| Forum Index > General Forum |
|
Assault_1
Canada1950 Posts
On July 11 2013 11:25 Velocirapture wrote: Rehabilitation. If all the correction system does is lock people in a box until they go mad then there is no justice, just revenge. whats wrong with revenge? If someone killed my friend I wouldn't wanna "rehab" him, I'd want to make his life very shitty | ||
|
Orcasgt24
Canada3238 Posts
On July 11 2013 11:31 wUndertUnge wrote: Understandable, and while I don't agree, I think what is being protested though is that solitary is going beyond the actual terms of the punishment. Just because it's not meant to be a cakewalk, does it necessarily mean that the prison environment should be a place of chaos where we break down the prisoner further? Until someone comes up with a better idea then the super time-out that is solitary, what exactly are prison guards suppose to do to punish a prisoner for disturbing the peace in jail? The bad eggs that are starting fights with other inmates or guards have to be dealt with somehow. Its not perfect I agree but leaving them in general population is not acceptable IMO | ||
|
Subversive
Australia2229 Posts
On July 11 2013 11:25 Orcasgt24 wrote: Ummm, I may be a hard ass but prisons are not meant to be easy vacations. They are meant as punishment. The only reason your in a prison is because you did something that negatively affects society. Be a good prisoner and you won't have to go to solitary. I see no problem at all with that system. If they don't want to eat, whatever. Hopefully the corrections officials don't cave and and another 1 star to each prisons hotel rating Thank god that no one ever goes to prison unjustly, and while there, that they are never treated unfairly by the prison officials who are never bad people (although I think they have a tough job). | ||
|
Fruscainte
4596 Posts
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens. You don't get to deprave people of basic human rights and have things done to you that can very easily be perceived as torture because you stole a car or sold some weed on a street corner or held up a liquor store. | ||
|
WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On July 11 2013 11:35 Assault_1 wrote: whats wrong with revenge? If someone killed my friend I wouldn't wanna "rehab" him, I'd want to make his life very shitty How curious that you assume everyone in prison is a murderer... | ||
|
Subversive
Australia2229 Posts
On July 11 2013 11:35 Assault_1 wrote: whats wrong with revenge? If someone killed my friend I wouldn't wanna "rehab" him, I'd want to make his life very shitty Well that's a moral judgement and you're welcome to hold it. But what if instead of your friend being the one killed they are the one falsely accused of the murder and end up in jail in terrible conditions? Wouldn't it be terrible if they're the one who is tormented in the name of revenge when they did nothing wrong. Which is why the death penalty is stupid. You can't later appeal if new evidence comes to light and be set free when you've been executed. | ||
|
wUndertUnge
United States1125 Posts
On July 11 2013 11:36 Orcasgt24 wrote: Until someone comes up with a better idea then the super time-out that is solitary, what exactly are prison guards suppose to do to punish a prisoner for disturbing the peace in jail? The bad eggs that are starting fights with other inmates or guards have to be dealt with somehow. Its not perfect I agree but leaving them in general population is not acceptable IMO Well, from my understanding, they're unduly using solitary. It's a slippery slope. If you can punish the max. security guys, then we can threaten even the most minor guy with solitary. Then after spending a week in the whole, this suddenly low-level and low-threat guy is suddenly disturbed and he gets caught in a cycle. A lot of this is conjecture and speculation on my part from the little I've read in these articles (and from my experiences in Prison Architect! :D ). I agree, though. For the safety of everyone, majorly violent guys need to be separated somehow, but I can't help that it's actually contributing to the very problem they're trying to avoid. Also, just because it's the best thing we've got going so far, doesn't mean people who actually come up with prison policy can't stretch their noggins a bit. As Plexa's article above points out, we've outgrown such punitive measures of hitting children in classrooms. It's a leap of logic on our parts and a sweeping away of some deeply ingrain assumptions on our part on prisoner treatment, but there just might be a better way. Then again, I'm an idealist and a progressive, so what do I know...  | ||
|
Fruscainte
4596 Posts
On July 11 2013 11:35 Assault_1 wrote: whats wrong with revenge? If someone killed my friend I wouldn't wanna "rehab" him, I'd want to make his life very shitty Good thing prison isn't about retribution or making you feel better. It's also a good thing that more than 50% of our prison population are incarcerated for non-violent crimes. | ||
|
wUndertUnge
United States1125 Posts
8th amendment: Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted. Also Plexa, interesting that 50% of the prison population are these aborigines who make up way less than half of the general population, what I imagine are a parallel to U.S. blacks and latinos? | ||
|
Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On July 11 2013 11:35 Assault_1 wrote: whats wrong with revenge? If someone killed my friend I wouldn't wanna "rehab" him, I'd want to make his life very shitty It's fucking stupid, that's what's wrong with it. Currently, the U.S. prison system is WAY overcrowded, which then leads to two things. 1) We are wasting a LOT of money. Prison is a massive sinkhole for taxpayer dollars to go into. 2) Because of overcrowding, prison culture, and the horrible conditions/programs in prisons, people that go into prison are significantly more likely to come out as worse criminals than before, and therefore either repeat their past crimes or commit worse ones. So yea, retribution may sound great and all, but it's actually really, really counterproductive. There really aren't any long-term positives about our prison system. For the duration of keeping the dangerous away from society, we're wasting a ton of money, and when they finally get out, they are even more dangerous to society. | ||
|
wUndertUnge
United States1125 Posts
On July 11 2013 11:50 Stratos_speAr wrote: It's fucking stupid, that's what's wrong with it. Currently, the U.S. prison system is WAY overcrowded, which then leads to two things. 1) We are wasting a LOT of money. Prison is a massive sinkhole for taxpayer dollars to go into. 2) Because of overcrowding, prison culture, and the horrible conditions/programs in prisons, people that go into prison are significantly more likely to come out as worse criminals than before, and therefore either repeat their past crimes or commit worse ones. So yea, retribution may sound great and all, but it's actually really, really counterproductive. There really aren't any long-term positives about our prison system. For the duration of keeping the dangerous away from society, we're wasting a ton of money, and when they finally get out, they are even more dangerous to society. Yes. Fairly short-sighted to think that we can just do what we want with people who have been incarcerated because they "deserve" it, and that it won't have repercussions for those of us on the other side of the cell. It's not that easy. | ||
|
Velocirapture
United States983 Posts
On July 11 2013 11:35 Assault_1 wrote: whats wrong with revenge? If someone killed my friend I wouldn't wanna "rehab" him, I'd want to make his life very shitty This is why we have revenge integrated into the system even if it is not a rational problem solving tool. When it comes down to it though, while some emotional pandering is necessary to keep order the greater goal is to reduce crime as much as possible. Recidivism is incredibly high and a huge number of criminals who go into prison as non-violent offenders come out as something much worse. What justice means to me is doing everything possible to make right what can be made right, getting as close as possible when corrections are impossible and addressing the issues which led to the infraction in the first place. Prison should only be used in the most extreme cases where whole life solutions are necessary and then lifetime imprisonment should only be considered when psychiatric/educational reformation seems impossible. The logistics of such an operation are daunting, especially given the considerable corrections which are made necessary by the brutality of our current system, but you have to start somewhere. | ||
|
phodacbiet
United States1739 Posts
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens. No. Because sometimes they got arrested for things like.. tax evasion, weed possession, or something minor and to be treated like that is unnecessary. Sure for the most crazy murderers these punishment MIGHT make sense but these prisoners still should deserve to be treated like human beings. | ||
|
Orcasgt24
Canada3238 Posts
On July 11 2013 12:01 phodacbiet wrote: No. Because sometimes they got arrested for things like.. tax evasion, weed possession, or something minor and to be treated like that is unnecessary. Sure for the most crazy murderers these punishment MIGHT make sense but these prisoners still should deserve to be treated like human beings. Those are the kinds of prisoners who are not likely to be put in solitary. Most of those kinds of criminals will get out early due to good behavior. One thing that alot of people fail to realize is prison guards have nothing to threaten prisoners with except solitary. The punishment for crime is jail. That threat doesn't work on prisoners, they are already in jail. The only way they can keep order is by being quick with putting misbehaving inmates in solitary. They have to be able to do something. I realize its a cruel punishment but nobody has created a better idea. Its why Canada has min, medium and Max security prisons. They toss the tax evasion/weed possession/Unpaid parking ticket guys in the min and the murders, drug dealers and rapists in max. | ||
|
darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
I have no doubt that solitary confinement/individual cells have a place for individuals who are already so deranged and dangerous that they can't be allowed to stay with the general prison population, though the death penalty (assuming properly applied) is another solution to that problem. Still, having relatives who have been through prison, I know for a fact that prison guards can be pretty awful sometimes and will get you locked in solitary for a time just because they have a beef with you or because someone else is out to get you and sets you up for something that gets punished with solitary. Again, I'd like to stress the ideal situation is rehabilitation and release, and yet we live in a society that tries to keep people in prison to make money rather than try to fix and release them. I just don't see how solitary confinement helps accomplish the former rather than the latter, given the medical evidence. | ||
|
WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On July 11 2013 12:05 Orcasgt24 wrote: Those are the kinds of prisoners who are not likely to be put in solitary. Most of those kinds of criminals will get out early due to good behavior. The charges that put you in prison have absolutely no relation to your behaviour inside of prison. In fact, a trademark of many serial killers and the like is extremely personable demeanor. | ||
|
SomethingWitty
Canada94 Posts
On July 11 2013 10:48 GhostOwl wrote: They will eventually eat. Let them perform their hunger strike. There is a reason why they are in prison in the first place. Once they have commited the crimes that landed them in prison, their basic rights were taken away. They don't deserve the same rights as normal citizens. "The average sentence for persons convicted of a marijuana felony in state court in 2000 was 28 months (median = 12 months) for incarceration and 40 months (median = 36 months) for probation". The figures calculated for this study use the same indicator variables as the Bureau of Justice Statistics study in an effort to permit comparison. The mean and median refer to the http://www.harmreductionjournal.com/content/3/1/6 maximum sentence length in which the offense under discussion is the most serious. "In 2000, the average sentence for a person convicted of aggravated assault in a state court and sentenced to incarceration (prison or jail) was 37 months (median = 16 months), while the average sentence for persons sentenced to probation for a felony was 40 months (median = 36 months)". Durose mr, Langan PA: Felony Sentences in State Courts, 2000 Washington, DC: Bureau of Justice Statistics. NCJ 198821; 2003 "The number of incarcerated drug offenders has increased twelvefold since 1980. In 2000, 22 percent of those in federal and state prisons were convicted on drug charges". http://www.hrw.org/legacy/backgrounder/usa/incarceration/ I don't think it's at all reasonable to suggest that people sentenced to over two years in prison due to marijuana possession deserve to be tortured. Please, next time, put like 10 seconds of thought into your post, or, if you want to be really exceptional, go and read about the subject for 5 minutes. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 11 2013 11:45 wUndertUnge wrote: Just a refresher for me and you guys alike: 8th amendment: Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted. Also Plexa, interesting that 50% of the prison population are these aborigines who make up way less than half of the general population, what I imagine are a parallel to U.S. blacks and latinos? Yeah pretty much. That tends to be a recurring theme unfortunately.  | ||
|
Epishade
United States2267 Posts
On July 11 2013 12:11 WolfintheSheep wrote: The charges that put you in prison have absolutely no relation to your behaviour inside of prison. In fact, a trademark of many serial killers and the like is extremely personable demeanor. I wouldn't say that is is "no relation". You don't think some person who's always behaving very angrily isn't more likely to fly off the handle and kill someone? Sure, anyone could kill someone else regardless of behavior, but to say there's absolutely no correlation between charges and behavior, at least in the case of murder as in the example I used, is unreasonable. | ||
|
Deleted User 123474
292 Posts
On July 11 2013 12:11 WolfintheSheep wrote: The charges that put you in prison have absolutely no relation to your behaviour inside of prison. In fact, a trademark of many serial killers and the like is extremely personable demeanor. LOL, tell that to the Korean killer in the large University killing a few years back (somewhere in the US). Whacked as a cornflake. That sounds like a bit of confirmation bias with a helpful serving of dramatic movies that shaped your opinion. All this talk about weed possession and the like getting way too long of sentences -- relatively speaking, I agree with you. From the evidence the above poster gave. But they absolutely deserve it. You can talk about the prison system needing to be better and blah blah blah but I honestly can't think that sending a mugger, even, to a friendly rehabilitation center to get a degree and watch TV, or giving him a stern talking-to and a $100 fine are reasonable alternatives. Norway does seem to be doing better but they're very homogeneous, very small, and very rich. It's an interesting talking point but not really comparable to the US. | ||
| ||
StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War Dota 2 Counter-Strike Super Smash Bros Other Games Organizations Other Games StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War |
|
Replay Cast
Replay Cast
SOOP
SKillous vs Spirit
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
PiG Sty Festival
Serral vs TriGGeR
Cure vs SHIN
The PondCast
Replay Cast
PiG Sty Festival
Clem vs Bunny
Solar vs Zoun
Replay Cast
Korean StarCraft League
[ Show More ] |
|
|
EPT
