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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
On July 13 2013 21:36 Toadesstern wrote: good thing you're not running a prison I guess? Depends. Are we concerned with rehabilitating prisoners, or are we concerned with making their lives comfortable? | ||
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Iplaythings
Denmark9110 Posts
On July 13 2013 21:57 sc2superfan101 wrote: Depends. Are we concerned with rehabilitating prisoners, or are we concerned with making their lives comfortable? It's the same thing, you can hardly rehab someone if they are not out of a shitty environment, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic but put em around alot of alcohol and alcoholics who's drunk. There is this funny coincidence with countries treating their criminals well and countries with low crime rates. I wonder if there might be a relation between the two. Okay, I'll quit the sarcastic trip, even the screwups who's in there for murder CAN improve, I wouldn't put it past anyone to be forced into a situation where they might commit murder or not seeing a fatal flaw in themselves at a given time, only psychopaths are out of reach and even then they deserve to be treated as humans cus that's what they are, why would you think that they would see the error of their ways if society just keeps pissing on them and noone helps them out of the shit that they're in? I also saw some guy write something igonrant about how seeing other people isn't a human right. Everyone with a basis knowledge of psychology knows that isolation drives people insane. God I've no idea why this of all things ticks me off but dammit does ignorance regarding prisons piss me off | ||
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wUndertUnge
United States1126 Posts
[QUOTE]On July 13 2013 21:57 sc2superfan101 wrote: [QUOTE]On July 13 2013 21:36 Toadesstern wrote: good thing you're not running a prison I guess?[/QUOTE] even the screwups who's in there for murder CAN improve,[/QUOTE] Problem is not everyone believes that. I'm not even sure I believe that, especially for prisoners with the most accute mental afflictions. Still, I wonder if the tact did change that we might see some impossible rehabilitations come to light. But it's a near insurmountable effort to get people to change their perspectives on things, as much effort perhaps to get a mass murderer or other max.security prisoner to change their behavior. | ||
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
On July 13 2013 22:07 Iplaythings wrote: It's the same thing, you can hardly rehab someone if they are not out of a shitty environment, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic but put em around alot of alcohol and alcoholics who's drunk. No, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic and so you work him so goddamn hard every single day that he doesn't have the energy nor the time to even think about alcohol. Also, you remove anything resembling alcohol or anything that reminds him of alcohol (tattoo removal for all tattoos upon entering prison, uniform enforcement, no unauthorized association, etc.) Also, rehabilitation is not my only concern, nor should it ever be the sole concern of anyone. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On July 13 2013 23:25 sc2superfan101 wrote: No, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic and so you work him so goddamn hard every single day that he doesn't have the energy nor the time to even think about alcohol. Also, you remove anything resembling alcohol or anything that reminds him of alcohol (tattoo removal for all tattoos upon entering prison, uniform enforcement, no unauthorized association, etc.) Also, rehabilitation is not my only concern, nor should it ever be the sole concern of anyone. What other concerns do you have? | ||
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
The safety of law-abiding (and non law-abiding) citizens, the general peace and well-being of society itself, and as unpopular as it is: punishment. I think the idea that punishment is synonymous with revenge is nonsensical. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On July 13 2013 23:25 sc2superfan101 wrote: No, it's like wanting to rehab an alcoholic and so you work him so goddamn hard every single day that he doesn't have the energy nor the time to even think about alcohol. Also, you remove anything resembling alcohol or anything that reminds him of alcohol (tattoo removal for all tattoos upon entering prison, uniform enforcement, no unauthorized association, etc.) Also, rehabilitation is not my only concern, nor should it ever be the sole concern of anyone. his point was that you can't expect someone to stop being violent by putting him in a situation that is being violent towards you on purpose. Maybe once to see what it's like from the other side but if you're being treated like an animal from a day to day basis, being tortured (which this thread is about) for the sake of getting your revenge there's really nothing you have to be suprised about if guy-in-question comes out of prison like an animal himself. So you do agree that violence / torture should be avoided at all costs if possible after all? Because that's what you're trying to get people off of. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On July 13 2013 23:51 sc2superfan101 wrote: The safety of law-abiding (and non law-abiding) citizens, the general peace and well-being of society itself, and as unpopular as it is: punishment. I think the idea that punishment is synonymous with revenge is nonsensical. The first two are basically the same thing. Punishment, to my mind, is definitely only for revenge, but I'm interested to know what other function you think it has? | ||
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
On July 13 2013 23:52 Toadesstern wrote: his point was that you can't expect someone to stop being violent by putting him in a situation that is being violent towards you on purpose. Maybe once to see what it's like from the other side but if you're being treated like an animal from a day to day basis, being tortured (which this thread is about) for the sake of getting your revenge there's really nothing you have to be suprised about if guy-in-question comes out of prison like an animal himself. So you do agree that violence / torture should be avoided at all costs if possible after all? Because that's what you're trying to get people off of. If a prisoner is refusing to follow the rules then something must be done to convince them that breaking the rules will lead to undesirable consequences. If you have a better, more effective way than solitary confinement than that should surely be used instead. On July 13 2013 23:59 Shiori wrote: The first two are basically the same thing. Punishment, to my mind, is definitely only for revenge, but I'm interested to know what other function you think it has? I think that punishment is enforced penance, and I think penance is absolutely necessary for the psychological well-being of both the criminal and the victim. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On July 14 2013 00:02 sc2superfan101 wrote: If a prisoner is refusing to follow the rules then something must be done to convince them that breaking the rules will lead to undesirable consequences. If you have a better, more effective way than solitary confinement than that should surely be used instead. again, the whole point of this thread is that solitary confinement is apparently being missused | ||
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S_SienZ
1878 Posts
On July 13 2013 23:59 Shiori wrote: The first two are basically the same thing. Punishment, to my mind, is definitely only for revenge, but I'm interested to know what other function you think it has? If punishment was for revenge then victims would be the sentencers. What did you think was the point of the state displacing that role? | ||
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H0i
Netherlands484 Posts
On July 14 2013 00:02 sc2superfan101 wrote: If a prisoner is refusing to follow the rules then something must be done to convince them that breaking the rules will lead to undesirable consequences. If you have a better, more effective way than solitary confinement than that should surely be used instead. I think that punishment is enforced penance, and I think penance is absolutely necessary for the psychological well-being of both the criminal and the victim. You are assuming the rules are automatically just, only because they are the rules. But this is very far away from the truth. Just look at the people who are in the prisons. So many are there for victim-less 'crimes'. | ||
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Fenris420
Sweden213 Posts
Also, rehabilitation is not my only concern, nor should it ever be the sole concern of anyone. Oh but it should. The current prisons are essentially crime factories. There have been sources provided in this very thread that states people are more likely to continue being criminals after going to prison. That means the prison does not protect you from criminals, it actually makes it worse. You just delay the danger by a few years. On top of this, we know that the violence in so called "max security" prisons is going to remain mostly the same in spite of all the guards and tazers etc. Is there any evidence that high security has done anything to reduce violence in prisons? I present: http://law.wustl.edu/Journal/22/p125Specter.pdf .This was not a hard find on scholar. Lets take it one step further. Does anyone have any sources proclaimin any positive effects from solitary confinement or high security prisons in general? Does anyone have any sources where harsher sentences or stricter treatment of criminals had positive effects? Because I have plenty saying the opposite, as do others in this thread. It seems to me that we are stuck debating gut feelings, which may seem relevant but ultimately arn't. Feelings such as crime deserves punishment. While understandable, these feelings do not belong in a serious debate, especially not when confronted with science that says otherwise. | ||
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Fenris420
Sweden213 Posts
Nothing changes the past, including punishment. The problem is that punishment negatively implicates the future. If there are people who need criminals to be punished in order to feel good, that is an issue and we should look into it. If that is true, it makes me sad. | ||
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
On July 14 2013 00:07 Fenris420 wrote: Edit: Quotes seems to be messed up. Oh but it should. The current prisons are essentially crime factories. There have been sources provided in this very thread that states people are more likely to continue being criminals after going to prison. That means the prison does not protect you from criminals, it actually makes it worse. You just delay the danger by a few years. On top of this, we know that the violence in so called "max security" prisons is going to remain mostly the same in spite of all the guards and tazers etc. Is there any evidence that high security has done anything to reduce violence in prisons? I present: http://law.wustl.edu/Journal/22/p125Specter.pdf .This was not a hard find on scholar. Not a single thing you've brought up here supports your contention that "rehabilitation should be our sole concern". Max security prisons have nothing to do with that contention and don't really belong in a debate about it. Lets take it one step further. Does anyone have any sources proclaimin any positive effects from solitary confinement or high security prisons in general? Does anyone have any sources where harsher sentences or stricter treatment of criminals had positive effects? Because I have plenty saying the opposite, as do others in this thread. Harsher sentences and stricter treatment are completely meaningless terms unless we define them specifically. I won't argue for or against them as concepts until I am aware of what, specifically, those terms imply to you and others. Come up with a solid, accepted definition of the words and we can see if I disagree or not, or can find any evidence supporting their application. Feelings such as crime deserves punishment. While understandable, these feelings do not belong in a serious debate, especially not when confronted with science that says otherwise. What scientific evidence says that crime does not deserve punishment? The statement: "crime deserves punishment" is a philosophical/moral statement, which is in no way connected to science. (Or at best, only peripherally connected). | ||
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SoSexy
Italy3725 Posts
On July 14 2013 00:10 Fenris420 wrote: Also: Nothing changes the past, including punishment. The problem is that punishment negatively implicates the future. If there are people who need criminals to be punished in order to feel good, that is an issue and we should look into it. If that is true, it makes me sad. This is so stupid. Nothing changes the past, so let's just say 'you killed someone, that's bad, but we can't change it, so since going to prison will not resurrect the poor guy, just behave well next time ok? of course we trust you, we believe in human rights.' | ||
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
The statement: "our only concern should be rehabilitation" is so patently absurd that it can be rejected almost out of hand. Obviously a respect of human rights and basic dignity of even the most horrific criminals should also be a primary concern, otherwise any and all efforts that could conceivably lead to "rehabilitation" up to and including invasive medical/psychological procedures would be morally justified until they are either deemed to be effective or non-effective at rehabilitation. Not to mention the necessary arguing over what "rehabilitated" truly means. Granting that rehabilitation is not our sole concern, we then come to the question of what our concerns should be and to what degree of importance or weight do those concerns have in relation to each other. | ||
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SoSexy
Italy3725 Posts
On July 14 2013 00:37 sc2superfan101 wrote: I should elaborate: The statement: "our only concern should be rehabilitation" is so patently absurd that it can be rejected almost out of hand. Obviously a respect of human rights and basic dignity of even the most horrific criminals should also be a primary concern, otherwise any and all efforts that could conceivably lead to "rehabilitation" up to and including invasive medical/psychological procedures would be morally justified until they are either deemed to be effective or non-effective at rehabilitation. Not to mention the necessary arguing over what "rehabilitated" truly means. Granting that rehabilitation is not our sole concern, we then come to the question of what our concerns should be and to what degree of importance or weight do those concerns have in relation to each other. No! They didn't have the primary concern themselves, when they destroyed lifes/families. When they killed/raped/did the horrific crime, it's like they signed a paper where it's written 'I'm not a human being. I'm a beast.' | ||
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
On July 14 2013 00:39 SoSexy wrote: No! They didn't have the primary concern themselves, when they destroyed lifes/families. When they killed/raped/did the horrific crime, it's like they signed a paper where it's written 'I'm not a human being. I'm a beast.' They have not done any such thing. First, let us deal with the question of whether they have any rights whatsoever. It would be clear to most people that they do. Otherwise we could justify decades of constant physical torture and maiming for someone committing a murder/rape. Only the most disturbed and depraved mind would support removing a man's appendages and limbs one by one without anesthetic over an extended period of time, no matter what said man did or didn't do. Now, are they no more than beasts? We don't torture beasts. So I suppose that grants them some rights. However, we do put beasts down quite often. I suppose you would support lethally injecting any convicted murderer once they've begun costing us too much money? And what if they are exonerated after we've done so? There have been cases of people being convicted of a crime and then revealed to be innocent. Respect for human rights should not be ignored just because the depraved showed no such respect. Otherwise we have become the very thing we're "fighting". | ||
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SoSexy
Italy3725 Posts
On July 14 2013 00:45 sc2superfan101 wrote: They have not done any such thing. First, let us deal with the question of whether they have any rights whatsoever. It would be clear to most people that they do. Otherwise we could justify decades of constant physical torture and maiming for someone committing a murder/rape. Only the most disturbed and depraved mind would support removing a man's appendages and limbs one by one without anesthetic over an extended period of time, no matter what said man did or didn't do. Now, are they no more than beasts? We don't torture beasts. So I suppose that grants them some rights. However, we do put beasts down quite often. I suppose you would support lethally injecting any convicted murderer once they've begun costing us too much money? And what if they are exonerated after we've done so? There have been cases of people being convicted of a crime and then revealed to be innocent. Respect for human rights should not be ignored just because the depraved showed no such respect. Otherwise we have become the very thing we're "fighting". First, I don't think that any prison 'removes appendages and limbs one by one without anesthetic over an extended period of time.' I'm not talking about torture. I'm talking about you commit a crime, you get X years for that crime, you go in prison, you get food/water and basic needs (toilet, bed, books if you want to read etc). Simple as that. I'm not much of a fan of death penalty, actually. I think it's too much of an easy way out. Your question, however, has a simple response. A society has to work on the wellness of the most people possible. So yes, there have been cases of innocent people getting executed, but it's a number game. Do you prefer an innocent to die or more than one innocent to die (if the guy comes out of prison and does bad stuff)? I think a society has to go by numbers. Also, I think that nowadays with all the technologies, trials are becoming quite accurate. Mistakes will always exist, but with DNA and other things it's WAY less than in the past. | ||
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