment we can muster (that aspect of American pound-me-in-the-ass culture is a whole other topic), one wonders if the increasingly barbaric and cruel abuse of inmates is really the best course of action for the nation.
But hey, most of us here on TL are white, so we don't have that much to worry about (yet). So let's all go be responsible contributors to society, unlike all those rats who are locked up, and do something constructive with our time... like investing!
Prisons are among the most egregious examples of the insidiousness of the corporate takeover of the American government.
It's sad how 90% of your post is right but it's 100% wrong because you're just being an asshole about it.
On July 11 2013 11:20 a176 wrote: You give them food and a place to sleep. What more do they deserve exactly?
Rehabilitation. If all the correction system does is lock people in a box until they go mad then there is no justice, just revenge.
You can't rehabilitate a person any more than you can make a horse drink. If these guys wanted help they wouldn't have broken the law, and broken the prison rules that landed them in solitary in the first place. If they want out, they'll comply with the prison programs because solitary confinement is temporary..
This is completely untrue and a huge cop out. It is a VERY small percentage of prisoners who are both mentally fit and completely unable to be rehabilitated. It is all well and good to talk about "temporary" from the outside, but prisoners in general population are under incredible stress and administrative segregation multiplies that by a hundred.
Imprisonment is just short of torture by all accounts. The only difference between perspectives is which you value higher, a victim's revenge or the health of our society. Both are important but you have to draw a line.
Um, guys... this discussion seems to have devolved into comparisons of crimes rather quickly. Even a murderer is a human and deserves protection of his human rights (also lots of confusion about human and civil rights here). Just a reminder, every member of the UN (USA are a member) signed the UN Charter which includes abiding by this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights
Article 5. No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
I hope nobody disagrees that solitary confinement is degrading, cruel torture.
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
They do deserve rights as human beings though.
What about the rights they took from the people they've killed? The rights they took from the kids they raped. The rights they took from the families who's homes they broke into. Why should they have a right to be in the regular prison population so they can lead their gangs?
I think their guilt and the offenses they've committed justify their placement in solitary. They're more dangerous out of it than in it.
More than 50% of criminals incarcerated did not commit a violent crime.
Even if someone did commit murder, rape, or broke into a home does not give you the right to torture them.
On July 11 2013 13:01 DeepElemBlues wrote: Solitary confinement isn't torture though so repeated admonitions that no matter what people do it isn't okay to torture them are non-sequitirs.
On July 11 2013 13:01 DeepElemBlues wrote: Solitary confinement isn't torture though so repeated admonitions that no matter what people do it isn't okay to torture them are non-sequitirs.
Torture the infliction of physical, mental, or emotional pain for the purpose of punishment or coercion.
Sure sounds like inflicting great mental and emotional pain for the purpose of punishment or coercion. Punishment for whatever they did, coercion to make them never want to do it again.
Solitary is kind of a weird issue. Sometimes they are pulled from population for being a threat to themselves or others or because they are going to be ganked. Yes, it's used as a punishment, but there are cases where it's needed for the safety of an individual or the population at large. Having no contact with anything for months on end drives a person mad though. I'm sure there are ways to mitigate this, but imagine someone who is exceptionally delusional, violent and reactive. How do you handle that person? You can't put them in regular population, they are a threat to guards and inmates alike. You can't put them in with anyone else (in this example) because they are bat shit crazy and flip out in whatever way they can. So what do you do??
I do think that there needs to be alternative punishments to solitary; however, what can you take away from someone who basically has nothing? There needs to be a punishment heavy enough that someone doesn't want to do it...and many of the people who end up there time and again have life sentences and don't care if another 10 years is added on because they won't get out regardless. How can you deter someone in this situation from crafting a shank and going to town on a guard?
I'm just glad I'm not the one who has to make these decisions.
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
There's a huge group of philosophers studying ethics and morality that are basically saying that we all live with a big belief and assumption that A) we all have Free Will, and B) we all have Ultimate Moral Responsibility. What they're arguing is that that long held belief, while necessary to function, is actual a big fallacy. We've totally stopped taking into account the idea of nurturance, not only by parents, but by reality and society as a whole.
In any case, I think your statement assumes that, and I have to disagree myself, not only because of what I've laid out, but also because I believe that every person, no matter the crime, deserves some rights and a shred of basic humanity, even if it's just to try to understand them.
Positions like yours (with all due respect) wants to just write off whole swaths of people, separate them from us, as if we could do that. I understand that position and where it might come from, but fundamentallly, I think it's wrong.
I couldn't agree more with this post. We are to a large extent a product of our environment and genetics. The idea that good people can be easily separated from bad people is very questionable, especially in prisons where ethnic minorities, poor people, and mentally ill people are over represented.
Well, I do think we have to address abberant and delinquent behavior. I think they need to be separated from society while they're dangerous. But what you said about minorities and those on the low part of the economic scale being in prison seems systemic to me and circular.
Not to mention the fact that minorities are often targeted unjustly by the police. Just the other day, I was in a part of Brooklyn that I used to live in and they were stopping every black person and checking their ID, which is profiling. More than 80% of pot arrests for small amounts (which is decriminilized by the way on the state level) are latino or black. There are corruption allegations against at least two precincts for trying to boost numbers illegally by doing illegal arrests.
So not everyone in jail deserves to be there. But I don't know what the answer is. Just because we don't have overarching ultimate responsibility, it doesn't mean that we don't have responsibility or choices, small 'r' and 'c'. Our choices though are limited by a bevy of influences throughout our lifetime that we just can't control: our place in time, space, famillies, countries, etc.
It's all dialogues with philosophers, biologists, neurologists, and lots more. It kind of solidified a lot of my own moral and ethical values and ideas...well, more opened them up (I hope). The Philip Zimbardo interview is worth it alone for the entire book. Great read.
I think prisons have a role in society, I'm not arguing they're worthless. Let me quote myself from this thread:
I thought the point of prison was to provide disincentives for crime, rehabilitate people so they can be brought back into society, and/or prevent people from committing further crimes, not subject people to inhumane conditions that worsen their mental state.
On July 11 2013 11:20 a176 wrote: You give them food and a place to sleep. What more do they deserve exactly?
You don't give them anything, you take away stuff, namely their freedom. Robbing human beings of their freedom is an extremely severe sanction and needs to be done with caution. Not by adding torture on top of it.
Jail is torture. It would be horrific to jail anyone ever if there weren't a pressing need.
Seems the internet should mitigate jail's problem with isolating people from society. You can let inmates connect outside without worrying that they'll go out committing violence or what have you.
In a nation that has the highest incarceration rate in the recorded history of mankind it's astounding to read just how ignorant some people are around here about the reality of the situation. Despite the fact that many people seem to write off all offenders as sub-human dirt bags who deserve the worst treatment we can muster (that aspect of American pound-me-in-the-ass culture is a whole other topic), one wonders if the increasingly barbaric and cruel abuse of inmates is really the best course of action for the nation.
But hey, most of us here on TL are white, so we don't have that much to worry about (yet). So let's all go be responsible contributors to society, unlike all those rats who are locked up, and do something constructive with our time... like investing!
Prisons are among the most egregious examples of the insidiousness of the corporate takeover of the American government.
It's sad how 90% of your post is right but it's 100% wrong because you're just being an asshole about it.
You don't need to call people assholes to express your disagreement. A lot of your points can be made without you resorting to telling people they are naive or their positions are ridiculous.
As a norwegian, the way US practice their prison system is so foreign to me that it is almost as real as a fiction movie.
I mean, you go to jail to rehabillitate, not just because society wants revenge. If not, you end up with a lot of money wasted on prison and a lot of crimes when they get out.
I agree with the solitary confinement part, but the ones protesting for better prison conditions?... Come on, you've got to be kidding. I mean the article didn't really elaborate on specifics, but I just imagine a bunch of self-entitled criminals demanding to get their 360 upgraded to an x-box one. (Yes, there are some prisons that actually have gaming systems for the inmates.) You're in prison for a reason, and you don't deserve to be treated like royalty. You get your 4 meals, and the basic necessities, and that should be it.
There needs to be solitary confinement, or at least an alternative that acts as a deterrent for crime within prisons. People don't commit crimes in society because it's against the law, and breaking it causes you to go to jail and lose a large amount of your rights and freedoms. But when you're already in jail, what's to stop you from just doing whatever you like? Giving someone a longer sentence just causes more money to be taken away from health and education services and given to a prison system that already eats through millions.
Rehabilitation should definitely be the focus of any prison system, but without some sort of deterrence there's no real motivation for people to do so. Bettering prison conditions only factors more into this. If people's lives are at risk then of course things should be changed, but things like hats during cold weather are a luxury, not a necessity.
I hope nobody disagrees that solitary confinement is degrading, cruel torture.
It's not. Saying it is is ridiculous.
lol, you don't know shit...
Plus, prisoners get thrown into solitaries for NOTHING. For example: they throw a prisoner into a solitary to free a bed for another transitioning prisoner for a few days, because there's no space to put them anywhere else.
I hope nobody disagrees that solitary confinement is degrading, cruel torture.
It's not. Saying it is is ridiculous.
lol, you don't know shit...
Plus, prisoners get thrown into solitaries for NOTHING. For example: they throw a prisoner into a solitary to free a bed for another transitioning prisoner for a few days, because there's no space to put them anywhere else.
There are people that deserve to be in jail for the rest of their lives but no one deserves solitary. I don't think people appreciate how essential it is for humans to have any form of contact or stimulus from the outside world to simply survive.
Interlocking trend #1: in a world increasingly moving away from crude old-fashioned discipline, prison is a disciplinarian institution – and should be seen as old-fashioned, too
Interlocking trend #2: in a world growing to acknowledge the importance of social ties, prison is an isolating institution – and so should seem out of place
Interlocking trend #3: in a society becoming increasingly aware of mental health challenges, prison is a hub of mental health challenges and so should be scrutinised
Interlocking trend #4: in a society (at times) concerned with equality, prison highlights the discrimination faced by Maori in New Zealand – and so should be rethought
Interlocking trend #5: in a world concerned with evidence-based and effective policy interventions, prison is an ineffective intervention – and so should be largely abandoned
#1: prison is not crude or old-fashioned, this point is an argument by semantics. Call prison disciplinarian (duh) and say that disciplinarianism is crude and old-fashioned and maybe if you do it enough people will believe you. Disciplinarianism, crude and old-fashioned? More like the lack of disciplinarianism has caused crude outcomes in society. "Old-fashioned" a pejorative? Please.
Well we as a society are tending to move away from corporal punishment as a whole. Think of discipline in schools now vs 100 years ago and other related trends in society. While this alone isn't enough to say that we should abandon the prison system in it's current inception, it is a sign that it's increasingly inconsistent with the values we hold in other areas of society. That's an important sign that perhaps it's time for change.
#2: That's the point of prison. Isolating people who commit crimes from the civilian population until is time to let them out again. I see zero problem with prison isolating the social ties of prisoners. These arguments seem to be fuzzy touchy-feely if we are just nicer to people they will improve their behavior. This is dubious at best when dealing with recidivists. I doubt the author has had much contact with people whose main occupation is committing crimes.
But by isolating them you reinforce the 'us vs them' mentality that happens in prisons. Them having this idea that society doesn't want them and that they will never fit into society doesn't do us any good at reforming prisoners. That just increases the likelihood that they re-offend when they come out. I apologise for the NZ example here, but I imagine the situation is far more dire in the US. But here's a quote from a forum held by ex-inmates on their experience in prison:
We have a place where might is right and there is an us-versus-them culture. “It’s kind of like a war in there,” said one of the three panellists, “you have to become someone else, you have to wear a mask of toughness.”
Our prison system caters to the lowest common dominator – the few percent that the panellists agreed do actually need to be in jail – while the vast majority of those serving sentences in prison are poorly served. Our inmates get fit, learn heaps of criminal skills, build great criminal networks, and are, overall, taught more anti-social behaviours while being pushed even further away from society.
“Good things don’t grow in nasty places” we were told. Our current prison system, far from discouraging and stopping criminality, helps start and enhance criminal careers.
#3: Prisons becoming a dumping zone for the mentally ill has been a major public policy mistake and should be scrutinized and the practice reversed. The mentally ill who commit crimes should be in mental institutions.
The question in this case is can anyone really be sane of mind and willfully kill people? I would argue that the cast majority of prisoners have some kind of mental health issue, not necessarily an illness but some kind of issue. By placing these people in prison you just exacerbate those kinds of problems.
#4: Racial minorities are disproportionately represented in prison populations in white-majority countries for a simple reason: they commit a disproportionately large amount of crimes. "Rethinking" prisons will not cause this situation to change so why prisons should be the focus of it is a mystery. It is simplistic and anti-reality thinking to say that the prison population should be a mirror of the demographics of society. I doubt if whites were overrepresented in prison populations that many people would have a problem with it at all. If you want "equality" (what?) in prison population, deal with the issues of why minorities commit a disproportionate amount of crimes. Living in an environment where many or most of the people have been to jail is one of those reasons, but economic and internal culture factors are much more important.
I agree with most of what you have said here. The root causes of these issues do need to be dealt with. But I would argue that the fact that there is an existing high proportion of minorities in prison in fact is a self-repeating negative cycle which influences their community and increases the likelihood of people in their community from entering the prison system. This is all tied up in the likelihood of reoffending which leads me to...
#5: This makes zero sense. More criminals in prison for longer periods of time = lower crime rate. That isn't an opinion, it's a fact.
The evidence shows that prison as an institution focused more on rehabilitation rather than punishment is what is effective. The author has made the mistake of conflating prison with vindictive treatment.
Reducing the prison population would allow for more division of inmates, so hardcore career criminals do not mix with first-time offenders or those who have a chance to turn their lives around. It would also allow for treatment of prisoners to be improved so there is less chance of an anti-social mindset developing among inmates, a prime cause for returning to crime when released.
Prison is a necessary part of society, but the point of it should not be to debase prisoners by treating them like animals and expecting them to act like animals, which of course causes them to act like animals. Every time I see a snippet of a show like Beyond Scared Straight or one of those "Life Inside" style documentaries, I'm amazed at the way the guards allow and/or actually encourage prisoners to act and the way the guards treat the prisoners themselves. Nothing seems more likely to me to encourage recidivism upon release than the practice of indiscriminately mixing prisoners together, treating them with hostility and contempt, and allowing them to form gangs and generally act like it's Lord of the Flies as long as (too much) violence isn't used.
But sorry, if people commit crimes, I want them locked away until it's time to let them out. Saying prisons need to be done away with is naive to the point of folly.
The evidence (your emphasis) supports the claim that rehabilitative sentencing decreases the rate of re-offending and lowers the overall crime rate, when compared against a traditional retribution focus prison. Just so we're clear, I'm not arguing that 'prison' isn't necessary in society -- rather that prison in it's current inception is bad for society and that a rehabilitative focused model would be far more efficient at treating the causes of crime leading to lower crime rates. You want evidence, sure.
Point being. Rehabilitation works. Once society gets over it's need to punish people and realises that a greater common good is achieved by focusing on rehabilitative sentencing then we'll be living in a much better world.
On July 11 2013 11:20 a176 wrote: You give them food and a place to sleep. What more do they deserve exactly?
Rehabilitation. If all the correction system does is lock people in a box until they go mad then there is no justice, just revenge.
whats wrong with revenge? If someone killed my friend I wouldn't wanna "rehab" him, I'd want to make his life very shitty
But.. that's something that's avoided through the justice system, for very good reason (exactly what you just posted.) Having a personal connection to the judgments to be made in court makes you invalid. Just like lying under oath, and then saying what really happened: once you show that decisions being made are anything but observations on facts gathered, and rather become based on history or any other noun that I can't think of right now that might sway your opinions, nobody cares. Nobody is really allowed to care.
Anyway, my point is that revenge is a personal thing to have with someone else, and is natural, but it is acknowledged that if you've been hurt by someone, you're not exactly going to be an impartial person regarding what's best for him/her on trial, or for society all-around, for that matter.
Good documentary, its pretty bad how it is in there sometimes, but at the same time they "usually" did something bad.
I feel bad for the people that get fucked by the system, like the LoL kid who made a threat and is now being beat up in jail and had to be moved around 4 jails so far for his safety.
Westside!! I can not believe how many people are defending career criminals here on this forum.You guys do realize that MOST of the people in the California penitenciary system are members of some criminal orgnization such as The bloods,Crips,Arian Brotherhood,Mexiacan Mafia,MS13, 18th street gangmSurenos,Skinheads,Noestra Familia,Latin Kings,Vice Lords,Drug Cartels etc.These are people who either commited dozens of murders and would slice you for a bag of Marijuana.It is litterally impossible to survive in a west coast penitenciarry without being gang affiliated.Thise people ar e not in there for fun.In fact judges in Cali give very light jail sentences for the sole reason of overpopulation of the penitenciarry system.MOST of the poeple in there are cold blooded murders who would kill you and your family for 100$.
And btw regarding solitary confinment i saw many people here lying that you can get to solitary for nothing.Wrong.You go to solitary for things such as contraband,assaulting an officer,assaulting other inmates etc.In other words they ar ein solitary to protect other inmates and guards from being murdered.If you guys want more background of what happens in Cali prisons check out Lockdownraw or the natgeographic documentaries on youtube.
here are some eloquent ones for you:
These people are in solitary cuase they are a threat to the other inmates.You would not want to be in prison for tax evasion and be in a cell with a member of theArian Bortherhood who would kill you for not being th eright skin color.
@plexa your arguments work well with small time criminals.Here we are talking about life long gangbangers who kill and die for their gang,The ones that escape the gang do that due to their own will and after spending decade sin jail.DO not try and confuse a low time criminal with a killer from ms13.
On July 12 2013 00:32 theking1 wrote: Westside!! I can not believe how many people are defending career criminals here on this forum.You guys do realize that MOST of the people in the California penitenciary system are members of some criminal orgnization such as The bloods,Crips,Arian Brotherhood,Mexiacan Mafia,MS13, 18th street gangmSurenos,Skinheads,Noestra Familia,Latin Kings,Vice Lords,Drug Cartels etc.These are people who either commited dozens of murders and would slice you for a bag of Marijuana.It is litterally impossible to survive in a west coast penitenciarry without being gang affiliated.Thise people ar e not in there for fun.In fact judges in Cali give very light jail sentences for the sole reason of overpopulation of the penitenciarry system.MOST of the poeple in there are cold blooded murders who would kill you and your family for 100$.
And btw regarding solitary confinment i saw many people here lying that you can get to solitary for nothing.Wrong.You go to solitary for things such as contraband,assaulting an officer,assaulting other inmates etc.In other words they ar ein solitary to protect other inmates and guards from being murdered.If you guys want more background of what happens in Cali prisons check out Lockdownraw or the natgeographic documentaries on youtube.
These people are in solitary cuase they are a threat to the other inmates.You would not want to be in prison for tax evasion and be in a cell with a member of theArian Bortherhood who would kill you for not being th eright skin color.
@plexa your arguments work well with small time criminals.Here we are talking about life long gangbangers who kill and die for their gang,The ones that escape the gang do that due to their own will and after spending decade sin jail.DO not try and confuse a low time criminal with a killer from ms13.
No, we don't because we don't consider a saturday night drama series to be indicative of prison life.
On July 11 2013 11:20 a176 wrote: You give them food and a place to sleep. What more do they deserve exactly?
Rehabilitation. If all the correction system does is lock people in a box until they go mad then there is no justice, just revenge.
whats wrong with revenge? If someone killed my friend I wouldn't wanna "rehab" him, I'd want to make his life very shitty
so given the option between reforming a murderer into a productive member of society, or letting him be a ward of the state, forever living off your taxes, you would choose the latter.
I can tell you have given a great deal of thought to this matter.
On July 12 2013 00:32 theking1 wrote: Westside!! I can not believe how many people are defending career criminals here on this forum.You guys do realize that MOST of the people in the California penitenciary system are members of some criminal orgnization such as The bloods,Crips,Arian Brotherhood,Mexiacan Mafia,MS13, 18th street gangmSurenos,Skinheads,Noestra Familia,Latin Kings,Vice Lords,Drug Cartels etc.These are people who either commited dozens of murders and would slice you for a bag of Marijuana.It is litterally impossible to survive in a west coast penitenciarry without being gang affiliated.Thise people ar e not in there for fun.In fact judges in Cali give very light jail sentences for the sole reason of overpopulation of the penitenciarry system.MOST of the poeple in there are cold blooded murders who would kill you and your family for 100$.
And btw regarding solitary confinment i saw many people here lying that you can get to solitary for nothing.Wrong.You go to solitary for things such as contraband,assaulting an officer,assaulting other inmates etc.In other words they ar ein solitary to protect other inmates and guards from being murdered.If you guys want more background of what happens in Cali prisons check out Lockdownraw or the natgeographic documentaries on youtube.
These people are in solitary cuase they are a threat to the other inmates.You would not want to be in prison for tax evasion and be in a cell with a member of theArian Bortherhood who would kill you for not being th eright skin color.
@plexa your arguments work well with small time criminals.Here we are talking about life long gangbangers who kill and die for their gang,The ones that escape the gang do that due to their own will and after spending decade sin jail.DO not try and confuse a low time criminal with a killer from ms13.
No, we don't because we don't consider a saturday night drama series to be indicative of prison life.
its a documentary based on FACTS and all rpeorts say the same thing.
On July 12 2013 00:32 theking1 wrote: Westside!! I can not believe how many people are defending career criminals here on this forum.You guys do realize that MOST of the people in the California penitenciary system are members of some criminal orgnization such as The bloods,Crips,Arian Brotherhood,Mexiacan Mafia,MS13, 18th street gangmSurenos,Skinheads,Noestra Familia,Latin Kings,Vice Lords,Drug Cartels etc.These are people who either commited dozens of murders and would slice you for a bag of Marijuana.It is litterally impossible to survive in a west coast penitenciarry without being gang affiliated.Thise people ar e not in there for fun.In fact judges in Cali give very light jail sentences for the sole reason of overpopulation of the penitenciarry system.MOST of the poeple in there are cold blooded murders who would kill you and your family for 100$.
And btw regarding solitary confinment i saw many people here lying that you can get to solitary for nothing.Wrong.You go to solitary for things such as contraband,assaulting an officer,assaulting other inmates etc.In other words they ar ein solitary to protect other inmates and guards from being murdered.If you guys want more background of what happens in Cali prisons check out Lockdownraw or the natgeographic documentaries on youtube.
These people are in solitary cuase they are a threat to the other inmates.You would not want to be in prison for tax evasion and be in a cell with a member of theArian Bortherhood who would kill you for not being th eright skin color.
@plexa your arguments work well with small time criminals.Here we are talking about life long gangbangers who kill and die for their gang,The ones that escape the gang do that due to their own will and after spending decade sin jail.DO not try and confuse a low time criminal with a killer from ms13.
30K is a lot of people. I am going to assume that there are all sorts of criminals in the California prision system. Also, that system is known for being terrible. They were recently ordered by the Supreme Court to either release some inmates or build more prisions. This was after 10 years of litigation involving over crowding due to the state's inability to fund their prisions correctly. They were ordered over and over to comply and stop the overcrowding. California just ignored the orders until the Supreme Court finally had to rule on it and step in.
This is nothing new, California sucks as running prisions. They have for a long time. They refuse to spend money on them or reform their pratices and we will hear more of this in the future until someone deals with the issue.
Man their are a lot of really arrogant post's in this thread about basic human rights, and the American prison system.
There are a lot of prisons systems that vary a lot in the U.S. California has one of the worst prison systems in the U.S. worst for gaurds, and convicts.
Just because someone commited a crime doesn't mean we should strip them of basic human rights, or that they are a evil person, or that they aren't still human.
Prison is suppose to be a rehabilitation center, and many of the people in prison are there for basic drug offenses which is just terribly stupid.
Rather then trying to improve these people's social abilities, lets just remove the sanity that they have by locking them away from any social time. All this does is make things worse.
I always find it funny that conservative people who are "Jesus loving" "christians" tend to be the ones who say "they deserve it" or "rot in hell"
It's ok, you can get tickets for sagging your pants, or spitting on the ground, these people are criminals.....
On July 12 2013 00:58 sva wrote: Man their are a lot of really arrogant post's in this thread about basic human rights, and the American prison system.
There are a lot of prisons systems that vary a lot in the U.S. California has one of the worst prison systems in the U.S. worst for gaurds, and convicts.
Just because someone commited a crime doesn't mean we should strip them of basic human rights, or that they are a evil person, or that they aren't still human.
Prison is suppose to be a rehabilitation center, and many of the people in prison are there for basic drug offenses which is just terribly stupid.
Rather then trying to improve these people's social abilities, lets just remove the sanity that they have by locking them away from any social time. All this does is make things worse.
I always find it funny that conservative people who are "Jesus loving" "christians" tend to be the ones who say "they deserve it" or "rot in hell"
It's ok, you can get tickets for sagging your pants, or spitting on the ground, these people are criminals.....
Oh humanity, I wish you were universal.
In Indiana you can now go to jail for applying for a same sex marriage.
On July 12 2013 00:32 theking1 wrote: Westside!! I can not believe how many people are defending career criminals here on this forum.You guys do realize that MOST of the people in the California penitenciary system are members of some criminal orgnization such as The bloods,Crips,Arian Brotherhood,Mexiacan Mafia,MS13, 18th street gangmSurenos,Skinheads,Noestra Familia,Latin Kings,Vice Lords,Drug Cartels etc.These are people who either commited dozens of murders and would slice you for a bag of Marijuana.It is litterally impossible to survive in a west coast penitenciarry without being gang affiliated.Thise people ar e not in there for fun.In fact judges in Cali give very light jail sentences for the sole reason of overpopulation of the penitenciarry system.MOST of the poeple in there are cold blooded murders who would kill you and your family for 100$.
And btw regarding solitary confinment i saw many people here lying that you can get to solitary for nothing.Wrong.You go to solitary for things such as contraband,assaulting an officer,assaulting other inmates etc.In other words they ar ein solitary to protect other inmates and guards from being murdered.If you guys want more background of what happens in Cali prisons check out Lockdownraw or the natgeographic documentaries on youtube.
These people are in solitary cuase they are a threat to the other inmates.You would not want to be in prison for tax evasion and be in a cell with a member of theArian Bortherhood who would kill you for not being th eright skin color.
@plexa your arguments work well with small time criminals.Here we are talking about life long gangbangers who kill and die for their gang,The ones that escape the gang do that due to their own will and after spending decade sin jail.DO not try and confuse a low time criminal with a killer from ms13.
No, we don't because we don't consider a saturday night drama series to be indicative of prison life.
its a documentary based on FACTS and all rpeorts say the same thing.
No, actually it's not. They focus on the ooooh scary badass gangster type criminals and show all their evil deeds while ignoring the compliant prisoners and the corrupt prison guards. They also don't go into the whole "Yeah we put people in solitary a lot to make room for new prisoners." http://www.corrections.com/news/article/23579-deviance-and-corruption
On July 12 2013 00:32 theking1 wrote: Westside!! I can not believe how many people are defending career criminals here on this forum.You guys do realize that MOST of the people in the California penitenciary system are members of some criminal orgnization such as The bloods,Crips,Arian Brotherhood,Mexiacan Mafia,MS13, 18th street gangmSurenos,Skinheads,Noestra Familia,Latin Kings,Vice Lords,Drug Cartels etc.These are people who either commited dozens of murders and would slice you for a bag of Marijuana.It is litterally impossible to survive in a west coast penitenciarry without being gang affiliated.Thise people ar e not in there for fun.In fact judges in Cali give very light jail sentences for the sole reason of overpopulation of the penitenciarry system.MOST of the poeple in there are cold blooded murders who would kill you and your family for 100$.
And btw regarding solitary confinment i saw many people here lying that you can get to solitary for nothing.Wrong.You go to solitary for things such as contraband,assaulting an officer,assaulting other inmates etc.In other words they ar ein solitary to protect other inmates and guards from being murdered.If you guys want more background of what happens in Cali prisons check out Lockdownraw or the natgeographic documentaries on youtube.
These people are in solitary cuase they are a threat to the other inmates.You would not want to be in prison for tax evasion and be in a cell with a member of theArian Bortherhood who would kill you for not being th eright skin color.
@plexa your arguments work well with small time criminals.Here we are talking about life long gangbangers who kill and die for their gang,The ones that escape the gang do that due to their own will and after spending decade sin jail.DO not try and confuse a low time criminal with a killer from ms13.
30K is a lot of people. I am going to assume that there are all sorts of criminals in the California prision system. Also, that system is known for being terrible. They were recently ordered by the Supreme Court to either release some inmates or build more prisions. This was after 10 years of litigation involving over crowding due to the state's inability to fund their prisions correctly. They were ordered over and over to comply and stop the overcrowding. California just ignored the orders until the Supreme Court finally had to rule on it and step in.
This is nothing new, California sucks as running prisions. They have for a long time. They refuse to spend money on them or reform their pratices and we will hear more of this in the future until someone deals with the issue.
There are lots of cases were these "Carrer crimnals" change their ways, or change their lives. Leave the gang, escape the violent path. The problem is that how is it possible for anyone to do that if the only environment they have is either violence, the current shitty prison system, or solitary confinement. One good example of this is man named Michael Thompson, of the Aryan Brotherhood. He's murdered lots of people, and would basically kill your for anything, but now he is an informant, made friends with a black cellmate. People can change, and better themselves, not everyone, but it can work with a snowball effect.
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
You could have just closed the thread after this post. In few years we will have people condaming prisons too, because that's 'against human rights'. Ahh, the moralism.
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
You could have just closed the thread after this post. In few years we will have people condaming prisons too, because that's 'against human rights'. Ahh, the moralism.
I think you are missing what I see as the core of the discussion. Should a prison punish, rehabilitate, be a mental institution or be a mix of these things?
On July 12 2013 00:32 theking1 wrote: Westside!! I can not believe how many people are defending career criminals here on this forum.You guys do realize that MOST of the people in the California penitenciary system are members of some criminal orgnization such as The bloods,Crips,Arian Brotherhood,Mexiacan Mafia,MS13, 18th street gangmSurenos,Skinheads,Noestra Familia,Latin Kings,Vice Lords,Drug Cartels etc.These are people who either commited dozens of murders and would slice you for a bag of Marijuana.It is litterally impossible to survive in a west coast penitenciarry without being gang affiliated.Thise people ar e not in there for fun.In fact judges in Cali give very light jail sentences for the sole reason of overpopulation of the penitenciarry system.MOST of the poeple in there are cold blooded murders who would kill you and your family for 100$.
And btw regarding solitary confinment i saw many people here lying that you can get to solitary for nothing.Wrong.You go to solitary for things such as contraband,assaulting an officer,assaulting other inmates etc.In other words they ar ein solitary to protect other inmates and guards from being murdered.If you guys want more background of what happens in Cali prisons check out Lockdownraw or the natgeographic documentaries on youtube.
These people are in solitary cuase they are a threat to the other inmates.You would not want to be in prison for tax evasion and be in a cell with a member of theArian Bortherhood who would kill you for not being th eright skin color.
@plexa your arguments work well with small time criminals.Here we are talking about life long gangbangers who kill and die for their gang,The ones that escape the gang do that due to their own will and after spending decade sin jail.DO not try and confuse a low time criminal with a killer from ms13.
30K is a lot of people. I am going to assume that there are all sorts of criminals in the California prision system. Also, that system is known for being terrible. They were recently ordered by the Supreme Court to either release some inmates or build more prisions. This was after 10 years of litigation involving over crowding due to the state's inability to fund their prisions correctly. They were ordered over and over to comply and stop the overcrowding. California just ignored the orders until the Supreme Court finally had to rule on it and step in.
This is nothing new, California sucks as running prisions. They have for a long time. They refuse to spend money on them or reform their pratices and we will hear more of this in the future until someone deals with the issue.
You are right about the conditions but they should have thought about that before commiting heinous crimes The article is about solitary confinement prisoners.You land in solitary confinement if you a)get caught with contraband b)assault a guard or another inmate it is preety unfair for a guy who is in jail for not paying his taxes to be in the same cell with another inmate convicted for life for murder who can basicly murder him rape him at his own will without anything happening to him.That is what solitary confinement is for.To protect the regular criminals form the monsters.If you are in jail for life you can do what you want and not give a damn cause they can not add anything to your sentence.
@sva that guy changed his ways after murdering 2 people while free and god knows how many while in prison.He only stepped up when members of the brotherhood themselves were targeted.Btw you do not get to the leadership of the arian brotherhood by jaiwalking.It is blood in blood out.
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
You could have just closed the thread after this post. In few years we will have people condaming prisons too, because that's 'against human rights'. Ahh, the moralism.
I think you are missing what I see as the core of the discussion. Should a prison punish, rehabilitate, be a mental institution or be a mix of these things?
The post above me explains it. It's about solitary confinement.
On July 12 2013 00:32 theking1 wrote: Westside!! I can not believe how many people are defending career criminals here on this forum.You guys do realize that MOST of the people in the California penitenciary system are members of some criminal orgnization such as The bloods,Crips,Arian Brotherhood,Mexiacan Mafia,MS13, 18th street gangmSurenos,Skinheads,Noestra Familia,Latin Kings,Vice Lords,Drug Cartels etc.These are people who either commited dozens of murders and would slice you for a bag of Marijuana.It is litterally impossible to survive in a west coast penitenciarry without being gang affiliated.Thise people ar e not in there for fun.In fact judges in Cali give very light jail sentences for the sole reason of overpopulation of the penitenciarry system.MOST of the poeple in there are cold blooded murders who would kill you and your family for 100$.
And btw regarding solitary confinment i saw many people here lying that you can get to solitary for nothing.Wrong.You go to solitary for things such as contraband,assaulting an officer,assaulting other inmates etc.In other words they ar ein solitary to protect other inmates and guards from being murdered.If you guys want more background of what happens in Cali prisons check out Lockdownraw or the natgeographic documentaries on youtube.
These people are in solitary cuase they are a threat to the other inmates.You would not want to be in prison for tax evasion and be in a cell with a member of theArian Bortherhood who would kill you for not being th eright skin color.
@plexa your arguments work well with small time criminals.Here we are talking about life long gangbangers who kill and die for their gang,The ones that escape the gang do that due to their own will and after spending decade sin jail.DO not try and confuse a low time criminal with a killer from ms13.
30K is a lot of people. I am going to assume that there are all sorts of criminals in the California prision system. Also, that system is known for being terrible. They were recently ordered by the Supreme Court to either release some inmates or build more prisions. This was after 10 years of litigation involving over crowding due to the state's inability to fund their prisions correctly. They were ordered over and over to comply and stop the overcrowding. California just ignored the orders until the Supreme Court finally had to rule on it and step in.
This is nothing new, California sucks as running prisions. They have for a long time. They refuse to spend money on them or reform their pratices and we will hear more of this in the future until someone deals with the issue.
You are right about the conditions but they should have thought about that before commiting heinous crimes The article is about solitary confinement prisoners.You land in solitary confinement if you a)get caught with contraband b)assault a guard or another inmate it is preety unfair for a guy who is in jail for not paying his taxes to be in the same cell with another inmate convicted for life for murder who can basicly murder him rape him at his own will without anything happening to him.That is what solitary confinement is for.To protect the regular criminals form the monsters.If you are in jail for life you can do what you want and not give a damn cause they can not add anything to your sentence.
@sva that guy changed his ways after murdering 2 people while free and god knows how many while in prison.He only stepped up when members of the brotherhood themselves were targeted.Btw you do not get to the leadership of the arian brotherhood by jaiwalking.It is blood in blood out.
c. another prisoner claims you're in a prison gang d. They run out of space for new people e. You rub an officer the wrong way
On July 12 2013 00:32 theking1 wrote: Westside!! I can not believe how many people are defending career criminals here on this forum.You guys do realize that MOST of the people in the California penitenciary system are members of some criminal orgnization such as The bloods,Crips,Arian Brotherhood,Mexiacan Mafia,MS13, 18th street gangmSurenos,Skinheads,Noestra Familia,Latin Kings,Vice Lords,Drug Cartels etc.These are people who either commited dozens of murders and would slice you for a bag of Marijuana.It is litterally impossible to survive in a west coast penitenciarry without being gang affiliated.Thise people ar e not in there for fun.In fact judges in Cali give very light jail sentences for the sole reason of overpopulation of the penitenciarry system.MOST of the poeple in there are cold blooded murders who would kill you and your family for 100$.
And btw regarding solitary confinment i saw many people here lying that you can get to solitary for nothing.Wrong.You go to solitary for things such as contraband,assaulting an officer,assaulting other inmates etc.In other words they ar ein solitary to protect other inmates and guards from being murdered.If you guys want more background of what happens in Cali prisons check out Lockdownraw or the natgeographic documentaries on youtube.
These people are in solitary cuase they are a threat to the other inmates.You would not want to be in prison for tax evasion and be in a cell with a member of theArian Bortherhood who would kill you for not being th eright skin color.
@plexa your arguments work well with small time criminals.Here we are talking about life long gangbangers who kill and die for their gang,The ones that escape the gang do that due to their own will and after spending decade sin jail.DO not try and confuse a low time criminal with a killer from ms13.
30K is a lot of people. I am going to assume that there are all sorts of criminals in the California prision system. Also, that system is known for being terrible. They were recently ordered by the Supreme Court to either release some inmates or build more prisions. This was after 10 years of litigation involving over crowding due to the state's inability to fund their prisions correctly. They were ordered over and over to comply and stop the overcrowding. California just ignored the orders until the Supreme Court finally had to rule on it and step in.
This is nothing new, California sucks as running prisions. They have for a long time. They refuse to spend money on them or reform their pratices and we will hear more of this in the future until someone deals with the issue.
You are right about the conditions but they should have thought about that before commiting heinous crimes The article is about solitary confinement prisoners.You land in solitary confinement if you a)get caught with contraband b)assault a guard or another inmate it is preety unfair for a guy who is in jail for not paying his taxes to be in the same cell with another inmate convicted for life for murder who can basicly murder him rape him at his own will without anything happening to him.That is what solitary confinement is for.To protect the regular criminals form the monsters.If you are in jail for life you can do what you want and not give a damn cause they can not add anything to your sentence.
@sva that guy changed his ways after murdering 2 people while free and god knows how many while in prison.He only stepped up when members of the brotherhood themselves were targeted.Btw you do not get to the leadership of the arian brotherhood by jaiwalking.It is blood in blood out.
You make the mistake of assuming that the people running the prison are using good practices when taking care of the inmates. Further more, I could give to shits what happens to murders and rapist, but how we treat them reflects on us as a whole. The idea that people who committed crimes should be treated like animals is not acceptable and all the arguments you put forward mean very little. The highest court in the US agrees too.
California sucks at running prisons. They treat their prisoners like trash and well below the standard that we in the US expect. They are an embarrassment on the US for doing so. This has been going on for years.
This is what I don't understand: we are basically punishing prisoners for violating laws, NOT transgressions against humanity. So basically, we can act in inhumane ways towards those who deserve it legally so long as it is sanctioned by law. It just doesn't sit right with me, and eventually, that very attitude will come back to those who think it's within their rights (either individually or as an institution) to act just like the "animals" who got themselves there because they "chose" to do so. (I'm kind of an anti-free will kind of guy).
This is one of those "which are the doctors? which the inmates?" kind of issue for me. We answer brutality with more brutality, but change the titles so it doesn't look like we're brutal. No, we're just enacting the very brutality these people deserve for their crimes. The problem is it then becomes cyclical.
On July 12 2013 00:32 theking1 wrote: Westside!! I can not believe how many people are defending career criminals here on this forum.You guys do realize that MOST of the people in the California penitenciary system are members of some criminal orgnization such as The bloods,Crips,Arian Brotherhood,Mexiacan Mafia,MS13, 18th street gangmSurenos,Skinheads,Noestra Familia,Latin Kings,Vice Lords,Drug Cartels etc.These are people who either commited dozens of murders and would slice you for a bag of Marijuana.It is litterally impossible to survive in a west coast penitenciarry without being gang affiliated.Thise people ar e not in there for fun.In fact judges in Cali give very light jail sentences for the sole reason of overpopulation of the penitenciarry system.MOST of the poeple in there are cold blooded murders who would kill you and your family for 100$.
And btw regarding solitary confinment i saw many people here lying that you can get to solitary for nothing.Wrong.You go to solitary for things such as contraband,assaulting an officer,assaulting other inmates etc.In other words they ar ein solitary to protect other inmates and guards from being murdered.If you guys want more background of what happens in Cali prisons check out Lockdownraw or the natgeographic documentaries on youtube.
These people are in solitary cuase they are a threat to the other inmates.You would not want to be in prison for tax evasion and be in a cell with a member of theArian Bortherhood who would kill you for not being th eright skin color.
@plexa your arguments work well with small time criminals.Here we are talking about life long gangbangers who kill and die for their gang,The ones that escape the gang do that due to their own will and after spending decade sin jail.DO not try and confuse a low time criminal with a killer from ms13.
30K is a lot of people. I am going to assume that there are all sorts of criminals in the California prision system. Also, that system is known for being terrible. They were recently ordered by the Supreme Court to either release some inmates or build more prisions. This was after 10 years of litigation involving over crowding due to the state's inability to fund their prisions correctly. They were ordered over and over to comply and stop the overcrowding. California just ignored the orders until the Supreme Court finally had to rule on it and step in.
This is nothing new, California sucks as running prisions. They have for a long time. They refuse to spend money on them or reform their pratices and we will hear more of this in the future until someone deals with the issue.
You are right about the conditions but they should have thought about that before commiting heinous crimes The article is about solitary confinement prisoners.You land in solitary confinement if you a)get caught with contraband b)assault a guard or another inmate it is preety unfair for a guy who is in jail for not paying his taxes to be in the same cell with another inmate convicted for life for murder who can basicly murder him rape him at his own will without anything happening to him.That is what solitary confinement is for.To protect the regular criminals form the monsters.If you are in jail for life you can do what you want and not give a damn cause they can not add anything to your sentence.
@sva that guy changed his ways after murdering 2 people while free and god knows how many while in prison.He only stepped up when members of the brotherhood themselves were targeted.Btw you do not get to the leadership of the arian brotherhood by jaiwalking.It is blood in blood out.
c. another prisoner claims you're in a prison gang d. They run out of space for new people e. You rub an officer the wrong way
offer evidence.i offered you evidence.The website that you linked offered only theoretical situations not one example.Show me a real situation where a criminal when to solitary when another inmate claimed that he was a gang memeber.There are none.Cause for you to be identified as a gang memeber you need to: a)have gang tatoos b)hang out with people form a certain gang.There is a special division in each penitenciary especially in california who deals with gang identification/gang tatoos. b)does assaulting an officer with a shank or putting memebers of your gang who are free to kill his family or throwing urine at him enters the category of "rubbing the wrong way"?
@Plansix and everybody else who thinks solitary is not deserved
try to apply high human principles to a real situation.Answer me this question please:
You are the manager of a prison.In your prison there are dozens of people convicted for life for things such as murders/rapes etc walking the same corridors and the same meal halls with prisoners in for tax evasion.One day a life convcted inmate assaults with a shank another inmate.What do you do with the assailant?Even if you give him more years it doesnt matter cause he already has life.You can't execute him cause his actions do not require the death sentence.What do you do?And I want a practical answer.
On July 12 2013 00:32 theking1 wrote: Westside!! I can not believe how many people are defending career criminals here on this forum.You guys do realize that MOST of the people in the California penitenciary system are members of some criminal orgnization such as The bloods,Crips,Arian Brotherhood,Mexiacan Mafia,MS13, 18th street gangmSurenos,Skinheads,Noestra Familia,Latin Kings,Vice Lords,Drug Cartels etc.These are people who either commited dozens of murders and would slice you for a bag of Marijuana.It is litterally impossible to survive in a west coast penitenciarry without being gang affiliated.Thise people ar e not in there for fun.In fact judges in Cali give very light jail sentences for the sole reason of overpopulation of the penitenciarry system.MOST of the poeple in there are cold blooded murders who would kill you and your family for 100$.
And btw regarding solitary confinment i saw many people here lying that you can get to solitary for nothing.Wrong.You go to solitary for things such as contraband,assaulting an officer,assaulting other inmates etc.In other words they ar ein solitary to protect other inmates and guards from being murdered.If you guys want more background of what happens in Cali prisons check out Lockdownraw or the natgeographic documentaries on youtube.
These people are in solitary cuase they are a threat to the other inmates.You would not want to be in prison for tax evasion and be in a cell with a member of theArian Bortherhood who would kill you for not being th eright skin color.
@plexa your arguments work well with small time criminals.Here we are talking about life long gangbangers who kill and die for their gang,The ones that escape the gang do that due to their own will and after spending decade sin jail.DO not try and confuse a low time criminal with a killer from ms13.
30K is a lot of people. I am going to assume that there are all sorts of criminals in the California prision system. Also, that system is known for being terrible. They were recently ordered by the Supreme Court to either release some inmates or build more prisions. This was after 10 years of litigation involving over crowding due to the state's inability to fund their prisions correctly. They were ordered over and over to comply and stop the overcrowding. California just ignored the orders until the Supreme Court finally had to rule on it and step in.
This is nothing new, California sucks as running prisions. They have for a long time. They refuse to spend money on them or reform their pratices and we will hear more of this in the future until someone deals with the issue.
You are right about the conditions but they should have thought about that before commiting heinous crimes The article is about solitary confinement prisoners.You land in solitary confinement if you a)get caught with contraband b)assault a guard or another inmate it is preety unfair for a guy who is in jail for not paying his taxes to be in the same cell with another inmate convicted for life for murder who can basicly murder him rape him at his own will without anything happening to him.That is what solitary confinement is for.To protect the regular criminals form the monsters.If you are in jail for life you can do what you want and not give a damn cause they can not add anything to your sentence.
@sva that guy changed his ways after murdering 2 people while free and god knows how many while in prison.He only stepped up when members of the brotherhood themselves were targeted.Btw you do not get to the leadership of the arian brotherhood by jaiwalking.It is blood in blood out.
It doesn't change the fact that people can change if they are given a chance.
And I feel like you are under the impression that the gaurds and people running the prison are "good" "moral" people. I'm sorry, but a lot of the people in these jobs are not morally sound. It's similiar to how our police force is now ran like a military unit, being told constantly that they are at war. You can go to jail in the US for having oral sex with your girlfriend.
There are a lot of really ridiculous laws that different places have in state that will put you in jail.
On July 12 2013 00:32 theking1 wrote: Westside!! I can not believe how many people are defending career criminals here on this forum.You guys do realize that MOST of the people in the California penitenciary system are members of some criminal orgnization such as The bloods,Crips,Arian Brotherhood,Mexiacan Mafia,MS13, 18th street gangmSurenos,Skinheads,Noestra Familia,Latin Kings,Vice Lords,Drug Cartels etc.These are people who either commited dozens of murders and would slice you for a bag of Marijuana.It is litterally impossible to survive in a west coast penitenciarry without being gang affiliated.Thise people ar e not in there for fun.In fact judges in Cali give very light jail sentences for the sole reason of overpopulation of the penitenciarry system.MOST of the poeple in there are cold blooded murders who would kill you and your family for 100$.
And btw regarding solitary confinment i saw many people here lying that you can get to solitary for nothing.Wrong.You go to solitary for things such as contraband,assaulting an officer,assaulting other inmates etc.In other words they ar ein solitary to protect other inmates and guards from being murdered.If you guys want more background of what happens in Cali prisons check out Lockdownraw or the natgeographic documentaries on youtube.
These people are in solitary cuase they are a threat to the other inmates.You would not want to be in prison for tax evasion and be in a cell with a member of theArian Bortherhood who would kill you for not being th eright skin color.
@plexa your arguments work well with small time criminals.Here we are talking about life long gangbangers who kill and die for their gang,The ones that escape the gang do that due to their own will and after spending decade sin jail.DO not try and confuse a low time criminal with a killer from ms13.
30K is a lot of people. I am going to assume that there are all sorts of criminals in the California prision system. Also, that system is known for being terrible. They were recently ordered by the Supreme Court to either release some inmates or build more prisions. This was after 10 years of litigation involving over crowding due to the state's inability to fund their prisions correctly. They were ordered over and over to comply and stop the overcrowding. California just ignored the orders until the Supreme Court finally had to rule on it and step in.
This is nothing new, California sucks as running prisions. They have for a long time. They refuse to spend money on them or reform their pratices and we will hear more of this in the future until someone deals with the issue.
You are right about the conditions but they should have thought about that before commiting heinous crimes The article is about solitary confinement prisoners.You land in solitary confinement if you a)get caught with contraband b)assault a guard or another inmate it is preety unfair for a guy who is in jail for not paying his taxes to be in the same cell with another inmate convicted for life for murder who can basicly murder him rape him at his own will without anything happening to him.That is what solitary confinement is for.To protect the regular criminals form the monsters.If you are in jail for life you can do what you want and not give a damn cause they can not add anything to your sentence.
@sva that guy changed his ways after murdering 2 people while free and god knows how many while in prison.He only stepped up when members of the brotherhood themselves were targeted.Btw you do not get to the leadership of the arian brotherhood by jaiwalking.It is blood in blood out.
c. another prisoner claims you're in a prison gang d. They run out of space for new people e. You rub an officer the wrong way
offer evidence.i offered you evidence.The website that you linked offered only theoretical situations not one example.Show me a real situation where a criminal when to solitary when another inmate claimed that he was a gang memeber.There are none.Cause for you to be identified as a gang memeber you need to: a)have gang tatoos b)hang out with people form a certain gang.There is a special division in each penitenciary especially in california who deals with gang identification/gang tatoos. b)does assaulting an officer with a shank or putting memebers of your gang who are free to kill his family or throwing urine at him enters the category of "rubbing the wrong way"?
@Plansix and everybody else who thinks solitary is not deserved
try to apply high human principles to a real situation.Answer me this question please:
You are the manager of a prison.In your prison there are dozens of people convicted for life for things such as murders/rapes etc walking the same corridors and the same meal halls with prisoners in for tax evasion.One day a life convcted inmate assaults with a shank another inmate.What do you do with the assailant?Even if you give him more years it doesnt matter cause he already has life.You can't execute him cause his actions do not require the death sentence.What do you do?And I want a practical answer.
I do not disagree with the use of solitary for prisoners they cannot control or who cause problems/are violent. The problem in this case is that it is OVER used. The prisons in California are so overcrowded that that the guards cannot control the population, so they use solitary in an to bring the population under control, which cases it to be over used.
Once again, you are arguing about the practice of using solitary, which is not the true discussion. The problem in California is that 30k prisoners in separate prisons decided to go on a hunger strike because California sucks at running prisons and has for 10 years.
Just because someone commited a crime doesn't mean we should strip them of basic human rights, or that they are a evil person, or that they aren't still human.
I agree. That is absolutely true. If only everyone understood that.......
There's really no reason for the needless torture of prisoners, but it's kind of scary to know that prisoners can actually go on strike.
It's also scary to know that the prisoners actually have to go on strike because no one else is standing up for them (assuming they're actually being tortured there). At least the media followed up on it though.
There's so much wrong shit in this country and abstractly with humanity in general. It's fucking depressing.
As to this particular case, we don't really know what exactly is happening so it's difficult to make a normative assessment about the situation.
Is solitary confinement torture? It probably depends on the length of time one is confined in it.
On July 12 2013 00:32 theking1 wrote: Westside!! I can not believe how many people are defending career criminals here on this forum.You guys do realize that MOST of the people in the California penitenciary system are members of some criminal orgnization such as The bloods,Crips,Arian Brotherhood,Mexiacan Mafia,MS13, 18th street gangmSurenos,Skinheads,Noestra Familia,Latin Kings,Vice Lords,Drug Cartels etc.These are people who either commited dozens of murders and would slice you for a bag of Marijuana.It is litterally impossible to survive in a west coast penitenciarry without being gang affiliated.Thise people ar e not in there for fun.In fact judges in Cali give very light jail sentences for the sole reason of overpopulation of the penitenciarry system.MOST of the poeple in there are cold blooded murders who would kill you and your family for 100$.
And btw regarding solitary confinment i saw many people here lying that you can get to solitary for nothing.Wrong.You go to solitary for things such as contraband,assaulting an officer,assaulting other inmates etc.In other words they ar ein solitary to protect other inmates and guards from being murdered.If you guys want more background of what happens in Cali prisons check out Lockdownraw or the natgeographic documentaries on youtube.
These people are in solitary cuase they are a threat to the other inmates.You would not want to be in prison for tax evasion and be in a cell with a member of theArian Bortherhood who would kill you for not being th eright skin color.
@plexa your arguments work well with small time criminals.Here we are talking about life long gangbangers who kill and die for their gang,The ones that escape the gang do that due to their own will and after spending decade sin jail.DO not try and confuse a low time criminal with a killer from ms13.
30K is a lot of people. I am going to assume that there are all sorts of criminals in the California prision system. Also, that system is known for being terrible. They were recently ordered by the Supreme Court to either release some inmates or build more prisions. This was after 10 years of litigation involving over crowding due to the state's inability to fund their prisions correctly. They were ordered over and over to comply and stop the overcrowding. California just ignored the orders until the Supreme Court finally had to rule on it and step in.
This is nothing new, California sucks as running prisions. They have for a long time. They refuse to spend money on them or reform their pratices and we will hear more of this in the future until someone deals with the issue.
You are right about the conditions but they should have thought about that before commiting heinous crimes The article is about solitary confinement prisoners.You land in solitary confinement if you a)get caught with contraband b)assault a guard or another inmate it is preety unfair for a guy who is in jail for not paying his taxes to be in the same cell with another inmate convicted for life for murder who can basicly murder him rape him at his own will without anything happening to him.That is what solitary confinement is for.To protect the regular criminals form the monsters.If you are in jail for life you can do what you want and not give a damn cause they can not add anything to your sentence.
@sva that guy changed his ways after murdering 2 people while free and god knows how many while in prison.He only stepped up when members of the brotherhood themselves were targeted.Btw you do not get to the leadership of the arian brotherhood by jaiwalking.It is blood in blood out.
c. another prisoner claims you're in a prison gang d. They run out of space for new people e. You rub an officer the wrong way
offer evidence.i offered you evidence.The website that you linked offered only theoretical situations not one example.Show me a real situation where a criminal when to solitary when another inmate claimed that he was a gang memeber.There are none.Cause for you to be identified as a gang memeber you need to: a)have gang tatoos b)hang out with people form a certain gang.There is a special division in each penitenciary especially in california who deals with gang identification/gang tatoos. b)does assaulting an officer with a shank or putting memebers of your gang who are free to kill his family or throwing urine at him enters the category of "rubbing the wrong way"?
@Plansix and everybody else who thinks solitary is not deserved
try to apply high human principles to a real situation.Answer me this question please:
You are the manager of a prison.In your prison there are dozens of people convicted for life for things such as murders/rapes etc walking the same corridors and the same meal halls with prisoners in for tax evasion.One day a life convcted inmate assaults with a shank another inmate.What do you do with the assailant?Even if you give him more years it doesnt matter cause he already has life.You can't execute him cause his actions do not require the death sentence.What do you do?And I want a practical answer.
I do not disagree with the use of solitary for prisoners they cannot control or who cause problems/are violent. The problem in this case is that it is OVER used. The prisons in California are so overcrowded that that the guards cannot control the population, so they use solitary in an to bring the population under control, which cases it to be over used.
Once again, you are arguing about the practice of using solitary, which is not the true discussion. The problem in California is that 30k prisoners in separate prisons decided to go on a hunger strike because California sucks at running prisons and has for 10 years.
I have just red the New York Times article.Apparently the warden of the prison already released low level offenders.And the hunger strike was started by a few people at pelican Bay,a supermax prison designed to house "the worst of the worst" notorious for housing some of the most dangerous gangs in the US.You do not get into peican bay for swearing in the church and you do not get in solitary confinement in pelican bay for jaywalking.the people there have probably commited many murders.I would not be surprised if the hunger strikers were all gang members.
You can not release gang memebrs into the streets.Nor can you build hundreds of new prisons to accomodate an increasing number of offenders.The bottom line is the honest hardworking citizens must be protected from criminals.And there is also a saying:"don't do the crime if ya can't do the time".the gang leaders who are in solitary confinemnt at Pelican Bay should of tought about that before ordering murders,kidnaps,ransoms,robberies etc
Btw form what i have seen in the documentary they live better than Romanian prisoners.Those people live 25 in a room with about 4 cubic meters of oxigen each which is below the 8 cubic meters imposed by european law.Do I care?No.cause most of them would kill me for the 10 euros in my pocket and would rape my entire family if they did a home invasion.
@ggtemplar
they have good lawyers and most of them know the penal code better than the lawyers themselves.If they were actually mistreated they would sue the state for millions of dollars and win.They should have thought about bad conditions before mudering innocents/raping innocent women or robbing innocent people.
Their human rights aren't being violated here, they are given food, water, and shelter. They just want better conditions that they have been given to them. They have broken the rules of society and are paying the price. If they don't want to eat then that is their choice, they offered them the food and they refused it. Overcrowding is a problem in CA prisons, however that doesn't mean that they deserve better conditions for being criminals.
Just because someone commited a crime doesn't mean we should strip them of basic human rights, or that they are a evil person, or that they aren't still human.
I agree. That is absolutely true. If only everyone understood that.......
I find it rediculous that icon's like Robin Hood are so wildly praised, yet Mexican's who leave mexico for a better life are so criminalized. Our society has some rediculous issues trying to keep things straight.
On July 12 2013 02:02 Dubhghall wrote: Their human rights aren't being violated here, they are given food, water, and shelter. They just want better conditions that they have been given to them. They have broken the rules of society and are paying the price. If they don't want to eat then that is their choice, they offered them the food and they refused it. Overcrowding is a problem in CA prisons, however that doesn't mean that they deserve better conditions for being criminals.
Even they get treated better than homeless people in America.
Just because someone commited a crime doesn't mean we should strip them of basic human rights, or that they are a evil person, or that they aren't still human.
I agree. That is absolutely true. If only everyone understood that.......
I find it rediculous that icon's like Robin Hood are so wildly praised, yet Mexican's who leave mexico for a better life are so criminalized. Our society has some rediculous issues trying to keep things straight.
You have not even red the innitial post nor the articles attached to the OP.You are just derailing the thread to impose your agenda.The strike was started by solitary confinement inmates at Pelican bay, a supermax prison.You get there only if you have serious gang affiliation charges or have commited a serious crime such as armed robbery/assault/rape murder.Those are the worst of the worst.
illegally crossing the border in the USA gets you max 7 days in jail and a trip back to Mexico.You do not get solitary confinement at Pelican bay for illegally crossing the border.Stop derailing.
On July 12 2013 00:32 theking1 wrote: Westside!! I can not believe how many people are defending career criminals here on this forum.You guys do realize that MOST of the people in the California penitenciary system are members of some criminal orgnization such as The bloods,Crips,Arian Brotherhood,Mexiacan Mafia,MS13, 18th street gangmSurenos,Skinheads,Noestra Familia,Latin Kings,Vice Lords,Drug Cartels etc.These are people who either commited dozens of murders and would slice you for a bag of Marijuana.It is litterally impossible to survive in a west coast penitenciarry without being gang affiliated.Thise people ar e not in there for fun.In fact judges in Cali give very light jail sentences for the sole reason of overpopulation of the penitenciarry system.MOST of the poeple in there are cold blooded murders who would kill you and your family for 100$.
And btw regarding solitary confinment i saw many people here lying that you can get to solitary for nothing.Wrong.You go to solitary for things such as contraband,assaulting an officer,assaulting other inmates etc.In other words they ar ein solitary to protect other inmates and guards from being murdered.If you guys want more background of what happens in Cali prisons check out Lockdownraw or the natgeographic documentaries on youtube.
These people are in solitary cuase they are a threat to the other inmates.You would not want to be in prison for tax evasion and be in a cell with a member of theArian Bortherhood who would kill you for not being th eright skin color.
@plexa your arguments work well with small time criminals.Here we are talking about life long gangbangers who kill and die for their gang,The ones that escape the gang do that due to their own will and after spending decade sin jail.DO not try and confuse a low time criminal with a killer from ms13.
30K is a lot of people. I am going to assume that there are all sorts of criminals in the California prision system. Also, that system is known for being terrible. They were recently ordered by the Supreme Court to either release some inmates or build more prisions. This was after 10 years of litigation involving over crowding due to the state's inability to fund their prisions correctly. They were ordered over and over to comply and stop the overcrowding. California just ignored the orders until the Supreme Court finally had to rule on it and step in.
This is nothing new, California sucks as running prisions. They have for a long time. They refuse to spend money on them or reform their pratices and we will hear more of this in the future until someone deals with the issue.
You are right about the conditions but they should have thought about that before commiting heinous crimes The article is about solitary confinement prisoners.You land in solitary confinement if you a)get caught with contraband b)assault a guard or another inmate it is preety unfair for a guy who is in jail for not paying his taxes to be in the same cell with another inmate convicted for life for murder who can basicly murder him rape him at his own will without anything happening to him.That is what solitary confinement is for.To protect the regular criminals form the monsters.If you are in jail for life you can do what you want and not give a damn cause they can not add anything to your sentence.
@sva that guy changed his ways after murdering 2 people while free and god knows how many while in prison.He only stepped up when members of the brotherhood themselves were targeted.Btw you do not get to the leadership of the arian brotherhood by jaiwalking.It is blood in blood out.
c. another prisoner claims you're in a prison gang d. They run out of space for new people e. You rub an officer the wrong way
offer evidence.i offered you evidence.The website that you linked offered only theoretical situations not one example.Show me a real situation where a criminal when to solitary when another inmate claimed that he was a gang memeber.There are none.Cause for you to be identified as a gang memeber you need to: a)have gang tatoos b)hang out with people form a certain gang.There is a special division in each penitenciary especially in california who deals with gang identification/gang tatoos. b)does assaulting an officer with a shank or putting memebers of your gang who are free to kill his family or throwing urine at him enters the category of "rubbing the wrong way"?
@Plansix and everybody else who thinks solitary is not deserved
try to apply high human principles to a real situation.Answer me this question please:
You are the manager of a prison.In your prison there are dozens of people convicted for life for things such as murders/rapes etc walking the same corridors and the same meal halls with prisoners in for tax evasion.One day a life convcted inmate assaults with a shank another inmate.What do you do with the assailant?Even if you give him more years it doesnt matter cause he already has life.You can't execute him cause his actions do not require the death sentence.What do you do?And I want a practical answer.
I do not disagree with the use of solitary for prisoners they cannot control or who cause problems/are violent. The problem in this case is that it is OVER used. The prisons in California are so overcrowded that that the guards cannot control the population, so they use solitary in an to bring the population under control, which cases it to be over used.
Once again, you are arguing about the practice of using solitary, which is not the true discussion. The problem in California is that 30k prisoners in separate prisons decided to go on a hunger strike because California sucks at running prisons and has for 10 years.
I have just red the New York Times article.Apparently the warden of the prison already released low level offenders.And the hunger strike was started by a few people at pelican Bay,a supermax prison designed to house "the worst of the worst" notorious for housing some of the most dangerous gangs in the US.You do not get into peican bay for swearing in the church and you do not get in solitary confinement in pelican bay for jaywalking.the people there have probably commited many murders.I would not be surprised if the hunger strikers were all gang members.
You can not release gang memebrs into the streets.Nor can you build hundreds of new prisons to accomodate an increasing number of offenders.The bottom line is the honest hardworking citizens must be protected from criminals.And there is also a saying:"don't do the crime if ya can't do the time".the gang leaders who are in solitary confinemnt at Pelican Bay should of tought about that before ordering murders,kidnaps,ransoms,robberies etc
The court ordered the state to release 30K prisoners, of which they have released 10K. Also, it points out that 10,000 inmates are being held in solitary confinement(in 2011, when the ruling came down). There is no way that all 10,000 inmates needed to be there.
Also, I read the article you cited and this quote was at the end:
“Officials have this bunker mentality, but now it’s like a house of cards is falling down,” Ms. Strickman said. “There have been so many problems for decades, and now they are being forced to deal with them all at once.”
California has had this problem for over 10 years and had not addressed it. They have not complied with the order from the Supreme Court and have not worked to address the issue. They imprison to many people and don't know how to fix the problem because it would cost money.
This has nothing to do with how bad the inmates are. It has do with the fact that California fucking sucks at running prisons and refuses to fix the problem. So now the problem is front and center and there is nothing they can do.
Stop straw manning, its not working and you are just pointing out how little you know about what is going on.
On July 12 2013 02:02 Dubhghall wrote: Their human rights aren't being violated here, they are given food, water, and shelter. They just want better conditions that they have been given to them. They have broken the rules of society and are paying the price. If they don't want to eat then that is their choice, they offered them the food and they refused it. Overcrowding is a problem in CA prisons, however that doesn't mean that they deserve better conditions for being criminals.
Even they get treated better than homeless people in America.
What a fucking joke...
Because homeless people have to worry about being beaten, raped, killed, wrongly accused, put in solitary confinement and so on for no reason, every moment of their lives....
I agree homelessness needs help in America, but please don't compare prison systems to the homeless, because it's not a comparable thing.
Education is truly whats wrong in this country, but that's another discussion.
I mean think about it this way, if we have 30,000 people protesting about the current solitary confinement policy's you can't see that their is something wrong with that? That's more then a small town of people. Don't you think the prison systems might be doing something wrong if it's that many people.
No. you break the law and have to serve time you get everything thats coming to you. There are victims behind their crimes and some of them have to live through extremely hard times for no real reason for it ever to have happened in the first place. They dont get the luxury of anything.
Noone should be bothered about this anywhere. Let them starve cos im going to go as far as to say if one of these people got out, moved next to you and ruined your life, you are assured they give 0 fucks and you will wish you never pandered to the bullshit im hearing right now.
You Lose your rights when you break the law, id expect everyday to be a nightmare if i was sent to jail because right now its looking like a fucking joke with the shit they are given. . . on saying that tho, they are much better off in there than out here fucking with YOUR lives.
@theking1 below
Hey man 1 thing at a time bro i made a 9 line post in haste im sure nothing said here is going to make a blind bit of difference to anything. People gonna be bad, lets hop you and I are not on the end of it, im sure depending on the severity of the action we would want that death penalty applied pretty sharpish.
Just because someone commited a crime doesn't mean we should strip them of basic human rights, or that they are a evil person, or that they aren't still human.
I agree. That is absolutely true. If only everyone understood that.......
I find it rediculous that icon's like Robin Hood are so wildly praised, yet Mexican's who leave mexico for a better life are so criminalized. Our society has some rediculous issues trying to keep things straight.
You have not even red the innitial post nor the articles attached to the OP.You are just derailing the thread to impose your agenda.The strike was started by solitary confinement inmates at Pelican bay, a supermax prison.You get there only if you have serious gang affiliation charges or have commited a serious crime such as armed robbery/assault/rape murder.Those are the worst of the worst.
illegally crossing the border in the USA gets you max 7 days in jail and a trip back to Mexico.You do not get solitary confinement at Pelican bay for illegally crossing the border.Stop derailing.
I have read it, i'm just trying to explain that our prison systems in the U.S. are falling apart and over populated.
On July 12 2013 00:32 theking1 wrote: Westside!! I can not believe how many people are defending career criminals here on this forum.You guys do realize that MOST of the people in the California penitenciary system are members of some criminal orgnization such as The bloods,Crips,Arian Brotherhood,Mexiacan Mafia,MS13, 18th street gangmSurenos,Skinheads,Noestra Familia,Latin Kings,Vice Lords,Drug Cartels etc.These are people who either commited dozens of murders and would slice you for a bag of Marijuana.It is litterally impossible to survive in a west coast penitenciarry without being gang affiliated.Thise people ar e not in there for fun.In fact judges in Cali give very light jail sentences for the sole reason of overpopulation of the penitenciarry system.MOST of the poeple in there are cold blooded murders who would kill you and your family for 100$.
And btw regarding solitary confinment i saw many people here lying that you can get to solitary for nothing.Wrong.You go to solitary for things such as contraband,assaulting an officer,assaulting other inmates etc.In other words they ar ein solitary to protect other inmates and guards from being murdered.If you guys want more background of what happens in Cali prisons check out Lockdownraw or the natgeographic documentaries on youtube.
These people are in solitary cuase they are a threat to the other inmates.You would not want to be in prison for tax evasion and be in a cell with a member of theArian Bortherhood who would kill you for not being th eright skin color.
@plexa your arguments work well with small time criminals.Here we are talking about life long gangbangers who kill and die for their gang,The ones that escape the gang do that due to their own will and after spending decade sin jail.DO not try and confuse a low time criminal with a killer from ms13.
30K is a lot of people. I am going to assume that there are all sorts of criminals in the California prision system. Also, that system is known for being terrible. They were recently ordered by the Supreme Court to either release some inmates or build more prisions. This was after 10 years of litigation involving over crowding due to the state's inability to fund their prisions correctly. They were ordered over and over to comply and stop the overcrowding. California just ignored the orders until the Supreme Court finally had to rule on it and step in.
This is nothing new, California sucks as running prisions. They have for a long time. They refuse to spend money on them or reform their pratices and we will hear more of this in the future until someone deals with the issue.
You are right about the conditions but they should have thought about that before commiting heinous crimes The article is about solitary confinement prisoners.You land in solitary confinement if you a)get caught with contraband b)assault a guard or another inmate it is preety unfair for a guy who is in jail for not paying his taxes to be in the same cell with another inmate convicted for life for murder who can basicly murder him rape him at his own will without anything happening to him.That is what solitary confinement is for.To protect the regular criminals form the monsters.If you are in jail for life you can do what you want and not give a damn cause they can not add anything to your sentence.
@sva that guy changed his ways after murdering 2 people while free and god knows how many while in prison.He only stepped up when members of the brotherhood themselves were targeted.Btw you do not get to the leadership of the arian brotherhood by jaiwalking.It is blood in blood out.
c. another prisoner claims you're in a prison gang d. They run out of space for new people e. You rub an officer the wrong way
offer evidence.i offered you evidence.The website that you linked offered only theoretical situations not one example.Show me a real situation where a criminal when to solitary when another inmate claimed that he was a gang memeber.There are none.Cause for you to be identified as a gang memeber you need to: a)have gang tatoos b)hang out with people form a certain gang.There is a special division in each penitenciary especially in california who deals with gang identification/gang tatoos. b)does assaulting an officer with a shank or putting memebers of your gang who are free to kill his family or throwing urine at him enters the category of "rubbing the wrong way"?
@Plansix and everybody else who thinks solitary is not deserved
try to apply high human principles to a real situation.Answer me this question please:
You are the manager of a prison.In your prison there are dozens of people convicted for life for things such as murders/rapes etc walking the same corridors and the same meal halls with prisoners in for tax evasion.One day a life convcted inmate assaults with a shank another inmate.What do you do with the assailant?Even if you give him more years it doesnt matter cause he already has life.You can't execute him cause his actions do not require the death sentence.What do you do?And I want a practical answer.
I do not disagree with the use of solitary for prisoners they cannot control or who cause problems/are violent. The problem in this case is that it is OVER used. The prisons in California are so overcrowded that that the guards cannot control the population, so they use solitary in an to bring the population under control, which cases it to be over used.
Once again, you are arguing about the practice of using solitary, which is not the true discussion. The problem in California is that 30k prisoners in separate prisons decided to go on a hunger strike because California sucks at running prisons and has for 10 years.
I have just red the New York Times article.Apparently the warden of the prison already released low level offenders.And the hunger strike was started by a few people at pelican Bay,a supermax prison designed to house "the worst of the worst" notorious for housing some of the most dangerous gangs in the US.You do not get into peican bay for swearing in the church and you do not get in solitary confinement in pelican bay for jaywalking.the people there have probably commited many murders.I would not be surprised if the hunger strikers were all gang members.
You can not release gang memebrs into the streets.Nor can you build hundreds of new prisons to accomodate an increasing number of offenders.The bottom line is the honest hardworking citizens must be protected from criminals.And there is also a saying:"don't do the crime if ya can't do the time".the gang leaders who are in solitary confinemnt at Pelican Bay should of tought about that before ordering murders,kidnaps,ransoms,robberies etc
The court ordered the state to release 30K prisoners, of which they have released 10K. Also, it points out that 10,000 inmates are being held in solitary confinement(in 2011, when the ruling came down). There is no way that all 10,000 inmates needed to be there.
Also, I read the article you cited and this quote was at the end:
“Officials have this bunker mentality, but now it’s like a house of cards is falling down,” Ms. Strickman said. “There have been so many problems for decades, and now they are being forced to deal with them all at once.”
California has had this problem for over 10 years and had not addressed it. They have not complied with the order from the Supreme Court and have not worked to address the issue. They imprison to many people and don't know how to fix the problem because it would cost money.
This has nothing to do with how bad the inmates are. It has do with the fact that California fucking sucks at running prisons and refuses to fix the problem. So now the problem is front and center and there is nothing they can do.
Stop straw manning, its not working and you are just pointing out how little you know about what is going on.
Defense lawyers use big words to defend they clients.And you still haven't provided me with an example of someone unlawfully sentenced to solitary.Now you switched the discussion to overcrowding which is an issue but one witohut any cheap sollution.The only sollution is: 1..Build more expensive prisons for which the state has no money to build and maintain
Btw if your sollution to the issue is releasing 20k dangerous offenders after they robbed/killed and god knows what they did to innocent people then you aren't living in california or you need a reality check.20k people do not get in jail for nothing.The only ones who will suffer form their release are the honest citizens who will have to deal with them on the streets
@statixex
who cares about the victims?Who cares about the years of psychological trauma somebody has to go through after being raped/beaten/mugged or have their family members being the victims of a drive by or a gang shotout?WHo cares about the kids who become drug addicts because dealers are at every corner.Who cares about the victims families and the suffering they have to go thorugh?Unless you are killed in a schoolshooting apparetly you do not get any airtime and nobody writes articles about you.
Id like to kill all the stupid people like those in favour of a prison system whose main principle is the execution of punishment.
But I cant possibly kill every stupid person on this planet which puts me in the awkward spot to just be able to kill some of them. Maybe one, maybe three, it doesnt matter. In the end that hurts me more than it hurts the stupid people because I will be thrown into prison and rightly so I might add.
Dealing with prisoners is the same, really. If you were able to just wipe them out entirely you might create a situation which is favourable for the part of society that is not involved. Im assuming that people who are favouring the "tough on crime"-thing wouldnt be directly affected by this measure (Killing all the prisoners).
But lets be realistic: I cant imagine that this would be considered a just way of dealing with every crime thats committed by the majority of people. Can you?Also, you have a constitution in America, right?
Because you are unable to achieve what you actually want (Getting rid of the "problem" entirely) you decide that prisoners should at least be treated in the worst way possible but they will have to be set free eventually (which is the status quo in California basically). And because they were treated like animals they now behave even more antisocial than before. Which not only hurts them but also society which also (or mainly) consists of all the stupid people in favour of rigid law.
To cut a long story short: You are hurting yourself by trying to hurt them. That may seem like an ok trade trade to you but id consider you an idiot.
On July 12 2013 00:32 theking1 wrote: Westside!! I can not believe how many people are defending career criminals here on this forum.You guys do realize that MOST of the people in the California penitenciary system are members of some criminal orgnization such as The bloods,Crips,Arian Brotherhood,Mexiacan Mafia,MS13, 18th street gangmSurenos,Skinheads,Noestra Familia,Latin Kings,Vice Lords,Drug Cartels etc.These are people who either commited dozens of murders and would slice you for a bag of Marijuana.It is litterally impossible to survive in a west coast penitenciarry without being gang affiliated.Thise people ar e not in there for fun.In fact judges in Cali give very light jail sentences for the sole reason of overpopulation of the penitenciarry system.MOST of the poeple in there are cold blooded murders who would kill you and your family for 100$.
And btw regarding solitary confinment i saw many people here lying that you can get to solitary for nothing.Wrong.You go to solitary for things such as contraband,assaulting an officer,assaulting other inmates etc.In other words they ar ein solitary to protect other inmates and guards from being murdered.If you guys want more background of what happens in Cali prisons check out Lockdownraw or the natgeographic documentaries on youtube.
These people are in solitary cuase they are a threat to the other inmates.You would not want to be in prison for tax evasion and be in a cell with a member of theArian Bortherhood who would kill you for not being th eright skin color.
@plexa your arguments work well with small time criminals.Here we are talking about life long gangbangers who kill and die for their gang,The ones that escape the gang do that due to their own will and after spending decade sin jail.DO not try and confuse a low time criminal with a killer from ms13.
30K is a lot of people. I am going to assume that there are all sorts of criminals in the California prision system. Also, that system is known for being terrible. They were recently ordered by the Supreme Court to either release some inmates or build more prisions. This was after 10 years of litigation involving over crowding due to the state's inability to fund their prisions correctly. They were ordered over and over to comply and stop the overcrowding. California just ignored the orders until the Supreme Court finally had to rule on it and step in.
This is nothing new, California sucks as running prisions. They have for a long time. They refuse to spend money on them or reform their pratices and we will hear more of this in the future until someone deals with the issue.
You are right about the conditions but they should have thought about that before commiting heinous crimes The article is about solitary confinement prisoners.You land in solitary confinement if you a)get caught with contraband b)assault a guard or another inmate it is preety unfair for a guy who is in jail for not paying his taxes to be in the same cell with another inmate convicted for life for murder who can basicly murder him rape him at his own will without anything happening to him.That is what solitary confinement is for.To protect the regular criminals form the monsters.If you are in jail for life you can do what you want and not give a damn cause they can not add anything to your sentence.
@sva that guy changed his ways after murdering 2 people while free and god knows how many while in prison.He only stepped up when members of the brotherhood themselves were targeted.Btw you do not get to the leadership of the arian brotherhood by jaiwalking.It is blood in blood out.
c. another prisoner claims you're in a prison gang d. They run out of space for new people e. You rub an officer the wrong way
offer evidence.i offered you evidence.The website that you linked offered only theoretical situations not one example.Show me a real situation where a criminal when to solitary when another inmate claimed that he was a gang memeber.There are none.Cause for you to be identified as a gang memeber you need to: a)have gang tatoos b)hang out with people form a certain gang.There is a special division in each penitenciary especially in california who deals with gang identification/gang tatoos. b)does assaulting an officer with a shank or putting memebers of your gang who are free to kill his family or throwing urine at him enters the category of "rubbing the wrong way"?
@Plansix and everybody else who thinks solitary is not deserved
try to apply high human principles to a real situation.Answer me this question please:
You are the manager of a prison.In your prison there are dozens of people convicted for life for things such as murders/rapes etc walking the same corridors and the same meal halls with prisoners in for tax evasion.One day a life convcted inmate assaults with a shank another inmate.What do you do with the assailant?Even if you give him more years it doesnt matter cause he already has life.You can't execute him cause his actions do not require the death sentence.What do you do?And I want a practical answer.
I do not disagree with the use of solitary for prisoners they cannot control or who cause problems/are violent. The problem in this case is that it is OVER used. The prisons in California are so overcrowded that that the guards cannot control the population, so they use solitary in an to bring the population under control, which cases it to be over used.
Once again, you are arguing about the practice of using solitary, which is not the true discussion. The problem in California is that 30k prisoners in separate prisons decided to go on a hunger strike because California sucks at running prisons and has for 10 years.
they have good lawyers and most of them know the penal code better than the lawyers themselves.If they were actually mistreated they would sue the state for millions of dollars and win.They should have thought about bad conditions before mudering innocents/raping innocent women or robbing innocent people.
On July 12 2013 00:32 theking1 wrote: Westside!! I can not believe how many people are defending career criminals here on this forum.You guys do realize that MOST of the people in the California penitenciary system are members of some criminal orgnization such as The bloods,Crips,Arian Brotherhood,Mexiacan Mafia,MS13, 18th street gangmSurenos,Skinheads,Noestra Familia,Latin Kings,Vice Lords,Drug Cartels etc.These are people who either commited dozens of murders and would slice you for a bag of Marijuana.It is litterally impossible to survive in a west coast penitenciarry without being gang affiliated.Thise people ar e not in there for fun.In fact judges in Cali give very light jail sentences for the sole reason of overpopulation of the penitenciarry system.MOST of the poeple in there are cold blooded murders who would kill you and your family for 100$.
And btw regarding solitary confinment i saw many people here lying that you can get to solitary for nothing.Wrong.You go to solitary for things such as contraband,assaulting an officer,assaulting other inmates etc.In other words they ar ein solitary to protect other inmates and guards from being murdered.If you guys want more background of what happens in Cali prisons check out Lockdownraw or the natgeographic documentaries on youtube.
These people are in solitary cuase they are a threat to the other inmates.You would not want to be in prison for tax evasion and be in a cell with a member of theArian Bortherhood who would kill you for not being th eright skin color.
@plexa your arguments work well with small time criminals.Here we are talking about life long gangbangers who kill and die for their gang,The ones that escape the gang do that due to their own will and after spending decade sin jail.DO not try and confuse a low time criminal with a killer from ms13.
30K is a lot of people. I am going to assume that there are all sorts of criminals in the California prision system. Also, that system is known for being terrible. They were recently ordered by the Supreme Court to either release some inmates or build more prisions. This was after 10 years of litigation involving over crowding due to the state's inability to fund their prisions correctly. They were ordered over and over to comply and stop the overcrowding. California just ignored the orders until the Supreme Court finally had to rule on it and step in.
This is nothing new, California sucks as running prisions. They have for a long time. They refuse to spend money on them or reform their pratices and we will hear more of this in the future until someone deals with the issue.
You are right about the conditions but they should have thought about that before commiting heinous crimes The article is about solitary confinement prisoners.You land in solitary confinement if you a)get caught with contraband b)assault a guard or another inmate it is preety unfair for a guy who is in jail for not paying his taxes to be in the same cell with another inmate convicted for life for murder who can basicly murder him rape him at his own will without anything happening to him.That is what solitary confinement is for.To protect the regular criminals form the monsters.If you are in jail for life you can do what you want and not give a damn cause they can not add anything to your sentence.
@sva that guy changed his ways after murdering 2 people while free and god knows how many while in prison.He only stepped up when members of the brotherhood themselves were targeted.Btw you do not get to the leadership of the arian brotherhood by jaiwalking.It is blood in blood out.
c. another prisoner claims you're in a prison gang d. They run out of space for new people e. You rub an officer the wrong way
offer evidence.i offered you evidence.The website that you linked offered only theoretical situations not one example.Show me a real situation where a criminal when to solitary when another inmate claimed that he was a gang memeber.There are none.Cause for you to be identified as a gang memeber you need to: a)have gang tatoos b)hang out with people form a certain gang.There is a special division in each penitenciary especially in california who deals with gang identification/gang tatoos. b)does assaulting an officer with a shank or putting memebers of your gang who are free to kill his family or throwing urine at him enters the category of "rubbing the wrong way"?
@Plansix and everybody else who thinks solitary is not deserved
try to apply high human principles to a real situation.Answer me this question please:
You are the manager of a prison.In your prison there are dozens of people convicted for life for things such as murders/rapes etc walking the same corridors and the same meal halls with prisoners in for tax evasion.One day a life convcted inmate assaults with a shank another inmate.What do you do with the assailant?Even if you give him more years it doesnt matter cause he already has life.You can't execute him cause his actions do not require the death sentence.What do you do?And I want a practical answer.
I do not disagree with the use of solitary for prisoners they cannot control or who cause problems/are violent. The problem in this case is that it is OVER used. The prisons in California are so overcrowded that that the guards cannot control the population, so they use solitary in an to bring the population under control, which cases it to be over used.
Once again, you are arguing about the practice of using solitary, which is not the true discussion. The problem in California is that 30k prisoners in separate prisons decided to go on a hunger strike because California sucks at running prisons and has for 10 years.
I have just red the New York Times article.Apparently the warden of the prison already released low level offenders.And the hunger strike was started by a few people at pelican Bay,a supermax prison designed to house "the worst of the worst" notorious for housing some of the most dangerous gangs in the US.You do not get into peican bay for swearing in the church and you do not get in solitary confinement in pelican bay for jaywalking.the people there have probably commited many murders.I would not be surprised if the hunger strikers were all gang members.
You can not release gang memebrs into the streets.Nor can you build hundreds of new prisons to accomodate an increasing number of offenders.The bottom line is the honest hardworking citizens must be protected from criminals.And there is also a saying:"don't do the crime if ya can't do the time".the gang leaders who are in solitary confinemnt at Pelican Bay should of tought about that before ordering murders,kidnaps,ransoms,robberies etc
The court ordered the state to release 30K prisoners, of which they have released 10K. Also, it points out that 10,000 inmates are being held in solitary confinement(in 2011, when the ruling came down). There is no way that all 10,000 inmates needed to be there.
Also, I read the article you cited and this quote was at the end:
“Officials have this bunker mentality, but now it’s like a house of cards is falling down,” Ms. Strickman said. “There have been so many problems for decades, and now they are being forced to deal with them all at once.”
California has had this problem for over 10 years and had not addressed it. They have not complied with the order from the Supreme Court and have not worked to address the issue. They imprison to many people and don't know how to fix the problem because it would cost money.
This has nothing to do with how bad the inmates are. It has do with the fact that California fucking sucks at running prisons and refuses to fix the problem. So now the problem is front and center and there is nothing they can do.
Stop straw manning, its not working and you are just pointing out how little you know about what is going on.
Defense lawyers use big words to defend they clients.And you still haven't provided me with an example of someone unlawfully sentenced to solitary.Now you switched the discussion to overcrowding which is an issue but one witohut any cheap sollution.The only sollution is: 1..Build more expensive prisons for which the state has no money to build and maintain
Btw if your sollution to the issue is releasing 20k dangerous offenders after they robbed/killed and god knows what they did to innocent people then you aren't living in california or you need a reality check.20k people do not get in jail for nothing.The only ones who will suffer form their release are the honest citizens who will have to deal with them on the streets
It shouldn't need to be said, but the argument isn't to release them from solitary to the public, it's to release them from solitary into regular prison. Newsflash:
The Philippines only imprison professional dancers, as illustrated in this documentary.
On July 12 2013 00:32 theking1 wrote: Westside!! I can not believe how many people are defending career criminals here on this forum.You guys do realize that MOST of the people in the California penitenciary system are members of some criminal orgnization such as The bloods,Crips,Arian Brotherhood,Mexiacan Mafia,MS13, 18th street gangmSurenos,Skinheads,Noestra Familia,Latin Kings,Vice Lords,Drug Cartels etc.These are people who either commited dozens of murders and would slice you for a bag of Marijuana.It is litterally impossible to survive in a west coast penitenciarry without being gang affiliated.Thise people ar e not in there for fun.In fact judges in Cali give very light jail sentences for the sole reason of overpopulation of the penitenciarry system.MOST of the poeple in there are cold blooded murders who would kill you and your family for 100$.
And btw regarding solitary confinment i saw many people here lying that you can get to solitary for nothing.Wrong.You go to solitary for things such as contraband,assaulting an officer,assaulting other inmates etc.In other words they ar ein solitary to protect other inmates and guards from being murdered.If you guys want more background of what happens in Cali prisons check out Lockdownraw or the natgeographic documentaries on youtube.
These people are in solitary cuase they are a threat to the other inmates.You would not want to be in prison for tax evasion and be in a cell with a member of theArian Bortherhood who would kill you for not being th eright skin color.
@plexa your arguments work well with small time criminals.Here we are talking about life long gangbangers who kill and die for their gang,The ones that escape the gang do that due to their own will and after spending decade sin jail.DO not try and confuse a low time criminal with a killer from ms13.
30K is a lot of people. I am going to assume that there are all sorts of criminals in the California prision system. Also, that system is known for being terrible. They were recently ordered by the Supreme Court to either release some inmates or build more prisions. This was after 10 years of litigation involving over crowding due to the state's inability to fund their prisions correctly. They were ordered over and over to comply and stop the overcrowding. California just ignored the orders until the Supreme Court finally had to rule on it and step in.
This is nothing new, California sucks as running prisions. They have for a long time. They refuse to spend money on them or reform their pratices and we will hear more of this in the future until someone deals with the issue.
You are right about the conditions but they should have thought about that before commiting heinous crimes The article is about solitary confinement prisoners.You land in solitary confinement if you a)get caught with contraband b)assault a guard or another inmate it is preety unfair for a guy who is in jail for not paying his taxes to be in the same cell with another inmate convicted for life for murder who can basicly murder him rape him at his own will without anything happening to him.That is what solitary confinement is for.To protect the regular criminals form the monsters.If you are in jail for life you can do what you want and not give a damn cause they can not add anything to your sentence.
@sva that guy changed his ways after murdering 2 people while free and god knows how many while in prison.He only stepped up when members of the brotherhood themselves were targeted.Btw you do not get to the leadership of the arian brotherhood by jaiwalking.It is blood in blood out.
c. another prisoner claims you're in a prison gang d. They run out of space for new people e. You rub an officer the wrong way
offer evidence.i offered you evidence.The website that you linked offered only theoretical situations not one example.Show me a real situation where a criminal when to solitary when another inmate claimed that he was a gang memeber.There are none.Cause for you to be identified as a gang memeber you need to: a)have gang tatoos b)hang out with people form a certain gang.There is a special division in each penitenciary especially in california who deals with gang identification/gang tatoos. b)does assaulting an officer with a shank or putting memebers of your gang who are free to kill his family or throwing urine at him enters the category of "rubbing the wrong way"?
@Plansix and everybody else who thinks solitary is not deserved
try to apply high human principles to a real situation.Answer me this question please:
You are the manager of a prison.In your prison there are dozens of people convicted for life for things such as murders/rapes etc walking the same corridors and the same meal halls with prisoners in for tax evasion.One day a life convcted inmate assaults with a shank another inmate.What do you do with the assailant?Even if you give him more years it doesnt matter cause he already has life.You can't execute him cause his actions do not require the death sentence.What do you do?And I want a practical answer.
I do not disagree with the use of solitary for prisoners they cannot control or who cause problems/are violent. The problem in this case is that it is OVER used. The prisons in California are so overcrowded that that the guards cannot control the population, so they use solitary in an to bring the population under control, which cases it to be over used.
Once again, you are arguing about the practice of using solitary, which is not the true discussion. The problem in California is that 30k prisoners in separate prisons decided to go on a hunger strike because California sucks at running prisons and has for 10 years.
I have just red the New York Times article.Apparently the warden of the prison already released low level offenders.And the hunger strike was started by a few people at pelican Bay,a supermax prison designed to house "the worst of the worst" notorious for housing some of the most dangerous gangs in the US.You do not get into peican bay for swearing in the church and you do not get in solitary confinement in pelican bay for jaywalking.the people there have probably commited many murders.I would not be surprised if the hunger strikers were all gang members.
You can not release gang memebrs into the streets.Nor can you build hundreds of new prisons to accomodate an increasing number of offenders.The bottom line is the honest hardworking citizens must be protected from criminals.And there is also a saying:"don't do the crime if ya can't do the time".the gang leaders who are in solitary confinemnt at Pelican Bay should of tought about that before ordering murders,kidnaps,ransoms,robberies etc
The court ordered the state to release 30K prisoners, of which they have released 10K. Also, it points out that 10,000 inmates are being held in solitary confinement(in 2011, when the ruling came down). There is no way that all 10,000 inmates needed to be there.
Also, I read the article you cited and this quote was at the end:
“Officials have this bunker mentality, but now it’s like a house of cards is falling down,” Ms. Strickman said. “There have been so many problems for decades, and now they are being forced to deal with them all at once.”
California has had this problem for over 10 years and had not addressed it. They have not complied with the order from the Supreme Court and have not worked to address the issue. They imprison to many people and don't know how to fix the problem because it would cost money.
This has nothing to do with how bad the inmates are. It has do with the fact that California fucking sucks at running prisons and refuses to fix the problem. So now the problem is front and center and there is nothing they can do.
Stop straw manning, its not working and you are just pointing out how little you know about what is going on.
Defense lawyers use big words to defend they clients.And you still haven't provided me with an example of someone unlawfully sentenced to solitary.Now you switched the discussion to overcrowding which is an issue but one witohut any cheap sollution.The only sollution is: 1..Build more expensive prisons for which the state has no money to build and maintain
Btw if your sollution to the issue is releasing 20k dangerous offenders after they robbed/killed and god knows what they did to innocent people then you aren't living in california or you need a reality check.20k people do not get in jail for nothing.The only ones who will suffer form their release are the honest citizens who will have to deal with them on the streets
"Defense lawyers use big words..." are you kidding me?
Its not a solution, it is an order from the Supreme court of the United States, stating that the practices of the state of California are illegal under the constitution of the United States. They must release 20K inmates or be at risk of action by the Federal Government.
Once again, California is notorious in this country for having poor prison practices, including over use of solitary confinement. This is nothing new and they have had the problem for decades. Just because you claim that everything they are doing is justified does not mean its true. All evidence shows otherwise, since they have been informed for 10 years to get their shit together.
Who cares..they are in Prison. Solitary is far from torture. I am sick and tired of hearing of "Prisoners" rights. They forfeited their rights when they chose to break the law and violate someone else's rights. This country is too damn soft and it is why our prison population is exploding. Prison should be the most miserable place on earth that people should want to go out of their way to avoid being sent there. Our prisoners want to bitch about how bad they have it? Let them spend some time in a turkish or russian prison. They will be Begging to be allowed to come back to our comfortable prisons with AC, Cable TV, Free College Education, Gyms and three quality meals a day.
On July 12 2013 00:32 theking1 wrote: Westside!! I can not believe how many people are defending career criminals here on this forum.You guys do realize that MOST of the people in the California penitenciary system are members of some criminal orgnization such as The bloods,Crips,Arian Brotherhood,Mexiacan Mafia,MS13, 18th street gangmSurenos,Skinheads,Noestra Familia,Latin Kings,Vice Lords,Drug Cartels etc.These are people who either commited dozens of murders and would slice you for a bag of Marijuana.It is litterally impossible to survive in a west coast penitenciarry without being gang affiliated.Thise people ar e not in there for fun.In fact judges in Cali give very light jail sentences for the sole reason of overpopulation of the penitenciarry system.MOST of the poeple in there are cold blooded murders who would kill you and your family for 100$.
And btw regarding solitary confinment i saw many people here lying that you can get to solitary for nothing.Wrong.You go to solitary for things such as contraband,assaulting an officer,assaulting other inmates etc.In other words they ar ein solitary to protect other inmates and guards from being murdered.If you guys want more background of what happens in Cali prisons check out Lockdownraw or the natgeographic documentaries on youtube.
These people are in solitary cuase they are a threat to the other inmates.You would not want to be in prison for tax evasion and be in a cell with a member of theArian Bortherhood who would kill you for not being th eright skin color.
@plexa your arguments work well with small time criminals.Here we are talking about life long gangbangers who kill and die for their gang,The ones that escape the gang do that due to their own will and after spending decade sin jail.DO not try and confuse a low time criminal with a killer from ms13.
30K is a lot of people. I am going to assume that there are all sorts of criminals in the California prision system. Also, that system is known for being terrible. They were recently ordered by the Supreme Court to either release some inmates or build more prisions. This was after 10 years of litigation involving over crowding due to the state's inability to fund their prisions correctly. They were ordered over and over to comply and stop the overcrowding. California just ignored the orders until the Supreme Court finally had to rule on it and step in.
This is nothing new, California sucks as running prisions. They have for a long time. They refuse to spend money on them or reform their pratices and we will hear more of this in the future until someone deals with the issue.
You are right about the conditions but they should have thought about that before commiting heinous crimes The article is about solitary confinement prisoners.You land in solitary confinement if you a)get caught with contraband b)assault a guard or another inmate it is preety unfair for a guy who is in jail for not paying his taxes to be in the same cell with another inmate convicted for life for murder who can basicly murder him rape him at his own will without anything happening to him.That is what solitary confinement is for.To protect the regular criminals form the monsters.If you are in jail for life you can do what you want and not give a damn cause they can not add anything to your sentence.
@sva that guy changed his ways after murdering 2 people while free and god knows how many while in prison.He only stepped up when members of the brotherhood themselves were targeted.Btw you do not get to the leadership of the arian brotherhood by jaiwalking.It is blood in blood out.
c. another prisoner claims you're in a prison gang d. They run out of space for new people e. You rub an officer the wrong way
offer evidence.i offered you evidence.The website that you linked offered only theoretical situations not one example.Show me a real situation where a criminal when to solitary when another inmate claimed that he was a gang memeber.There are none.Cause for you to be identified as a gang memeber you need to: a)have gang tatoos b)hang out with people form a certain gang.There is a special division in each penitenciary especially in california who deals with gang identification/gang tatoos. b)does assaulting an officer with a shank or putting memebers of your gang who are free to kill his family or throwing urine at him enters the category of "rubbing the wrong way"?
@Plansix and everybody else who thinks solitary is not deserved
try to apply high human principles to a real situation.Answer me this question please:
You are the manager of a prison.In your prison there are dozens of people convicted for life for things such as murders/rapes etc walking the same corridors and the same meal halls with prisoners in for tax evasion.One day a life convcted inmate assaults with a shank another inmate.What do you do with the assailant?Even if you give him more years it doesnt matter cause he already has life.You can't execute him cause his actions do not require the death sentence.What do you do?And I want a practical answer.
I do not disagree with the use of solitary for prisoners they cannot control or who cause problems/are violent. The problem in this case is that it is OVER used. The prisons in California are so overcrowded that that the guards cannot control the population, so they use solitary in an to bring the population under control, which cases it to be over used.
Once again, you are arguing about the practice of using solitary, which is not the true discussion. The problem in California is that 30k prisoners in separate prisons decided to go on a hunger strike because California sucks at running prisons and has for 10 years.
they have good lawyers and most of them know the penal code better than the lawyers themselves.If they were actually mistreated they would sue the state for millions of dollars and win.They should have thought about bad conditions before mudering innocents/raping innocent women or robbing innocent people.
On July 12 2013 00:32 theking1 wrote: Westside!! I can not believe how many people are defending career criminals here on this forum.You guys do realize that MOST of the people in the California penitenciary system are members of some criminal orgnization such as The bloods,Crips,Arian Brotherhood,Mexiacan Mafia,MS13, 18th street gangmSurenos,Skinheads,Noestra Familia,Latin Kings,Vice Lords,Drug Cartels etc.These are people who either commited dozens of murders and would slice you for a bag of Marijuana.It is litterally impossible to survive in a west coast penitenciarry without being gang affiliated.Thise people ar e not in there for fun.In fact judges in Cali give very light jail sentences for the sole reason of overpopulation of the penitenciarry system.MOST of the poeple in there are cold blooded murders who would kill you and your family for 100$.
And btw regarding solitary confinment i saw many people here lying that you can get to solitary for nothing.Wrong.You go to solitary for things such as contraband,assaulting an officer,assaulting other inmates etc.In other words they ar ein solitary to protect other inmates and guards from being murdered.If you guys want more background of what happens in Cali prisons check out Lockdownraw or the natgeographic documentaries on youtube.
These people are in solitary cuase they are a threat to the other inmates.You would not want to be in prison for tax evasion and be in a cell with a member of theArian Bortherhood who would kill you for not being th eright skin color.
@plexa your arguments work well with small time criminals.Here we are talking about life long gangbangers who kill and die for their gang,The ones that escape the gang do that due to their own will and after spending decade sin jail.DO not try and confuse a low time criminal with a killer from ms13.
30K is a lot of people. I am going to assume that there are all sorts of criminals in the California prision system. Also, that system is known for being terrible. They were recently ordered by the Supreme Court to either release some inmates or build more prisions. This was after 10 years of litigation involving over crowding due to the state's inability to fund their prisions correctly. They were ordered over and over to comply and stop the overcrowding. California just ignored the orders until the Supreme Court finally had to rule on it and step in.
This is nothing new, California sucks as running prisions. They have for a long time. They refuse to spend money on them or reform their pratices and we will hear more of this in the future until someone deals with the issue.
You are right about the conditions but they should have thought about that before commiting heinous crimes The article is about solitary confinement prisoners.You land in solitary confinement if you a)get caught with contraband b)assault a guard or another inmate it is preety unfair for a guy who is in jail for not paying his taxes to be in the same cell with another inmate convicted for life for murder who can basicly murder him rape him at his own will without anything happening to him.That is what solitary confinement is for.To protect the regular criminals form the monsters.If you are in jail for life you can do what you want and not give a damn cause they can not add anything to your sentence.
@sva that guy changed his ways after murdering 2 people while free and god knows how many while in prison.He only stepped up when members of the brotherhood themselves were targeted.Btw you do not get to the leadership of the arian brotherhood by jaiwalking.It is blood in blood out.
c. another prisoner claims you're in a prison gang d. They run out of space for new people e. You rub an officer the wrong way
offer evidence.i offered you evidence.The website that you linked offered only theoretical situations not one example.Show me a real situation where a criminal when to solitary when another inmate claimed that he was a gang memeber.There are none.Cause for you to be identified as a gang memeber you need to: a)have gang tatoos b)hang out with people form a certain gang.There is a special division in each penitenciary especially in california who deals with gang identification/gang tatoos. b)does assaulting an officer with a shank or putting memebers of your gang who are free to kill his family or throwing urine at him enters the category of "rubbing the wrong way"?
@Plansix and everybody else who thinks solitary is not deserved
try to apply high human principles to a real situation.Answer me this question please:
You are the manager of a prison.In your prison there are dozens of people convicted for life for things such as murders/rapes etc walking the same corridors and the same meal halls with prisoners in for tax evasion.One day a life convcted inmate assaults with a shank another inmate.What do you do with the assailant?Even if you give him more years it doesnt matter cause he already has life.You can't execute him cause his actions do not require the death sentence.What do you do?And I want a practical answer.
I do not disagree with the use of solitary for prisoners they cannot control or who cause problems/are violent. The problem in this case is that it is OVER used. The prisons in California are so overcrowded that that the guards cannot control the population, so they use solitary in an to bring the population under control, which cases it to be over used.
Once again, you are arguing about the practice of using solitary, which is not the true discussion. The problem in California is that 30k prisoners in separate prisons decided to go on a hunger strike because California sucks at running prisons and has for 10 years.
I have just red the New York Times article.Apparently the warden of the prison already released low level offenders.And the hunger strike was started by a few people at pelican Bay,a supermax prison designed to house "the worst of the worst" notorious for housing some of the most dangerous gangs in the US.You do not get into peican bay for swearing in the church and you do not get in solitary confinement in pelican bay for jaywalking.the people there have probably commited many murders.I would not be surprised if the hunger strikers were all gang members.
You can not release gang memebrs into the streets.Nor can you build hundreds of new prisons to accomodate an increasing number of offenders.The bottom line is the honest hardworking citizens must be protected from criminals.And there is also a saying:"don't do the crime if ya can't do the time".the gang leaders who are in solitary confinemnt at Pelican Bay should of tought about that before ordering murders,kidnaps,ransoms,robberies etc
The court ordered the state to release 30K prisoners, of which they have released 10K. Also, it points out that 10,000 inmates are being held in solitary confinement(in 2011, when the ruling came down). There is no way that all 10,000 inmates needed to be there.
Also, I read the article you cited and this quote was at the end:
“Officials have this bunker mentality, but now it’s like a house of cards is falling down,” Ms. Strickman said. “There have been so many problems for decades, and now they are being forced to deal with them all at once.”
California has had this problem for over 10 years and had not addressed it. They have not complied with the order from the Supreme Court and have not worked to address the issue. They imprison to many people and don't know how to fix the problem because it would cost money.
This has nothing to do with how bad the inmates are. It has do with the fact that California fucking sucks at running prisons and refuses to fix the problem. So now the problem is front and center and there is nothing they can do.
Stop straw manning, its not working and you are just pointing out how little you know about what is going on.
Defense lawyers use big words to defend they clients.And you still haven't provided me with an example of someone unlawfully sentenced to solitary.Now you switched the discussion to overcrowding which is an issue but one witohut any cheap sollution.The only sollution is: 1..Build more expensive prisons for which the state has no money to build and maintain
Btw if your sollution to the issue is releasing 20k dangerous offenders after they robbed/killed and god knows what they did to innocent people then you aren't living in california or you need a reality check.20k people do not get in jail for nothing.The only ones who will suffer form their release are the honest citizens who will have to deal with them on the streets
It shouldn't need to be said, but the argument isn't to release them from solitary to the public, it's to release them from solitary into regular prison. Newsflash: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMnk7lh9M3o The Philippines only imprison professional dancers, as illustrated in this documentary.
Sometimes I forget than i am on a sc2 forum........ The discussion with Plasix revolved aroud the 30k prisoners being release from prison into freedom by the supreme court,according to the ny times article which he attached.But hey who reads nowadays anyways.And the fact that someone is dancing in prison doesn't excuse the fact that they murdered to get there.You would be surprised that a lot of inmates included murderers/rapists/pedophiles/thieves/robbers have passtimes including painting/singing/writing.that does not make their crimes even less hideous.
I see you already started trolling with images and funny videos.Unless you actually have some arguments and facts like people sent to solitary for nothing and why is it good to release 30k inmates please refrain form discussing with me.My head is exploding.
@PLasix
Ok.California prisons have bad conditions.Actually they have better conditions that 99% of prisons on the planet except maybe some Northern European ones but who cares.Do you agree with 30k inmates being freed?Honestly.Do you think that a honest California resident should put up with more than 20k inmates who most likely will return to their life of crime.What about the victims of their innitial crimes.Do not they deserve justice?Where is the justice of the victims?
On July 12 2013 00:32 theking1 wrote: Westside!! I can not believe how many people are defending career criminals here on this forum.You guys do realize that MOST of the people in the California penitenciary system are members of some criminal orgnization such as The bloods,Crips,Arian Brotherhood,Mexiacan Mafia,MS13, 18th street gangmSurenos,Skinheads,Noestra Familia,Latin Kings,Vice Lords,Drug Cartels etc.These are people who either commited dozens of murders and would slice you for a bag of Marijuana.It is litterally impossible to survive in a west coast penitenciarry without being gang affiliated.Thise people ar e not in there for fun.In fact judges in Cali give very light jail sentences for the sole reason of overpopulation of the penitenciarry system.MOST of the poeple in there are cold blooded murders who would kill you and your family for 100$.
And btw regarding solitary confinment i saw many people here lying that you can get to solitary for nothing.Wrong.You go to solitary for things such as contraband,assaulting an officer,assaulting other inmates etc.In other words they ar ein solitary to protect other inmates and guards from being murdered.If you guys want more background of what happens in Cali prisons check out Lockdownraw or the natgeographic documentaries on youtube.
These people are in solitary cuase they are a threat to the other inmates.You would not want to be in prison for tax evasion and be in a cell with a member of theArian Bortherhood who would kill you for not being th eright skin color.
@plexa your arguments work well with small time criminals.Here we are talking about life long gangbangers who kill and die for their gang,The ones that escape the gang do that due to their own will and after spending decade sin jail.DO not try and confuse a low time criminal with a killer from ms13.
30K is a lot of people. I am going to assume that there are all sorts of criminals in the California prision system. Also, that system is known for being terrible. They were recently ordered by the Supreme Court to either release some inmates or build more prisions. This was after 10 years of litigation involving over crowding due to the state's inability to fund their prisions correctly. They were ordered over and over to comply and stop the overcrowding. California just ignored the orders until the Supreme Court finally had to rule on it and step in.
This is nothing new, California sucks as running prisions. They have for a long time. They refuse to spend money on them or reform their pratices and we will hear more of this in the future until someone deals with the issue.
You are right about the conditions but they should have thought about that before commiting heinous crimes The article is about solitary confinement prisoners.You land in solitary confinement if you a)get caught with contraband b)assault a guard or another inmate it is preety unfair for a guy who is in jail for not paying his taxes to be in the same cell with another inmate convicted for life for murder who can basicly murder him rape him at his own will without anything happening to him.That is what solitary confinement is for.To protect the regular criminals form the monsters.If you are in jail for life you can do what you want and not give a damn cause they can not add anything to your sentence.
@sva that guy changed his ways after murdering 2 people while free and god knows how many while in prison.He only stepped up when members of the brotherhood themselves were targeted.Btw you do not get to the leadership of the arian brotherhood by jaiwalking.It is blood in blood out.
c. another prisoner claims you're in a prison gang d. They run out of space for new people e. You rub an officer the wrong way
offer evidence.i offered you evidence.The website that you linked offered only theoretical situations not one example.Show me a real situation where a criminal when to solitary when another inmate claimed that he was a gang memeber.There are none.Cause for you to be identified as a gang memeber you need to: a)have gang tatoos b)hang out with people form a certain gang.There is a special division in each penitenciary especially in california who deals with gang identification/gang tatoos. b)does assaulting an officer with a shank or putting memebers of your gang who are free to kill his family or throwing urine at him enters the category of "rubbing the wrong way"?
@Plansix and everybody else who thinks solitary is not deserved
try to apply high human principles to a real situation.Answer me this question please:
You are the manager of a prison.In your prison there are dozens of people convicted for life for things such as murders/rapes etc walking the same corridors and the same meal halls with prisoners in for tax evasion.One day a life convcted inmate assaults with a shank another inmate.What do you do with the assailant?Even if you give him more years it doesnt matter cause he already has life.You can't execute him cause his actions do not require the death sentence.What do you do?And I want a practical answer.
I do not disagree with the use of solitary for prisoners they cannot control or who cause problems/are violent. The problem in this case is that it is OVER used. The prisons in California are so overcrowded that that the guards cannot control the population, so they use solitary in an to bring the population under control, which cases it to be over used.
Once again, you are arguing about the practice of using solitary, which is not the true discussion. The problem in California is that 30k prisoners in separate prisons decided to go on a hunger strike because California sucks at running prisons and has for 10 years.
they have good lawyers and most of them know the penal code better than the lawyers themselves.If they were actually mistreated they would sue the state for millions of dollars and win.They should have thought about bad conditions before mudering innocents/raping innocent women or robbing innocent people.
On July 12 2013 02:18 theking1 wrote:
On July 12 2013 02:11 Plansix wrote:
On July 12 2013 02:01 theking1 wrote:
On July 12 2013 01:41 Plansix wrote:
On July 12 2013 01:29 theking1 wrote:
On July 12 2013 01:19 Jormundr wrote:
On July 12 2013 01:12 theking1 wrote:
On July 12 2013 00:58 Plansix wrote: [quote] 30K is a lot of people. I am going to assume that there are all sorts of criminals in the California prision system. Also, that system is known for being terrible. They were recently ordered by the Supreme Court to either release some inmates or build more prisions. This was after 10 years of litigation involving over crowding due to the state's inability to fund their prisions correctly. They were ordered over and over to comply and stop the overcrowding. California just ignored the orders until the Supreme Court finally had to rule on it and step in.
This is nothing new, California sucks as running prisions. They have for a long time. They refuse to spend money on them or reform their pratices and we will hear more of this in the future until someone deals with the issue.
You are right about the conditions but they should have thought about that before commiting heinous crimes The article is about solitary confinement prisoners.You land in solitary confinement if you a)get caught with contraband b)assault a guard or another inmate it is preety unfair for a guy who is in jail for not paying his taxes to be in the same cell with another inmate convicted for life for murder who can basicly murder him rape him at his own will without anything happening to him.That is what solitary confinement is for.To protect the regular criminals form the monsters.If you are in jail for life you can do what you want and not give a damn cause they can not add anything to your sentence.
@sva that guy changed his ways after murdering 2 people while free and god knows how many while in prison.He only stepped up when members of the brotherhood themselves were targeted.Btw you do not get to the leadership of the arian brotherhood by jaiwalking.It is blood in blood out.
c. another prisoner claims you're in a prison gang d. They run out of space for new people e. You rub an officer the wrong way
offer evidence.i offered you evidence.The website that you linked offered only theoretical situations not one example.Show me a real situation where a criminal when to solitary when another inmate claimed that he was a gang memeber.There are none.Cause for you to be identified as a gang memeber you need to: a)have gang tatoos b)hang out with people form a certain gang.There is a special division in each penitenciary especially in california who deals with gang identification/gang tatoos. b)does assaulting an officer with a shank or putting memebers of your gang who are free to kill his family or throwing urine at him enters the category of "rubbing the wrong way"?
@Plansix and everybody else who thinks solitary is not deserved
try to apply high human principles to a real situation.Answer me this question please:
You are the manager of a prison.In your prison there are dozens of people convicted for life for things such as murders/rapes etc walking the same corridors and the same meal halls with prisoners in for tax evasion.One day a life convcted inmate assaults with a shank another inmate.What do you do with the assailant?Even if you give him more years it doesnt matter cause he already has life.You can't execute him cause his actions do not require the death sentence.What do you do?And I want a practical answer.
I do not disagree with the use of solitary for prisoners they cannot control or who cause problems/are violent. The problem in this case is that it is OVER used. The prisons in California are so overcrowded that that the guards cannot control the population, so they use solitary in an to bring the population under control, which cases it to be over used.
Once again, you are arguing about the practice of using solitary, which is not the true discussion. The problem in California is that 30k prisoners in separate prisons decided to go on a hunger strike because California sucks at running prisons and has for 10 years.
I have just red the New York Times article.Apparently the warden of the prison already released low level offenders.And the hunger strike was started by a few people at pelican Bay,a supermax prison designed to house "the worst of the worst" notorious for housing some of the most dangerous gangs in the US.You do not get into peican bay for swearing in the church and you do not get in solitary confinement in pelican bay for jaywalking.the people there have probably commited many murders.I would not be surprised if the hunger strikers were all gang members.
You can not release gang memebrs into the streets.Nor can you build hundreds of new prisons to accomodate an increasing number of offenders.The bottom line is the honest hardworking citizens must be protected from criminals.And there is also a saying:"don't do the crime if ya can't do the time".the gang leaders who are in solitary confinemnt at Pelican Bay should of tought about that before ordering murders,kidnaps,ransoms,robberies etc
The court ordered the state to release 30K prisoners, of which they have released 10K. Also, it points out that 10,000 inmates are being held in solitary confinement(in 2011, when the ruling came down). There is no way that all 10,000 inmates needed to be there.
Also, I read the article you cited and this quote was at the end:
“Officials have this bunker mentality, but now it’s like a house of cards is falling down,” Ms. Strickman said. “There have been so many problems for decades, and now they are being forced to deal with them all at once.”
California has had this problem for over 10 years and had not addressed it. They have not complied with the order from the Supreme Court and have not worked to address the issue. They imprison to many people and don't know how to fix the problem because it would cost money.
This has nothing to do with how bad the inmates are. It has do with the fact that California fucking sucks at running prisons and refuses to fix the problem. So now the problem is front and center and there is nothing they can do.
Stop straw manning, its not working and you are just pointing out how little you know about what is going on.
Defense lawyers use big words to defend they clients.And you still haven't provided me with an example of someone unlawfully sentenced to solitary.Now you switched the discussion to overcrowding which is an issue but one witohut any cheap sollution.The only sollution is: 1..Build more expensive prisons for which the state has no money to build and maintain
Btw if your sollution to the issue is releasing 20k dangerous offenders after they robbed/killed and god knows what they did to innocent people then you aren't living in california or you need a reality check.20k people do not get in jail for nothing.The only ones who will suffer form their release are the honest citizens who will have to deal with them on the streets
It shouldn't need to be said, but the argument isn't to release them from solitary to the public, it's to release them from solitary into regular prison. Newsflash: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMnk7lh9M3o The Philippines only imprison professional dancers, as illustrated in this documentary.
Sometimes I forget than i am on a sc2 forum........ The discussion with Plasix revolved aroud the 30k prisoners being release from prison into freedom by the supreme court,according to the ny times article which he attached.But hey who reads nowadays anyways.And the fact that someone is dancing in prison doesn't excuse the fact that they murdered to get there.You would be surprised that a lot of inmates included murderers/rapists/pedophiles/thieves/robbers have passtimes including painting/singing/writing.that does not make their crimes even less hideous.
I see you already started trolling with images and funny videos.Unless you actually have some arguments and facts like people sent to solitary for nothing and why is it good to release 30k inmates please refrain form discussing with me.My head is exploding.
It doesn't matter if its good, the Supreme Court ruled its illegal for the state to keep prisoners in overcrowded prisons. They were ordered to release them. This is after 10 years of being ordered to do so by other courts. Recently, they filed for a stay of the order, because they haven't released anyone yet, because they don't know how. I know this is weird, but when the highest court in the country orders a state that they are violating the US constitution, that's super fucking bad.
Not all the people in the prisons are murders, like you claim. Some of them are in there for drug offenses or stealing, breaking an entering or they are mentally ill.
The simple fact is the California prison system sucks and their prisoner are protesting that it sucks.
On July 12 2013 02:37 theking1 wrote:
@PLasix
Ok.California prisons have bad conditions.Actually they have better conditions that 99% of prisons on the planet except maybe some Northern European ones but who cares.Do you agree with 30k inmates being freed?Honestly.Do you think that a honest California resident should put up with more than 20k inmates who most likely will return to their life of crime.What about the victims of their innitial crimes.Do not they deserve justice?Where is the justice of the victims?
They imprison over 138,000 people in California. They can find 20k non-violent offenders to release. And we don't care about the rest of the planet, only about the standards of our own prisons. We are not in charge of reforming prisons in other countries, only our own.
As for justice for the victims, it is meaningless if we degrade ourselves by treating or prisoners worse than we would treat a cow.
On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote: This country is too damn soft and it is why our prison population is exploding.
That doesn't logically follow. Our country has some of the harshest penalties in the civilized world and we've mostly been increasing them in the past 40 years (other than death sentence)
On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote: They will be Begging to be allowed to come back to our comfortable prisons with AC, Cable TV, Free College Education, Gyms and three quality meals a day
w/ regards to solitary confinement. I don't think solitary is a bad idea as a punitive measure, but the way the US deals w/ solitary is absolutely ridiculous and torture. Due to the overcrowded prison system, solitary is now used to vacate cell rooms temporarily for new prisoners awaiting trial. It's a random system designed to increase the number of actual jail cells in a prison, and is not being used the way it was originally intended.
What the prisoners are striking for is in my opinion legit. Solitary Confinement IS a terrible thing and while people are in prison for a reason, it does not mean they deserve to be tormented in such a way. Solitary Confinement leaves way to much long-term damage and leads to nothing. If these prisoners are supposed to enter society once again this whole solitary confinement is counterproductive.
On July 12 2013 02:47 czylu wrote: w/ regards to solitary confinement. I don't think solitary is a bad idea as a punitive measure, but the way the US deals w/ solitary is absolutely ridiculous and torture. Due to the overcrowded prison system, solitary is now used to vacate cell rooms temporarily for new prisoners awaiting trial. It's a random system designed to increase the number of actual jail cells in a prison, and is not being used the way it was originally intended.
And don't forget suicide watch. What sense does it make to put someone already mentally afflicted and place them in an environment likely to exacerbate the problem?
On July 12 2013 02:02 Dubhghall wrote: Their human rights aren't being violated here, they are given food, water, and shelter. They just want better conditions that they have been given to them. They have broken the rules of society and are paying the price. If they don't want to eat then that is their choice, they offered them the food and they refused it. Overcrowding is a problem in CA prisons, however that doesn't mean that they deserve better conditions for being criminals.
God damn how ignorant can one post be?
We don't allow for the torture of war criminals or PoW's. How the fuck is it acceptable to violate this basic human rights with civilians?
On July 12 2013 02:02 Dubhghall wrote: Their human rights aren't being violated here, they are given food, water, and shelter. They just want better conditions that they have been given to them. They have broken the rules of society and are paying the price. If they don't want to eat then that is their choice, they offered them the food and they refused it. Overcrowding is a problem in CA prisons, however that doesn't mean that they deserve better conditions for being criminals.
God damn how ignorant can one post be?
We don't allow for the torture of war criminals or PoW's. How the fuck is it acceptable to violate this basic human rights with civilians?
Yeah, people like to skip that argument that we wouldn't treat POWs that way, but for some reason its ok if it our own people, so long as they are a drug deal.
On July 12 2013 02:02 Dubhghall wrote: Their human rights aren't being violated here, they are given food, water, and shelter. They just want better conditions that they have been given to them. They have broken the rules of society and are paying the price. If they don't want to eat then that is their choice, they offered them the food and they refused it. Overcrowding is a problem in CA prisons, however that doesn't mean that they deserve better conditions for being criminals.
God damn how ignorant can one post be?
We don't allow for the torture of war criminals or PoW's. How the fuck is it acceptable to violate this basic human rights with civilians?
Yeah, people like to skip that argument that we wouldn't treat POWs that way, but for some reason its ok if it our own people, so long as they are a drug deal.
And remember that you can be a drug dealer even if there is no evidence you deal drugs!
On July 12 2013 02:02 Dubhghall wrote: Their human rights aren't being violated here, they are given food, water, and shelter. They just want better conditions that they have been given to them. They have broken the rules of society and are paying the price. If they don't want to eat then that is their choice, they offered them the food and they refused it. Overcrowding is a problem in CA prisons, however that doesn't mean that they deserve better conditions for being criminals.
God damn how ignorant can one post be?
We don't allow for the torture of war criminals or PoW's. How the fuck is it acceptable to violate this basic human rights with civilians?
Yeah, people like to skip that argument that we wouldn't treat POWs that way, but for some reason its ok if it our own people, so long as they are a drug deal.
And remember that you can be a drug dealer even if there is no evidence you deal drugs!
Lol, damn auto correct. It should have known I wanted Drug Dealer.
im amazed how many people are in prison in the state of californa, given the population of 32 million it's a lot actually, even if those 30k striking were the only ones you had.
How many prisoners are there in total in the state of california?
On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote: Who cares..they are in Prison. Solitary is far from torture. I am sick and tired of hearing of "Prisoners" rights. They forfeited their rights when they chose to break the law and violate someone else's rights. This country is too damn soft and it is why our prison population is exploding. Prison should be the most miserable place on earth that people should want to go out of their way to avoid being sent there. Our prisoners want to bitch about how bad they have it? Let them spend some time in a turkish or russian prison. They will be Begging to be allowed to come back to our comfortable prisons with AC, Cable TV, Free College Education, Gyms and three quality meals a day.
from my point of view there's basicly 2 options here, which is cutting it short really badly but you'll see my point:
People who do stuff that isn't that bad: Make it whatever you want. Not paying taxes, drugs, something not violent in general. Those kind of people, imo, don't deserve to live in hell, not even for a short amount of time and you should especially focus on resocializing those people because it's highly likely that it's easy to do. And yes they usually don't end up living in hell because like everyone mentioned, those are the people who don't end up behaving badly in prison.
People who do stuff that's really bad: Now this is probably the more interesting group because they're being violent and a danger to society. However, the point is that behavior that brings them into this group isn't rational to begin with. It may be caused by panic, it may be caused by mental illness it may be cause by whatever but it is most certainly not a rational consideration before the act happens. Do you really think a scared teenager with a gun thinks about the consequences of his actions when shit's going down RIGHT THIS moment? Replace the scared teenager with anyone, let it be a guy in a gang, because I think most people are scared when they're lifes are in danger, no matter why. Do you really think a crack addict thinks about anything other than his next fix? Seems unlikely to me.
The reason I'm making these 2 groups is: Group 1 might act in a rational way. A guy not paying his taxes most certainly did think about his actions beforehand and came to a conclusion about wether he should do it or not. To those people however the frightening factor doesn't apply to begin with (or shouldn't), so it's a moot point. Group 2 consists of people who usually act in panic, in a hurry or in some other way that involves them not thinking about what they're doing while doing it. So you're point is moot again. They might be the target of those more cruel measurements that are supposed to frighten people and therefore prevent stuff from happening but it doesn't work if the targeted set of people isn't rationally thinking in the first place.
So either way you look at it. Your suggestion really does three things (imo): 1) perform revenge 2) increase the chances of people to behave in a violent way in the future, endagering pretty much everyone 3) increase the cost for prisons because people who are more likely to misbehave in the future are more likely to end up in prison again and again and again.
Now is revenge really worth that?
TL;dr: You work under the assumption that people who murder, rape and whatever else are rationally thinking about their actions beforehand and carefully weigh both sides, so we should give them a reason that will make them less likely to do bad things, namely, fear of prisons. That kind of reasoning is flawed because your innitial assumption that they're thinking rationally is (usually) wrong while giving all kinds of negative setbacks for pretty much everyone.
On July 12 2013 03:16 Cele wrote: im amazed how many people are in prison in the state of californa, given the population of 32 million it's a lot actually, even if those 30k striking were the only ones you had.
How many prisoners are there in total in the state of california?
140,000 or so. Its a huge number and they used to have 6% of their population in prisions.
On July 12 2013 03:16 Cele wrote: im amazed how many people are in prison in the state of californa, given the population of 32 million it's a lot actually, even if those 30k striking were the only ones you had.
How many prisoners are there in total in the state of california?
On July 12 2013 03:16 Cele wrote: im amazed how many people are in prison in the state of californa, given the population of 32 million it's a lot actually, even if those 30k striking were the only ones you had.
How many prisoners are there in total in the state of california?
For comparison, in germany we had 71k inmates in 2012. But thats for a population of 82 Million. That's roughly 1 per 1000 people. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafvollzug
On July 12 2013 03:16 Cele wrote: im amazed how many people are in prison in the state of californa, given the population of 32 million it's a lot actually, even if those 30k striking were the only ones you had.
How many prisoners are there in total in the state of california?
So to be clear, California inprisions more people than the entire country of Germany, that has sever times the population. Because California is dumb and bad at jail.
On July 12 2013 03:16 Cele wrote: im amazed how many people are in prison in the state of californa, given the population of 32 million it's a lot actually, even if those 30k striking were the only ones you had.
How many prisoners are there in total in the state of california?
So to be clear, California inprisions more people than the entire country of Germany, that has sever times the population. Because California is dumb and bad at jail.
Not California. We as a country have ~5% of the world population. We have 23% of the world's prison population.
On July 12 2013 03:16 Cele wrote: im amazed how many people are in prison in the state of californa, given the population of 32 million it's a lot actually, even if those 30k striking were the only ones you had.
How many prisoners are there in total in the state of california?
So to be clear, California inprisions more people than the entire country of Germany, that has sever times the population. Because California is dumb and bad at jail.
In principle Europe is safe form gun and gang violence given the fact that most western europeans have a high standard of living and police deal with violent crimes very dearly.For example even in Romania which is no way as developed as Germany you can serve 6 months for throwing a punch at someone.Also the police cracks down on criminal gangs very swiftly.there are roughly gangs in ROmania larger than 30 individuals.Only place in Europe I heard is more dangerous is southern Itlay with the Camora/COsa Nostra etc.California is ok just the fact that criminals in the USA are a bit smarter and have more freedoms than those in the EU.Also the eu police form different states collaborate very well with one another.
On July 12 2013 03:16 Cele wrote: im amazed how many people are in prison in the state of californa, given the population of 32 million it's a lot actually, even if those 30k striking were the only ones you had.
How many prisoners are there in total in the state of california?
So to be clear, California inprisions more people than the entire country of Germany, that has sever times the population. Because California is dumb and bad at jail.
But they deserve it because they are evil and it is Justified to torture all of them... It's the christian thing to do. In god we trust.
Seriously this is the issue with our prisons. Solitary is justified as a last resort for the worst worst prisoner, and I don't think anyone will disagree with that. But the way it's being handled here in my home state is just disgusting. I almost got thrown in jail once, because I had a ticket that was unpaid that I didn't even know I had. (yes jail isn't prison, and prison isn't solitary.. relax)
It's only going to get worse as our education is plumeting in certain area's. Our drop out rate is growing in lower income area's and statisticly speaking 95% of black men who drop out get incarcerated.
On July 12 2013 03:16 Cele wrote: im amazed how many people are in prison in the state of californa, given the population of 32 million it's a lot actually, even if those 30k striking were the only ones you had.
How many prisoners are there in total in the state of california?
So to be clear, California inprisions more people than the entire country of Germany, that has sever times the population. Because California is dumb and bad at jail.
In principle Europe is safe form gun and gang violence given the fact that most western europeans have a high standard of living and police deal with violent crimes very dearly.For example even in Romania which is no way as developed as Germany you can serve 6 months for throwing a punch at someone.Also the police cracks down on criminal gangs very swiftly.there are roughly gangs in ROmania larger than 30 individuals.Only place in Europe I heard is more dangerous is southern Itlay with the Camora/COsa Nostra etc.California is ok just the fact that criminals in the USA are a bit smarter and have more freedoms than those in the EU.Also the eu police form different states collaborate very well with one another.
That doesnt' change the fact that the US is bad at jail. We have 23% of the worlds prision population. We are just flat out bad at it, which is why we have these problems.
Also, our people are not more violent that other areas of the world, we just jail people for crimes that are likely not worthy of jail time.
On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote: This country is too damn soft and it is why our prison population is exploding.
That doesn't logically follow. Our country has some of the harshest penalties in the civilized world and we've mostly been increasing them in the past 40 years (other than death sentence)
On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote: They will be Begging to be allowed to come back to our comfortable prisons with AC, Cable TV, Free College Education, Gyms and three quality meals a day
2) length of term has nothing to do with the penalty. Going to prison in most instances in America is a Far cry from most other countries. Perhaps you should actually look at the prison conditions overseas before decrying our resorts as terrible.
3) Apparently Texas is the only one doing it right.
Once again, number of inmates has Zero to do with prison conditions. Conditions over here are a far cry better. If anything the fact that we imprison far more people then Russia should tell you just how much of a "Threat" our prisons aren't.
On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote: This country is too damn soft and it is why our prison population is exploding.
That doesn't logically follow. Our country has some of the harshest penalties in the civilized world and we've mostly been increasing them in the past 40 years (other than death sentence)
On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote: They will be Begging to be allowed to come back to our comfortable prisons with AC, Cable TV, Free College Education, Gyms and three quality meals a day
2) length of term has nothing to do with the penalty. Going to prison in most instances in America is a Far cry from most other countries. Perhaps you should actually look at the prison conditions overseas before decrying our resorts as terrible.
3) Apparently Texas is the only one doing it right.
Once again, number of inmates has Zero to do with prison conditions. Conditions over here are a far cry better. If anything the fact that we imprison far more people then Russia should tell you just how much of a "Threat" our prisons aren't.
Um....the Supreme Court of the United States disagrees with you. They ordered that the conditions were inhumain due to the number of inmates.
On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote: This country is too damn soft and it is why our prison population is exploding.
That doesn't logically follow. Our country has some of the harshest penalties in the civilized world and we've mostly been increasing them in the past 40 years (other than death sentence)
On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote: They will be Begging to be allowed to come back to our comfortable prisons with AC, Cable TV, Free College Education, Gyms and three quality meals a day
2) length of term has nothing to do with the penalty. Going to prison in most instances in America is a Far cry from most other countries. Perhaps you should actually look at the prison conditions overseas before decrying our resorts as terrible.
3) Apparently Texas is the only one doing it right.
Once again, number of inmates has Zero to do with prison conditions. Conditions over here are a far cry better. If anything the fact that we imprison far more people then Russia should tell you just how much of a "Threat" our prisons aren't.
You are, quite frankly, clueless. Want to know the difference between the US and countries with much, much lower rates of re-offending criminals? Nicer prisons and better systems for rehabilitation.
The severity of penalty is not a deterrent in the slightest.
On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote: This country is too damn soft and it is why our prison population is exploding.
That doesn't logically follow. Our country has some of the harshest penalties in the civilized world and we've mostly been increasing them in the past 40 years (other than death sentence)
On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote: They will be Begging to be allowed to come back to our comfortable prisons with AC, Cable TV, Free College Education, Gyms and three quality meals a day
2) length of term has nothing to do with the penalty. Going to prison in most instances in America is a Far cry from most other countries. Perhaps you should actually look at the prison conditions overseas before decrying our resorts as terrible.
3) Apparently Texas is the only one doing it right.
Once again, number of inmates has Zero to do with prison conditions. Conditions over here are a far cry better. If anything the fact that we imprison far more people then Russia should tell you just how much of a "Threat" our prisons aren't.
1. You're smart. What is generally considered inhumane even for animals is quite all right for human beings? Thanks for the info! 2. Show me a comparable country where they imprison as many people and treat them worse than us.
Far cry better than where? China? Russia? North Korea? "Guys it's ok, we're not quite the shittiest legal/prison system in the world."
On July 12 2013 03:16 Cele wrote: im amazed how many people are in prison in the state of californa, given the population of 32 million it's a lot actually, even if those 30k striking were the only ones you had.
How many prisoners are there in total in the state of california?
So to be clear, California inprisions more people than the entire country of Germany, that has sever times the population. Because California is dumb and bad at jail.
In principle Europe is safe form gun and gang violence given the fact that most western europeans have a high standard of living and police deal with violent crimes very dearly.For example even in Romania which is no way as developed as Germany you can serve 6 months for throwing a punch at someone.Also the police cracks down on criminal gangs very swiftly.there are roughly gangs in ROmania larger than 30 individuals.Only place in Europe I heard is more dangerous is southern Itlay with the Camora/COsa Nostra etc.California is ok just the fact that criminals in the USA are a bit smarter and have more freedoms than those in the EU.Also the eu police form different states collaborate very well with one another.
That doesnt' change the fact that the US is bad at jail. We have 23% of the worlds prision population. We are just flat out bad at it, which is why we have these problems.
Also, our people are not more violent that other areas of the world, we just jail people for crimes that are likely not worthy of jail time.
Having a large jail population doesnt mean being bad at jail it means the justice system aka judges send a lot of people to jail.Also I did not say americans are more violent that Europeans but that in USA gangs such as MS13,Arian Brotherhood,Bloods, Crips, commit more violent crimes than their European equivalents.USA suffers also from a very large territory and understaffed police which means criminals in certian areas can roam free.In Europe due to the small size of european countries police can prevent crime a lot faster than in the US and also through other legal means.For example in the EU if you assemble about 40 individuals and start comiting crime be sure the police will harrass you and put you under preventive arrest even if they do not have any hard evidence but there is some evidence that you are commiting crime.
On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote: This country is too damn soft and it is why our prison population is exploding.
That doesn't logically follow. Our country has some of the harshest penalties in the civilized world and we've mostly been increasing them in the past 40 years (other than death sentence)
On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote: They will be Begging to be allowed to come back to our comfortable prisons with AC, Cable TV, Free College Education, Gyms and three quality meals a day
2) length of term has nothing to do with the penalty. Going to prison in most instances in America is a Far cry from most other countries. Perhaps you should actually look at the prison conditions overseas before decrying our resorts as terrible.
3) Apparently Texas is the only one doing it right.
Once again, number of inmates has Zero to do with prison conditions. Conditions over here are a far cry better. If anything the fact that we imprison far more people then Russia should tell you just how much of a "Threat" our prisons aren't.
You are, quite frankly, clueless. Want to know the difference between the US and countries with much, much lower rates of re-offending criminals? Nicer prisons and better systems for rehabilitation.
The severity of penalty is not a deterrent in the slightest.
It's been proved over and over again that Severity of penalty is not a deterrent at all. Please don't compare our prisons to other prisons because frankily this discussion isn't about other prisons and how other countries do it. And if you are going to do that, at least do some research first. There are many prison's around the world where trying to escape is not a crime, and succeding to escape is not a crime as long as you return the clothes.....
Try something like that in San Quentan, and you will be shot down dead on the spot.
On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote: This country is too damn soft and it is why our prison population is exploding.
That doesn't logically follow. Our country has some of the harshest penalties in the civilized world and we've mostly been increasing them in the past 40 years (other than death sentence)
On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote: They will be Begging to be allowed to come back to our comfortable prisons with AC, Cable TV, Free College Education, Gyms and three quality meals a day
2) length of term has nothing to do with the penalty. Going to prison in most instances in America is a Far cry from most other countries. Perhaps you should actually look at the prison conditions overseas before decrying our resorts as terrible.
3) Apparently Texas is the only one doing it right.
Once again, number of inmates has Zero to do with prison conditions. Conditions over here are a far cry better. If anything the fact that we imprison far more people then Russia should tell you just how much of a "Threat" our prisons aren't.
You are, quite frankly, clueless. Want to know the difference between the US and countries with much, much lower rates of re-offending criminals? Nicer prisons and better systems for rehabilitation.
The severity of penalty is not a deterrent in the slightest.
It's been proved over and over again that Severity of penalty is not a deterrent at all. Please don't compare our prisons to other prisons because frankily this discussion isn't about other prisons and how other countries do it. And if you are going to do that, at least do some research first. There are many prison's around the world where trying to escape is not a crime, and succeding to escape is not a crime as long as you return the clothes.....
Try something like that in San Quentan, and you will be shot down dead on the spot.
....I'm trying to look for the point in your post, but I don't see it anywhere.
On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote: This country is too damn soft and it is why our prison population is exploding.
That doesn't logically follow. Our country has some of the harshest penalties in the civilized world and we've mostly been increasing them in the past 40 years (other than death sentence)
On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote: They will be Begging to be allowed to come back to our comfortable prisons with AC, Cable TV, Free College Education, Gyms and three quality meals a day
2) length of term has nothing to do with the penalty. Going to prison in most instances in America is a Far cry from most other countries. Perhaps you should actually look at the prison conditions overseas before decrying our resorts as terrible.
3) Apparently Texas is the only one doing it right.
Once again, number of inmates has Zero to do with prison conditions. Conditions over here are a far cry better. If anything the fact that we imprison far more people then Russia should tell you just how much of a "Threat" our prisons aren't.
You are, quite frankly, clueless. Want to know the difference between the US and countries with much, much lower rates of re-offending criminals? Nicer prisons and better systems for rehabilitation.
The severity of penalty is not a deterrent in the slightest.
It's been proved over and over again that Severity of penalty is not a deterrent at all. Please don't compare our prisons to other prisons because frankily this discussion isn't about other prisons and how other countries do it. And if you are going to do that, at least do some research first. There are many prison's around the world where trying to escape is not a crime, and succeding to escape is not a crime as long as you return the clothes.....
Try something like that in San Quentan, and you will be shot down dead on the spot.
....I'm trying to look for the point in your post, but I don't see it anywhere.
I ment to quote the person you quoted, but you don't have to be a dick about.....
On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote: This country is too damn soft and it is why our prison population is exploding.
That doesn't logically follow. Our country has some of the harshest penalties in the civilized world and we've mostly been increasing them in the past 40 years (other than death sentence)
On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote: They will be Begging to be allowed to come back to our comfortable prisons with AC, Cable TV, Free College Education, Gyms and three quality meals a day
2) length of term has nothing to do with the penalty. Going to prison in most instances in America is a Far cry from most other countries. Perhaps you should actually look at the prison conditions overseas before decrying our resorts as terrible.
3) Apparently Texas is the only one doing it right.
Once again, number of inmates has Zero to do with prison conditions. Conditions over here are a far cry better. If anything the fact that we imprison far more people then Russia should tell you just how much of a "Threat" our prisons aren't.
You are, quite frankly, clueless. Want to know the difference between the US and countries with much, much lower rates of re-offending criminals? Nicer prisons and better systems for rehabilitation.
The severity of penalty is not a deterrent in the slightest.
It's been proved over and over again that Severity of penalty is not a deterrent at all. Please don't compare our prisons to other prisons because frankily this discussion isn't about other prisons and how other countries do it. And if you are going to do that, at least do some research first. There are many prison's around the world where trying to escape is not a crime, and succeding to escape is not a crime as long as you return the clothes.....
Try something like that in San Quentan, and you will be shot down dead on the spot.
Actually you would be surprised but even in countries which are considered to have the best prisons in the world criminals are complaining.For example Anders Brevik the mass murderer who killed about 77 people in Norway is complaining about the conditions in Norwegian prisons and those are considered to be some of the best in the world and Norway has some of the strictest laws regarding human rights.
From the article breivik is complaining that "his cofee is being served cold" and he doe not have enough "butter on his bread".And this is coming of a guy who murderer 77 people.And btw breivik lives alone in a cell with 3 rooms.It is very hard to satisfy criminals these days
Hopefully something comes of it. We have thousands of inmates who don't deserve to be in prison to begin with and our prison system is a joke focused on punishment over rehabilitation. Our inmates come out of prison worse people than when they went in in many cases. It's counterproductive.
On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote: This country is too damn soft and it is why our prison population is exploding.
That doesn't logically follow. Our country has some of the harshest penalties in the civilized world and we've mostly been increasing them in the past 40 years (other than death sentence)
On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote: They will be Begging to be allowed to come back to our comfortable prisons with AC, Cable TV, Free College Education, Gyms and three quality meals a day
2) length of term has nothing to do with the penalty. Going to prison in most instances in America is a Far cry from most other countries. Perhaps you should actually look at the prison conditions overseas before decrying our resorts as terrible.
3) Apparently Texas is the only one doing it right.
Once again, number of inmates has Zero to do with prison conditions. Conditions over here are a far cry better. If anything the fact that we imprison far more people then Russia should tell you just how much of a "Threat" our prisons aren't.
You are, quite frankly, clueless. Want to know the difference between the US and countries with much, much lower rates of re-offending criminals? Nicer prisons and better systems for rehabilitation.
The severity of penalty is not a deterrent in the slightest.
It's been proved over and over again that Severity of penalty is not a deterrent at all. Please don't compare our prisons to other prisons because frankily this discussion isn't about other prisons and how other countries do it. And if you are going to do that, at least do some research first. There are many prison's around the world where trying to escape is not a crime, and succeding to escape is not a crime as long as you return the clothes.....
Try something like that in San Quentan, and you will be shot down dead on the spot.
Actually you would be surprised but even in countries which are considered to have the best prisons in the world criminals are complaining.For example Anders Brevik the mass murderer who killed about 77 people in Norway is complaining about the conditions in Norwegian prisons and those are considered to be some of the best in the world and Norway has some of the strictest laws regarding human rights.
From the article breivik is complaining that "his cofee is being served cold" and he doe not have enough "butter on his bread".And this is coming of a guy who murderer 77 people.And btw breivik lives alone in a cell with 3 rooms.It is very hard to satisfy criminals these days
I'm not surprised, and I wouldn't expect anything different. I'm not saying we should satisfy prisoners.... But what is happening in California is fucking wrong..
On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote: This country is too damn soft and it is why our prison population is exploding.
That doesn't logically follow. Our country has some of the harshest penalties in the civilized world and we've mostly been increasing them in the past 40 years (other than death sentence)
On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote: They will be Begging to be allowed to come back to our comfortable prisons with AC, Cable TV, Free College Education, Gyms and three quality meals a day
2) length of term has nothing to do with the penalty. Going to prison in most instances in America is a Far cry from most other countries. Perhaps you should actually look at the prison conditions overseas before decrying our resorts as terrible.
3) Apparently Texas is the only one doing it right.
Once again, number of inmates has Zero to do with prison conditions. Conditions over here are a far cry better. If anything the fact that we imprison far more people then Russia should tell you just how much of a "Threat" our prisons aren't.
You are, quite frankly, clueless. Want to know the difference between the US and countries with much, much lower rates of re-offending criminals? Nicer prisons and better systems for rehabilitation.
The severity of penalty is not a deterrent in the slightest.
It's been proved over and over again that Severity of penalty is not a deterrent at all. Please don't compare our prisons to other prisons because frankily this discussion isn't about other prisons and how other countries do it. And if you are going to do that, at least do some research first. There are many prison's around the world where trying to escape is not a crime, and succeding to escape is not a crime as long as you return the clothes.....
Try something like that in San Quentan, and you will be shot down dead on the spot.
Actually you would be surprised but even in countries which are considered to have the best prisons in the world criminals are complaining.For example Anders Brevik the mass murderer who killed about 77 people in Norway is complaining about the conditions in Norwegian prisons and those are considered to be some of the best in the world and Norway has some of the strictest laws regarding human rights.
From the article breivik is complaining that "his cofee is being served cold" and he doe not have enough "butter on his bread".And this is coming of a guy who murderer 77 people.And btw breivik lives alone in a cell with 3 rooms.It is very hard to satisfy criminals these days
Cute anecdote, but it doesn't remotely reflect on the prison system or the effectiveness of the prison.
On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote: This country is too damn soft and it is why our prison population is exploding.
That doesn't logically follow. Our country has some of the harshest penalties in the civilized world and we've mostly been increasing them in the past 40 years (other than death sentence)
On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote: They will be Begging to be allowed to come back to our comfortable prisons with AC, Cable TV, Free College Education, Gyms and three quality meals a day
2) length of term has nothing to do with the penalty. Going to prison in most instances in America is a Far cry from most other countries. Perhaps you should actually look at the prison conditions overseas before decrying our resorts as terrible.
3) Apparently Texas is the only one doing it right.
Once again, number of inmates has Zero to do with prison conditions. Conditions over here are a far cry better. If anything the fact that we imprison far more people then Russia should tell you just how much of a "Threat" our prisons aren't.
You are, quite frankly, clueless. Want to know the difference between the US and countries with much, much lower rates of re-offending criminals? Nicer prisons and better systems for rehabilitation.
The severity of penalty is not a deterrent in the slightest.
It's been proved over and over again that Severity of penalty is not a deterrent at all. Please don't compare our prisons to other prisons because frankily this discussion isn't about other prisons and how other countries do it. And if you are going to do that, at least do some research first. There are many prison's around the world where trying to escape is not a crime, and succeding to escape is not a crime as long as you return the clothes.....
Try something like that in San Quentan, and you will be shot down dead on the spot.
Actually you would be surprised but even in countries which are considered to have the best prisons in the world criminals are complaining.For example Anders Brevik the mass murderer who killed about 77 people in Norway is complaining about the conditions in Norwegian prisons and those are considered to be some of the best in the world and Norway has some of the strictest laws regarding human rights.
From the article breivik is complaining that "his cofee is being served cold" and he doe not have enough "butter on his bread".And this is coming of a guy who murderer 77 people.And btw breivik lives alone in a cell with 3 rooms.It is very hard to satisfy criminals these days
Cute anecdote, but it doesn't remotely reflect on the prison system or the effectiveness of the prison.
77 dead people,hundreds of their beloved ones suffering,a country in mourning and you consider it an anecdote.it proves that no matter the severity of the crime criminals will always want lesser punishment.
On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote: This country is too damn soft and it is why our prison population is exploding.
That doesn't logically follow. Our country has some of the harshest penalties in the civilized world and we've mostly been increasing them in the past 40 years (other than death sentence)
On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote: They will be Begging to be allowed to come back to our comfortable prisons with AC, Cable TV, Free College Education, Gyms and three quality meals a day
2) length of term has nothing to do with the penalty. Going to prison in most instances in America is a Far cry from most other countries. Perhaps you should actually look at the prison conditions overseas before decrying our resorts as terrible.
3) Apparently Texas is the only one doing it right.
Once again, number of inmates has Zero to do with prison conditions. Conditions over here are a far cry better. If anything the fact that we imprison far more people then Russia should tell you just how much of a "Threat" our prisons aren't.
You are, quite frankly, clueless. Want to know the difference between the US and countries with much, much lower rates of re-offending criminals? Nicer prisons and better systems for rehabilitation.
The severity of penalty is not a deterrent in the slightest.
It's been proved over and over again that Severity of penalty is not a deterrent at all. Please don't compare our prisons to other prisons because frankily this discussion isn't about other prisons and how other countries do it. And if you are going to do that, at least do some research first. There are many prison's around the world where trying to escape is not a crime, and succeding to escape is not a crime as long as you return the clothes.....
Try something like that in San Quentan, and you will be shot down dead on the spot.
Actually you would be surprised but even in countries which are considered to have the best prisons in the world criminals are complaining.For example Anders Brevik the mass murderer who killed about 77 people in Norway is complaining about the conditions in Norwegian prisons and those are considered to be some of the best in the world and Norway has some of the strictest laws regarding human rights.
From the article breivik is complaining that "his cofee is being served cold" and he doe not have enough "butter on his bread".And this is coming of a guy who murderer 77 people.And btw breivik lives alone in a cell with 3 rooms.It is very hard to satisfy criminals these days
Cute anecdote, but it doesn't remotely reflect on the prison system or the effectiveness of the prison.
77 dead people,hundreds of their beloved ones suffering,a country in mourning and you consider it an anecdote.it proves that no matter the severity of the crime criminals will always want lesser punishment.
So you're saying because one single man is an unjustified whiner means that everyone who ever whines about prison treatment does not have a point?
On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote: This country is too damn soft and it is why our prison population is exploding.
That doesn't logically follow. Our country has some of the harshest penalties in the civilized world and we've mostly been increasing them in the past 40 years (other than death sentence)
On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote: They will be Begging to be allowed to come back to our comfortable prisons with AC, Cable TV, Free College Education, Gyms and three quality meals a day
2) length of term has nothing to do with the penalty. Going to prison in most instances in America is a Far cry from most other countries. Perhaps you should actually look at the prison conditions overseas before decrying our resorts as terrible.
3) Apparently Texas is the only one doing it right.
Once again, number of inmates has Zero to do with prison conditions. Conditions over here are a far cry better. If anything the fact that we imprison far more people then Russia should tell you just how much of a "Threat" our prisons aren't.
You are, quite frankly, clueless. Want to know the difference between the US and countries with much, much lower rates of re-offending criminals? Nicer prisons and better systems for rehabilitation.
The severity of penalty is not a deterrent in the slightest.
It's been proved over and over again that Severity of penalty is not a deterrent at all. Please don't compare our prisons to other prisons because frankily this discussion isn't about other prisons and how other countries do it. And if you are going to do that, at least do some research first. There are many prison's around the world where trying to escape is not a crime, and succeding to escape is not a crime as long as you return the clothes.....
Try something like that in San Quentan, and you will be shot down dead on the spot.
Actually you would be surprised but even in countries which are considered to have the best prisons in the world criminals are complaining.For example Anders Brevik the mass murderer who killed about 77 people in Norway is complaining about the conditions in Norwegian prisons and those are considered to be some of the best in the world and Norway has some of the strictest laws regarding human rights.
From the article breivik is complaining that "his cofee is being served cold" and he doe not have enough "butter on his bread".And this is coming of a guy who murderer 77 people.And btw breivik lives alone in a cell with 3 rooms.It is very hard to satisfy criminals these days
Cute anecdote, but it doesn't remotely reflect on the prison system or the effectiveness of the prison.
77 dead people,hundreds of their beloved ones suffering,a country in mourning and you consider it an anecdote.it proves that no matter the severity of the crime criminals will always want lesser punishment.
This guy has nothing to do with the hungery strike or the topic at hand. That is why the evidence is anecdote and useless.
im pretty sure that they only get put in confinement either for 1) their own safety if they request it 2) if they are violent in prison towards other inmates or guards and break rules
sry but there are a lot of normal non-violent offenders in prison and they should not have to constantly worry for their safety because insane / violent people should have some "right" to be among normal population. every1 has that right but then when they go and do something STUPID is when they give up that right. if u prove to be violent inside prison itself u should be put in solitary until you are deemed safe to mingle with other ppl.
also one other thing is EVERY1 bitches about the "prison guard union" this and that how they are ripping off taxpayers....sry BUT NO PPL it is one of the most DANGEROUS and WORST jobs you could possibly have. constantly dealing with insane violent people that have NOTHING to lose (the ones on death row or life sentence). constantly exposed to stuff like HIV or hepatitus. they deserve every cent if not more considering how much ppl like certain celebrities make for not doing anything useful for society.
On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote: This country is too damn soft and it is why our prison population is exploding.
That doesn't logically follow. Our country has some of the harshest penalties in the civilized world and we've mostly been increasing them in the past 40 years (other than death sentence)
On July 12 2013 02:33 Dekoth wrote: They will be Begging to be allowed to come back to our comfortable prisons with AC, Cable TV, Free College Education, Gyms and three quality meals a day
2) length of term has nothing to do with the penalty. Going to prison in most instances in America is a Far cry from most other countries. Perhaps you should actually look at the prison conditions overseas before decrying our resorts as terrible.
3) Apparently Texas is the only one doing it right.
Once again, number of inmates has Zero to do with prison conditions. Conditions over here are a far cry better. If anything the fact that we imprison far more people then Russia should tell you just how much of a "Threat" our prisons aren't.
You are, quite frankly, clueless. Want to know the difference between the US and countries with much, much lower rates of re-offending criminals? Nicer prisons and better systems for rehabilitation.
The severity of penalty is not a deterrent in the slightest.
It's been proved over and over again that Severity of penalty is not a deterrent at all. Please don't compare our prisons to other prisons because frankily this discussion isn't about other prisons and how other countries do it. And if you are going to do that, at least do some research first. There are many prison's around the world where trying to escape is not a crime, and succeding to escape is not a crime as long as you return the clothes.....
Try something like that in San Quentan, and you will be shot down dead on the spot.
Actually you would be surprised but even in countries which are considered to have the best prisons in the world criminals are complaining.For example Anders Brevik the mass murderer who killed about 77 people in Norway is complaining about the conditions in Norwegian prisons and those are considered to be some of the best in the world and Norway has some of the strictest laws regarding human rights.
From the article breivik is complaining that "his cofee is being served cold" and he doe not have enough "butter on his bread".And this is coming of a guy who murderer 77 people.And btw breivik lives alone in a cell with 3 rooms.It is very hard to satisfy criminals these days
Cute anecdote, but it doesn't remotely reflect on the prison system or the effectiveness of the prison.
77 dead people,hundreds of their beloved ones suffering,a country in mourning and you consider it an anecdote.it proves that no matter the severity of the crime criminals will always want lesser punishment.
So you're saying because one single man is an unjustified whiner means that everyone who ever whines about prison treatment does not have a point?
As I said. Cute anecdote, completely irrelevant.
I think your trolling,lack of facts and agressive atitude is completly irrelevant.You do not know what the people in solitarty are being accused of or what deeds they have commited.generally speaking you do not get in a solitary confinement in a supermax without commiting serious violent offenses like murder/drug dealing/armed robbery etc and without assaulting other inamtes or guards.But hey who cares about them right?In case you do not know who started the strike they are inmates form pelican bay a supermax designed to house the worse of the worse. Btw here is who gets sent at pelican bay
Controlling the Grip of Gangs
Outside in the yard, hundreds of prisoners from general population are playing basketball games, exercising and crowding around cement tables. On this day, without exception, every inmate is divided by race — and gang membership.
"You've got your white group there on that one dip bar. You've got your southern (Mexicans) — they're always on that one table. You have your blacks," Lt. Steve Perez says, looking out onto the yard.
Prison officials like Perez say a lot of crimes happen on the yard right in front of them.
"Right now, business is being conducted," Perez says, pointing to the group of prisoners gathered on the yard. "There's gambling that's going on, drugs that are being passed and sold."
Assaults, stabbings and attacks on staff are weekly occurrences here. Two former gang members sit at a table in the yard, long after most other prisons have been sent back inside. They're kept separate because they recently left the gang. Because they fear for their life, they asked that NPR not to use their names.
They say the gangs run the prisons.
"If they keep killing people, you are going to do what they tell you to do — out of fear, out of self-preservation," one of the inmates says. "If you're 90 days at the house, and a gang member tells you, 'You go stab that dude right there,' or 'Go back in and stab your cellie,' out of self-preservation, you are going to do what you are told. Because if you don't, you are going to be killed."
Associate Warden Larry Williams acknowledges that prison gangs are an enormous problem that prison officials do not have control over.
"Every time we pluck one out, a new one pops up," he said.
'There Are Times When You Lose Control'
Officials say 70 percent of the inmates in California's prisons are in some way affiliated with prison gangs.
When asked whether the gangs control Pelican Bay, Williams says: "The biggest part of me wants to say no. But you know, prisons only run with the consent of the inmates — and that's all the inmates. The administration and the officers do have control of the prisons. But there are times when you lose control."
Associate Warden Larry Williams says it has been this way since the 1980s, when the number of inmates exploded, and rehabilitative programs disappeared. The gangs filled the void left from increasingly tense conditions and utter boredom. California's answer to the gangs was, and is, the SHU.
Even locked in isolation, some inmates have managed to find ways to kill each other and assault staff. On a recent afternoon, a half-dozen officers spent an entire day tearing apart the cells in one hallway, searching desperately for a metal binder clip they believed one of the inmates was hiding. Officer Buchanan discovered the paper fastener hidden inside a crack in the concrete wall. It had been sharpened into a deadly razor.
In the cell next door, Sgt. France held up a couple of staples she found.
"They use the staples. They sharpen them to a point, wrap paper around them real tight, and make a spear out of it," France says. "It will go through the perforations on the cell. They can spear someone with it."
Isolation Breeds Deadly Ingenuity
Lt. Steve Perez explains that inmates pull out the elastic from their underwear and braid it into a kind of super-powered bow to fire their weapons.
"They can project a spear coming out of there at 800-square-pounds per foot," Perez said. "And 800 pounds per foot, into your neck, it'll drive that right in there. And now we've got to go in there, and what does he have on it? Does he have feces? HIV? Does he have herpes? TB? Hepatitis? And that's not unusual."
Prison officials say that removing the most dangerous gang members and putting them in segregation makes regular prisons safer for the rest of the inmates — and it weakens the gangs.
But Jim, a 38-year-old SHU inmate from Long Beach, says that's wishful thinking. He says that to gang members, being sent to the secure-housing unit is an honor.
"Coming up here was the big thing," Jim says from inside his cell. "Put in work. Come up here, be with the big homeys. Because this is the only place you're going to be around the fellas, you know."
'You're a Target Because of the Color of Your Skin'
Jim says gang leaders still control the gangs from within the SHU, mostly by mailing each other letters. And he says if you show up to prison and don't join the gang of your race, you'll be a target for the other gangs within days.
"When there's a war, there's a war," Jim says. "You're a target just because of the color of your skin, so you might as well. You're going to have to defend yourself. The lines get divided. You've gotta take sides."
Jim was sent to prison 10 years ago for armed robbery. Several years later, he was put in segregation for assaulting other prisoners when he joined a prison gang called the Nazi Low Riders.
"It's definitely racist," Jim says. But he says he wasn't racist before he came to prison. "Prison made me that way. My mom and dad taught me to respect everybody, no matter who it was. It's funny because I still remember, to this day, my dad telling me, 'You respect every man until he proves differently.'"
Now you understand why these measures are needed?To protect the guards and other inmates from violent offenders.It is very easy to side with murderers simply because they have a louder voice.IHopefully one of the inamtes above gets released and moves to your neighbourhood.
@Plansix
The Brevik thing was a part of a separate argument I was having with sva on another issue.nothing to do with the original article.Please follow the entire discussion and put things into the right context.Thank you.
It boggles my mind that a prisoner, a convict, a criminal, a thief, a rapist, a murderer...would actually expect regular, law-abiding citizens to CARE if they starve!!!!!! They are doing us a favor; just think about how much money that prison saved by not needing to make food for 3 days for that many prisoners. This country is too "forgiving" on its crime. If you are convicted for murder, you should be killed. If you stole something extremely valuable, your hand should be cut off. We dont have strict enough enforcement to encourage people to stop committing crimes.
I heard a joke the other day, and it's probably really old but i dont care: America, the land of the free (with the worlds highest prison population). I thought it was pretty funny.
There is no point keeping solitary confinement in its current state, it only makes things worse. The whole idea of 'prison' should be reworked as far as I am concerned. You are supposed to help these people, not lock them up and make them even more mentally unstable. The way it is now is the easy, but also the most primitive method. It is the way of people who don't want to face the real problems, such as what causes someone to be a psychopath for example, and makes them do the things they do. What is the underlying neurological reason, and is there something we could do about it? The current stance is one that I just can not support.
Now, to what is also shocking : some of these comments I saw by just skimming this thread. + Show Spoiler +
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
On July 11 2013 11:20 a176 wrote: You give them food and a place to sleep. What more do they deserve exactly?
I dont really know what to say to that. Get some better education I suppose?
On July 12 2013 06:09 []Phase[] wrote: There is no point keeping solitary confinement in its current state, it only makes things worse. The whole idea of 'prison' should be reworked as far as I am concerned. You are supposed to help these people, not lock them up and make them even more mentally unstable. The way it is now is the easy, but also the most primitive method. It is the way of people who don't want to face the real problems, such as what causes someone to be a psychopath for example, and makes them do the things they do. What is the underlying neurological reason, and is there something we could do about it? The current stance is one that I just can not support.
Now, to what is also shocking : some of these comments I saw by just skimming this thread. + Show Spoiler +
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
On July 11 2013 11:20 a176 wrote: You give them food and a place to sleep. What more do they deserve exactly?
I dont really know what to say to that. Get some better education I suppose?
Are you serious? Dude, I get told to kill myself at least twice a day by people on league of legends, sc2, facebook, etc. How can anything that someone says be surprising to you at all. I know, maybe you dont live in the real world.
While I don't want to get into the discussion of whether the justice / prison system is "fair" or not, the discussion about human rights of prisoners always strikes me as odd. In particular those who are even at risk of solitary confinement (violent, often repeat offenders) are in prison EXACTLY because they do not respect others' rights. I'm not advocating an eye for an eye policy, but people should be prepared to face consequences of their decisions. The whole point of the prison system is to be uncomfortable and restricting - if it comes to a point where you enjoy the same creature comforts in jail as you would in your daily life (I'm looking at you, Norway), "rehabilitation" just isn't going to happen, at least for some people. Working while in jail shouldn't be optional, either...
On July 12 2013 06:09 []Phase[] wrote: There is no point keeping solitary confinement in its current state, it only makes things worse. The whole idea of 'prison' should be reworked as far as I am concerned. You are supposed to help these people, not lock them up and make them even more mentally unstable. The way it is now is the easy, but also the most primitive method. It is the way of people who don't want to face the real problems, such as what causes someone to be a psychopath for example, and makes them do the things they do. What is the underlying neurological reason, and is there something we could do about it? The current stance is one that I just can not support.
Now, to what is also shocking : some of these comments I saw by just skimming this thread. + Show Spoiler +
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
On July 11 2013 11:20 a176 wrote: You give them food and a place to sleep. What more do they deserve exactly?
I dont really know what to say to that. Get some better education I suppose?
Are you serious? Dude, I get told to kill myself at least twice a day by people on league of legends, sc2, facebook, etc. How can anything that someone says be surprising to you at all. I know, maybe you dont live in the real world.
They do not.Even if I post hundreds of articles saying that most of the california prison system population is gang affiliated theys till do not care.They probably live in a very good neighbourhood,never had to deal with gang violence etc.it is only when someone who breaks into your house and kills your family for just being witness do you realize the animality and cruelty of these individuals who then claim mercy.I saw a homeburglar once in a documentary.he was convicted of robbing and sodomizing about 20 or so families and got like 10 life sentences.When he was asked about it he clamyl admitted to sodomizing his victims by sticking his pistol into their assholes and then drowning them in water.He was so calm you would think he was talking about buying some frosties form the supermarket.In ROmania its the same.Gang of gipsies beat up and kill people them whem you see them on tv you would think they are the most innocent men alive.All accusing the warden of bad treatments,all saying that prison is torture although a coupe of months before they were killing people/robbing houses/raping women without blinking.
On July 12 2013 06:09 []Phase[] wrote: There is no point keeping solitary confinement in its current state, it only makes things worse. The whole idea of 'prison' should be reworked as far as I am concerned. You are supposed to help these people, not lock them up and make them even more mentally unstable. The way it is now is the easy, but also the most primitive method. It is the way of people who don't want to face the real problems, such as what causes someone to be a psychopath for example, and makes them do the things they do. What is the underlying neurological reason, and is there something we could do about it? The current stance is one that I just can not support.
Now, to what is also shocking : some of these comments I saw by just skimming this thread. + Show Spoiler +
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
On July 11 2013 11:20 a176 wrote: You give them food and a place to sleep. What more do they deserve exactly?
I dont really know what to say to that. Get some better education I suppose?
Are you serious? Dude, I get told to kill myself at least twice a day by people on league of legends, sc2, facebook, etc. How can anything that someone says be surprising to you at all. I know, maybe you dont live in the real world.
They do not.Even if I post hundreds of articles saying that most of the california prison system population is gang affiliated theys till do not care.They probably live in a very good neighbourhood,never had to deal with gang violence etc.it is only when someone who breaks into your house and kills your family for just being witness do you realize the animality and cruelty of these individuals who then claim mercy.I saw a homeburglar once in a documentary.he was convicted of robbing and sodomizing about 20 or so families and got like 10 life sentences.When he was asked about it he clamyl admitted to sodomizing his victims by sticking his pistol into their assholes and then drowning them in water.He was so calm you would think he was talking about buying some frosties form the supermarket.In ROmania its the same.Gang of gipsies beat up and kill people them whem you see them on tv you would think they are the most innocent men alive.All accusing the warden of bad treatments,all saying that prison is torture although a coupe of months before they were killing people/robbing houses/raping women without blinking.
So your argument is that the criminals are winning the "who can be the biggest asshole" competition and that we, the law abiding public, need to up our game?
On July 12 2013 06:22 Salazarz wrote: While I don't want to get into the discussion of whether the justice / prison system is "fair" or not, the discussion about human rights of prisoners always strikes me as odd. In particular those who are even at risk of solitary confinement (violent, often repeat offenders) are in prison EXACTLY because they do not respect others' rights. I'm not advocating an eye for an eye policy, but people should be prepared to face consequences of their decisions. The whole point of the prison system is to be uncomfortable and restricting - if it comes to a point where you enjoy the same creature comforts in jail as you would in your daily life (I'm looking at you, Norway), "rehabilitation" just isn't going to happen, at least for some people. Working while in jail shouldn't be optional, either...
if the discussion about human rights of prisoners strikes you as odd, you probably dont understand the concept of human rights.
On July 12 2013 06:22 Salazarz wrote: While I don't want to get into the discussion of whether the justice / prison system is "fair" or not, the discussion about human rights of prisoners always strikes me as odd. In particular those who are even at risk of solitary confinement (violent, often repeat offenders) are in prison EXACTLY because they do not respect others' rights. I'm not advocating an eye for an eye policy, but people should be prepared to face consequences of their decisions. The whole point of the prison system is to be uncomfortable and restricting - if it comes to a point where you enjoy the same creature comforts in jail as you would in your daily life (I'm looking at you, Norway), "rehabilitation" just isn't going to happen, at least for some people. Working while in jail shouldn't be optional, either...
While I think you are still too nice, i can agree with 90% of what you said here. Finally someone that is using some logic.
Also, ask yourself what "human rights" is. Just think about what that entitles. In order for "basic human rights" to exist, that would mean ALL humans in existance will have the SAME basic human rights. Is that the case? Hell no, far from it. Think about those crazy places where you can be killed for not believing in a certain god, or be killed for speaking when a man is speaking, or be fined for having a daughter instead of a son, or COUNTLESS other things that these so called "civilized" countries believe are "basic human rights", that are against the law in certain places on this planet.
Understand this: there is no such thing as a "right". There are only privilages. Your government made a set of laws that prohibbits certain things, and allows certain things, and every government is DIFFERENT (whether by only a little bit, or a complete opposite).
On July 12 2013 06:09 []Phase[] wrote: There is no point keeping solitary confinement in its current state, it only makes things worse. The whole idea of 'prison' should be reworked as far as I am concerned. You are supposed to help these people, not lock them up and make them even more mentally unstable. The way it is now is the easy, but also the most primitive method. It is the way of people who don't want to face the real problems, such as what causes someone to be a psychopath for example, and makes them do the things they do. What is the underlying neurological reason, and is there something we could do about it? The current stance is one that I just can not support.
Now, to what is also shocking : some of these comments I saw by just skimming this thread. + Show Spoiler +
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
On July 11 2013 11:20 a176 wrote: You give them food and a place to sleep. What more do they deserve exactly?
I dont really know what to say to that. Get some better education I suppose?
Are you serious? Dude, I get told to kill myself at least twice a day by people on league of legends, sc2, facebook, etc. How can anything that someone says be surprising to you at all. I know, maybe you dont live in the real world.
They do not.Even if I post hundreds of articles saying that most of the california prison system population is gang affiliated theys till do not care.They probably live in a very good neighbourhood,never had to deal with gang violence etc.it is only when someone who breaks into your house and kills your family for just being witness do you realize the animality and cruelty of these individuals who then claim mercy.I saw a homeburglar once in a documentary.he was convicted of robbing and sodomizing about 20 or so families and got like 10 life sentences.When he was asked about it he clamyl admitted to sodomizing his victims by sticking his pistol into their assholes and then drowning them in water.He was so calm you would think he was talking about buying some frosties form the supermarket.In ROmania its the same.Gang of gipsies beat up and kill people them whem you see them on tv you would think they are the most innocent men alive.All accusing the warden of bad treatments,all saying that prison is torture although a coupe of months before they were killing people/robbing houses/raping women without blinking.
So your argument is that the criminals are winning the "who can be the biggest asshole" competition and that we, the law abiding public, need to up our game?
Really?
No.I am argumenting that once you commit a heinous crime you better be prepared to serve your FULL sentence according to the LAW just like anybody else and not pull cheap stunts like claiming jail is inhumane.Yes once you commit a murder be prepared to serve 25 to life for it .And if you commit a crime in jail aka assault another inmate,shank a guard etc be prepared to serve time in solitary confinement.That is how the LAW is.Solitary confinement is not a sadistical pleasure of the guards but a need to protect the other inmates and the guards themselves form life serving gangbangers who already have multiple life sentences and do not care if they do yoga all day in jail or if they kill 200 inmates.For them it is the same.Notyhing can happen to them.You can not give a guy with multiple life sentences more time.And it is quite funny that after some digging I found out that the individuals that started the strike are in solitary confinement at Pelican bay,a supermax where only the hardest offenders go and where leaders f the arian brotherhood and mexican drug cartels are housed.Also these individuals are there because from jail they have ordered hits outside of prison and a lot of persons have lost their lives.We arent talking about your regular car thief here.We are talking about dudes with multiple bodies on their resume.
No we should not be more badass than them but we need to protect the lawabiding citizens and the less dangerous inmates from the gangbangers who have nothing to lose.Read the article I have provided for more introsepction.Also check out lockup raw on youtube.
On July 12 2013 06:09 []Phase[] wrote: There is no point keeping solitary confinement in its current state, it only makes things worse. The whole idea of 'prison' should be reworked as far as I am concerned. You are supposed to help these people, not lock them up and make them even more mentally unstable. The way it is now is the easy, but also the most primitive method. It is the way of people who don't want to face the real problems, such as what causes someone to be a psychopath for example, and makes them do the things they do. What is the underlying neurological reason, and is there something we could do about it? The current stance is one that I just can not support.
Now, to what is also shocking : some of these comments I saw by just skimming this thread. + Show Spoiler +
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
On July 11 2013 11:20 a176 wrote: You give them food and a place to sleep. What more do they deserve exactly?
I dont really know what to say to that. Get some better education I suppose?
Are you serious? Dude, I get told to kill myself at least twice a day by people on league of legends, sc2, facebook, etc. How can anything that someone says be surprising to you at all. I know, maybe you dont live in the real world.
They do not.Even if I post hundreds of articles saying that most of the california prison system population is gang affiliated theys till do not care.They probably live in a very good neighbourhood,never had to deal with gang violence etc.it is only when someone who breaks into your house and kills your family for just being witness do you realize the animality and cruelty of these individuals who then claim mercy.I saw a homeburglar once in a documentary.he was convicted of robbing and sodomizing about 20 or so families and got like 10 life sentences.When he was asked about it he clamyl admitted to sodomizing his victims by sticking his pistol into their assholes and then drowning them in water.He was so calm you would think he was talking about buying some frosties form the supermarket.In ROmania its the same.Gang of gipsies beat up and kill people them whem you see them on tv you would think they are the most innocent men alive.All accusing the warden of bad treatments,all saying that prison is torture although a coupe of months before they were killing people/robbing houses/raping women without blinking.
So your argument is that the criminals are winning the "who can be the biggest asshole" competition and that we, the law abiding public, need to up our game?
Really?
No.I am argumenting that once you commit a heinous crime you better be prepared to serve your FULL sentence according to the LAW just like anybody else and not pull cheap stunts like claiming jail is inhumane.Yes once you commit a murder be prepared to serve 25 to life for it .And if you commit a crime in jail aka assault another inmate,shank a guard etc be prepared to serve time in solitary confinement.That is how the LAW is.Solitary confinement is not a sadistical pleasure of the guards but a need to protect the other inmates and the guards themselves form life serving gangbangers who already have multiple life sentences and do not care if they do yoga all day in jail or if they kill 200 inmates.For them it is the same.Notyhing can happen to them.You can not give a guy with multiple life sentences more time.And it is quite funny that after some digging I found out that the individuals that started the strike are in solitary confinement at Pelican bay,a supermax where only the hardest offenders go and where leaders f the arian brotherhood and mexican drug cartels are housed.Also these individuals are there because from jail they have ordered hits outside of prison and a lot of persons have lost their lives.We arent talking about your regular car thief here.We are talking about dudes with multiple bodies on their resume.
No we should not be more badass than them but we need to protect the lawabiding citizens and the less dangerous inmates from the gangbangers who have nothing to lose.Read the article I have provided for more introsepction.Also check out lockup raw on youtube.
Yaaaaayyy!! More people with logic behind their thoughts!!!! Not some idiot tree-hugger that thinks we should value all human life!!!
On July 12 2013 06:09 []Phase[] wrote: There is no point keeping solitary confinement in its current state, it only makes things worse. The whole idea of 'prison' should be reworked as far as I am concerned. You are supposed to help these people, not lock them up and make them even more mentally unstable. The way it is now is the easy, but also the most primitive method. It is the way of people who don't want to face the real problems, such as what causes someone to be a psychopath for example, and makes them do the things they do. What is the underlying neurological reason, and is there something we could do about it? The current stance is one that I just can not support.
Now, to what is also shocking : some of these comments I saw by just skimming this thread. + Show Spoiler +
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
On July 11 2013 11:20 a176 wrote: You give them food and a place to sleep. What more do they deserve exactly?
I dont really know what to say to that. Get some better education I suppose?
Are you serious? Dude, I get told to kill myself at least twice a day by people on league of legends, sc2, facebook, etc. How can anything that someone says be surprising to you at all. I know, maybe you dont live in the real world.
They do not.Even if I post hundreds of articles saying that most of the california prison system population is gang affiliated theys till do not care.They probably live in a very good neighbourhood,never had to deal with gang violence etc.it is only when someone who breaks into your house and kills your family for just being witness do you realize the animality and cruelty of these individuals who then claim mercy.I saw a homeburglar once in a documentary.he was convicted of robbing and sodomizing about 20 or so families and got like 10 life sentences.When he was asked about it he clamyl admitted to sodomizing his victims by sticking his pistol into their assholes and then drowning them in water.He was so calm you would think he was talking about buying some frosties form the supermarket.In ROmania its the same.Gang of gipsies beat up and kill people them whem you see them on tv you would think they are the most innocent men alive.All accusing the warden of bad treatments,all saying that prison is torture although a coupe of months before they were killing people/robbing houses/raping women without blinking.
So your argument is that the criminals are winning the "who can be the biggest asshole" competition and that we, the law abiding public, need to up our game?
Really?
No.I am argumenting that once you commit a heinous crime you better be prepared to serve your FULL sentence according to the LAW just like anybody else and not pull cheap stunts like claiming jail is inhumane.Yes once you commit a murder be prepared to serve 25 to life for it .And if you commit a crime in jail aka assault another inmate,shank a guard etc be prepared to serve time in solitary confinement.That is how the LAW is.Solitary confinement is not a sadistical pleasure of the guards but a need to protect the other inmates and the guards themselves form life serving gangbangers who already have multiple life sentences and do not care if they do yoga all day in jail or if they kill 200 inmates.For them it is the same.Notyhing can happen to them.You can not give a guy with multiple life sentences more time.And it is quite funny that after some digging I found out that the individuals that started the strike are in solitary confinement at Pelican bay,a supermax where only the hardest offenders go and where leaders f the arian brotherhood and mexican drug cartels are housed.Also these individuals are there because from jail they have ordered hits outside of prison and a lot of persons have lost their lives.We arent talking about your regular car thief here.We are talking about dudes with multiple bodies on their resume.
No we should not be more badass than them but we need to protect the lawabiding citizens and the less dangerous inmates from the gangbangers who have nothing to lose.Read the article I have provided for more introsepction.Also check out lockup raw on youtube.
You do realize that these protests are due to overuse and lack of proper guidelines on the use of solitary confinement, right?
On July 12 2013 06:22 Salazarz wrote: While I don't want to get into the discussion of whether the justice / prison system is "fair" or not, the discussion about human rights of prisoners always strikes me as odd. In particular those who are even at risk of solitary confinement (violent, often repeat offenders) are in prison EXACTLY because they do not respect others' rights. I'm not advocating an eye for an eye policy, but people should be prepared to face consequences of their decisions. The whole point of the prison system is to be uncomfortable and restricting - if it comes to a point where you enjoy the same creature comforts in jail as you would in your daily life (I'm looking at you, Norway), "rehabilitation" just isn't going to happen, at least for some people. Working while in jail shouldn't be optional, either...
if the discussion about human rights of prisoners strikes you as odd, you probably dont understand the concept of human rights.
I do understand the concept of human rights, I just don't agree on the modern definition of it. If you're a screw-up who destroys lives of other people, you should be happy to have a roof above your head, some kind of food on a plate, and an opportunity to 'rehabilitate' yourself through working - not for your own spending money but for paying off at least a fraction of the costs that are incurred upon the state and its law-abiding citizens as a result of your transgression. I don't know enough about the effects of solitary confinement on human psyche to discuss whether it is appropriate or not - but then again, people aren't sent there just for fun. Why should a prison warden or another, less violent prisoner be endangered in order to respect the 'rights' of someone who has zero respect for the rights of others, and pays no heed to the possible consequences of their actions?
On July 12 2013 06:09 []Phase[] wrote: There is no point keeping solitary confinement in its current state, it only makes things worse. The whole idea of 'prison' should be reworked as far as I am concerned. You are supposed to help these people, not lock them up and make them even more mentally unstable. The way it is now is the easy, but also the most primitive method. It is the way of people who don't want to face the real problems, such as what causes someone to be a psychopath for example, and makes them do the things they do. What is the underlying neurological reason, and is there something we could do about it? The current stance is one that I just can not support.
Now, to what is also shocking : some of these comments I saw by just skimming this thread. + Show Spoiler +
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
On July 11 2013 11:20 a176 wrote: You give them food and a place to sleep. What more do they deserve exactly?
I dont really know what to say to that. Get some better education I suppose?
Are you serious? Dude, I get told to kill myself at least twice a day by people on league of legends, sc2, facebook, etc. How can anything that someone says be surprising to you at all. I know, maybe you dont live in the real world.
They do not.Even if I post hundreds of articles saying that most of the california prison system population is gang affiliated theys till do not care.They probably live in a very good neighbourhood,never had to deal with gang violence etc.it is only when someone who breaks into your house and kills your family for just being witness do you realize the animality and cruelty of these individuals who then claim mercy.I saw a homeburglar once in a documentary.he was convicted of robbing and sodomizing about 20 or so families and got like 10 life sentences.When he was asked about it he clamyl admitted to sodomizing his victims by sticking his pistol into their assholes and then drowning them in water.He was so calm you would think he was talking about buying some frosties form the supermarket.In ROmania its the same.Gang of gipsies beat up and kill people them whem you see them on tv you would think they are the most innocent men alive.All accusing the warden of bad treatments,all saying that prison is torture although a coupe of months before they were killing people/robbing houses/raping women without blinking.
So your argument is that the criminals are winning the "who can be the biggest asshole" competition and that we, the law abiding public, need to up our game?
Really?
No.I am argumenting that once you commit a heinous crime you better be prepared to serve your FULL sentence according to the LAW just like anybody else and not pull cheap stunts like claiming jail is inhumane.Yes once you commit a murder be prepared to serve 25 to life for it .And if you commit a crime in jail aka assault another inmate,shank a guard etc be prepared to serve time in solitary confinement.That is how the LAW is.Solitary confinement is not a sadistical pleasure of the guards but a need to protect the other inmates and the guards themselves form life serving gangbangers who already have multiple life sentences and do not care if they do yoga all day in jail or if they kill 200 inmates.For them it is the same.Notyhing can happen to them.You can not give a guy with multiple life sentences more time.And it is quite funny that after some digging I found out that the individuals that started the strike are in solitary confinement at Pelican bay,a supermax where only the hardest offenders go and where leaders f the arian brotherhood and mexican drug cartels are housed.Also these individuals are there because from jail they have ordered hits outside of prison and a lot of persons have lost their lives.We arent talking about your regular car thief here.We are talking about dudes with multiple bodies on their resume.
No we should not be more badass than them but we need to protect the lawabiding citizens and the less dangerous inmates from the gangbangers who have nothing to lose.Read the article I have provided for more introsepction.Also check out lockup raw on youtube.
You've pulled this out your ass and the reason I know that is because in the topic it explains that the overcrowding of the prisons like this has been declared illegal by the supreme court. What they are serving is not their full sentence but is rather something in addition to their sentence as a result of a fuckup by the state of California which is acting illegally in forcing this upon them. Oddly enough by your reasoning the Californian state government are now also criminals and can therefore be fucked in any way a law abiding citizen sees fit, even if what you're doing to them is illegal, because they're criminals and "FULL SENTENCE".
Your argument isn't an argument, it's barely a string of words. It basically goes that it's fine to illegally do things to prisoners because they broke the law.
On July 12 2013 06:22 Salazarz wrote: While I don't want to get into the discussion of whether the justice / prison system is "fair" or not, the discussion about human rights of prisoners always strikes me as odd. In particular those who are even at risk of solitary confinement (violent, often repeat offenders) are in prison EXACTLY because they do not respect others' rights. I'm not advocating an eye for an eye policy, but people should be prepared to face consequences of their decisions. The whole point of the prison system is to be uncomfortable and restricting - if it comes to a point where you enjoy the same creature comforts in jail as you would in your daily life (I'm looking at you, Norway), "rehabilitation" just isn't going to happen, at least for some people. Working while in jail shouldn't be optional, either...
if the discussion about human rights of prisoners strikes you as odd, you probably dont understand the concept of human rights.
I do understand the concept of human rights, I just don't agree on the modern definition of it. If you're a screw-up who destroys lives of other people, you should be happy to have a roof above your head, some kind of food on a plate, and an opportunity to 'rehabilitate' yourself through working - not for your own spending money but for paying off at least a fraction of the costs that are incurred upon the state and its law-abiding citizens as a result of your transgression. I don't know enough about the effects of solitary confinement on human psyche to discuss whether it is appropriate or not - but then again, people aren't sent there just for fun. Why should a prison warden or another, less violent prisoner be endangered in order to respect the 'rights' of someone who has zero respect for the rights of others, and pays no heed to the possible consequences of their actions?
How can you disagree with an interpretation of human rights by saying it shouldn't apply to all humans? That's just dispensing with the concept of human rights entirely. If you're gonna do that then flat out say it. You can't interpret human rights to deny the rights to people who are human. If you do want to argue against human rights, and your nation has a good history of arguing for why certain groups don't get human rights, then go ahead and actually make an argument for why human rights don't exist.
On July 12 2013 06:09 []Phase[] wrote: There is no point keeping solitary confinement in its current state, it only makes things worse. The whole idea of 'prison' should be reworked as far as I am concerned. You are supposed to help these people, not lock them up and make them even more mentally unstable. The way it is now is the easy, but also the most primitive method. It is the way of people who don't want to face the real problems, such as what causes someone to be a psychopath for example, and makes them do the things they do. What is the underlying neurological reason, and is there something we could do about it? The current stance is one that I just can not support.
Now, to what is also shocking : some of these comments I saw by just skimming this thread. + Show Spoiler +
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
On July 11 2013 11:20 a176 wrote: You give them food and a place to sleep. What more do they deserve exactly?
I dont really know what to say to that. Get some better education I suppose?
Are you serious? Dude, I get told to kill myself at least twice a day by people on league of legends, sc2, facebook, etc. How can anything that someone says be surprising to you at all. I know, maybe you dont live in the real world.
They do not.Even if I post hundreds of articles saying that most of the california prison system population is gang affiliated theys till do not care.They probably live in a very good neighbourhood,never had to deal with gang violence etc.it is only when someone who breaks into your house and kills your family for just being witness do you realize the animality and cruelty of these individuals who then claim mercy.I saw a homeburglar once in a documentary.he was convicted of robbing and sodomizing about 20 or so families and got like 10 life sentences.When he was asked about it he clamyl admitted to sodomizing his victims by sticking his pistol into their assholes and then drowning them in water.He was so calm you would think he was talking about buying some frosties form the supermarket.In ROmania its the same.Gang of gipsies beat up and kill people them whem you see them on tv you would think they are the most innocent men alive.All accusing the warden of bad treatments,all saying that prison is torture although a coupe of months before they were killing people/robbing houses/raping women without blinking.
So your argument is that the criminals are winning the "who can be the biggest asshole" competition and that we, the law abiding public, need to up our game?
Really?
No.I am argumenting that once you commit a heinous crime you better be prepared to serve your FULL sentence according to the LAW just like anybody else and not pull cheap stunts like claiming jail is inhumane.Yes once you commit a murder be prepared to serve 25 to life for it .And if you commit a crime in jail aka assault another inmate,shank a guard etc be prepared to serve time in solitary confinement.That is how the LAW is.Solitary confinement is not a sadistical pleasure of the guards but a need to protect the other inmates and the guards themselves form life serving gangbangers who already have multiple life sentences and do not care if they do yoga all day in jail or if they kill 200 inmates.For them it is the same.Notyhing can happen to them.You can not give a guy with multiple life sentences more time.And it is quite funny that after some digging I found out that the individuals that started the strike are in solitary confinement at Pelican bay,a supermax where only the hardest offenders go and where leaders f the arian brotherhood and mexican drug cartels are housed.Also these individuals are there because from jail they have ordered hits outside of prison and a lot of persons have lost their lives.We arent talking about your regular car thief here.We are talking about dudes with multiple bodies on their resume.
No we should not be more badass than them but we need to protect the lawabiding citizens and the less dangerous inmates from the gangbangers who have nothing to lose.Read the article I have provided for more introsepction.Also check out lockup raw on youtube.
You've pulled this out your ass and the reason I know that is because in the topic it explains that the overcrowding of the prisons like this has been declared illegal by the supreme court. What they are serving is not their full sentence but is rather something in addition to their sentence as a result of a fuckup by the state of California which is acting illegally in forcing this upon them. Oddly enough by your reasoning the Californian state government are now also criminals and can therefore be fucked in any way a law abiding citizen sees fit, even if what you're doing to them is illegal, because they're criminals and "FULL SENTENCE".
Your argument isn't an argument, it's barely a string of words. It basically goes that it's fine to illegally do things to prisoners because they broke the law.
As a mod you should actually read the ny times article.
this what the ny article says about the supreme court decision
California is facing the threat of being charged with contempt of court after a Supreme Court order in May 2011 to reduce its prison population by 10,000 inmates this year. The court said crowding and terrible conditions inside the prison system constituted inhumane treatment in violation of the Eighth Amendment. On Wednesday, the state filed for a stay of the court’s order to release prisoners.
Gov. Jerry Brown has repeatedly said that the state has gone as far as it can to release low-level offenders and reduce crowding at the prisons, and that it is providing adequate medical care for inmates. But last month, a federal judge criticized the system for allowing potentially lethal valley fever to spread through two jails in Central Valley and ordered the state to move 2,600 inmates at risk of catching the disease.
10k inmates and that is it.And already people who have commited crimes have been released.If you feel comfortable with that it is your problem.
What they are serving is not their full sentence but is rather something in addition to their sentence as a result of a fuckup by the state of California which is acting illegally in forcing this upon them
neither the Op nor the original article is saying that.You are just pulling stuff up your ass to make your point.Nowhere in the original article does it say that inmates are serving prolongues sentences.Learn to read.
"Your argument isn't an argument, it's barely a string of words. It basically goes that it's fine to illegally do things to prisoners because they broke the law."
My argument is actually an argument since I provided evidence to back it up.In the new york times article it also states the following which you missed
"A small group of inmates in solitary confinement at the maximum-security Pelican Bay State Prison, in a remote area near the Oregon border, called for the protest months ago. They have complained that inmates are being held in isolation indefinitely for having ties to prison gangs. Some have been held for decades without phone calls, access to rehabilitation programs or time outdoors."
As you may know Pelican Bay is a supermax in the USA where the most violent and dangerous inmates are house.to get there you have to be a criminal/serial rapist/very violent gang memeber.Also to get in solitary confinement there you have to physically assault other inmates or guards aka killing them.i have provided in the last pages countles videos and news articles supporting my claim that the people are in solitary to protect the life of guards and other inmates.If you do not follow the conversation it is your problem not mine. I will post part of it again so you understand which indiviaduls actually started the strike at pelican bay
Controlling the Grip of Gangs
Outside in the yard, hundreds of prisoners from general population are playing basketball games, exercising and crowding around cement tables. On this day, without exception, every inmate is divided by race — and gang membership.
"You've got your white group there on that one dip bar. You've got your southern (Mexicans) — they're always on that one table. You have your blacks," Lt. Steve Perez says, looking out onto the yard.
Prison officials like Perez say a lot of crimes happen on the yard right in front of them.
"Right now, business is being conducted," Perez says, pointing to the group of prisoners gathered on the yard. "There's gambling that's going on, drugs that are being passed and sold."
Assaults, stabbings and attacks on staff are weekly occurrences here. Two former gang members sit at a table in the yard, long after most other prisons have been sent back inside. They're kept separate because they recently left the gang. Because they fear for their life, they asked that NPR not to use their names.
They say the gangs run the prisons.
"If they keep killing people, you are going to do what they tell you to do — out of fear, out of self-preservation," one of the inmates says. "If you're 90 days at the house, and a gang member tells you, 'You go stab that dude right there,' or 'Go back in and stab your cellie,' out of self-preservation, you are going to do what you are told. Because if you don't, you are going to be killed."
Associate Warden Larry Williams acknowledges that prison gangs are an enormous problem that prison officials do not have control over.
"Every time we pluck one out, a new one pops up," he said.
'There Are Times When You Lose Control'
Officials say 70 percent of the inmates in California's prisons are in some way affiliated with prison gangs.
When asked whether the gangs control Pelican Bay, Williams says: "The biggest part of me wants to say no. But you know, prisons only run with the consent of the inmates — and that's all the inmates. The administration and the officers do have control of the prisons. But there are times when you lose control."
Associate Warden Larry Williams says it has been this way since the 1980s, when the number of inmates exploded, and rehabilitative programs disappeared. The gangs filled the void left from increasingly tense conditions and utter boredom. California's answer to the gangs was, and is, the SHU.
Even locked in isolation, some inmates have managed to find ways to kill each other and assault staff. On a recent afternoon, a half-dozen officers spent an entire day tearing apart the cells in one hallway, searching desperately for a metal binder clip they believed one of the inmates was hiding. Officer Buchanan discovered the paper fastener hidden inside a crack in the concrete wall. It had been sharpened into a deadly razor.
In the cell next door, Sgt. France held up a couple of staples she found.
"They use the staples. They sharpen them to a point, wrap paper around them real tight, and make a spear out of it," France says. "It will go through the perforations on the cell. They can spear someone with it."
Isolation Breeds Deadly Ingenuity
Lt. Steve Perez explains that inmates pull out the elastic from their underwear and braid it into a kind of super-powered bow to fire their weapons.
"They can project a spear coming out of there at 800-square-pounds per foot," Perez said. "And 800 pounds per foot, into your neck, it'll drive that right in there. And now we've got to go in there, and what does he have on it? Does he have feces? HIV? Does he have herpes? TB? Hepatitis? And that's not unusual."
Prison officials say that removing the most dangerous gang members and putting them in segregation makes regular prisons safer for the rest of the inmates — and it weakens the gangs.
But Jim, a 38-year-old SHU inmate from Long Beach, says that's wishful thinking. He says that to gang members, being sent to the secure-housing unit is an honor.
"Coming up here was the big thing," Jim says from inside his cell. "Put in work. Come up here, be with the big homeys. Because this is the only place you're going to be around the fellas, you know."
'You're a Target Because of the Color of Your Skin'
Jim says gang leaders still control the gangs from within the SHU, mostly by mailing each other letters. And he says if you show up to prison and don't join the gang of your race, you'll be a target for the other gangs within days.
"When there's a war, there's a war," Jim says. "You're a target just because of the color of your skin, so you might as well. You're going to have to defend yourself. The lines get divided. You've gotta take sides."
Jim was sent to prison 10 years ago for armed robbery. Several years later, he was put in segregation for assaulting other prisoners when he joined a prison gang called the Nazi Low Riders.
"It's definitely racist," Jim says. But he says he wasn't racist before he came to prison. "Prison made me that way. My mom and dad taught me to respect everybody, no matter who it was. It's funny because I still remember, to this day, my dad telling me, 'You respect every man until he proves differently.'"
My point is that although they have human rights the state also has the obligations of protecting other inmates and the guards from them.Get it?There human rights have all been respected under the UN charta.What they are asking for is reduced sentenced which occured as a reuslt of the assaults.You have no idea what crimes those people have commited and why there are in solitary nor can you provide me with a source which shows evidence they are unlawfully there.As far as I know all of them have commited violent crimes and are there according to the law.Btw their victims also had basic humans rights that were actually broken such as the right to live but you do not care about them now do you.
I have edited out the rant where I explained exactly why you're a moron and why your "learn to read" was both idiotic and hypocritical in favour of an actual clarification. The high road as it were.
I didn't write prolonged sentences, I wrote things in addition to their sentence. With this I referred to the use of solitary in ways other than the justice system proscribed. Therefore your suggestion that I learn to read is based upon your misunderstanding resulting from your failure to read, or comprehend, what I wrote. Thanks.
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
They do deserve rights as human beings though.
Exactly. Doesn't mean we can torture people simply because they are in prison.
huh? how is them being on hunger strike, torture?
Am i missing something or are they just complaining because prison is actually reforming them, as in, making them not want to go back because its so shitty?
What they are serving is not their full sentence but is rather something in addition to their sentence as a result of a fuckup by the state of California which is acting illegally in forcing this upon them
neither the Op nor the original article is saying that.You are just pulling stuff up your ass to make your point.Nowhere in the original article does it say that inmates are serving prolongues sentences.Learn to read.
Their full sentence was not X years solitary, they are being given the additional punishment of solitary because the state is unable to actually carry out the sentences the judges are passing down. They are shuffling prisoners through solitary to make room in prison because they are overcrowded and lack the facilities to actually do their jobs. I didn't write prolonged sentences, I wrote things in addition to their sentence. So no, you learn to read because what you wrote, in your barely comprehensible English (honestly it baffles me that you can go "learn to read" when what you write is so littered with spelling errors), in no way responds to what I wrote. You failed to read or understand my point and your conclusion was not the correct one, that you are simply too stupid to understand what I wrote, but rather than I had made an error. I did not. You did. Hopefully that clears it up. Maybe next time you experience confusion upon reading someone else's words make the effort to read them again and check it's not just you being dumb, given what I've seen of your posting so far I think you'll find that quite often it will be.
Oh boy and you are a mod on this website..... You genious you do not get solitary confinement for being a good boy you get it for COMMITING A CRIME BEHIND BARS which is also a crime.Shanking a guard and another inmate isnt a mild offense given to them by the state of California like you make it out to be but a SERIOUS OFFENSE simmilar to stabbing someone on the street.
They are shuffling prisoners through solitary to make room in prison because they are overcrowded and lack the facilities to actually do their jobs.
Where does it say that in the OP or in the linked articles?COme on give me the quote.THERE IS NO QUOTE because it does not say that in the article
So no, you learn to read because what you wrote, in your barely comprehensible English (honestly it baffles me that you can go "learn to read" when what you write is so littered with spelling errors), in no way responds to what I wrote
No you learn to read.i provided quotes form the original article confirming what I say you did not provide non.I am writing and watching the wcs na at the same time.My writing is preety understandable
[quoteMaybe next time you experience confusion upon reading someone else's words make the effort to read them again and check it's not just you being dumb, given what I've seen of your posting so far I think you'll find that quite often it will be][/quote]
Ah it is so easy to abuse your mod and resort to ad hominen although you contribute nothing to this discussion.This website has fallen well behind standards.Luckyly blizzard is doing its own wcs and esports portal soon.And you call yourselves a good website.Bleah.
P.S Deleted your post lol. P.S2 The only MORON here is you
On July 12 2013 06:09 []Phase[] wrote: There is no point keeping solitary confinement in its current state, it only makes things worse. The whole idea of 'prison' should be reworked as far as I am concerned. You are supposed to help these people, not lock them up and make them even more mentally unstable. The way it is now is the easy, but also the most primitive method. It is the way of people who don't want to face the real problems, such as what causes someone to be a psychopath for example, and makes them do the things they do. What is the underlying neurological reason, and is there something we could do about it? The current stance is one that I just can not support.
Now, to what is also shocking : some of these comments I saw by just skimming this thread. + Show Spoiler +
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
On July 11 2013 11:20 a176 wrote: You give them food and a place to sleep. What more do they deserve exactly?
I dont really know what to say to that. Get some better education I suppose?
Are you serious? Dude, I get told to kill myself at least twice a day by people on league of legends, sc2, facebook, etc. How can anything that someone says be surprising to you at all. I know, maybe you dont live in the real world.
They do not.Even if I post hundreds of articles saying that most of the california prison system population is gang affiliated theys till do not care.They probably live in a very good neighbourhood,never had to deal with gang violence etc.it is only when someone who breaks into your house and kills your family for just being witness do you realize the animality and cruelty of these individuals who then claim mercy.I saw a homeburglar once in a documentary.he was convicted of robbing and sodomizing about 20 or so families and got like 10 life sentences.When he was asked about it he clamyl admitted to sodomizing his victims by sticking his pistol into their assholes and then drowning them in water.He was so calm you would think he was talking about buying some frosties form the supermarket.In ROmania its the same.Gang of gipsies beat up and kill people them whem you see them on tv you would think they are the most innocent men alive.All accusing the warden of bad treatments,all saying that prison is torture although a coupe of months before they were killing people/robbing houses/raping women without blinking.
So your argument is that the criminals are winning the "who can be the biggest asshole" competition and that we, the law abiding public, need to up our game?
Really?
No.I am argumenting that once you commit a heinous crime you better be prepared to serve your FULL sentence according to the LAW just like anybody else and not pull cheap stunts like claiming jail is inhumane.Yes once you commit a murder be prepared to serve 25 to life for it .And if you commit a crime in jail aka assault another inmate,shank a guard etc be prepared to serve time in solitary confinement.That is how the LAW is.Solitary confinement is not a sadistical pleasure of the guards but a need to protect the other inmates and the guards themselves form life serving gangbangers who already have multiple life sentences and do not care if they do yoga all day in jail or if they kill 200 inmates.For them it is the same.Notyhing can happen to them.You can not give a guy with multiple life sentences more time.And it is quite funny that after some digging I found out that the individuals that started the strike are in solitary confinement at Pelican bay,a supermax where only the hardest offenders go and where leaders f the arian brotherhood and mexican drug cartels are housed.Also these individuals are there because from jail they have ordered hits outside of prison and a lot of persons have lost their lives.We arent talking about your regular car thief here.We are talking about dudes with multiple bodies on their resume.
No we should not be more badass than them but we need to protect the lawabiding citizens and the less dangerous inmates from the gangbangers who have nothing to lose.Read the article I have provided for more introsepction.Also check out lockup raw on youtube.
You've pulled this out your ass and the reason I know that is because in the topic it explains that the overcrowding of the prisons like this has been declared illegal by the supreme court. What they are serving is not their full sentence but is rather something in addition to their sentence as a result of a fuckup by the state of California which is acting illegally in forcing this upon them. Oddly enough by your reasoning the Californian state government are now also criminals and can therefore be fucked in any way a law abiding citizen sees fit, even if what you're doing to them is illegal, because they're criminals and "FULL SENTENCE".
Your argument isn't an argument, it's barely a string of words. It basically goes that it's fine to illegally do things to prisoners because they broke the law.
As a mod you should actually read the ny times article.
this what the ny article says about the supreme court decision
California is facing the threat of being charged with contempt of court after a Supreme Court order in May 2011 to reduce its prison population by 10,000 inmates this year. The court said crowding and terrible conditions inside the prison system constituted inhumane treatment in violation of the Eighth Amendment. On Wednesday, the state filed for a stay of the court’s order to release prisoners.
Gov. Jerry Brown has repeatedly said that the state has gone as far as it can to release low-level offenders and reduce crowding at the prisons, and that it is providing adequate medical care for inmates. But last month, a federal judge criticized the system for allowing potentially lethal valley fever to spread through two jails in Central Valley and ordered the state to move 2,600 inmates at risk of catching the disease.
10k inmates and that is it.And already people who have commited crimes have been released.If you feel comfortable with that it is your problem.
OMG why are you still making that argument? THEY ARE BEING HELD ILLEGALLY AND I ALREADY LINKED YOU TO THE ARTICLE THAT SHOWS IT WAS 30K. I did this hours ago and you responded like you read it and understood what was in it. Its 10K per year and the ruling was nearly THREE YEARS AGO. It is not ok for the goverment to treat people like shit because they are to fucking lazy and cheap to build more prisions.
There are between 140-170K inmates in the California prison system. They can find 30K non-violent offenders to release.
Seriously, fucking ignoring everything people write. You keep rehashing the same stupid arguments over and over, linking to pointless reports about prisons in other countries.
And finally, its not your problem either and you shouldn't care because you don't live in the US. Unless we export them to your country.
On July 12 2013 06:09 []Phase[] wrote: There is no point keeping solitary confinement in its current state, it only makes things worse. The whole idea of 'prison' should be reworked as far as I am concerned. You are supposed to help these people, not lock them up and make them even more mentally unstable. The way it is now is the easy, but also the most primitive method. It is the way of people who don't want to face the real problems, such as what causes someone to be a psychopath for example, and makes them do the things they do. What is the underlying neurological reason, and is there something we could do about it? The current stance is one that I just can not support.
Now, to what is also shocking : some of these comments I saw by just skimming this thread. + Show Spoiler +
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
On July 11 2013 11:20 a176 wrote: You give them food and a place to sleep. What more do they deserve exactly?
I dont really know what to say to that. Get some better education I suppose?
Are you serious? Dude, I get told to kill myself at least twice a day by people on league of legends, sc2, facebook, etc. How can anything that someone says be surprising to you at all. I know, maybe you dont live in the real world.
They do not.Even if I post hundreds of articles saying that most of the california prison system population is gang affiliated theys till do not care.They probably live in a very good neighbourhood,never had to deal with gang violence etc.it is only when someone who breaks into your house and kills your family for just being witness do you realize the animality and cruelty of these individuals who then claim mercy.I saw a homeburglar once in a documentary.he was convicted of robbing and sodomizing about 20 or so families and got like 10 life sentences.When he was asked about it he clamyl admitted to sodomizing his victims by sticking his pistol into their assholes and then drowning them in water.He was so calm you would think he was talking about buying some frosties form the supermarket.In ROmania its the same.Gang of gipsies beat up and kill people them whem you see them on tv you would think they are the most innocent men alive.All accusing the warden of bad treatments,all saying that prison is torture although a coupe of months before they were killing people/robbing houses/raping women without blinking.
So your argument is that the criminals are winning the "who can be the biggest asshole" competition and that we, the law abiding public, need to up our game?
Really?
No.I am argumenting that once you commit a heinous crime you better be prepared to serve your FULL sentence according to the LAW just like anybody else and not pull cheap stunts like claiming jail is inhumane.Yes once you commit a murder be prepared to serve 25 to life for it .And if you commit a crime in jail aka assault another inmate,shank a guard etc be prepared to serve time in solitary confinement.That is how the LAW is.Solitary confinement is not a sadistical pleasure of the guards but a need to protect the other inmates and the guards themselves form life serving gangbangers who already have multiple life sentences and do not care if they do yoga all day in jail or if they kill 200 inmates.For them it is the same.Notyhing can happen to them.You can not give a guy with multiple life sentences more time.And it is quite funny that after some digging I found out that the individuals that started the strike are in solitary confinement at Pelican bay,a supermax where only the hardest offenders go and where leaders f the arian brotherhood and mexican drug cartels are housed.Also these individuals are there because from jail they have ordered hits outside of prison and a lot of persons have lost their lives.We arent talking about your regular car thief here.We are talking about dudes with multiple bodies on their resume.
No we should not be more badass than them but we need to protect the lawabiding citizens and the less dangerous inmates from the gangbangers who have nothing to lose.Read the article I have provided for more introsepction.Also check out lockup raw on youtube.
You've pulled this out your ass and the reason I know that is because in the topic it explains that the overcrowding of the prisons like this has been declared illegal by the supreme court. What they are serving is not their full sentence but is rather something in addition to their sentence as a result of a fuckup by the state of California which is acting illegally in forcing this upon them. Oddly enough by your reasoning the Californian state government are now also criminals and can therefore be fucked in any way a law abiding citizen sees fit, even if what you're doing to them is illegal, because they're criminals and "FULL SENTENCE".
Your argument isn't an argument, it's barely a string of words. It basically goes that it's fine to illegally do things to prisoners because they broke the law.
As a mod you should actually read the ny times article.
this what the ny article says about the supreme court decision
California is facing the threat of being charged with contempt of court after a Supreme Court order in May 2011 to reduce its prison population by 10,000 inmates this year. The court said crowding and terrible conditions inside the prison system constituted inhumane treatment in violation of the Eighth Amendment. On Wednesday, the state filed for a stay of the court’s order to release prisoners.
Gov. Jerry Brown has repeatedly said that the state has gone as far as it can to release low-level offenders and reduce crowding at the prisons, and that it is providing adequate medical care for inmates. But last month, a federal judge criticized the system for allowing potentially lethal valley fever to spread through two jails in Central Valley and ordered the state to move 2,600 inmates at risk of catching the disease.
10k inmates and that is it.And already people who have commited crimes have been released.If you feel comfortable with that it is your problem.
OMG why are you still making that argument? THEY ARE BEING HELD ILLEGALLY AND I ALREADY LINKED YOU TO THE ARTICLE THAT SHOWS IT WAS 30K. Its 10K per year and the ruling was nearly THREE YEARS AGO. It is not ok for the goverment to treat people like shit because they are to fucking lazy and cheap to build more prisions.
There are between 140-170K inmates in the California prison system. They can find 30K non-violent offenders to release.
Seriously, fucking ignoring everything people write. You keep rehashing the same stupid arguments over and over, linking to pointless reports about prisons in other countries.
they are incarcerated legally.The conditions in which they are held are illegal.Big difference.The state of California is between releasing violent offenders and keeping them in bad conditions.Both of which are bad situations but the second one is more beneficial for society since it protects individual law abiding citizens.There are many law codes that must be respected.the human rights is just one of them
What they are serving is not their full sentence but is rather something in addition to their sentence as a result of a fuckup by the state of California which is acting illegally in forcing this upon them
neither the Op nor the original article is saying that.You are just pulling stuff up your ass to make your point.Nowhere in the original article does it say that inmates are serving prolongues sentences.Learn to read.
Their full sentence was not X years solitary, they are being given the additional punishment of solitary because the state is unable to actually carry out the sentences the judges are passing down. They are shuffling prisoners through solitary to make room in prison because they are overcrowded and lack the facilities to actually do their jobs. I didn't write prolonged sentences, I wrote things in addition to their sentence. So no, you learn to read because what you wrote, in your barely comprehensible English (honestly it baffles me that you can go "learn to read" when what you write is so littered with spelling errors), in no way responds to what I wrote. You failed to read or understand my point and your conclusion was not the correct one, that you are simply too stupid to understand what I wrote, but rather than I had made an error. I did not. You did. Hopefully that clears it up. Maybe next time you experience confusion upon reading someone else's words make the effort to read them again and check it's not just you being dumb, given what I've seen of your posting so far I think you'll find that quite often it will be.
Oh boy and you are a mod on this website..... You genious you do not get solitary confinement for being a good boy you get it for COMMITING A CRIME BEHIND BARS which is also a crime.Shanking a guard and another inmate isnt a mild offense given to them by the state of California like you make it out to be but a SERIOUS OFFENSE simmilar to stabbing someone on the street.
So no, you learn to read because what you wrote, in your barely comprehensible English (honestly it baffles me that you can go "learn to read" when what you write is so littered with spelling errors), in no way responds to what I wrote
No you learn to read.i provided quotes form the original article confirming what I say you did not provide non.I am writing and watching the wcs na at the same time.My writing is preety understandable
[quoteMaybe next time you experience confusion upon reading someone else's words make the effort to read them again and check it's not just you being dumb, given what I've seen of your posting so far I think you'll find that quite often it will be]
Ah it is so easy to abuse your mod and resort to ad hominen although you contribute nothing to this discussion.This website has fallen well behind standards.Luckyly blizzard is doing its own wcs and esports portal soon.And you call yourselves a good website.Bleah.
P.S Deleted your post lol.[/QUOTE] If you read the 5 core complaints the prisoners on hunger strike have you'll notice that one of the complaints is about collective punishment for individual offences. Their complaint is about getting solitary for things that the prison knows that they didn't do. Also your response to my suggestion that you're barely literate was riddled with errors. You're not even trying here.
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
They do deserve rights as human beings though.
Exactly. Doesn't mean we can torture people simply because they are in prison.
huh? how is them being on hunger strike, torture?
Am i missing something or are they just complaining because prison is actually reforming them, as in, making them not want to go back because its so shitty?
Yeah. You didn't bother reading a single thing in this entire thread. Please go back and review the opening post.
On July 12 2013 06:09 []Phase[] wrote: There is no point keeping solitary confinement in its current state, it only makes things worse. The whole idea of 'prison' should be reworked as far as I am concerned. You are supposed to help these people, not lock them up and make them even more mentally unstable. The way it is now is the easy, but also the most primitive method. It is the way of people who don't want to face the real problems, such as what causes someone to be a psychopath for example, and makes them do the things they do. What is the underlying neurological reason, and is there something we could do about it? The current stance is one that I just can not support.
Now, to what is also shocking : some of these comments I saw by just skimming this thread. + Show Spoiler +
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
On July 11 2013 11:20 a176 wrote: You give them food and a place to sleep. What more do they deserve exactly?
I dont really know what to say to that. Get some better education I suppose?
Are you serious? Dude, I get told to kill myself at least twice a day by people on league of legends, sc2, facebook, etc. How can anything that someone says be surprising to you at all. I know, maybe you dont live in the real world.
They do not.Even if I post hundreds of articles saying that most of the california prison system population is gang affiliated theys till do not care.They probably live in a very good neighbourhood,never had to deal with gang violence etc.it is only when someone who breaks into your house and kills your family for just being witness do you realize the animality and cruelty of these individuals who then claim mercy.I saw a homeburglar once in a documentary.he was convicted of robbing and sodomizing about 20 or so families and got like 10 life sentences.When he was asked about it he clamyl admitted to sodomizing his victims by sticking his pistol into their assholes and then drowning them in water.He was so calm you would think he was talking about buying some frosties form the supermarket.In ROmania its the same.Gang of gipsies beat up and kill people them whem you see them on tv you would think they are the most innocent men alive.All accusing the warden of bad treatments,all saying that prison is torture although a coupe of months before they were killing people/robbing houses/raping women without blinking.
So your argument is that the criminals are winning the "who can be the biggest asshole" competition and that we, the law abiding public, need to up our game?
Really?
No.I am argumenting that once you commit a heinous crime you better be prepared to serve your FULL sentence according to the LAW just like anybody else and not pull cheap stunts like claiming jail is inhumane.Yes once you commit a murder be prepared to serve 25 to life for it .And if you commit a crime in jail aka assault another inmate,shank a guard etc be prepared to serve time in solitary confinement.That is how the LAW is.Solitary confinement is not a sadistical pleasure of the guards but a need to protect the other inmates and the guards themselves form life serving gangbangers who already have multiple life sentences and do not care if they do yoga all day in jail or if they kill 200 inmates.For them it is the same.Notyhing can happen to them.You can not give a guy with multiple life sentences more time.And it is quite funny that after some digging I found out that the individuals that started the strike are in solitary confinement at Pelican bay,a supermax where only the hardest offenders go and where leaders f the arian brotherhood and mexican drug cartels are housed.Also these individuals are there because from jail they have ordered hits outside of prison and a lot of persons have lost their lives.We arent talking about your regular car thief here.We are talking about dudes with multiple bodies on their resume.
No we should not be more badass than them but we need to protect the lawabiding citizens and the less dangerous inmates from the gangbangers who have nothing to lose.Read the article I have provided for more introsepction.Also check out lockup raw on youtube.
You've pulled this out your ass and the reason I know that is because in the topic it explains that the overcrowding of the prisons like this has been declared illegal by the supreme court. What they are serving is not their full sentence but is rather something in addition to their sentence as a result of a fuckup by the state of California which is acting illegally in forcing this upon them. Oddly enough by your reasoning the Californian state government are now also criminals and can therefore be fucked in any way a law abiding citizen sees fit, even if what you're doing to them is illegal, because they're criminals and "FULL SENTENCE".
Your argument isn't an argument, it's barely a string of words. It basically goes that it's fine to illegally do things to prisoners because they broke the law.
As a mod you should actually read the ny times article.
this what the ny article says about the supreme court decision
California is facing the threat of being charged with contempt of court after a Supreme Court order in May 2011 to reduce its prison population by 10,000 inmates this year. The court said crowding and terrible conditions inside the prison system constituted inhumane treatment in violation of the Eighth Amendment. On Wednesday, the state filed for a stay of the court’s order to release prisoners.
Gov. Jerry Brown has repeatedly said that the state has gone as far as it can to release low-level offenders and reduce crowding at the prisons, and that it is providing adequate medical care for inmates. But last month, a federal judge criticized the system for allowing potentially lethal valley fever to spread through two jails in Central Valley and ordered the state to move 2,600 inmates at risk of catching the disease.
10k inmates and that is it.And already people who have commited crimes have been released.If you feel comfortable with that it is your problem.
OMG why are you still making that argument? THEY ARE BEING HELD ILLEGALLY AND I ALREADY LINKED YOU TO THE ARTICLE THAT SHOWS IT WAS 30K. Its 10K per year and the ruling was nearly THREE YEARS AGO. It is not ok for the goverment to treat people like shit because they are to fucking lazy and cheap to build more prisions.
There are between 140-170K inmates in the California prison system. They can find 30K non-violent offenders to release.
Seriously, fucking ignoring everything people write. You keep rehashing the same stupid arguments over and over, linking to pointless reports about prisons in other countries.
they are incarcerated legally.The conditions in which they are held are illegal.Big difference.The state of California is between releasing violent offenders and keeping them in bad conditions.Both of which are bad situations but the second one is more beneficial for society since it protects individual law abiding citizens.There are many law codes that must be respected.the human rights is just one of them
Ok, you are not from the US, so I am going to explain this to you. When the Supreme Court of the US says something is Illegal and against the Constitution, that is it. Its fact and law. End of story. There is no place higher to go and there is no changing the outcome. It his the highest law in the land, overriding all other laws.
You don't understand what you are talking about, you did poor research, which Kwark and I are calling you on and you don't listen. Give up, your wrong.
Whether you feel the prisoners are right or wrong, how does everyone feel the prisons should handle these hunger strikes? If people are protesting truly inhumane treatment within prison walls (Or misuse of allowed practices), how can this be handled? I would not want to be the one to figure that out. You must protect human rights no matter what a prisoner has done. However, you still need to be able to have some consequences for those who act out. I can imagine that some prisons are not run well and that people are treated unfairly.
What they are serving is not their full sentence but is rather something in addition to their sentence as a result of a fuckup by the state of California which is acting illegally in forcing this upon them
neither the Op nor the original article is saying that.You are just pulling stuff up your ass to make your point.Nowhere in the original article does it say that inmates are serving prolongues sentences.Learn to read.
Their full sentence was not X years solitary, they are being given the additional punishment of solitary because the state is unable to actually carry out the sentences the judges are passing down. They are shuffling prisoners through solitary to make room in prison because they are overcrowded and lack the facilities to actually do their jobs. I didn't write prolonged sentences, I wrote things in addition to their sentence. So no, you learn to read because what you wrote, in your barely comprehensible English (honestly it baffles me that you can go "learn to read" when what you write is so littered with spelling errors), in no way responds to what I wrote. You failed to read or understand my point and your conclusion was not the correct one, that you are simply too stupid to understand what I wrote, but rather than I had made an error. I did not. You did. Hopefully that clears it up. Maybe next time you experience confusion upon reading someone else's words make the effort to read them again and check it's not just you being dumb, given what I've seen of your posting so far I think you'll find that quite often it will be.
Oh boy and you are a mod on this website..... You genious you do not get solitary confinement for being a good boy you get it for COMMITING A CRIME BEHIND BARS which is also a crime.Shanking a guard and another inmate isnt a mild offense given to them by the state of California like you make it out to be but a SERIOUS OFFENSE simmilar to stabbing someone on the street.
They are shuffling prisoners through solitary to make room in prison because they are overcrowded and lack the facilities to actually do their jobs.
Where does it say that in the OP or in the linked articles?COme on give me the quote.THERE IS NO QUOTE because it does not say that in the article
So no, you learn to read because what you wrote, in your barely comprehensible English (honestly it baffles me that you can go "learn to read" when what you write is so littered with spelling errors), in no way responds to what I wrote
No you learn to read.i provided quotes form the original article confirming what I say you did not provide non.I am writing and watching the wcs na at the same time.My writing is preety understandable
[quoteMaybe next time you experience confusion upon reading someone else's words make the effort to read them again and check it's not just you being dumb, given what I've seen of your posting so far I think you'll find that quite often it will be]
Ah it is so easy to abuse your mod and resort to ad hominen although you contribute nothing to this discussion.This website has fallen well behind standards.Luckyly blizzard is doing its own wcs and esports portal soon.And you call yourselves a good website.Bleah.
P.S Deleted your post lol.
If you read the 5 core complaints the prisoners on hunger strike have you'll notice that one of the complaints is about collective punishment for individual offences. Their complaint is about getting solitary for things that the prison knows that they didn't do. Also your response to my suggestion that you're barely literate was riddled with errors. You're not even trying here.[/QUOTE]
And you take the word of some inmates who were convicted for violent offences in the first place...you are living in your own dream world...You do not even know if what they are saying is true.All of the other sources point out they are violent gang members.it is preety useless to argue with you.You have your own oppinion and when use ad hominen whenever you run out of arguments..all of the other users here seem to understand my argumentation and offer other arguments to their side of the story.Even if they do not agree with me they keep the discussion civil.Then you came and ruined the discussion with your ad homines.But hey you are a mod .When I innitially came here I though that these website due to its reputation would be a little more ad homien free.But it turns out the mods are the biggest insult users around.I am taking a break form TeamLiquid.Going to blizzard forums for a while.I am also deleting all of my Op.not that there are many but I put a little effort into them.Oh well my mistake.it will never happen again.
On July 12 2013 08:10 theking1 wrote: And you take the word of some inmates who were convicted for violent offences in the first place...you are living in your own dream world...You do not even know if what they are saying is true.All of the other sources point out they are violent gang members.it is preety useless to argue with you.You have your own oppinion and when use ad hominen whenever you run out of arguments..all of the other users here seem to understand my argumentation and offer other arguments to their side of the story.Even if they do not agree with me they keep the discussion civil.Then you came and ruined the discussion with your ad homines.But hey you are a mod .When I innitially came here I though that these website due to its reputation would be a little more ad homien free.But it turns out the mods are the biggest insult users around.I am taking a break form TeamLiquid.Going to blizzard forums for a while.I am also deleting all of my Op.not that there are many but I put a little effort into them.Oh well my mistake.it will never happen again.
People have stated facts. They've stated court verdicts. They've stated Supreme Court judgments. They've posted psychological studies. You have talked out of your ass for several posts in a row.
Your hypothetical is meaningless. In your magical fantasy land where California has picture perfect prisons and prisoners are all compulsive liars, you might have a point, but until your arguments have a basis in reality, please stop pretending to provide a meaningful debate.
Solitary confinement is for retarded prisoners who attack others. Imo yes it can cause mental traumas so it should be banned and replaced by an extension of the judgement or a really good beating.
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
I thought the point of prison was to provide disincentives for crime, rehabilitate people so they can be brought back into society, and/or prevent people from committing further crimes, not subject people to inhumane conditions that worsen their mental state.
Nope. They are used to make money for the people who are contracted to provide services for the government.
On July 12 2013 06:09 []Phase[] wrote: There is no point keeping solitary confinement in its current state, it only makes things worse. The whole idea of 'prison' should be reworked as far as I am concerned. You are supposed to help these people, not lock them up and make them even more mentally unstable. The way it is now is the easy, but also the most primitive method. It is the way of people who don't want to face the real problems, such as what causes someone to be a psychopath for example, and makes them do the things they do. What is the underlying neurological reason, and is there something we could do about it? The current stance is one that I just can not support.
Now, to what is also shocking : some of these comments I saw by just skimming this thread. + Show Spoiler +
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
On July 11 2013 11:20 a176 wrote: You give them food and a place to sleep. What more do they deserve exactly?
I dont really know what to say to that. Get some better education I suppose?
Are you serious? Dude, I get told to kill myself at least twice a day by people on league of legends, sc2, facebook, etc. How can anything that someone says be surprising to you at all. I know, maybe you dont live in the real world.
They do not.Even if I post hundreds of articles saying that most of the california prison system population is gang affiliated theys till do not care.They probably live in a very good neighbourhood,never had to deal with gang violence etc.it is only when someone who breaks into your house and kills your family for just being witness do you realize the animality and cruelty of these individuals who then claim mercy.I saw a homeburglar once in a documentary.he was convicted of robbing and sodomizing about 20 or so families and got like 10 life sentences.When he was asked about it he clamyl admitted to sodomizing his victims by sticking his pistol into their assholes and then drowning them in water.He was so calm you would think he was talking about buying some frosties form the supermarket.In ROmania its the same.Gang of gipsies beat up and kill people them whem you see them on tv you would think they are the most innocent men alive.All accusing the warden of bad treatments,all saying that prison is torture although a coupe of months before they were killing people/robbing houses/raping women without blinking.
So your argument is that the criminals are winning the "who can be the biggest asshole" competition and that we, the law abiding public, need to up our game?
Really?
No.I am argumenting that once you commit a heinous crime you better be prepared to serve your FULL sentence according to the LAW just like anybody else and not pull cheap stunts like claiming jail is inhumane.Yes once you commit a murder be prepared to serve 25 to life for it .And if you commit a crime in jail aka assault another inmate,shank a guard etc be prepared to serve time in solitary confinement.That is how the LAW is.Solitary confinement is not a sadistical pleasure of the guards but a need to protect the other inmates and the guards themselves form life serving gangbangers who already have multiple life sentences and do not care if they do yoga all day in jail or if they kill 200 inmates.For them it is the same.Notyhing can happen to them.You can not give a guy with multiple life sentences more time.And it is quite funny that after some digging I found out that the individuals that started the strike are in solitary confinement at Pelican bay,a supermax where only the hardest offenders go and where leaders f the arian brotherhood and mexican drug cartels are housed.Also these individuals are there because from jail they have ordered hits outside of prison and a lot of persons have lost their lives.We arent talking about your regular car thief here.We are talking about dudes with multiple bodies on their resume.
No we should not be more badass than them but we need to protect the lawabiding citizens and the less dangerous inmates from the gangbangers who have nothing to lose.Read the article I have provided for more introsepction.Also check out lockup raw on youtube.
You've pulled this out your ass and the reason I know that is because in the topic it explains that the overcrowding of the prisons like this has been declared illegal by the supreme court. What they are serving is not their full sentence but is rather something in addition to their sentence as a result of a fuckup by the state of California which is acting illegally in forcing this upon them. Oddly enough by your reasoning the Californian state government are now also criminals and can therefore be fucked in any way a law abiding citizen sees fit, even if what you're doing to them is illegal, because they're criminals and "FULL SENTENCE".
Your argument isn't an argument, it's barely a string of words. It basically goes that it's fine to illegally do things to prisoners because they broke the law.
As a mod you should actually read the ny times article.
this what the ny article says about the supreme court decision
California is facing the threat of being charged with contempt of court after a Supreme Court order in May 2011 to reduce its prison population by 10,000 inmates this year. The court said crowding and terrible conditions inside the prison system constituted inhumane treatment in violation of the Eighth Amendment. On Wednesday, the state filed for a stay of the court’s order to release prisoners.
Gov. Jerry Brown has repeatedly said that the state has gone as far as it can to release low-level offenders and reduce crowding at the prisons, and that it is providing adequate medical care for inmates. But last month, a federal judge criticized the system for allowing potentially lethal valley fever to spread through two jails in Central Valley and ordered the state to move 2,600 inmates at risk of catching the disease.
10k inmates and that is it.And already people who have commited crimes have been released.If you feel comfortable with that it is your problem.
OMG why are you still making that argument? THEY ARE BEING HELD ILLEGALLY AND I ALREADY LINKED YOU TO THE ARTICLE THAT SHOWS IT WAS 30K. Its 10K per year and the ruling was nearly THREE YEARS AGO. It is not ok for the goverment to treat people like shit because they are to fucking lazy and cheap to build more prisions.
There are between 140-170K inmates in the California prison system. They can find 30K non-violent offenders to release.
Seriously, fucking ignoring everything people write. You keep rehashing the same stupid arguments over and over, linking to pointless reports about prisons in other countries.
they are incarcerated legally.The conditions in which they are held are illegal.Big difference.The state of California is between releasing violent offenders and keeping them in bad conditions.Both of which are bad situations but the second one is more beneficial for society since it protects individual law abiding citizens.There are many law codes that must be respected.the human rights is just one of them
Ok, you are not from the US, so I am going to explain this to you. When the Supreme Court of the US says something is Illegal and against the Constitution, that is it. Its fact and law. End of story. There is no place higher to go and there is no changing the outcome. It his the highest law in the land, overriding all other laws.
You don't understand what you are talking about, you did poor research, which Kwark and I are calling you on and you don't listen. Give up, your wrong.
I just gave up what that guy was saying because he clearly doesn't understand the U.S. law system. I'd love to see his response on these though, because I feel like he's going to just repeat himself over and over again.
What they are serving is not their full sentence but is rather something in addition to their sentence as a result of a fuckup by the state of California which is acting illegally in forcing this upon them
neither the Op nor the original article is saying that.You are just pulling stuff up your ass to make your point.Nowhere in the original article does it say that inmates are serving prolongues sentences.Learn to read.
Their full sentence was not X years solitary, they are being given the additional punishment of solitary because the state is unable to actually carry out the sentences the judges are passing down. They are shuffling prisoners through solitary to make room in prison because they are overcrowded and lack the facilities to actually do their jobs. I didn't write prolonged sentences, I wrote things in addition to their sentence. So no, you learn to read because what you wrote, in your barely comprehensible English (honestly it baffles me that you can go "learn to read" when what you write is so littered with spelling errors), in no way responds to what I wrote. You failed to read or understand my point and your conclusion was not the correct one, that you are simply too stupid to understand what I wrote, but rather than I had made an error. I did not. You did. Hopefully that clears it up. Maybe next time you experience confusion upon reading someone else's words make the effort to read them again and check it's not just you being dumb, given what I've seen of your posting so far I think you'll find that quite often it will be.
Oh boy and you are a mod on this website..... You genious you do not get solitary confinement for being a good boy you get it for COMMITING A CRIME BEHIND BARS which is also a crime.Shanking a guard and another inmate isnt a mild offense given to them by the state of California like you make it out to be but a SERIOUS OFFENSE simmilar to stabbing someone on the street.
They are shuffling prisoners through solitary to make room in prison because they are overcrowded and lack the facilities to actually do their jobs.
Where does it say that in the OP or in the linked articles?COme on give me the quote.THERE IS NO QUOTE because it does not say that in the article
So no, you learn to read because what you wrote, in your barely comprehensible English (honestly it baffles me that you can go "learn to read" when what you write is so littered with spelling errors), in no way responds to what I wrote
No you learn to read.i provided quotes form the original article confirming what I say you did not provide non.I am writing and watching the wcs na at the same time.My writing is preety understandable
[quoteMaybe next time you experience confusion upon reading someone else's words make the effort to read them again and check it's not just you being dumb, given what I've seen of your posting so far I think you'll find that quite often it will be]
Ah it is so easy to abuse your mod and resort to ad hominen although you contribute nothing to this discussion.This website has fallen well behind standards.Luckyly blizzard is doing its own wcs and esports portal soon.And you call yourselves a good website.Bleah.
P.S Deleted your post lol.
If you read the 5 core complaints the prisoners on hunger strike have you'll notice that one of the complaints is about collective punishment for individual offences. Their complaint is about getting solitary for things that the prison knows that they didn't do. Also your response to my suggestion that you're barely literate was riddled with errors. You're not even trying here.
And you take the word of some inmates who were convicted for violent offences in the first place...you are living in your own dream world...You do not even know if what they are saying is true.All of the other sources point out they are violent gang members.it is preety useless to argue with you.You have your own oppinion and when use ad hominen whenever you run out of arguments..all of the other users here seem to understand my argumentation and offer other arguments to their side of the story.Even if they do not agree with me they keep the discussion civil.Then you came and ruined the discussion with your ad homines.But hey you are a mod .When I innitially came here I though that these website due to its reputation would be a little more ad homien free.But it turns out the mods are the biggest insult users around.I am taking a break form TeamLiquid.Going to blizzard forums for a while.I am also deleting all of my Op.not that there are many but I put a little effort into them.Oh well my mistake.it will never happen again.
Have fun on the blizzard forums lol..... This baby attitude of yours will be perfect there.
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
I don't think you realize just how little it takes to end up in prison or just how severe solitary is.
Great post. I had no idea this was taking place. America's tough on crime policies have a lot of 2nd and 3rd order effects we weren't prepared for. Solidarity confinement has terrible effects on a human being, especially one we plan on releasing at some point.
A prison should be one of the scariest place on earth. A place that makes you REALLY think MANY times 'is this crime really worth the possible, atrocious confinement?'
In this way, all the small crimes would decrease. The psychos would still go for it, but since you can't foresee a crime, you 'just' have to make sure they can't go out and repeat it again.
The example of northern country prisons is out of context: it can only work there, where people have a different mind set, the popolation is law and overall criminality is law. If you were to apply a Norway-like system to United States (but even Italy, Spain, France) people would EAT each others.
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens.
I don't think you realize just how little it takes to end up in prison or just how severe solitary is.
Especially given the fact that the US incarceration-rate seems to be totally out of control, with over 1% of the population (adults) sitting in prison. There are actually more people in prison in the US than their are in China (2.3 milion to 1.6 million)
It's kind of disturbing how many people have the mindset of "They're criminals, therefore they deserve what they get." Really? People who go to prison for something like possession of marijuana deserve to be mentally tortured? And as for only getting solitary confinement because you've stabbed someone in prison or something... No. While this may be the case in some prisons, in many it isn't; given that it's solely up to the discretion of the authorities of any given prison.
And really, what's being accomplished here? Driving people insane, possibly causing their behaviour to become increasingly erratic and violent? Why is this still happening in 2013?
So what's the alternative? I understand the morality issue, but isn't it a necessary evil? The denotation of prison as a rehab facility is laughable as it hasn't served that purpose for a LONG ass time. The US at least will never have the man power nor money to properly rehab these people in the near future.
On July 12 2013 09:17 EMIYA wrote: So what's the alternative? I understand the morality issue, but isn't it a necessary evil? The denotation of prison as a rehab facility is laughable as it hasn't served that purpose for a LONG ass time. The US at least will never have the man power nor money to properly rehab these people in the near future.
Read the thread. The Supreme Court has ordered them to find an alternative, or they did 3 years ago. The state is still working on that.
On July 12 2013 09:07 SoSexy wrote: A prison should be one of the scariest place on earth. A place that makes you REALLY think MANY times 'is this crime really worth the possible, atrocious confinement?'
In this way, all the small crimes would decrease. The psychos would still go for it, but since you can't foresee a crime, you 'just' have to make sure they can't go out and repeat it again.
The example of northern country prisons is out of context: it can only work there, where people have a different mind set, the popolation is law and overall criminality is law. If you were to apply a Norway-like system to United States (but even Italy, Spain, France) people would EAT each others.
Yeah...this doesn't even work. Historical studies have shown that losing a hand did not deter theft, death penalty does not deter murder, etc.
The worse prisons are, the more maladjusted prisoners become, and less likely that they'll be able to fit in with normal society once they get out of prison.
There is absolutely nothing special about criminals in the United States that prevents them from being rehabilitated.
On July 12 2013 09:07 SoSexy wrote: A prison should be one of the scariest place on earth. A place that makes you REALLY think MANY times 'is this crime really worth the possible, atrocious confinement?'
In this way, all the small crimes would decrease. The psychos would still go for it, but since you can't foresee a crime, you 'just' have to make sure they can't go out and repeat it again.
The example of northern country prisons is out of context: it can only work there, where people have a different mind set, the popolation is law and overall criminality is law. If you were to apply a Norway-like system to United States (but even Italy, Spain, France) people would EAT each others.
The evidence shows consistently, including with lots of data from across the U.S. (and also in other Western countries), that simply increasing the severity of sentences does not act as a better deterrent. A good summary of recent studies on this topic can be found here, but to summarize for you, it essentially boils down to the fact that humans (especially those who are committing crimes) are not always rational, sober or of sound mind, and thus they don't weigh the consequences of every action before it occurs. In fact it is counter-productive to reducing crime because "longer prison sentences were associated with a three percent increase in recidivism".
Of course this only makes sense if your goal is public safety for all. If your goal is to "fill beds" in order to maximize shareholder profit, then the system of putting away black kids for marijuana is totally awesome.
Interestingly the certainty of whether one would be caught does serve as an effective deterrent.
On July 12 2013 09:17 EMIYA wrote: So what's the alternative? I understand the morality issue, but isn't it a necessary evil? The denotation of prison as a rehab facility is laughable as it hasn't served that purpose for a LONG ass time. The US at least will never have the man power nor money to properly rehab these people in the near future.
On July 12 2013 09:07 SoSexy wrote: A prison should be one of the scariest place on earth. A place that makes you REALLY think MANY times 'is this crime really worth the possible, atrocious confinement?'
In this way, all the small crimes would decrease. The psychos would still go for it, but since you can't foresee a crime, you 'just' have to make sure they can't go out and repeat it again.
The example of northern country prisons is out of context: it can only work there, where people have a different mind set, the popolation is law and overall criminality is law. If you were to apply a Norway-like system to United States (but even Italy, Spain, France) people would EAT each others.
The evidence shows consistently, including with lots of data from across the U.S. (and also in other Western countries), that simply increasing the severity of sentences does not act as a better deterrent. A good summary of recent studies on this topic can be found here, but to summarize for you, it essentially boils down to the fact that humans (especially those who are committing crimes) are not always rational, sober or of sound mind, and thus they don't weigh the consequences of every action before it occurs. In fact it is counter-productive to reducing crime because "longer prison sentences were associated with a three percent increase in recidivism".
Of course this only makes sense if your goal is public safety for all. If your goal is to "fill beds" in order to maximize shareholder profit, then the system of putting away black kids for marijuana is totally awesome.
Interestingly the certainty of whether one would be caught does serve as an effective deterrent.
On July 12 2013 09:17 EMIYA wrote: So what's the alternative? I understand the morality issue, but isn't it a necessary evil? The denotation of prison as a rehab facility is laughable as it hasn't served that purpose for a LONG ass time. The US at least will never have the man power nor money to properly rehab these people in the near future.
I don't think solitary confinement should be banned at all. I think it makes sense to limit that sort of punishment to a minimum though.
This is because prisons should work mostly as a rehab institution, not only punishment. If for whatever reasons it's used as punishment, I think shorter sentence times with the same or more amounts of solitary confinement (depending on behavior) would be reasonable.
Also, I'd say majorrepeat offenders —including repeat/serious offenders while incarcerated— should just be outright killed, which could save the country lots of money.+ Show Spoiler +
Note: death penalty is not expensive. What's expensive is all the trials/appeals associated with them along with the incarceration time of the inmate before they are killed. From what I understand the cost of the actual procedure is around 0% of the overall cost of the entire greater system.
With a "3 strikes you're out" minimum, along with case-by-case judgement and perhaps even small "plead for life" hearings, the system would seem pretty fair and result in virtually no false sentencing (percentage of false convictions to the power of 3 or more results in a very small number), while still remaining low-impact on economic resources.
It goes without saying, but obviously decriminalization/legalization and regulation of marijuana could go a long way to improving prisons as well.
That said, this has been a glaring issue with the prison/government/judicial system for a long time, and I find it pretty ridiculous that things would only change after prisoners protest. I certainly don't think any sort of actions should be taken to change the system —or promise to change the system— within the time it takes for them to starve. Yes change needs to be done, but responding to threatening prisoner demands is silly, even if some of them are minor offenders or non-offenders.
On July 12 2013 09:10 GolemMadness wrote: It's kind of disturbing how many people have the mindset of "They're criminals, therefore they deserve what they get." Really? People who go to prison for something like possession of marijuana deserve to be mentally tortured? And as for only getting solitary confinement because you've stabbed someone in prison or something... No. While this may be the case in some prisons, in many it isn't; given that it's solely up to the discretion of the authorities of any given prison.
And really, what's being accomplished here? Driving people insane, possibly causing their behaviour to become increasingly erratic and violent? Why is this still happening in 2013?
Yep, this thread has gotten pretty disgusting damn fast. It is making my eyes bleed, and honestly it's the first time I really want a thread to be closed, despite the good intentions of some posters. After this im steering clear from this thread.
People should not (and will not) stop committing crimes because of fear for prison. We should try make people stop committing crimes by solving the cause, and that can be a problem with their upgrowing environment, a neurological problem, and so on. The fact that there are regions where less crime occurs isn't just coincidence. This alone should make it very clear that we do indeed have control over things such as crime - if we are willing to take the time and study it thoroughly. People don't do evil deeds just like that. I am not saying they have no control over what they do, but a 'lack of selfcontrol' is also a phenomena that can be investigated and possibly cured. As a temporary solution we have prisons -some of which work better than others might I add- but they shouldn't go so low as to resort to torture practices. Are we heading back to medieval times now? It is not about wether a criminal 'deserves' it or not. Allowing something like torture practices also says something about yourself, you know.
This approach of 'ah that person did something wrong, let's just lock him up so I don't have to spend time caring, and I can move on with my life' disgusts me to no end. It is like a child covering his ears, so he can stay stupid.
I'm afraid to read this thread because I'm expecting to read from people who are favorable to the torture of the inmates who misbehave and such, so I'll go ahead and ask a question...
I'm against solitary confinement, but what are the alternatives? Maybe I'm missing something obvious but if an inmate is dangerous to others, what can be done? My initial thought was that they should have individual cells and be away from the rest of the people, but that's most likely very costly and some inmates would probably prefer to be there... Anyway I don't know.
Exclusively using prison or other deterrents to stop people from being criminals is like raising your child to know right from wrong by disciplining them every time they do something wrong but never bothering to explain to them why some things are right and some things are wrong. I believe that right things are right because it makes the most sense to do them if you understand them properly. People who commit crimes do so because either they don't really understand why we should do good things rather than bad ones or because they have some sort of mental issue that messes up their rationality (crimes under duress, emotional issues, mental illness, significant lack of education etc. etc.). You can't scare someone into being a good person; you can only scare them into being a subtler bad one.
On July 13 2013 00:34 Djzapz wrote: I'm afraid to read this thread because I'm expecting to read from people who are favorable to the torture of the inmates who misbehave and such, so I'll go ahead and ask a question...
I'm against solitary confinement, but what are the alternatives? Maybe I'm missing something obvious but if an inmate is dangerous to others, what can be done? My initial thought was that they should have individual cells and be away from the rest of the people, but that's most likely very costly and some inmates would probably prefer to be there... Anyway I don't know.
So what are the solutions?
I will post this again, because it deserves to be posted: Sam Harris says it much better than I can; We cannot morally justify revenge. It makes no sense no matter how you look at it.
With this POV in mind, the solution is to create a society where prisons are not filled with people because the people are not criminals to begin with. This is outside of the scope of this thread, but I think the problem is that the thread has too narrow of a scope to begin with. It feels like in order to discus what to do when prisoners go on strike we need to hold common ground on why they are prisoners to begin with.
If you ask me (dunno why, I am not an expert), the problem is that prisons only deal with the symptoms, not the causes.
Look at any place on earth. The better the lives are of the people who live there, the lower the crime rate. I don't have numbers, but would guess that you can draw similar parallells with education, health and freedom. In scandinavia, we have violent criminals and psychos too, but they don't kill each other on a daily basis. For one, because they are not crammed together in a place that revels in violent gangrelated behaviour. But mostly because they really don't need to.
This is not because swedish people are somehow gifted with non violent genes. If anything, we have had nothing but violence in our history. It is because we are lucky enough to live in a country where things are kinda nice no matter how you look at it. If not, the question them becomes; what are the reasons scandinavians are just not as criminal as some other nations?
I will claim with no basis that you can take young criminals from any american city and have them live good lives in norway without an issue. It is not the people, it is something else. So if it isn't the people who decide whether they become criminals or not, why punish them when they do?
People are so blinded when it comes to righteous revenge that they fail to look for any sort of solution to the problem. It is well documented that harsh sentences does not deter crime, nor that military style gulags reduces violence in prisons. We just want criminals to be punished for no reason other than that we feel good about it, like we feel good about eating cake. However, just like we know that the long term effects of eating cake makes us fat an unhealthy, we also know that the long term effects of punishing people is that unhealthy.
You're in prison for doing something against the law. But, what if you did something bad while inside the prison? Do you just get to walk away? Hell, no. You want to punish someone for doing bad things for them to know that what they did is bad. Bad things done should deserve punishment same way as why good things done deserve a reward. Now, if word around the campfire says that you lose your mind when you're in solitary, I hope it instills the bad-things-done-punishment association with the prisoners. You don't get to prison without a justified reason (most of the time). You don't get to solitary confinement without you doing something.
You're in prison to change, not to act tough and stay a bad egg.
On July 12 2013 09:07 SoSexy wrote: A prison should be one of the scariest place on earth. A place that makes you REALLY think MANY times 'is this crime really worth the possible, atrocious confinement?'
In this way, all the small crimes would decrease. The psychos would still go for it, but since you can't foresee a crime, you 'just' have to make sure they can't go out and repeat it again.
The example of northern country prisons is out of context: it can only work there, where people have a different mind set, the popolation is law and overall criminality is law. If you were to apply a Norway-like system to United States (but even Italy, Spain, France) people would EAT each others.
The problem with this is that people are being imprisoned for doing things that create no risk for anyone else, and they don't deserve to be treated as if they're animals. If we had better social benefits, healthcare, a more even wealth distribution, etc... there would be a lot less people forced into a situation of taking unlawful action just so they can survive.
On July 13 2013 10:59 Batibot wrote: You're in prison for doing something against the law. But, what if you did something bad while inside the prison? Do you just get to walk away? Hell, no. You want to punish someone for doing bad things for them to know that what they did is bad. Bad things done should deserve punishment same way as why good things done deserve a reward. Now, if word around the campfire says that you lose your mind when you're in solitary, I hope it instills the bad-things-done-punishment association with the prisoners. You don't get to prison without a justified reason (most of the time). You don't get to solitary confinement without you doing something.
You're in prison to change, not to act tough and stay a bad egg.
Is anyone with this point of view actually reading the articles? People are being put into solitary in California jails for reasons such as suicide watch, which makes the mental afflictions worse, and also to free up space for incoming prisoners. New York jails are actually being found to do the same thing.
To those calling for punishment, fine, I understand that as a point of view; however, what is really being accomplished? Ok, we're punishing the individual. And then what? Is this really going to stop other prisoners or us from committing more crimes? How am I (and I take this from another person's argument) going to be deterred by a punishment that I don't even know is happening because of a lack of transparency halfway across the country?
We put prisoners in prison to separate them from society until they are in a position to live in society without causing harm to others. We put prisoners in solitary confinement when they pose a danger to their fellow prisoners. They are alone because they cannot be trusted with other people. The prisoners who go into solitary choose that path. They can play the victim, but until they learn that they are responsible for their own actions, there can be no progress. They knew about the consequences of their actions before they ended up in solitary, and used their actions to demonstrate that they wished to go there. You can pity them all you want, ultimately it was their choice to go there, and you are resisting their will.
On July 13 2013 12:27 Jisall wrote: We put prisoners in prison to separate them from society until they are in a position to live in society without causing harm to others. We put prisoners in solitary confinement when they pose a danger to their fellow prisoners. They are alone because they cannot be trusted with other people. The prisoners who go into solitary choose that path. They can play the victim, but until they learn that they are responsible for their own actions, there can be no progress. They knew about the consequences of their actions before they ended up in solitary, and used their actions to demonstrate that they wished to go there. You can pity them all you want, ultimately it was their choice to go there, and you are resisting their will.
Read the thread and stop repeating the same uninformed opinion that has been shot down again and again and again...
I'm pretty sure in some prisons you can be thrown in solitary for little infractions such as having contraband in your cell. Contraband isn't necessarily shanks or dangerous items. Things like tobacco, sugar, porn, non regulation clothing, radios, etc. Let's not be under the delusion that the only reason for solitary is trying to slit someones neck.
A lot of posts in this thread are saying prisoners deserve whatever they get. It's not true. Prison is prison, it's already a punishment, and the point is to keep lawbreakers at a remove from society for everybody's safety, until they can come back. Civilized countries don't punish people with the rack or the thumbscrews just because they can, and they shouldn't punish people with years of psychological torture either. The goal should be a secure, controlled environment. Let's try to be one of those nations that goes in for human rights.
On July 13 2013 12:27 Jisall wrote: We put prisoners in prison to separate them from society until they are in a position to live in society without causing harm to others. We put prisoners in solitary confinement when they pose a danger to their fellow prisoners. They are alone because they cannot be trusted with other people. The prisoners who go into solitary choose that path. They can play the victim, but until they learn that they are responsible for their own actions, there can be no progress. They knew about the consequences of their actions before they ended up in solitary, and used their actions to demonstrate that they wished to go there. You can pity them all you want, ultimately it was their choice to go there, and you are resisting their will.
What makes you think that people are only put in solitary confinement because they're a danger to other prisoners? Also, that argument is ridiculous. By that logic, having any punishment for any crime is ok, because as long as you don't commit the crime it's not an issue. Should people be executed for jaywalking because as long as they know it's a law they deserve what they get?
On July 13 2013 12:27 Jisall wrote: We put prisoners in prison to separate them from society until they are in a position to live in society without causing harm to others. We put prisoners in solitary confinement when they pose a danger to their fellow prisoners. They are alone because they cannot be trusted with other people. The prisoners who go into solitary choose that path. They can play the victim, but until they learn that they are responsible for their own actions, there can be no progress. They knew about the consequences of their actions before they ended up in solitary, and used their actions to demonstrate that they wished to go there. You can pity them all you want, ultimately it was their choice to go there, and you are resisting their will.
What makes you think that people are only put in solitary confinement because they're a danger to other prisoners?
Solitary confinement is a special form of imprisonment in which a prisoner is isolated from any human contact, though often with the exception of members of prison staff. It is sometimes employed as a form of punishment beyond incarceration for a prisoner and has been cited as an additional measure of protection from the inmate or is given for violations of prison regulations. It is also used as a form of protective custody and to implement a suicide watch.
Solitary confinement is used as punishment for rebellious prisoners, and to prevent suicide. Nothing in my argument changes.
Dear Governor Brown, I am shocked and disturbed to learn about the practice of solitary confinement in our state's prisons. Our current practices fall squarely within any definition of psychological torture, and the solitary confinement of individuals for years at a time is despicable.
I'm asking you to stand up for human rights. You will have my support.
On July 13 2013 12:27 Jisall wrote: We put prisoners in prison to separate them from society until they are in a position to live in society without causing harm to others. We put prisoners in solitary confinement when they pose a danger to their fellow prisoners. They are alone because they cannot be trusted with other people. The prisoners who go into solitary choose that path. They can play the victim, but until they learn that they are responsible for their own actions, there can be no progress. They knew about the consequences of their actions before they ended up in solitary, and used their actions to demonstrate that they wished to go there. You can pity them all you want, ultimately it was their choice to go there, and you are resisting their will.
What makes you think that people are only put in solitary confinement because they're a danger to other prisoners?
Solitary confinement is a special form of imprisonment in which a prisoner is isolated from any human contact, though often with the exception of members of prison staff. It is sometimes employed as a form of punishment beyond incarceration for a prisoner and has been cited as an additional measure of protection from the inmate or is given for violations of prison regulations. It is also used as a form of protective custody and to implement a suicide watch.
Solitary confinement is used as punishment for rebellious prisoners, and to prevent suicide. Nothing in my argument changes.
So, you don't have an issue with prisoners protesting if solitary confinement is used improperly then, correct?
On July 13 2013 12:27 Jisall wrote: We put prisoners in prison to separate them from society until they are in a position to live in society without causing harm to others. We put prisoners in solitary confinement when they pose a danger to their fellow prisoners. They are alone because they cannot be trusted with other people. The prisoners who go into solitary choose that path. They can play the victim, but until they learn that they are responsible for their own actions, there can be no progress. They knew about the consequences of their actions before they ended up in solitary, and used their actions to demonstrate that they wished to go there. You can pity them all you want, ultimately it was their choice to go there, and you are resisting their will.
What makes you think that people are only put in solitary confinement because they're a danger to other prisoners?
Solitary confinement is a special form of imprisonment in which a prisoner is isolated from any human contact, though often with the exception of members of prison staff. It is sometimes employed as a form of punishment beyond incarceration for a prisoner and has been cited as an additional measure of protection from the inmate or is given for violations of prison regulations. It is also used as a form of protective custody and to implement a suicide watch.
Solitary confinement is used as punishment for rebellious prisoners, and to prevent suicide. Nothing in my argument changes.
So, you don't have an issue with prisoners protesting if solitary confinement is used improperly then, correct?
In a word, no.
If they want to refuse food, that is their prerogative. I only sets them further back on their journey to socialization. The sooner they accept their situation and make the most of their time, the sooner they will get out. There is a reason prisoners get reduced sentences for "good behavior". I don't see solitary confinement being used inappropriately, and I do not see this protest causing any change.
On July 13 2013 12:27 Jisall wrote: We put prisoners in prison to separate them from society until they are in a position to live in society without causing harm to others. We put prisoners in solitary confinement when they pose a danger to their fellow prisoners. They are alone because they cannot be trusted with other people. The prisoners who go into solitary choose that path. They can play the victim, but until they learn that they are responsible for their own actions, there can be no progress. They knew about the consequences of their actions before they ended up in solitary, and used their actions to demonstrate that they wished to go there. You can pity them all you want, ultimately it was their choice to go there, and you are resisting their will.
What makes you think that people are only put in solitary confinement because they're a danger to other prisoners?
Solitary confinement is a special form of imprisonment in which a prisoner is isolated from any human contact, though often with the exception of members of prison staff. It is sometimes employed as a form of punishment beyond incarceration for a prisoner and has been cited as an additional measure of protection from the inmate or is given for violations of prison regulations. It is also used as a form of protective custody and to implement a suicide watch.
Solitary confinement is used as punishment for rebellious prisoners, and to prevent suicide. Nothing in my argument changes.
Funny how the Wikipedia article actually says nothing about rebellious prisoners, they cite instead (in your quote) that it is used when prison regulations are violated. In fact, if you were to continue reading the Wikipedia article, you would notice the section on the misuse and ineffectiveness of solitary confinement. So to answer the question you ignored, according to the source you provided, yes solitary confinement is used in cases other than when they're a danger to other prisoners. There's plenty of evidence of misuse. Which of course is corroborated by what this entire thread is about, namely the fact that the Supreme Court ruled that the conditions in California prisons, including but not limited to solitary confinement, constitutes a violation of the 8th amendment.
On July 13 2013 12:27 Jisall wrote: We put prisoners in prison to separate them from society until they are in a position to live in society without causing harm to others. We put prisoners in solitary confinement when they pose a danger to their fellow prisoners. They are alone because they cannot be trusted with other people. The prisoners who go into solitary choose that path. They can play the victim, but until they learn that they are responsible for their own actions, there can be no progress. They knew about the consequences of their actions before they ended up in solitary, and used their actions to demonstrate that they wished to go there. You can pity them all you want, ultimately it was their choice to go there, and you are resisting their will.
What makes you think that people are only put in solitary confinement because they're a danger to other prisoners?
Solitary confinement is a special form of imprisonment in which a prisoner is isolated from any human contact, though often with the exception of members of prison staff. It is sometimes employed as a form of punishment beyond incarceration for a prisoner and has been cited as an additional measure of protection from the inmate or is given for violations of prison regulations. It is also used as a form of protective custody and to implement a suicide watch.
Solitary confinement is used as punishment for rebellious prisoners, and to prevent suicide. Nothing in my argument changes.
So, you don't have an issue with prisoners protesting if solitary confinement is used improperly then, correct?
In a word, no.
If they want to refuse food, that is their prerogative. I only sets them further back on their journey to socialization. The sooner they accept their situation and make the most of their time, the sooner they will get out. There is a reason prisoners get reduced sentences for "good behavior". I don't see solitary confinement being used inappropriately, and I do not see this protest causing any change.
So...if their situation is illegal and violates human rights, they should just accept it?
this thread reminds me of the time Christopher Hitchens thought water-boarding wasn't torture. Then he got water-boarded for 2 seconds and realized it was.
On July 13 2013 12:27 Jisall wrote: We put prisoners in prison to separate them from society until they are in a position to live in society without causing harm to others. We put prisoners in solitary confinement when they pose a danger to their fellow prisoners. They are alone because they cannot be trusted with other people. The prisoners who go into solitary choose that path. They can play the victim, but until they learn that they are responsible for their own actions, there can be no progress. They knew about the consequences of their actions before they ended up in solitary, and used their actions to demonstrate that they wished to go there. You can pity them all you want, ultimately it was their choice to go there, and you are resisting their will.
What makes you think that people are only put in solitary confinement because they're a danger to other prisoners?
Solitary confinement is a special form of imprisonment in which a prisoner is isolated from any human contact, though often with the exception of members of prison staff. It is sometimes employed as a form of punishment beyond incarceration for a prisoner and has been cited as an additional measure of protection from the inmate or is given for violations of prison regulations. It is also used as a form of protective custody and to implement a suicide watch.
Solitary confinement is used as punishment for rebellious prisoners, and to prevent suicide. Nothing in my argument changes.
First of all, saying that someone's just using a strawman argument so you're going to ignore it is ridiculous. Explain what's wrong with it or don't respond. Secondly, really? Your argument is to quote Wikipedia, which speaks against your own argument? You say that it's for prisoners who pose a danger to others in the prison. The very article that you quote says that it can be for "violations of prison regulations." So, you proved yourself wrong, and then proceeded to say that nothing in your argument changes.
If you spent any time researching this beyond looking at Wikipedia, you would see that prisoners can be put into solitary confinement for any reason. It's solely up to the discretion of those in charge at any given prison. From solitarywatch.com/:
[q]Today, inmates can be placed in complete isolation for months or years not only for violent acts but for possessing contraband, testing positive for drug use, ignoring orders, or using profanity. Thousands of prisoners are held in indefinite solitary confinement because they have been named as gang members by other inmates who are rewarded for the information. Others have ended up in solitary because they have untreated mental illnesses, are children in need of “protection,” are gay or transgender, are Muslim, have unsavory political beliefs, or report rape or abuse by prison officials. In Virginia, a group of Rastafarian men were placed in solitary–some for more than a decade–because they refused to cut their hair on religious grounds.[/q]
And this is even without going into the issue of how damaging solitary confinement is, how little it actually does with regard to rehabilitation, and how wrong it is to think that simply threatening people with a punishment will prevent them committing infractions.
On July 11 2013 11:20 a176 wrote: You give them food and a place to sleep. What more do they deserve exactly?
Rehabilitation. If all the correction system does is lock people in a box until they go mad then there is no justice, just revenge.
whats wrong with revenge? If someone killed my friend I wouldn't wanna "rehab" him, I'd want to make his life very shitty
I am sure you are saving other lives from being shitty because of your petty revenge.
And no, I am not only talking about his, also the otherlives that he will ruin if he is not rehabillitated, I am not religious but turning the other cheek solves more problems than your petty revenge will
Honestly, as much as I fucking hate criminals (guilty ones), they have a point. Our prisons are disgusting and don't seem to work all that well at rehabilitating people.
However, if I was in control of running these prisons, those prisoners would also, for damn sure, want to go back to old way and they would look at what they have now as a fucking dream of silk and honey, so maybe they don't have a point after all.
On July 13 2013 10:59 Batibot wrote: You're in prison for doing something against the law. But, what if you did something bad while inside the prison? Do you just get to walk away? Hell, no. You want to punish someone for doing bad things for them to know that what they did is bad. Bad things done should deserve punishment same way as why good things done deserve a reward. Now, if word around the campfire says that you lose your mind when you're in solitary, I hope it instills the bad-things-done-punishment association with the prisoners. You don't get to prison without a justified reason (most of the time). You don't get to solitary confinement without you doing something.
You're in prison to change, not to act tough and stay a bad egg.
Solitary should be reserved for the worst offenses, not used as the default punishment for anything and everything.
On July 13 2013 21:36 Toadesstern wrote: good thing you're not running a prison I guess?
Depends. Are we concerned with rehabilitating prisoners, or are we concerned with making their lives comfortable?
It's the same thing, you can hardly rehab someone if they are not out of a shitty environment, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic but put em around alot of alcohol and alcoholics who's drunk.
There is this funny coincidence with countries treating their criminals well and countries with low crime rates.
I wonder if there might be a relation between the two.
Okay, I'll quit the sarcastic trip, even the screwups who's in there for murder CAN improve, I wouldn't put it past anyone to be forced into a situation where they might commit murder or not seeing a fatal flaw in themselves at a given time, only psychopaths are out of reach and even then they deserve to be treated as humans cus that's what they are, why would you think that they would see the error of their ways if society just keeps pissing on them and noone helps them out of the shit that they're in?
I also saw some guy write something igonrant about how seeing other people isn't a human right. Everyone with a basis knowledge of psychology knows that isolation drives people insane.
God I've no idea why this of all things ticks me off but dammit does ignorance regarding prisons piss me off
[QUOTE]On July 13 2013 22:07 Iplaythings wrote: [QUOTE]On July 13 2013 21:57 sc2superfan101 wrote: [QUOTE]On July 13 2013 21:36 Toadesstern wrote: good thing you're not running a prison I guess?[/QUOTE] even the screwups who's in there for murder CAN improve,[/QUOTE]
Problem is not everyone believes that. I'm not even sure I believe that, especially for prisoners with the most accute mental afflictions. Still, I wonder if the tact did change that we might see some impossible rehabilitations come to light. But it's a near insurmountable effort to get people to change their perspectives on things, as much effort perhaps to get a mass murderer or other max.security prisoner to change their behavior.
On July 13 2013 21:36 Toadesstern wrote: good thing you're not running a prison I guess?
Depends. Are we concerned with rehabilitating prisoners, or are we concerned with making their lives comfortable?
It's the same thing, you can hardly rehab someone if they are not out of a shitty environment, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic but put em around alot of alcohol and alcoholics who's drunk.
No, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic and so you work him so goddamn hard every single day that he doesn't have the energy nor the time to even think about alcohol. Also, you remove anything resembling alcohol or anything that reminds him of alcohol (tattoo removal for all tattoos upon entering prison, uniform enforcement, no unauthorized association, etc.)
Also, rehabilitation is not my only concern, nor should it ever be the sole concern of anyone.
On July 13 2013 21:36 Toadesstern wrote: good thing you're not running a prison I guess?
Depends. Are we concerned with rehabilitating prisoners, or are we concerned with making their lives comfortable?
It's the same thing, you can hardly rehab someone if they are not out of a shitty environment, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic but put em around alot of alcohol and alcoholics who's drunk.
No, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic and so you work him so goddamn hard every single day that he doesn't have the energy nor the time to even think about alcohol. Also, you remove anything resembling alcohol or anything that reminds him of alcohol (tattoo removal for all tattoos upon entering prison, uniform enforcement, no unauthorized association, etc.)
Also, rehabilitation is not my only concern, nor should it ever be the sole concern of anyone.
On July 13 2013 21:36 Toadesstern wrote: good thing you're not running a prison I guess?
Depends. Are we concerned with rehabilitating prisoners, or are we concerned with making their lives comfortable?
It's the same thing, you can hardly rehab someone if they are not out of a shitty environment, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic but put em around alot of alcohol and alcoholics who's drunk.
No, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic and so you work him so goddamn hard every single day that he doesn't have the energy nor the time to even think about alcohol. Also, you remove anything resembling alcohol or anything that reminds him of alcohol (tattoo removal for all tattoos upon entering prison, uniform enforcement, no unauthorized association, etc.)
Also, rehabilitation is not my only concern, nor should it ever be the sole concern of anyone.
What other concerns do you have?
The safety of law-abiding (and non law-abiding) citizens, the general peace and well-being of society itself, and as unpopular as it is: punishment. I think the idea that punishment is synonymous with revenge is nonsensical.
On July 13 2013 21:36 Toadesstern wrote: good thing you're not running a prison I guess?
Depends. Are we concerned with rehabilitating prisoners, or are we concerned with making their lives comfortable?
It's the same thing, you can hardly rehab someone if they are not out of a shitty environment, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic but put em around alot of alcohol and alcoholics who's drunk.
No, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic and so you work him so goddamn hard every single day that he doesn't have the energy nor the time to even think about alcohol. Also, you remove anything resembling alcohol or anything that reminds him of alcohol (tattoo removal for all tattoos upon entering prison, uniform enforcement, no unauthorized association, etc.)
Also, rehabilitation is not my only concern, nor should it ever be the sole concern of anyone.
his point was that you can't expect someone to stop being violent by putting him in a situation that is being violent towards you on purpose. Maybe once to see what it's like from the other side but if you're being treated like an animal from a day to day basis, being tortured (which this thread is about) for the sake of getting your revenge there's really nothing you have to be suprised about if guy-in-question comes out of prison like an animal himself.
So you do agree that violence / torture should be avoided at all costs if possible after all? Because that's what you're trying to get people off of.
On July 13 2013 21:36 Toadesstern wrote: good thing you're not running a prison I guess?
Depends. Are we concerned with rehabilitating prisoners, or are we concerned with making their lives comfortable?
It's the same thing, you can hardly rehab someone if they are not out of a shitty environment, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic but put em around alot of alcohol and alcoholics who's drunk.
No, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic and so you work him so goddamn hard every single day that he doesn't have the energy nor the time to even think about alcohol. Also, you remove anything resembling alcohol or anything that reminds him of alcohol (tattoo removal for all tattoos upon entering prison, uniform enforcement, no unauthorized association, etc.)
Also, rehabilitation is not my only concern, nor should it ever be the sole concern of anyone.
What other concerns do you have?
The safety of law-abiding (and non law-abiding) citizens, the general peace and well-being of society itself, and as unpopular as it is: punishment. I think the idea that punishment is synonymous with revenge is nonsensical.
The first two are basically the same thing. Punishment, to my mind, is definitely only for revenge, but I'm interested to know what other function you think it has?
On July 13 2013 21:36 Toadesstern wrote: good thing you're not running a prison I guess?
Depends. Are we concerned with rehabilitating prisoners, or are we concerned with making their lives comfortable?
It's the same thing, you can hardly rehab someone if they are not out of a shitty environment, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic but put em around alot of alcohol and alcoholics who's drunk.
No, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic and so you work him so goddamn hard every single day that he doesn't have the energy nor the time to even think about alcohol. Also, you remove anything resembling alcohol or anything that reminds him of alcohol (tattoo removal for all tattoos upon entering prison, uniform enforcement, no unauthorized association, etc.)
Also, rehabilitation is not my only concern, nor should it ever be the sole concern of anyone.
his point was that you can't expect someone to stop being violent by putting him in a situation that is being violent towards you on purpose. Maybe once to see what it's like from the other side but if you're being treated like an animal from a day to day basis, being tortured (which this thread is about) for the sake of getting your revenge there's really nothing you have to be suprised about if guy-in-question comes out of prison like an animal himself.
So you do agree that violence / torture should be avoided at all costs if possible after all? Because that's what you're trying to get people off of.
If a prisoner is refusing to follow the rules then something must be done to convince them that breaking the rules will lead to undesirable consequences. If you have a better, more effective way than solitary confinement than that should surely be used instead.
On July 13 2013 21:36 Toadesstern wrote: good thing you're not running a prison I guess?
Depends. Are we concerned with rehabilitating prisoners, or are we concerned with making their lives comfortable?
It's the same thing, you can hardly rehab someone if they are not out of a shitty environment, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic but put em around alot of alcohol and alcoholics who's drunk.
No, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic and so you work him so goddamn hard every single day that he doesn't have the energy nor the time to even think about alcohol. Also, you remove anything resembling alcohol or anything that reminds him of alcohol (tattoo removal for all tattoos upon entering prison, uniform enforcement, no unauthorized association, etc.)
Also, rehabilitation is not my only concern, nor should it ever be the sole concern of anyone.
What other concerns do you have?
The safety of law-abiding (and non law-abiding) citizens, the general peace and well-being of society itself, and as unpopular as it is: punishment. I think the idea that punishment is synonymous with revenge is nonsensical.
The first two are basically the same thing. Punishment, to my mind, is definitely only for revenge, but I'm interested to know what other function you think it has?
I think that punishment is enforced penance, and I think penance is absolutely necessary for the psychological well-being of both the criminal and the victim.
On July 13 2013 21:36 Toadesstern wrote: good thing you're not running a prison I guess?
Depends. Are we concerned with rehabilitating prisoners, or are we concerned with making their lives comfortable?
It's the same thing, you can hardly rehab someone if they are not out of a shitty environment, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic but put em around alot of alcohol and alcoholics who's drunk.
No, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic and so you work him so goddamn hard every single day that he doesn't have the energy nor the time to even think about alcohol. Also, you remove anything resembling alcohol or anything that reminds him of alcohol (tattoo removal for all tattoos upon entering prison, uniform enforcement, no unauthorized association, etc.)
Also, rehabilitation is not my only concern, nor should it ever be the sole concern of anyone.
his point was that you can't expect someone to stop being violent by putting him in a situation that is being violent towards you on purpose. Maybe once to see what it's like from the other side but if you're being treated like an animal from a day to day basis, being tortured (which this thread is about) for the sake of getting your revenge there's really nothing you have to be suprised about if guy-in-question comes out of prison like an animal himself.
So you do agree that violence / torture should be avoided at all costs if possible after all? Because that's what you're trying to get people off of.
If a prisoner is refusing to follow the rules then something must be done to convince them that breaking the rules will lead to undesirable consequences. If you have a better, more effective way than solitary confinement than that should surely be used instead.
again, the whole point of this thread is that solitary confinement is apparently being missused
On July 13 2013 21:36 Toadesstern wrote: good thing you're not running a prison I guess?
Depends. Are we concerned with rehabilitating prisoners, or are we concerned with making their lives comfortable?
It's the same thing, you can hardly rehab someone if they are not out of a shitty environment, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic but put em around alot of alcohol and alcoholics who's drunk.
No, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic and so you work him so goddamn hard every single day that he doesn't have the energy nor the time to even think about alcohol. Also, you remove anything resembling alcohol or anything that reminds him of alcohol (tattoo removal for all tattoos upon entering prison, uniform enforcement, no unauthorized association, etc.)
Also, rehabilitation is not my only concern, nor should it ever be the sole concern of anyone.
What other concerns do you have?
The safety of law-abiding (and non law-abiding) citizens, the general peace and well-being of society itself, and as unpopular as it is: punishment. I think the idea that punishment is synonymous with revenge is nonsensical.
The first two are basically the same thing. Punishment, to my mind, is definitely only for revenge, but I'm interested to know what other function you think it has?
If punishment was for revenge then victims would be the sentencers.
What did you think was the point of the state displacing that role?
On July 13 2013 21:36 Toadesstern wrote: good thing you're not running a prison I guess?
Depends. Are we concerned with rehabilitating prisoners, or are we concerned with making their lives comfortable?
It's the same thing, you can hardly rehab someone if they are not out of a shitty environment, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic but put em around alot of alcohol and alcoholics who's drunk.
No, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic and so you work him so goddamn hard every single day that he doesn't have the energy nor the time to even think about alcohol. Also, you remove anything resembling alcohol or anything that reminds him of alcohol (tattoo removal for all tattoos upon entering prison, uniform enforcement, no unauthorized association, etc.)
Also, rehabilitation is not my only concern, nor should it ever be the sole concern of anyone.
his point was that you can't expect someone to stop being violent by putting him in a situation that is being violent towards you on purpose. Maybe once to see what it's like from the other side but if you're being treated like an animal from a day to day basis, being tortured (which this thread is about) for the sake of getting your revenge there's really nothing you have to be suprised about if guy-in-question comes out of prison like an animal himself.
So you do agree that violence / torture should be avoided at all costs if possible after all? Because that's what you're trying to get people off of.
If a prisoner is refusing to follow the rules then something must be done to convince them that breaking the rules will lead to undesirable consequences. If you have a better, more effective way than solitary confinement than that should surely be used instead.
On July 13 2013 21:36 Toadesstern wrote: good thing you're not running a prison I guess?
Depends. Are we concerned with rehabilitating prisoners, or are we concerned with making their lives comfortable?
It's the same thing, you can hardly rehab someone if they are not out of a shitty environment, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic but put em around alot of alcohol and alcoholics who's drunk.
No, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic and so you work him so goddamn hard every single day that he doesn't have the energy nor the time to even think about alcohol. Also, you remove anything resembling alcohol or anything that reminds him of alcohol (tattoo removal for all tattoos upon entering prison, uniform enforcement, no unauthorized association, etc.)
Also, rehabilitation is not my only concern, nor should it ever be the sole concern of anyone.
What other concerns do you have?
The safety of law-abiding (and non law-abiding) citizens, the general peace and well-being of society itself, and as unpopular as it is: punishment. I think the idea that punishment is synonymous with revenge is nonsensical.
The first two are basically the same thing. Punishment, to my mind, is definitely only for revenge, but I'm interested to know what other function you think it has?
I think that punishment is enforced penance, and I think penance is absolutely necessary for the psychological well-being of both the criminal and the victim.
You are assuming the rules are automatically just, only because they are the rules. But this is very far away from the truth. Just look at the people who are in the prisons. So many are there for victim-less 'crimes'.
Depends. Are we concerned with rehabilitating prisoners, or are we concerned with making their lives comfortable?
Also, rehabilitation is not my only concern, nor should it ever be the sole concern of anyone.
Oh but it should. The current prisons are essentially crime factories. There have been sources provided in this very thread that states people are more likely to continue being criminals after going to prison. That means the prison does not protect you from criminals, it actually makes it worse. You just delay the danger by a few years.
On top of this, we know that the violence in so called "max security" prisons is going to remain mostly the same in spite of all the guards and tazers etc. Is there any evidence that high security has done anything to reduce violence in prisons? I present: http://law.wustl.edu/Journal/22/p125Specter.pdf .This was not a hard find on scholar.
Lets take it one step further. Does anyone have any sources proclaimin any positive effects from solitary confinement or high security prisons in general? Does anyone have any sources where harsher sentences or stricter treatment of criminals had positive effects? Because I have plenty saying the opposite, as do others in this thread.
It seems to me that we are stuck debating gut feelings, which may seem relevant but ultimately arn't. Feelings such as crime deserves punishment. While understandable, these feelings do not belong in a serious debate, especially not when confronted with science that says otherwise.
Nothing changes the past, including punishment. The problem is that punishment negatively implicates the future. If there are people who need criminals to be punished in order to feel good, that is an issue and we should look into it. If that is true, it makes me sad.
Depends. Are we concerned with rehabilitating prisoners, or are we concerned with making their lives comfortable?
Also, rehabilitation is not my only concern, nor should it ever be the sole concern of anyone.
Oh but it should. The current prisons are essentially crime factories. There have been sources provided in this very thread that states people are more likely to continue being criminals after going to prison. That means the prison does not protect you from criminals, it actually makes it worse. You just delay the danger by a few years.
On top of this, we know that the violence in so called "max security" prisons is going to remain mostly the same in spite of all the guards and tazers etc. Is there any evidence that high security has done anything to reduce violence in prisons? I present: http://law.wustl.edu/Journal/22/p125Specter.pdf .This was not a hard find on scholar.
Not a single thing you've brought up here supports your contention that "rehabilitation should be our sole concern". Max security prisons have nothing to do with that contention and don't really belong in a debate about it.
Lets take it one step further. Does anyone have any sources proclaimin any positive effects from solitary confinement or high security prisons in general? Does anyone have any sources where harsher sentences or stricter treatment of criminals had positive effects? Because I have plenty saying the opposite, as do others in this thread.
Harsher sentences and stricter treatment are completely meaningless terms unless we define them specifically. I won't argue for or against them as concepts until I am aware of what, specifically, those terms imply to you and others. Come up with a solid, accepted definition of the words and we can see if I disagree or not, or can find any evidence supporting their application.
Feelings such as crime deserves punishment. While understandable, these feelings do not belong in a serious debate, especially not when confronted with science that says otherwise.
What scientific evidence says that crime does not deserve punishment? The statement: "crime deserves punishment" is a philosophical/moral statement, which is in no way connected to science. (Or at best, only peripherally connected).
Nothing changes the past, including punishment. The problem is that punishment negatively implicates the future. If there are people who need criminals to be punished in order to feel good, that is an issue and we should look into it. If that is true, it makes me sad.
This is so stupid. Nothing changes the past, so let's just say 'you killed someone, that's bad, but we can't change it, so since going to prison will not resurrect the poor guy, just behave well next time ok? of course we trust you, we believe in human rights.'
The statement: "our only concern should be rehabilitation" is so patently absurd that it can be rejected almost out of hand. Obviously a respect of human rights and basic dignity of even the most horrific criminals should also be a primary concern, otherwise any and all efforts that could conceivably lead to "rehabilitation" up to and including invasive medical/psychological procedures would be morally justified until they are either deemed to be effective or non-effective at rehabilitation. Not to mention the necessary arguing over what "rehabilitated" truly means.
Granting that rehabilitation is not our sole concern, we then come to the question of what our concerns should be and to what degree of importance or weight do those concerns have in relation to each other.
On July 14 2013 00:37 sc2superfan101 wrote: I should elaborate:
The statement: "our only concern should be rehabilitation" is so patently absurd that it can be rejected almost out of hand. Obviously a respect of human rights and basic dignity of even the most horrific criminals should also be a primary concern, otherwise any and all efforts that could conceivably lead to "rehabilitation" up to and including invasive medical/psychological procedures would be morally justified until they are either deemed to be effective or non-effective at rehabilitation. Not to mention the necessary arguing over what "rehabilitated" truly means.
Granting that rehabilitation is not our sole concern, we then come to the question of what our concerns should be and to what degree of importance or weight do those concerns have in relation to each other.
No! They didn't have the primary concern themselves, when they destroyed lifes/families. When they killed/raped/did the horrific crime, it's like they signed a paper where it's written 'I'm not a human being. I'm a beast.'
On July 14 2013 00:37 sc2superfan101 wrote: I should elaborate:
The statement: "our only concern should be rehabilitation" is so patently absurd that it can be rejected almost out of hand. Obviously a respect of human rights and basic dignity of even the most horrific criminals should also be a primary concern, otherwise any and all efforts that could conceivably lead to "rehabilitation" up to and including invasive medical/psychological procedures would be morally justified until they are either deemed to be effective or non-effective at rehabilitation. Not to mention the necessary arguing over what "rehabilitated" truly means.
Granting that rehabilitation is not our sole concern, we then come to the question of what our concerns should be and to what degree of importance or weight do those concerns have in relation to each other.
No! They didn't have the primary concern themselves, when they destroyed lifes/families. When they killed/raped/did the horrific crime, it's like they signed a paper where it's written 'I'm not a human being. I'm a beast.'
They have not done any such thing. First, let us deal with the question of whether they have any rights whatsoever. It would be clear to most people that they do. Otherwise we could justify decades of constant physical torture and maiming for someone committing a murder/rape. Only the most disturbed and depraved mind would support removing a man's appendages and limbs one by one without anesthetic over an extended period of time, no matter what said man did or didn't do.
Now, are they no more than beasts? We don't torture beasts. So I suppose that grants them some rights. However, we do put beasts down quite often. I suppose you would support lethally injecting any convicted murderer once they've begun costing us too much money? And what if they are exonerated after we've done so? There have been cases of people being convicted of a crime and then revealed to be innocent. Respect for human rights should not be ignored just because the depraved showed no such respect. Otherwise we have become the very thing we're "fighting".
On July 14 2013 00:37 sc2superfan101 wrote: I should elaborate:
The statement: "our only concern should be rehabilitation" is so patently absurd that it can be rejected almost out of hand. Obviously a respect of human rights and basic dignity of even the most horrific criminals should also be a primary concern, otherwise any and all efforts that could conceivably lead to "rehabilitation" up to and including invasive medical/psychological procedures would be morally justified until they are either deemed to be effective or non-effective at rehabilitation. Not to mention the necessary arguing over what "rehabilitated" truly means.
Granting that rehabilitation is not our sole concern, we then come to the question of what our concerns should be and to what degree of importance or weight do those concerns have in relation to each other.
No! They didn't have the primary concern themselves, when they destroyed lifes/families. When they killed/raped/did the horrific crime, it's like they signed a paper where it's written 'I'm not a human being. I'm a beast.'
They have not done any such thing. First, let us deal with the question of whether they have any rights whatsoever. It would be clear to most people that they do. Otherwise we could justify decades of constant physical torture and maiming for someone committing a murder/rape. Only the most disturbed and depraved mind would support removing a man's appendages and limbs one by one without anesthetic over an extended period of time, no matter what said man did or didn't do.
Now, are they no more than beasts? We don't torture beasts. So I suppose that grants them some rights. However, we do put beasts down quite often. I suppose you would support lethally injecting any convicted murderer once they've begun costing us too much money? And what if they are exonerated after we've done so? There have been cases of people being convicted of a crime and then revealed to be innocent. Respect for human rights should not be ignored just because the depraved showed no such respect. Otherwise we have become the very thing we're "fighting".
First, I don't think that any prison 'removes appendages and limbs one by one without anesthetic over an extended period of time.' I'm not talking about torture. I'm talking about you commit a crime, you get X years for that crime, you go in prison, you get food/water and basic needs (toilet, bed, books if you want to read etc). Simple as that.
I'm not much of a fan of death penalty, actually. I think it's too much of an easy way out. Your question, however, has a simple response. A society has to work on the wellness of the most people possible. So yes, there have been cases of innocent people getting executed, but it's a number game. Do you prefer an innocent to die or more than one innocent to die (if the guy comes out of prison and does bad stuff)? I think a society has to go by numbers. Also, I think that nowadays with all the technologies, trials are becoming quite accurate. Mistakes will always exist, but with DNA and other things it's WAY less than in the past.
On July 13 2013 21:36 Toadesstern wrote: good thing you're not running a prison I guess?
Depends. Are we concerned with rehabilitating prisoners, or are we concerned with making their lives comfortable?
It's the same thing, you can hardly rehab someone if they are not out of a shitty environment, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic but put em around alot of alcohol and alcoholics who's drunk.
No, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic and so you work him so goddamn hard every single day that he doesn't have the energy nor the time to even think about alcohol. Also, you remove anything resembling alcohol or anything that reminds him of alcohol (tattoo removal for all tattoos upon entering prison, uniform enforcement, no unauthorized association, etc.)
Also, rehabilitation is not my only concern, nor should it ever be the sole concern of anyone.
his point was that you can't expect someone to stop being violent by putting him in a situation that is being violent towards you on purpose. Maybe once to see what it's like from the other side but if you're being treated like an animal from a day to day basis, being tortured (which this thread is about) for the sake of getting your revenge there's really nothing you have to be suprised about if guy-in-question comes out of prison like an animal himself.
So you do agree that violence / torture should be avoided at all costs if possible after all? Because that's what you're trying to get people off of.
If a prisoner is refusing to follow the rules then something must be done to convince them that breaking the rules will lead to undesirable consequences. If you have a better, more effective way than solitary confinement than that should surely be used instead.
On July 13 2013 21:36 Toadesstern wrote: good thing you're not running a prison I guess?
Depends. Are we concerned with rehabilitating prisoners, or are we concerned with making their lives comfortable?
It's the same thing, you can hardly rehab someone if they are not out of a shitty environment, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic but put em around alot of alcohol and alcoholics who's drunk.
No, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic and so you work him so goddamn hard every single day that he doesn't have the energy nor the time to even think about alcohol. Also, you remove anything resembling alcohol or anything that reminds him of alcohol (tattoo removal for all tattoos upon entering prison, uniform enforcement, no unauthorized association, etc.)
Also, rehabilitation is not my only concern, nor should it ever be the sole concern of anyone.
What other concerns do you have?
The safety of law-abiding (and non law-abiding) citizens, the general peace and well-being of society itself, and as unpopular as it is: punishment. I think the idea that punishment is synonymous with revenge is nonsensical.
The first two are basically the same thing. Punishment, to my mind, is definitely only for revenge, but I'm interested to know what other function you think it has?
I think that punishment is enforced penance, and I think penance is absolutely necessary for the psychological well-being of both the criminal and the victim.
What is the point of penance if not rehabilitation?
I'm asking for a moral argument to show that X commits immoral action/crime implies X should be punished even if X could otherwise be (ethically) perfectly rehabilitated.
It seems to me that the goal of the U.S. prison system cannot be to rehabilitate and lower the amount of dangerous criminals in our society unless they are simply failing to accomplish that goal at an astronomical rate.
Solitary confinement is one symptom of a U.S. prison system that is more like a business that provides punishment and revenge as opposed to an institution that seeks to improve society.
It violates all emotional logic that treating a prisoner well might be the most productive option, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be considered. I wonder if this hunger strike will accomplish anything, I can imagine the backlash that would occur from many people if the prison system "gave in" to the prisoners even if it is for a good cause.
Not a single thing you've brought up here supports your contention that "rehabilitation should be our sole concern". Max security prisons have nothing to do with that contention and don't really belong in a debate about it.
If the purpose is to protect the public, you either need to hold the prisoners there for life, or to rehabilitate them. If you are gonna hold them for life, why not just kill them outright? Imprisoning someone with no chance of release is cruel if you ask me.
Harsher sentences and stricter treatment are completely meaningless terms unless we define them specifically. I won't argue for or against them as concepts until I am aware of what, specifically, those terms imply to you and others. Come up with a solid, accepted definition of the words and we can see if I disagree or not, or can find any evidence supporting their application.
I don't think that this is a meaningful thing to do. How would you even go about doing that? My point is that the US has very long sentences for pretty much all sorts of crime and there are people whom advocate more still. Obviously there is more to it than a direct comparison to other countries, but the length of the sentences do not seem to have any effect at all on the crime rates.
Just for reference, the maximum sentence for murder(1) in sweden is 18 years. Minimum is 10(can't find averages). Max in the US is death and average is over 20 years(according to random guy on internet). What a swedish inmate can expect is something like this:
I found a debate on a forum whether or not they would allow playstation 2&3 now or only ps1. Suffice to say, prisoners are not suffering.
I would call this objectively shorter and less severe a punishment than what the equivalent would be like in california. It also happens to produce a lower recidivism (40% ish, only source I found was in swedish).
Overall though, the bigger point I want to make is not that long sentences are bad, but rather that punishment on a whole is much less important than what happens before a crime is even commited. At least that is the only explanation I have as to why some countries are completely different to others in terms of crime rates.
What scientific evidence says that crime does not deserve punishment? The statement: "crime deserves punishment" is a philosophical/moral statement, which is in no way connected to science. (Or at best, only peripherally connected).
That is not how science works. We do not prove all the things that aren't, we prove the things that are. You are making the claim, you provide the evidence. I am claiming that punishment does not reduce crime nearly as linearly as you'd expect. http://www.wsipp.wa.gov/rptfiles/incarcrecid.pdf
While this is an old report, the things debated have not really changed. It clearly states with multiple refrences that longer sentences tend to increase recidivism, and never decrease it. I don't know what causes crime in the first place, but putting people behind bars does not really rehabilitate them, nor does it deter others from commiting crime. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=223148
Morals do not have high ground in an argument if you ask me. From my side, there is no discernable positive benefit from having punishment, at least not of this magnitude. Then it makes no sense to promote that kind of system. Even if I feel like we should.
On July 14 2013 00:37 sc2superfan101 wrote: I should elaborate:
The statement: "our only concern should be rehabilitation" is so patently absurd that it can be rejected almost out of hand. Obviously a respect of human rights and basic dignity of even the most horrific criminals should also be a primary concern, otherwise any and all efforts that could conceivably lead to "rehabilitation" up to and including invasive medical/psychological procedures would be morally justified until they are either deemed to be effective or non-effective at rehabilitation. Not to mention the necessary arguing over what "rehabilitated" truly means.
Granting that rehabilitation is not our sole concern, we then come to the question of what our concerns should be and to what degree of importance or weight do those concerns have in relation to each other.
No! They didn't have the primary concern themselves, when they destroyed lifes/families. When they killed/raped/did the horrific crime, it's like they signed a paper where it's written 'I'm not a human being. I'm a beast.'
They have not done any such thing. First, let us deal with the question of whether they have any rights whatsoever. It would be clear to most people that they do. Otherwise we could justify decades of constant physical torture and maiming for someone committing a murder/rape. Only the most disturbed and depraved mind would support removing a man's appendages and limbs one by one without anesthetic over an extended period of time, no matter what said man did or didn't do.
Now, are they no more than beasts? We don't torture beasts. So I suppose that grants them some rights. However, we do put beasts down quite often. I suppose you would support lethally injecting any convicted murderer once they've begun costing us too much money? And what if they are exonerated after we've done so? There have been cases of people being convicted of a crime and then revealed to be innocent. Respect for human rights should not be ignored just because the depraved showed no such respect. Otherwise we have become the very thing we're "fighting".
A society has to work on the wellness of the most people possible. So yes, there have been cases of innocent people getting executed, but it's a number game. Do you prefer an innocent to die or more than one innocent to die (if the guy comes out of prison and does bad stuff)? I think a society has to go by numbers. Also, I think that nowadays with all the technologies, trials are becoming quite accurate. Mistakes will always exist, but with DNA and other things it's WAY less than in the past.
Where does this utilitarian model stop? I know this is a bit of an extreme example, but let's say you have a population of 50 people. If we kill 5 of them to ensure that we get at least a certain number of the guilty, why not just kill 6? Why not 7? Why not 49? Oh, 1 guy that we drive crazy in solitary to serve as punishment for the rest of his cell? No biggie. I fundamentally disagree with that utilitarian model, but I also don't think it works logically.
To your second point, sure mistakes don't get made, but the other day, a judge was texting the prosecutor to feed information that would ensure a guilty charge. This happened in Texas. So a much purer, less mistaken-prone judicial system assumes that the "law-abiding" & law-enacting pieces of our society are also acting in a moral and ethical way.
If we accept that the legal system should be permitted to execute possibly innocent people, then the legal system loses all credibility in prosecuting actual murderers.
On July 14 2013 05:12 Shiori wrote: If we accept that the legal system should be permitted to execute possibly innocent people, then the legal system loses all credibility in prosecuting actual murderers.
thank you for saying that. That's a much better point actually.
On July 14 2013 05:12 Shiori wrote: If we accept that the legal system should be permitted to execute possibly innocent people, then the legal system loses all credibility in prosecuting actual murderers.
Why? What is it about execution that makes a system lose all credibility? Regardless of what punishment a penal/judicial system uses, it will have the same accuracy in valid convictions. No matter how good a judicial system that exists, there will always be false positives, and while it's certainly critical to minimize them, one has to nonetheless accept it.
That said, on the subject of death penalty, I think there should be little-to no extra judicial work involved in them but rather take into effect for repeat offenders, such as getting convicted of armed robbery or murder in 3 separate trials.
On July 14 2013 05:12 Shiori wrote: If we accept that the legal system should be permitted to execute possibly innocent people, then the legal system loses all credibility in prosecuting actual murderers.
Why? What is it about execution that makes a system lose all credibility? Regardless of what punishment a penal/judicial system uses, it will have the same accuracy in valid convictions. No matter how good a judicial system that exists, there will always be false positives, and while it's certainly critical to minimize them, one has to nonetheless accept it.
That said, on the subject of death penalty, I think there should be little-to no extra judicial work involved in them but rather take into effect for repeat offenders, such as getting convicted of armed robbery or murder in 3 separate trials.
Executions are dumb no matter how you argue them. There is no logical argument that can be made for them that does not center around vengeance for the harmed party, which is not what justice is about.
Executions: Have a national 2% error rate despite a massive and lengthy appeal process Cost more than life in prison due to the lengthy appeal process Have no effect on crime and have no evidence to support they deter any criminal activity.
The only reason anyone puts forward for executions is “closure for the victims and their families” which is not a good enough reason to execution 2 innocent people out of 100. There is no way to you can argue for the death penalty without arguing based on emotional reasons or retribution. There is no rational argument that can be made that says it benefits people in any way.
Must've missed this the first time around. Any updates on this story? The way that solitary confinement is done in these prisons in horrible in the sense that you lose most sensory input and start to lose it when you aren't interacting with many people. I can understand wanting to teach someone a lesson but if you plan to put them in solitary confinement, at least give them some stuff to pass the time and don't do it months on end but a week or so at best. Sadly, I don't think much will change :/
On July 14 2013 05:12 Shiori wrote: If we accept that the legal system should be permitted to execute possibly innocent people, then the legal system loses all credibility in prosecuting actual murderers.
Why? What is it about execution that makes a system lose all credibility? Regardless of what punishment a penal/judicial system uses, it will have the same accuracy in valid convictions. No matter how good a judicial system that exists, there will always be false positives, and while it's certainly critical to minimize them, one has to nonetheless accept it.
That said, on the subject of death penalty, I think there should be little-to no extra judicial work involved in them but rather take into effect for repeat offenders, such as getting convicted of armed robbery or murder in 3 separate trials.
Executions are dumb no matter how you argue them. There is no logical argument that can be made for them that does not center around vengeance for the harmed party, which is not what justice is about.
Executions: Have a national 2% error rate despite a massive and lengthy appeal process Cost more than life in prison due to the lengthy appeal process Have no effect on crime and have no evidence to support they deter any criminal activity.
The only reason anyone puts forward for executions is “closure for the victims and their families” which is not a good enough reason to execution 2 innocent people out of 100. There is no way to you can argue for the death penalty without arguing based on emotional reasons or retribution. There is no rational argument that can be made that says it benefits people in any way.
It makes absolutely no sense to take the flaws of the current system and use them as criticisms of proposed changes.
vengeance really can't be used as an excuse for execution? (guilty without doubt, though this may vary in the real world) not a in a legal sense, but in moral sense.
in my honest opinion to pass off execution as some immoral-nonjustice-useless-unnecessary, seems very pussy-hippy-treehugging-lovepreaching-bullshit. but hey, everyone is different.
Execution really doesn't make sense to me. Neither does house and feeding criminals though. It's like an adult time out. Go sit in the corner and thing about your actions. I'd rather have a 3 strikes your deported to china. Out of sight out of mind. Flawless system right there
Prison should be a place where people go after they get caught where they can be happy, eat well, and be treated like great citizens. I can't believe all their comforts aren't being met.
We should pay for them to have sleep # beds and 60 inch 1080p tv's with xbox's, that way they can regret their actions.
You stole from people and got caught? Here, go take a vacation for a year and think about what you did. rofl.....
On July 26 2013 07:32 MostGroce wrote: Prison should be a place where people go after they get caught where they can be happy, eat well, and be treated like great citizens. I can't believe all their comforts aren't being met.
We should pay for them to have sleep # beds and 60 inch 1080p tv's with xbox's, that way they can regret their actions.
You stole from people and got caught? Here, go take a vacation for a year and think about what you did. rofl.....
There's actually a middle way between xboxs and torture.
On July 26 2013 07:18 albis wrote: Execution really doesn't make sense to me. Neither does house and feeding criminals though. It's like an adult time out. Go sit in the corner and thing about your actions. I'd rather have a 3 strikes your deported to china. Out of sight out of mind. Flawless system right there
I don't think china wants all our criminals. This would not fly with international relations. But I kinda agree with the sentiment. I wish we had an australia we could send all the criminals to.
On July 26 2013 07:18 albis wrote: Execution really doesn't make sense to me. Neither does house and feeding criminals though. It's like an adult time out. Go sit in the corner and thing about your actions. I'd rather have a 3 strikes your deported to china. Out of sight out of mind. Flawless system right there
I don't think china wants all our criminals. This would not fly with international relations. But I kinda agree with the sentiment. I wish we had an australia we could send all the criminals to.
So you're kind of advertising artificially creating rogue states. Seems especially odd comming from someone from the US to be honest.
On July 26 2013 07:32 MostGroce wrote: Prison should be a place where people go after they get caught where they can be happy, eat well, and be treated like great citizens. I can't believe all their comforts aren't being met.
We should pay for them to have sleep # beds and 60 inch 1080p tv's with xbox's, that way they can regret their actions.
You stole from people and got caught? Here, go take a vacation for a year and think about what you did. rofl.....
There's actually a middle way between xboxs and torture.
Its just rare you see that middle way. Either the prisons are so filthy and dangerous its pretty much inhuman to sentence people to such a place. Carandiru prison was such a place before it got shut down.
Or, the "prisons" are so luxuries that you don't get a sense of punishement, or those close to the victim don't get a sense of justice. Its supposed to be a place where criminals don't want to come back to, but if they don't offer anything but nice beds, HD TV, access to internet etc., then why be afraid of 1-3 years in prison every time you get caught?
Its hard to make a prison where every need gets met, because we want to rehabilitate people, but at the same time, give out exact justice.
Prissoners have it way too easy they have developed there own society behind bars that indoctrinates each other to be worse then when they entered. there should be more solitary confinement and straight up brainwashing to reenter them into sosciety. also if i was in prison solitary and unlimited books sounds allot better then surprise butsex.
On July 14 2013 05:12 Shiori wrote: If we accept that the legal system should be permitted to execute possibly innocent people, then the legal system loses all credibility in prosecuting actual murderers.
Why? What is it about execution that makes a system lose all credibility? Regardless of what punishment a penal/judicial system uses, it will have the same accuracy in valid convictions. No matter how good a judicial system that exists, there will always be false positives, and while it's certainly critical to minimize them, one has to nonetheless accept it.
That said, on the subject of death penalty, I think there should be little-to no extra judicial work involved in them but rather take into effect for repeat offenders, such as getting convicted of armed robbery or murder in 3 separate trials.
Because if we come to accept false positives, say just one, why stop there? What would stop that society from then moving up to 5 or 6? It's slippery.
Also, would you still feel that way if it was a family member? That's not an argument, but I'm curious about how you'd feel.
On July 26 2013 07:32 MostGroce wrote: Prison should be a place where people go after they get caught where they can be happy, eat well, and be treated like great citizens. I can't believe all their comforts aren't being met.
We should pay for them to have sleep # beds and 60 inch 1080p tv's with xbox's, that way they can regret their actions.
You stole from people and got caught? Here, go take a vacation for a year and think about what you did. rofl.....
There's actually a middle way between xboxs and torture.
Its just rare you see that middle way. Either the prisons are so filthy and dangerous its pretty much inhuman to sentence people to such a place. Carandiru prison was such a place before it got shut down.
Or, the "prisons" are so luxuries that you don't get a sense of punishement, or those close to the victim don't get a sense of justice. Its supposed to be a place where criminals don't want to come back to, but if they don't offer anything but nice beds, HD TV, access to internet etc., then why be afraid of 1-3 years in prison every time you get caught?
Because if we come to accept false positives, say just one, why stop there? What would stop that society from then moving up to 5 or 6? It's slippery.
Also, would you still feel that way if it was a family member? That's not an argument, but I'm curious about how you'd feel.
You misunderstand his point, but I get what you're saying. The correct counter-argument would be that false positives that result in execution cannot be accepted in the same way that false positives that result in less extreme forms of punishment can be because unlike the latter, the former cannot be undone. Yes, if you spend ten years in prison due to a false conviction, that's crappy, but at least the state can compensate you for it. If you get executed due to a false conviction, there's no way to fix that at all.
Because if we come to accept false positives, say just one, why stop there? What would stop that society from then moving up to 5 or 6? It's slippery.
Also, would you still feel that way if it was a family member? That's not an argument, but I'm curious about how you'd feel.
You misunderstand his point, but I get what you're saying. The correct counter-argument would be that false positives that result in execution cannot be accepted in the same way that false positives that result in less extreme forms of punishment can be because unlike the latter, the former cannot be undone. Yes, if you spend ten years in prison due to a false conviction, that's crappy, but at least the state can compensate you for it. If you get executed due to a false conviction, there's no way to fix that at all.
Do states compensate for false convictions? Can they be sued?
Because if we come to accept false positives, say just one, why stop there? What would stop that society from then moving up to 5 or 6? It's slippery.
Also, would you still feel that way if it was a family member? That's not an argument, but I'm curious about how you'd feel.
You misunderstand his point, but I get what you're saying. The correct counter-argument would be that false positives that result in execution cannot be accepted in the same way that false positives that result in less extreme forms of punishment can be because unlike the latter, the former cannot be undone. Yes, if you spend ten years in prison due to a false conviction, that's crappy, but at least the state can compensate you for it. If you get executed due to a false conviction, there's no way to fix that at all.
Do states compensate for false convictions? Can they be sued?
You have to apply for it, and it's not given out to everyone who has their sentence annulled, but yes you can get compensation and no, you don't have to sue to get it.
I think it's capped at $500k in the US for under 10 years incarceration, and $1m for over 10 years.
Justice is neither punishment, nor rehabilitation. It is restitution for the victim. What makes crime so bad is not that there are criminals, but that crime causes actual harm to victims, and it is the harmed victim who should be at the forefront of the criminal justice system. Obviously we cannot erase some crimes, but we can at least try to do what we can to minimize the harm done.
Western culture completely forgets about and discards the victim. The victim is seen as a merely a piece of evidence in a trial, while all the focus is on the criminal. How to judge the criminal, how to treat the criminal, how to rehabilitate the criminal. Threads such as these reveal that distinction.
Restitution to the victim should be the primary concern, deterrence and punishment should be secondary priorities. Any money that the government procures through prison-based work or industries should be used primarily to compensate the victims, and restitution should also be a factor in probation or release of a criminal.
What about other basic rights that victims should have in our legal system? The right to be present, to be consulted, and to be heard during the criminal proceedings. The right to have a say in release or plea negotiations. The right to confer with prosecutors or the court to make their desires known. The right to be informed of all the criminal proceedings, and informed of release or transfer.
We need a victim oriented criminal justice system, where all of these victim rights would be viewed as self evident instead of forgotten. And this applies to the media as well. Instead of nonstop coverage of the psychopath, how about coverage of the suffering individuals and families, or the heroes who lend a helping hand? Obviously deterrence and recidivism are important to prevent more victims in the future, but we don't need to disregard restitution and victims rights to achieve that end.
On July 26 2013 16:07 Artax wrote: Justice is neither punishment, nor rehabilitation. It is restitution for the victim. What makes crime so bad is not that there are criminals, but that crime causes actual harm to victims, and it is the harmed victim who should be at the forefront of the criminal justice system. Obviously we cannot erase some crimes, but we can at least try to do what we can to minimize the harm done.
Western culture completely forgets about and discards the victim. The victim is seen as a merely a piece of evidence in a trial, while all the focus is on the criminal. How to judge the criminal, how to treat the criminal, how to rehabilitate the criminal. Threads such as these reveal that distinction.
Restitution to the victim should be the primary concern, deterrence and punishment should be secondary priorities. Any money that the government procures through prison-based work or industries should be used primarily to compensate the victims, and restitution should also be a factor in probation or release of a criminal.
What about other basic rights that victims should have in our legal system? The right to be present, to be consulted, and to be heard during the criminal proceedings. The right to have a say in release or plea negotiations. The right to confer with prosecutors or the court to make their desires known. The right to be informed of all the criminal proceedings, and informed of release or transfer.
We need a victim oriented criminal justice system, where all of these victim rights would be viewed as self evident instead of forgotten. And this applies to the media as well. Instead of nonstop coverage of the psychopath, how about coverage of the suffering individuals and families, or the heroes who lend a helping hand? Obviously deterrence and recidivism are important to prevent more victims in the future, but we don't need to disregard restitution and victims rights to achieve that end.
Sure, if you want a system that drains public money, fills prisons, and creates criminals that are guaranteed to re-offend, by all means keep pushing forward with a system that has failed time and time again.
Why on earth should they be allowed to demand anything when they are behind bars. Yes they should not live without the basics (Food/Water/Toilets/Shower) but anything on top of that is all a plus. There are people who are homeless who have done nothing wrong and live without those 4 things! Why right do people who have broken the law and chosen to do things that are wrong, be able to demand a better lifestyle on the inside!
Yes i can see that "Excessive" solitary confinement is a problem, however im pretty sure Solitary confinement is only used when they have broken rules again inside the prison? Not done to them because they haven't done anything? They don't just take it in turns to put people in solitary confinement everyday. Maybe they need to look into the time and how long they are kept in confinement, but they sure shouldn't stop it, or what is the disadvantage or punishment for being in prison and to break the rules, there needs to be discipline, that is how they are going to get fixed.
My opinion is to cut down the length of time they are in confinement for if it is deemed bad for your mental health over long periods. But not remove it completely or there will be no punishment for those who break the rules of prisons!
I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
in most countries, those people werent in jail in the first place.
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
The problem is that laws (at least in the US) are way too strict. It is very difficult to not break the law. Over half the people in prison are there for drug crimes which didn't actually hurt anyone else, do you really think that more than 1% of the US population are really criminals who need to be locked up? When there are over 5,000 laws just at the federal level, how are you possibly supposed to be sure to know what you can and can't do?
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
The problem is that laws (at least in the US) are way too strict. It is very difficult to not break the law. Over half the people in prison are there for drug crimes which didn't actually hurt anyone else, do you really think that more than 1% of the US population are really criminals who need to be locked up? When there are over 5,000 laws just at the federal level, how are you possibly supposed to be sure to know what you can and can't do?
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
The problem is that laws (at least in the US) are way too strict. It is very difficult to not break the law. Over half the people in prison are there for drug crimes which didn't actually hurt anyone else, do you really think that more than 1% of the US population are really criminals who need to be locked up? When there are over 5,000 laws just at the federal level, how are you possibly supposed to be sure to know what you can and can't do?
The countless laws that you don't know about and don't require you to know about them to be convicted, or for you to not have knowledge. Like you sleep with a girl who says she is 18 but she isn't really 18 and her parents find out and press charges. Or you violate some law that is created after you made decision relevent to it, like the guy who bought a gun and then 5 years later violated the new law against possession of the gun. Or you open a new business and you don't have the appropriate size windows or tiling or something and violate a regulation you've never heard of. Or you bring a knife somewhere and end up in an area banning knives for some reason without knowing it.
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
The problem is that laws (at least in the US) are way too strict. It is very difficult to not break the law. Over half the people in prison are there for drug crimes which didn't actually hurt anyone else, do you really think that more than 1% of the US population are really criminals who need to be locked up? When there are over 5,000 laws just at the federal level, how are you possibly supposed to be sure to know what you can and can't do?
The countless laws that you don't know about and don't require you to know about them to be convicted, or for you to not have knowledge. Like you sleep with a girl who says she is 18 but she isn't really 18 and her parents find out and press charges. Or you violate some law that is created after you made decision relevent to it, like the guy who bought a gun and then 5 years later violated the new law against possession of the gun. Or you open a new business and you don't have the appropriate size windows or tiling or something and violate a regulation you've never heard of. Or you bring a knife somewhere and end up in an area banning knives for some reason without knowing it.
Show me where someone was sent to prison for having the wrong size windows at their place of business.
I hope he actually wanted to talk about how you end up in prison very quick in the US for what many other countries would consider "small" crimes. Which is afaik the truth?
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
The problem is that laws (at least in the US) are way too strict. It is very difficult to not break the law. Over half the people in prison are there for drug crimes which didn't actually hurt anyone else, do you really think that more than 1% of the US population are really criminals who need to be locked up? When there are over 5,000 laws just at the federal level, how are you possibly supposed to be sure to know what you can and can't do?
Unfortunately in NYC, there are a couple precincts who have been accussed of unlawful arrests in order to bolster up those numbers. Also, racial profiling for small amounts of marijuana possession are also increasing prison sizes.
"Inmates at prisons throughout the state are still refusing meals to protest conditions for gang members held in solitary confinement at Pelican Bay State Prison near Eureka.
But the number of participants has continuously decreased since the hunger strike first started more than two weeks ago, prison officials said.
On Wednesday 707 inmates at 10 California prisons were on a hunger strike, said Jeffrey Callison, a spokesman for California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation. That's down from the 12,421 inmates on July 11.
About 30,000 inmates refused state-issued breakfast and lunch on July 8 when rumors of the strike started circulating. But it was not recognized as an official protest until a few days later because CDCR does not consider an inmate to be on a hunger strike until he or she has missed nine consecutive meals."
If you think every American prisoner deserves to be in prison, you must think Americans are inherently more evil than other nationalities...
We lock up too many non-violent offenders. It's an absolutely disgusting way to treat people. It's probably our biggest hypocrisy, calling ourselves land of the free, when we lock up more of our own citizens than any other country. And it solves nothing.
Solitary confinement doesn't have to be completely dire. If we let the prisoners bring books with them, cards, or other forms of mild stimulation. But even that line of thinking goes against the grain of our prison-system's way of thinking it seems. We just have some major self-righteous d-bags running our prison-system.
honestly, yes they have rights, but they gave up those rights when they committed a crime. Let them hunger strike. Why should i have pity for them when that murder or that the thief robbed or killed my friend. No...... fuck that.
I don't think they should be treated better. After all, we - citizens that obey the law have to pay for their living in prison. Why would anyone want to pay more?
On July 27 2013 00:15 .SCATesteR wrote: honestly, yes they have rights, but they gave up those rights when they committed a crime. Let them hunger strike. Why should i have pity for them when that murder or that the thief robbed or killed my friend. No...... fuck that.
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
The problem is that laws (at least in the US) are way too strict. It is very difficult to not break the law. Over half the people in prison are there for drug crimes which didn't actually hurt anyone else, do you really think that more than 1% of the US population are really criminals who need to be locked up? When there are over 5,000 laws just at the federal level, how are you possibly supposed to be sure to know what you can and can't do?
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
The problem is that laws (at least in the US) are way too strict. It is very difficult to not break the law. Over half the people in prison are there for drug crimes which didn't actually hurt anyone else, do you really think that more than 1% of the US population are really criminals who need to be locked up? When there are over 5,000 laws just at the federal level, how are you possibly supposed to be sure to know what you can and can't do?
Unfortunately in NYC, there are a couple precincts who have been accussed of unlawful arrests in order to bolster up those numbers. Also, racial profiling for small amounts of marijuana possession are also increasing prison sizes.
"Inmates at prisons throughout the state are still refusing meals to protest conditions for gang members held in solitary confinement at Pelican Bay State Prison near Eureka.
But the number of participants has continuously decreased since the hunger strike first started more than two weeks ago, prison officials said.
On Wednesday 707 inmates at 10 California prisons were on a hunger strike, said Jeffrey Callison, a spokesman for California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation. That's down from the 12,421 inmates on July 11.
About 30,000 inmates refused state-issued breakfast and lunch on July 8 when rumors of the strike started circulating. But it was not recognized as an official protest until a few days later because CDCR does not consider an inmate to be on a hunger strike until he or she has missed nine consecutive meals."
Speaking to the bolded part of this post.....
Don't buy/sell drugs and they can't arrest you for drug possession. I will never understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp.
All I hear is a bunch of spoiled brats complaining because they can't do what they want. Before you start talking about how harmless marijuana is, I'd ask that you do some research on the atrocities of the drug cartels in Mexico. Apparently some people believe their right to get high is more important than the safety and well being of the innocent victims of the drug cartels.
I wonder if we'll get a tax credit for the food we are paying for that they are not eating.
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
The problem is that laws (at least in the US) are way too strict. It is very difficult to not break the law. Over half the people in prison are there for drug crimes which didn't actually hurt anyone else, do you really think that more than 1% of the US population are really criminals who need to be locked up? When there are over 5,000 laws just at the federal level, how are you possibly supposed to be sure to know what you can and can't do?
Unfortunately in NYC, there are a couple precincts who have been accussed of unlawful arrests in order to bolster up those numbers. Also, racial profiling for small amounts of marijuana possession are also increasing prison sizes.
"Inmates at prisons throughout the state are still refusing meals to protest conditions for gang members held in solitary confinement at Pelican Bay State Prison near Eureka.
But the number of participants has continuously decreased since the hunger strike first started more than two weeks ago, prison officials said.
On Wednesday 707 inmates at 10 California prisons were on a hunger strike, said Jeffrey Callison, a spokesman for California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation. That's down from the 12,421 inmates on July 11.
About 30,000 inmates refused state-issued breakfast and lunch on July 8 when rumors of the strike started circulating. But it was not recognized as an official protest until a few days later because CDCR does not consider an inmate to be on a hunger strike until he or she has missed nine consecutive meals."
Speaking to the bolded part of this post.....
Don't buy/sell drugs and they can't arrest you for drug possession. I will never understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp.
All I hear is a bunch of spoiled brats complaining because they can't do what they want. Before you start talking about how harmless marijuana is, I'd ask that you do some research on the atrocities of the drug cartels in Mexico. Apparently some people believe their right to get high is more important than the safety and well being of the innocent victims of the drug cartels.
I wonder if we'll get a tax credit for the food we are paying for that they are not eating.
......................you heard it here folks. If you possess marijuana, you're guilty of killing Mexicans.
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
The problem is that laws (at least in the US) are way too strict. It is very difficult to not break the law. Over half the people in prison are there for drug crimes which didn't actually hurt anyone else, do you really think that more than 1% of the US population are really criminals who need to be locked up? When there are over 5,000 laws just at the federal level, how are you possibly supposed to be sure to know what you can and can't do?
Unfortunately in NYC, there are a couple precincts who have been accussed of unlawful arrests in order to bolster up those numbers. Also, racial profiling for small amounts of marijuana possession are also increasing prison sizes.
"Inmates at prisons throughout the state are still refusing meals to protest conditions for gang members held in solitary confinement at Pelican Bay State Prison near Eureka.
But the number of participants has continuously decreased since the hunger strike first started more than two weeks ago, prison officials said.
On Wednesday 707 inmates at 10 California prisons were on a hunger strike, said Jeffrey Callison, a spokesman for California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation. That's down from the 12,421 inmates on July 11.
About 30,000 inmates refused state-issued breakfast and lunch on July 8 when rumors of the strike started circulating. But it was not recognized as an official protest until a few days later because CDCR does not consider an inmate to be on a hunger strike until he or she has missed nine consecutive meals."
Speaking to the bolded part of this post.....
Don't buy/sell drugs and they can't arrest you for drug possession. I will never understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp.
All I hear is a bunch of spoiled brats complaining because they can't do what they want. Before you start talking about how harmless marijuana is, I'd ask that you do some research on the atrocities of the drug cartels in Mexico. Apparently some people believe their right to get high is more important than the safety and well being of the innocent victims of the drug cartels.
I wonder if we'll get a tax credit for the food we are paying for that they are not eating.
......................you heard it here folks. If you possess marijuana, you're guilty of killing Mexicans.
Well, regardless of how you look at it, if you are buying drugs made/distributed by the cartels, you are financing people that are capable of tremendous evil.
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
The problem is that laws (at least in the US) are way too strict. It is very difficult to not break the law. Over half the people in prison are there for drug crimes which didn't actually hurt anyone else, do you really think that more than 1% of the US population are really criminals who need to be locked up? When there are over 5,000 laws just at the federal level, how are you possibly supposed to be sure to know what you can and can't do?
Unfortunately in NYC, there are a couple precincts who have been accussed of unlawful arrests in order to bolster up those numbers. Also, racial profiling for small amounts of marijuana possession are also increasing prison sizes.
"Inmates at prisons throughout the state are still refusing meals to protest conditions for gang members held in solitary confinement at Pelican Bay State Prison near Eureka.
But the number of participants has continuously decreased since the hunger strike first started more than two weeks ago, prison officials said.
On Wednesday 707 inmates at 10 California prisons were on a hunger strike, said Jeffrey Callison, a spokesman for California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation. That's down from the 12,421 inmates on July 11.
About 30,000 inmates refused state-issued breakfast and lunch on July 8 when rumors of the strike started circulating. But it was not recognized as an official protest until a few days later because CDCR does not consider an inmate to be on a hunger strike until he or she has missed nine consecutive meals."
Speaking to the bolded part of this post.....
Don't buy/sell drugs and they can't arrest you for drug possession. I will never understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp.
All I hear is a bunch of spoiled brats complaining because they can't do what they want. Before you start talking about how harmless marijuana is, I'd ask that you do some research on the atrocities of the drug cartels in Mexico. Apparently some people believe their right to get high is more important than the safety and well being of the innocent victims of the drug cartels.
I wonder if we'll get a tax credit for the food we are paying for that they are not eating.
......................you heard it here folks. If you possess marijuana, you're guilty of killing Mexicans.
What a childish and selfish attitude to have.
Drugs, throughout history, are a common denominator in the deterioration of communities world wide. While it may seem harmless for a suburban teenager in middle America to smoke a joint, the effects of that decision have consequences. Consequences that negatively affect innocent people in other countries, in some cases.
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
The problem is that laws (at least in the US) are way too strict. It is very difficult to not break the law. Over half the people in prison are there for drug crimes which didn't actually hurt anyone else, do you really think that more than 1% of the US population are really criminals who need to be locked up? When there are over 5,000 laws just at the federal level, how are you possibly supposed to be sure to know what you can and can't do?
Unfortunately in NYC, there are a couple precincts who have been accussed of unlawful arrests in order to bolster up those numbers. Also, racial profiling for small amounts of marijuana possession are also increasing prison sizes.
"Inmates at prisons throughout the state are still refusing meals to protest conditions for gang members held in solitary confinement at Pelican Bay State Prison near Eureka.
But the number of participants has continuously decreased since the hunger strike first started more than two weeks ago, prison officials said.
On Wednesday 707 inmates at 10 California prisons were on a hunger strike, said Jeffrey Callison, a spokesman for California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation. That's down from the 12,421 inmates on July 11.
About 30,000 inmates refused state-issued breakfast and lunch on July 8 when rumors of the strike started circulating. But it was not recognized as an official protest until a few days later because CDCR does not consider an inmate to be on a hunger strike until he or she has missed nine consecutive meals."
Speaking to the bolded part of this post.....
Don't buy/sell drugs and they can't arrest you for drug possession. I will never understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp.
All I hear is a bunch of spoiled brats complaining because they can't do what they want. Before you start talking about how harmless marijuana is, I'd ask that you do some research on the atrocities of the drug cartels in Mexico. Apparently some people believe their right to get high is more important than the safety and well being of the innocent victims of the drug cartels.
I wonder if we'll get a tax credit for the food we are paying for that they are not eating.
......................you heard it here folks. If you possess marijuana, you're guilty of killing Mexicans.
It's almost like you don't even have the ability to comprehend what he wrote.
I work as a Correctional Officer. I for one can tell you we have very little ways of punishing inmates as it is. Inmates are slowly taking over a lot of prisons. I think this is just another way for them to escape any punishment for things they do inside the prison. Assault on staff is rising within the prison system in my state (Tennessee). We can't rehabilitate inmates when the prison is becoming just a "gangland" type city.
They get free place to sleep, 3 free meals a day, pay $3 for cable, a gym, good days (aka time taken off their sentence), free education, free healthcare, etc. The list goes on... They still think they deserve more! The prison is filled with rapists, child molesters, & murderers. I have no sympathy for them.
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
The problem is that laws (at least in the US) are way too strict. It is very difficult to not break the law. Over half the people in prison are there for drug crimes which didn't actually hurt anyone else, do you really think that more than 1% of the US population are really criminals who need to be locked up? When there are over 5,000 laws just at the federal level, how are you possibly supposed to be sure to know what you can and can't do?
Unfortunately in NYC, there are a couple precincts who have been accussed of unlawful arrests in order to bolster up those numbers. Also, racial profiling for small amounts of marijuana possession are also increasing prison sizes.
"Inmates at prisons throughout the state are still refusing meals to protest conditions for gang members held in solitary confinement at Pelican Bay State Prison near Eureka.
But the number of participants has continuously decreased since the hunger strike first started more than two weeks ago, prison officials said.
On Wednesday 707 inmates at 10 California prisons were on a hunger strike, said Jeffrey Callison, a spokesman for California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation. That's down from the 12,421 inmates on July 11.
About 30,000 inmates refused state-issued breakfast and lunch on July 8 when rumors of the strike started circulating. But it was not recognized as an official protest until a few days later because CDCR does not consider an inmate to be on a hunger strike until he or she has missed nine consecutive meals."
Speaking to the bolded part of this post.....
Don't buy/sell drugs and they can't arrest you for drug possession. I will never understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp.
All I hear is a bunch of spoiled brats complaining because they can't do what they want. Before you start talking about how harmless marijuana is, I'd ask that you do some research on the atrocities of the drug cartels in Mexico. Apparently some people believe their right to get high is more important than the safety and well being of the innocent victims of the drug cartels.
I wonder if we'll get a tax credit for the food we are paying for that they are not eating.
......................you heard it here folks. If you possess marijuana, you're guilty of killing Mexicans.
Well, regardless of how you look at it, if you are buying drugs made/distributed by the cartels, you are financing people that are capable of tremendous evil.
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
The problem is that laws (at least in the US) are way too strict. It is very difficult to not break the law. Over half the people in prison are there for drug crimes which didn't actually hurt anyone else, do you really think that more than 1% of the US population are really criminals who need to be locked up? When there are over 5,000 laws just at the federal level, how are you possibly supposed to be sure to know what you can and can't do?
Unfortunately in NYC, there are a couple precincts who have been accussed of unlawful arrests in order to bolster up those numbers. Also, racial profiling for small amounts of marijuana possession are also increasing prison sizes.
"Inmates at prisons throughout the state are still refusing meals to protest conditions for gang members held in solitary confinement at Pelican Bay State Prison near Eureka.
But the number of participants has continuously decreased since the hunger strike first started more than two weeks ago, prison officials said.
On Wednesday 707 inmates at 10 California prisons were on a hunger strike, said Jeffrey Callison, a spokesman for California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation. That's down from the 12,421 inmates on July 11.
About 30,000 inmates refused state-issued breakfast and lunch on July 8 when rumors of the strike started circulating. But it was not recognized as an official protest until a few days later because CDCR does not consider an inmate to be on a hunger strike until he or she has missed nine consecutive meals."
Speaking to the bolded part of this post.....
Don't buy/sell drugs and they can't arrest you for drug possession. I will never understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp.
All I hear is a bunch of spoiled brats complaining because they can't do what they want. Before you start talking about how harmless marijuana is, I'd ask that you do some research on the atrocities of the drug cartels in Mexico. Apparently some people believe their right to get high is more important than the safety and well being of the innocent victims of the drug cartels.
I wonder if we'll get a tax credit for the food we are paying for that they are not eating.
......................you heard it here folks. If you possess marijuana, you're guilty of killing Mexicans.
What a childish and selfish attitude to have.
Drugs, throughout history, are a common denominator in the deterioration of communities world wide. While it may seem harmless for a suburban teenager in middle America to smoke a joint, the effects of that decision have consequences. Consequences that negatively affect innocent people in other countries, in some cases.
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
The problem is that laws (at least in the US) are way too strict. It is very difficult to not break the law. Over half the people in prison are there for drug crimes which didn't actually hurt anyone else, do you really think that more than 1% of the US population are really criminals who need to be locked up? When there are over 5,000 laws just at the federal level, how are you possibly supposed to be sure to know what you can and can't do?
Unfortunately in NYC, there are a couple precincts who have been accussed of unlawful arrests in order to bolster up those numbers. Also, racial profiling for small amounts of marijuana possession are also increasing prison sizes.
"Inmates at prisons throughout the state are still refusing meals to protest conditions for gang members held in solitary confinement at Pelican Bay State Prison near Eureka.
But the number of participants has continuously decreased since the hunger strike first started more than two weeks ago, prison officials said.
On Wednesday 707 inmates at 10 California prisons were on a hunger strike, said Jeffrey Callison, a spokesman for California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation. That's down from the 12,421 inmates on July 11.
About 30,000 inmates refused state-issued breakfast and lunch on July 8 when rumors of the strike started circulating. But it was not recognized as an official protest until a few days later because CDCR does not consider an inmate to be on a hunger strike until he or she has missed nine consecutive meals."
Speaking to the bolded part of this post.....
Don't buy/sell drugs and they can't arrest you for drug possession. I will never understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp.
All I hear is a bunch of spoiled brats complaining because they can't do what they want. Before you start talking about how harmless marijuana is, I'd ask that you do some research on the atrocities of the drug cartels in Mexico. Apparently some people believe their right to get high is more important than the safety and well being of the innocent victims of the drug cartels.
I wonder if we'll get a tax credit for the food we are paying for that they are not eating.
......................you heard it here folks. If you possess marijuana, you're guilty of killing Mexicans.
It's almost like you don't even have the ability to comprehend what he wrote.
Seriously? Three people? Seriously?
I know people on this thread love to advocate the punishment exceeding the crime, but apparently punishment for 5 degrees of separation to a crime is the new fad.
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
The problem is that laws (at least in the US) are way too strict. It is very difficult to not break the law. Over half the people in prison are there for drug crimes which didn't actually hurt anyone else, do you really think that more than 1% of the US population are really criminals who need to be locked up? When there are over 5,000 laws just at the federal level, how are you possibly supposed to be sure to know what you can and can't do?
Unfortunately in NYC, there are a couple precincts who have been accussed of unlawful arrests in order to bolster up those numbers. Also, racial profiling for small amounts of marijuana possession are also increasing prison sizes.
"Inmates at prisons throughout the state are still refusing meals to protest conditions for gang members held in solitary confinement at Pelican Bay State Prison near Eureka.
But the number of participants has continuously decreased since the hunger strike first started more than two weeks ago, prison officials said.
On Wednesday 707 inmates at 10 California prisons were on a hunger strike, said Jeffrey Callison, a spokesman for California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation. That's down from the 12,421 inmates on July 11.
About 30,000 inmates refused state-issued breakfast and lunch on July 8 when rumors of the strike started circulating. But it was not recognized as an official protest until a few days later because CDCR does not consider an inmate to be on a hunger strike until he or she has missed nine consecutive meals."
Speaking to the bolded part of this post.....
Don't buy/sell drugs and they can't arrest you for drug possession. I will never understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp.
All I hear is a bunch of spoiled brats complaining because they can't do what they want. Before you start talking about how harmless marijuana is, I'd ask that you do some research on the atrocities of the drug cartels in Mexico. Apparently some people believe their right to get high is more important than the safety and well being of the innocent victims of the drug cartels.
I wonder if we'll get a tax credit for the food we are paying for that they are not eating.
......................you heard it here folks. If you possess marijuana, you're guilty of killing Mexicans.
Well, regardless of how you look at it, if you are buying drugs made/distributed by the cartels, you are financing people that are capable of tremendous evil.
And if you support prohibition, you are providing a source of revenue for people that are capable of tremendous evil. There's a reason cartels aren't smuggling alcohol across the border.
Prohibition does not work... At much other then swelling prison populations, and killing people caught in the crossfire.
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
The problem is that laws (at least in the US) are way too strict. It is very difficult to not break the law. Over half the people in prison are there for drug crimes which didn't actually hurt anyone else, do you really think that more than 1% of the US population are really criminals who need to be locked up? When there are over 5,000 laws just at the federal level, how are you possibly supposed to be sure to know what you can and can't do?
Unfortunately in NYC, there are a couple precincts who have been accussed of unlawful arrests in order to bolster up those numbers. Also, racial profiling for small amounts of marijuana possession are also increasing prison sizes.
"Inmates at prisons throughout the state are still refusing meals to protest conditions for gang members held in solitary confinement at Pelican Bay State Prison near Eureka.
But the number of participants has continuously decreased since the hunger strike first started more than two weeks ago, prison officials said.
On Wednesday 707 inmates at 10 California prisons were on a hunger strike, said Jeffrey Callison, a spokesman for California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation. That's down from the 12,421 inmates on July 11.
About 30,000 inmates refused state-issued breakfast and lunch on July 8 when rumors of the strike started circulating. But it was not recognized as an official protest until a few days later because CDCR does not consider an inmate to be on a hunger strike until he or she has missed nine consecutive meals."
Speaking to the bolded part of this post.....
Don't buy/sell drugs and they can't arrest you for drug possession. I will never understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp.
All I hear is a bunch of spoiled brats complaining because they can't do what they want. Before you start talking about how harmless marijuana is, I'd ask that you do some research on the atrocities of the drug cartels in Mexico. Apparently some people believe their right to get high is more important than the safety and well being of the innocent victims of the drug cartels.
I wonder if we'll get a tax credit for the food we are paying for that they are not eating.
......................you heard it here folks. If you possess marijuana, you're guilty of killing Mexicans.
Well, regardless of how you look at it, if you are buying drugs made/distributed by the cartels, you are financing people that are capable of tremendous evil.
And if you support prohibition, you are providing a source of revenue for people that are capable of tremendous evil. There's a reason the cartels aren't smuggling alcohol across the border.
Prohibition does not work... At much other then swelling prison populations, and killing people caught in the crossfire.
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
The problem is that laws (at least in the US) are way too strict. It is very difficult to not break the law. Over half the people in prison are there for drug crimes which didn't actually hurt anyone else, do you really think that more than 1% of the US population are really criminals who need to be locked up? When there are over 5,000 laws just at the federal level, how are you possibly supposed to be sure to know what you can and can't do?
Unfortunately in NYC, there are a couple precincts who have been accussed of unlawful arrests in order to bolster up those numbers. Also, racial profiling for small amounts of marijuana possession are also increasing prison sizes.
"Inmates at prisons throughout the state are still refusing meals to protest conditions for gang members held in solitary confinement at Pelican Bay State Prison near Eureka.
But the number of participants has continuously decreased since the hunger strike first started more than two weeks ago, prison officials said.
On Wednesday 707 inmates at 10 California prisons were on a hunger strike, said Jeffrey Callison, a spokesman for California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation. That's down from the 12,421 inmates on July 11.
About 30,000 inmates refused state-issued breakfast and lunch on July 8 when rumors of the strike started circulating. But it was not recognized as an official protest until a few days later because CDCR does not consider an inmate to be on a hunger strike until he or she has missed nine consecutive meals."
Speaking to the bolded part of this post.....
Don't buy/sell drugs and they can't arrest you for drug possession. I will never understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp.
All I hear is a bunch of spoiled brats complaining because they can't do what they want. Before you start talking about how harmless marijuana is, I'd ask that you do some research on the atrocities of the drug cartels in Mexico. Apparently some people believe their right to get high is more important than the safety and well being of the innocent victims of the drug cartels.
I wonder if we'll get a tax credit for the food we are paying for that they are not eating.
Just to let you know, but the united states is actually producing the majority of its own cannabis, since people tend to like Quality. And patrolling peoples bodies is for you something that is morally sound? I can understand if its violence related, but to patrol every persons body for drugs is morally sound? No, and it's too expensive and it doesn't work. You can't patrol your populations blood, that is fascism, just like recording all citizens communication.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
The problem is that laws (at least in the US) are way too strict. It is very difficult to not break the law. Over half the people in prison are there for drug crimes which didn't actually hurt anyone else, do you really think that more than 1% of the US population are really criminals who need to be locked up? When there are over 5,000 laws just at the federal level, how are you possibly supposed to be sure to know what you can and can't do?
Unfortunately in NYC, there are a couple precincts who have been accussed of unlawful arrests in order to bolster up those numbers. Also, racial profiling for small amounts of marijuana possession are also increasing prison sizes.
"Inmates at prisons throughout the state are still refusing meals to protest conditions for gang members held in solitary confinement at Pelican Bay State Prison near Eureka.
But the number of participants has continuously decreased since the hunger strike first started more than two weeks ago, prison officials said.
On Wednesday 707 inmates at 10 California prisons were on a hunger strike, said Jeffrey Callison, a spokesman for California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation. That's down from the 12,421 inmates on July 11.
About 30,000 inmates refused state-issued breakfast and lunch on July 8 when rumors of the strike started circulating. But it was not recognized as an official protest until a few days later because CDCR does not consider an inmate to be on a hunger strike until he or she has missed nine consecutive meals."
Speaking to the bolded part of this post.....
Don't buy/sell drugs and they can't arrest you for drug possession. I will never understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp.
All I hear is a bunch of spoiled brats complaining because they can't do what they want. Before you start talking about how harmless marijuana is, I'd ask that you do some research on the atrocities of the drug cartels in Mexico. Apparently some people believe their right to get high is more important than the safety and well being of the innocent victims of the drug cartels.
I wonder if we'll get a tax credit for the food we are paying for that they are not eating.
......................you heard it here folks. If you possess marijuana, you're guilty of killing Mexicans.
Well, regardless of how you look at it, if you are buying drugs made/distributed by the cartels, you are financing people that are capable of tremendous evil.
And if you support prohibition, you are providing a source of revenue for people that are capable of tremendous evil. There's a reason the cartels aren't smuggling alcohol across the border.
Prohibition does not work... At much other then swelling prison populations, and killing people caught in the crossfire.
Should we legalize heroin?
It has been suggested that legalizing heroin would decrease the heroin users paranoia and feeling of being ostracized, and with that, the users criminal connections and behaviour. It would also allow heroin users to feel more at ease of being treated for addiction.
Also, there is not much evidence or even intelligent theories that show how it being legalized would increase use, people are informed of its dangers and the vast majority of people are sufficiently intelligent to avoid the drug even if they are pot heads, coke heads or whatever. Heroin use, and the use of other exceptionally addicting and dangerous drugs are associated with self destructive behaviour, something which in society would not increase with it being legalized, and therefor its use wouldn't noticeably increase. The benefits however are great, heroin users would be much healthier, and since they wouldn't be in a position where they hide their use constantly they can easier be confronted if it is affecting their life in a negative way. Believe it or not, but people who use heroin legally, like methadone, a synthetic opoid, due to having a so called chronic addiction, are able to function normally when using methadone. Most of their destructive behaviour is linked to the drugs illegal status, and as I said previously, feeling of being ostracized and persecuted even if the person in question havn't done something morally wrong, this aspect usually leads to paranoia and increased self destructive behaviour.
I have to repeat, using an illegal drug isn't morally wrong, therefor, chasing and punishing that person will cause great psychological harm to the individual, much more than the drug in many cases.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
The problem is that laws (at least in the US) are way too strict. It is very difficult to not break the law. Over half the people in prison are there for drug crimes which didn't actually hurt anyone else, do you really think that more than 1% of the US population are really criminals who need to be locked up? When there are over 5,000 laws just at the federal level, how are you possibly supposed to be sure to know what you can and can't do?
Unfortunately in NYC, there are a couple precincts who have been accussed of unlawful arrests in order to bolster up those numbers. Also, racial profiling for small amounts of marijuana possession are also increasing prison sizes.
"Inmates at prisons throughout the state are still refusing meals to protest conditions for gang members held in solitary confinement at Pelican Bay State Prison near Eureka.
But the number of participants has continuously decreased since the hunger strike first started more than two weeks ago, prison officials said.
On Wednesday 707 inmates at 10 California prisons were on a hunger strike, said Jeffrey Callison, a spokesman for California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation. That's down from the 12,421 inmates on July 11.
About 30,000 inmates refused state-issued breakfast and lunch on July 8 when rumors of the strike started circulating. But it was not recognized as an official protest until a few days later because CDCR does not consider an inmate to be on a hunger strike until he or she has missed nine consecutive meals."
Speaking to the bolded part of this post.....
Don't buy/sell drugs and they can't arrest you for drug possession. I will never understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp.
All I hear is a bunch of spoiled brats complaining because they can't do what they want. Before you start talking about how harmless marijuana is, I'd ask that you do some research on the atrocities of the drug cartels in Mexico. Apparently some people believe their right to get high is more important than the safety and well being of the innocent victims of the drug cartels.
I wonder if we'll get a tax credit for the food we are paying for that they are not eating.
......................you heard it here folks. If you possess marijuana, you're guilty of killing Mexicans.
Well, regardless of how you look at it, if you are buying drugs made/distributed by the cartels, you are financing people that are capable of tremendous evil.
And if you support prohibition, you are providing a source of revenue for people that are capable of tremendous evil. There's a reason the cartels aren't smuggling alcohol across the border.
Prohibition does not work... At much other then swelling prison populations, and killing people caught in the crossfire.
Should we legalize heroin?
If it'll stop people from being stuffed into oil drums, and set on fire in Mexico... Sure.
On July 11 2013 10:47 Blargh wrote: And I thought prison conditions were pretty good. Shit...
Honest post: I think solitary confinement is probably pretty counter-productive, assuming the people aren't in jail for life. How many sane people actually come out of that?
It just seems weird that so many people would be protesting solitary confinement. Surely only a few people actually get that kind of "punishment". At least that shows that people in jail have some sympathy. They can't be that bad, heh.
@superstartran Well, what is classified as a human right? They -ARE- given food, water, and technically shelter... Being able to see others? Not sure if that qualifies as a right, heh. Though, I don't necessarily agree with it.
You do realize prisons are counter-productive. It's a shitty system designed to keep criminals inside.
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
The problem is that laws (at least in the US) are way too strict. It is very difficult to not break the law. Over half the people in prison are there for drug crimes which didn't actually hurt anyone else, do you really think that more than 1% of the US population are really criminals who need to be locked up? When there are over 5,000 laws just at the federal level, how are you possibly supposed to be sure to know what you can and can't do?
Unfortunately in NYC, there are a couple precincts who have been accussed of unlawful arrests in order to bolster up those numbers. Also, racial profiling for small amounts of marijuana possession are also increasing prison sizes.
"Inmates at prisons throughout the state are still refusing meals to protest conditions for gang members held in solitary confinement at Pelican Bay State Prison near Eureka.
But the number of participants has continuously decreased since the hunger strike first started more than two weeks ago, prison officials said.
On Wednesday 707 inmates at 10 California prisons were on a hunger strike, said Jeffrey Callison, a spokesman for California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation. That's down from the 12,421 inmates on July 11.
About 30,000 inmates refused state-issued breakfast and lunch on July 8 when rumors of the strike started circulating. But it was not recognized as an official protest until a few days later because CDCR does not consider an inmate to be on a hunger strike until he or she has missed nine consecutive meals."
Speaking to the bolded part of this post.....
Don't buy/sell drugs and they can't arrest you for drug possession. I will never understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp.
All I hear is a bunch of spoiled brats complaining because they can't do what they want. Before you start talking about how harmless marijuana is, I'd ask that you do some research on the atrocities of the drug cartels in Mexico. Apparently some people believe their right to get high is more important than the safety and well being of the innocent victims of the drug cartels.
I wonder if we'll get a tax credit for the food we are paying for that they are not eating.
......................you heard it here folks. If you possess marijuana, you're guilty of killing Mexicans.
Well, regardless of how you look at it, if you are buying drugs made/distributed by the cartels, you are financing people that are capable of tremendous evil.
And if you support prohibition, you are providing a source of revenue for people that are capable of tremendous evil. There's a reason the cartels aren't smuggling alcohol across the border.
Prohibition does not work... At much other then swelling prison populations, and killing people caught in the crossfire.
Should we legalize heroin?
If it'll stop people from being stuffed into oil drums, and set on fire in Mexico... Sure.
If they want out, they'll comply with the prison programs because solitary confinement is temporary..
I don't think you understand how a human mind processes time, particularly in solitary confinement.
Rehab works, my point was that you can't force someone to rehabilitate if they don't want it, which is why it's a lofty goal. All you can do is offer the programs (which California prisons do) and let those who want the help step forward.
The other points you asked for proof on are are just matters of responsibility.
I worked for a number of years in two prisons in California. Solitary confinement is the "prison within the prison", meaning an inmate only goes there if they are determined to be too dangerous to the inmate population to stay on the mainline. It is not something that is easy to get into, and it takes approval from multiple members of the prison's administration, and they will only approve if there is a large amount of documented substantiation.
These guys earned their way into solitary, and now they are doing the typical "We're not such bad guys, so why are we here?" routine that even little kids use to garner pity.
To anyone who's been following the strike, the number of inmates participating in the hunger strike has dropped from 30,000 initially to 1,235 today. Also, inmates refusing to report to their work assignments also dropped from 2,300 initially to 42 today.
On July 26 2013 22:32 khanofmongols wrote: [quote]
The problem is that laws (at least in the US) are way too strict. It is very difficult to not break the law. Over half the people in prison are there for drug crimes which didn't actually hurt anyone else, do you really think that more than 1% of the US population are really criminals who need to be locked up? When there are over 5,000 laws just at the federal level, how are you possibly supposed to be sure to know what you can and can't do?
Unfortunately in NYC, there are a couple precincts who have been accussed of unlawful arrests in order to bolster up those numbers. Also, racial profiling for small amounts of marijuana possession are also increasing prison sizes.
"Inmates at prisons throughout the state are still refusing meals to protest conditions for gang members held in solitary confinement at Pelican Bay State Prison near Eureka.
But the number of participants has continuously decreased since the hunger strike first started more than two weeks ago, prison officials said.
On Wednesday 707 inmates at 10 California prisons were on a hunger strike, said Jeffrey Callison, a spokesman for California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation. That's down from the 12,421 inmates on July 11.
About 30,000 inmates refused state-issued breakfast and lunch on July 8 when rumors of the strike started circulating. But it was not recognized as an official protest until a few days later because CDCR does not consider an inmate to be on a hunger strike until he or she has missed nine consecutive meals."
Speaking to the bolded part of this post.....
Don't buy/sell drugs and they can't arrest you for drug possession. I will never understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp.
All I hear is a bunch of spoiled brats complaining because they can't do what they want. Before you start talking about how harmless marijuana is, I'd ask that you do some research on the atrocities of the drug cartels in Mexico. Apparently some people believe their right to get high is more important than the safety and well being of the innocent victims of the drug cartels.
I wonder if we'll get a tax credit for the food we are paying for that they are not eating.
......................you heard it here folks. If you possess marijuana, you're guilty of killing Mexicans.
Well, regardless of how you look at it, if you are buying drugs made/distributed by the cartels, you are financing people that are capable of tremendous evil.
And if you support prohibition, you are providing a source of revenue for people that are capable of tremendous evil. There's a reason the cartels aren't smuggling alcohol across the border.
Prohibition does not work... At much other then swelling prison populations, and killing people caught in the crossfire.
Should we legalize heroin?
If it'll stop people from being stuffed into oil drums, and set on fire in Mexico... Sure.
So I guess your answer is no then.
I take it you don't figure that drug violence is a direct consequence of the fact that drugs are... Illegal?
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
The problem is that laws (at least in the US) are way too strict. It is very difficult to not break the law. Over half the people in prison are there for drug crimes which didn't actually hurt anyone else, do you really think that more than 1% of the US population are really criminals who need to be locked up? When there are over 5,000 laws just at the federal level, how are you possibly supposed to be sure to know what you can and can't do?
The countless laws that you don't know about and don't require you to know about them to be convicted, or for you to not have knowledge. Like you sleep with a girl who says she is 18 but she isn't really 18 and her parents find out and press charges. Or you violate some law that is created after you made decision relevent to it, like the guy who bought a gun and then 5 years later violated the new law against possession of the gun. Or you open a new business and you don't have the appropriate size windows or tiling or something and violate a regulation you've never heard of. Or you bring a knife somewhere and end up in an area banning knives for some reason without knowing it.
Show me where someone was sent to prison for having the wrong size windows at their place of business.
You said don't break the law, they are but they will be fined instead of sent to prison, they still broke the law
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
The problem is that laws (at least in the US) are way too strict. It is very difficult to not break the law. Over half the people in prison are there for drug crimes which didn't actually hurt anyone else, do you really think that more than 1% of the US population are really criminals who need to be locked up? When there are over 5,000 laws just at the federal level, how are you possibly supposed to be sure to know what you can and can't do?
The countless laws that you don't know about and don't require you to know about them to be convicted, or for you to not have knowledge. Like you sleep with a girl who says she is 18 but she isn't really 18 and her parents find out and press charges. Or you violate some law that is created after you made decision relevent to it, like the guy who bought a gun and then 5 years later violated the new law against possession of the gun. Or you open a new business and you don't have the appropriate size windows or tiling or something and violate a regulation you've never heard of. Or you bring a knife somewhere and end up in an area banning knives for some reason without knowing it.
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
The problem is that laws (at least in the US) are way too strict. It is very difficult to not break the law. Over half the people in prison are there for drug crimes which didn't actually hurt anyone else, do you really think that more than 1% of the US population are really criminals who need to be locked up? When there are over 5,000 laws just at the federal level, how are you possibly supposed to be sure to know what you can and can't do?
The countless laws that you don't know about and don't require you to know about them to be convicted, or for you to not have knowledge. Like you sleep with a girl who says she is 18 but she isn't really 18 and her parents find out and press charges. Or you violate some law that is created after you made decision relevent to it, like the guy who bought a gun and then 5 years later violated the new law against possession of the gun. Or you open a new business and you don't have the appropriate size windows or tiling or something and violate a regulation you've never heard of. Or you bring a knife somewhere and end up in an area banning knives for some reason without knowing it.
You can't be convicted of a crime for an action you committed before it was law but you can make a decision and conclude something is illegal then a few years later it becomes illegal. Like for instance you purchased a gun and check that it is legal and everything and feel good. Then 2 years later it becomes illegal to own a gun, you don't know and then get convicted of illegal firearm possession and go to jail. Like are you supposed to read through every law passed each year? good luck.
On July 26 2013 17:22 Joedaddy wrote: I've worked in the prison system, and I have witnessed first hand the conditions prisoners live in. I can tell you, based on my experience, they are not inhumane in any way, shape, or form.
If they're unhappy with their living conditions or solitary confinement, then the solution is quite simple:
1. Stop breaking the law. 2. If you are in prison, don't break the rules and you wont be put in solitary.
Prisons are overcrowded these days to the point where you can be put in solitary even if you don't break the rules
bologna~ and even if it were true, I defer to #1 (Stop breaking the law). These people are in jail for a reason. I don't want them to be comfortable. I want them to feel punished for making the world worse.
The problem is that laws (at least in the US) are way too strict. It is very difficult to not break the law. Over half the people in prison are there for drug crimes which didn't actually hurt anyone else, do you really think that more than 1% of the US population are really criminals who need to be locked up? When there are over 5,000 laws just at the federal level, how are you possibly supposed to be sure to know what you can and can't do?
Unfortunately in NYC, there are a couple precincts who have been accussed of unlawful arrests in order to bolster up those numbers. Also, racial profiling for small amounts of marijuana possession are also increasing prison sizes.
"Inmates at prisons throughout the state are still refusing meals to protest conditions for gang members held in solitary confinement at Pelican Bay State Prison near Eureka.
But the number of participants has continuously decreased since the hunger strike first started more than two weeks ago, prison officials said.
On Wednesday 707 inmates at 10 California prisons were on a hunger strike, said Jeffrey Callison, a spokesman for California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation. That's down from the 12,421 inmates on July 11.
About 30,000 inmates refused state-issued breakfast and lunch on July 8 when rumors of the strike started circulating. But it was not recognized as an official protest until a few days later because CDCR does not consider an inmate to be on a hunger strike until he or she has missed nine consecutive meals."
Speaking to the bolded part of this post.....
Don't buy/sell drugs and they can't arrest you for drug possession. I will never understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp.
All I hear is a bunch of spoiled brats complaining because they can't do what they want. Before you start talking about how harmless marijuana is, I'd ask that you do some research on the atrocities of the drug cartels in Mexico. Apparently some people believe their right to get high is more important than the safety and well being of the innocent victims of the drug cartels.
I wonder if we'll get a tax credit for the food we are paying for that they are not eating.
......................you heard it here folks. If you possess marijuana, you're guilty of killing Mexicans.
What a childish and selfish attitude to have.
Drugs, throughout history, are a common denominator in the deterioration of communities world wide. While it may seem harmless for a suburban teenager in middle America to smoke a joint, the effects of that decision have consequences. Consequences that negatively affect innocent people in other countries, in some cases.
Thats because it's illegal... If it was produced like alcohol it would be made here and there would be no need for the cartels to be cutting heads off.
If you genuinely think the war on drugs is working I don't even know what to say. Drugs are pretty clearly a health problem not a criminal one. If you lock up 1000 traffickers there will still be 5000 lined up to do it. If you crank up the jail time or even make it a death sentence there will still be people who are willing to risk everything for the new higher pay cheque for doing it.
The gist: "Prison policy is to let inmates starve to death if they have signed legally binding do-not-resuscitate (DNR) requests. But state corrections officials and a federal receiver who controls inmate medical care received blanket authority from U.S. District Judge Thelton Henderson of San Francisco to feed inmates who may be in failing health."
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.brasilonlinenoticias.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/PRESIDIO-LOTADO.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7gZxAH8.jpg)
risoner_population_rate_world_2012_map.png
