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TLADT24920 Posts
I haven't been following this stuff in great details, but I've read an article that was written sometime last year explaining what Brexit actually means and how intertwined the UK is with the EU. Honestly, from my perspective, the UK leaving the EU is one of the stupidest moves that will be done, especially if you guys leave with no deal. Tariffs, transportation, everything will be affected greatly. I really think people underestimate just how much the economy will be hit. For example, a lot of vets who check for conditions such as Mad Cow Disease at the border before meat makes it into the UK are EU-trained and would return to the EU once Brexit is complete leaving a deficit there.
Transportation for new routes will be vastly different compared to doing things within the EU, not to mention that with borders in place again, now you have high tariffs on goods moving in and out. A new trading partner wouldn't guarantee that you'll get a good deal either because you are desperate to get one while places like the US, India or China already have their deals with other countries meaning that they'll try and squeeze things to their advantage. Not to mention that costs of transportation will be imo astronomically higher depending on where new deals are made. And this is me just keeping it basic because if you get deep down to it, the UK has become so intertwined with the EU that leaving really feels like a crazy move to me.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On March 21 2019 18:59 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 18:21 Pandemona wrote:
The vote was to leave the EU plain and simple. It comes down to how you interpreted it with or without a deal, but it was straight up voted for as a divorce from the EU due to the money we were spending etc etc.
Now whether wrong or right, that is the "will of the people" they are calling for in Parliament, which is right.
The giving people a vote back will do nothing but cause more mayhem, it will again be another close vote and again each side will cause uprorar when they lose/win. Lots of people have "changed sides", i went from voting to stay first time round, to now if i had another choice i would vote to leave, but that works both ways, people who voted to leave will now vote to stay.
Most of the general consensus in the UK right now, is that this has gone on so long and our government is so stupid that we just want it over, regardless of staying in or leaving, just make a freaking decision. Mr Speaker has now delayed that even further with not allowing May to bring her deal back again which in fairness might have actually gotten through, even if it didn't nothing would have been lost. We are now going to delay until June 30th and nothing will change in the mean time.
UK hasn't shot themselves in the foot either, we survived more than long enough before the EU came along and we will survive without it again if that becomes the case. Out of morbid curiosity, what in the world made you look at the ongoing shitshow and somehow change your opinion from "stay" to "leave"? The reason they're having so much trouble to begin with is because there are no good ways to leave where UK remains in a good position after. The deals that are on the table and at all possible puts UK in a weaker position, and doesn't even grant them the red lines that the referendum was crusading on to begin with. No deal is going to be absolutely destructive for the UKs economy. Not to mention the border issues in Ireland. There are no good things to come out of this, and anyone remotely educated on the subject knew this before the referendum. Unfortunately, lies playing on the emotions of xenophobia and sentimentality tends to be stronger than the truth.
It is quite clear for me as it is down to the arrogance that the EU had handled these negotiations. Some of the wording of statements from Tusk is disgusting and add in the petty swipes from France and sometimes Germany is awful to read and listen too. People act like the EU is the godsend to the world and makes everything ok which is far from it, they WANT and birthed Article 13 ffs.
People also forget why the European Union was made and what it was sold to everyone as....it was sold as a customs trade union AND THAT IS. Nothing else, yet it has evolved into a huge powerhouse run by a select few which is far from fair in the eyes of a lot of people.
Now this isn't to say that it doesn't do some good, but just like all governments across the world it also does its fair share of bad. This is why i do not mind if we stay or leave.
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And the longer this discussion goes, the worse it gets.
Already big companies are leaving their UK locations cause they don't know what's going to happen. When the Brexit finally arrives for good, UK economy might be already in shambles.
Best case: Nothing much changes, life goes on
Worst case: UK will be degraded to a third world country (okay this might be exaggerated)
What is there to gain? I don't get it. I don't see any upsides for the Brexit?
I'm not much involved with politics in general but this seems like trump-level stupidity in my eyes. No offense
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On March 21 2019 21:10 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 18:59 Excludos wrote:On March 21 2019 18:21 Pandemona wrote:
The vote was to leave the EU plain and simple. It comes down to how you interpreted it with or without a deal, but it was straight up voted for as a divorce from the EU due to the money we were spending etc etc.
Now whether wrong or right, that is the "will of the people" they are calling for in Parliament, which is right.
The giving people a vote back will do nothing but cause more mayhem, it will again be another close vote and again each side will cause uprorar when they lose/win. Lots of people have "changed sides", i went from voting to stay first time round, to now if i had another choice i would vote to leave, but that works both ways, people who voted to leave will now vote to stay.
Most of the general consensus in the UK right now, is that this has gone on so long and our government is so stupid that we just want it over, regardless of staying in or leaving, just make a freaking decision. Mr Speaker has now delayed that even further with not allowing May to bring her deal back again which in fairness might have actually gotten through, even if it didn't nothing would have been lost. We are now going to delay until June 30th and nothing will change in the mean time.
UK hasn't shot themselves in the foot either, we survived more than long enough before the EU came along and we will survive without it again if that becomes the case. Out of morbid curiosity, what in the world made you look at the ongoing shitshow and somehow change your opinion from "stay" to "leave"? The reason they're having so much trouble to begin with is because there are no good ways to leave where UK remains in a good position after. The deals that are on the table and at all possible puts UK in a weaker position, and doesn't even grant them the red lines that the referendum was crusading on to begin with. No deal is going to be absolutely destructive for the UKs economy. Not to mention the border issues in Ireland. There are no good things to come out of this, and anyone remotely educated on the subject knew this before the referendum. Unfortunately, lies playing on the emotions of xenophobia and sentimentality tends to be stronger than the truth. It is quite clear for me as it is down to the arrogance that the EU had handled these negotiations. Some of the wording of statements from Tusk is disgusting and add in the petty swipes from France and sometimes Germany is awful to read and listen too. People act like the EU is the godsend to the world and makes everything ok which is far from it, they WANT and birthed Article 13 ffs. People also forget why the European Union was made and what it was sold to everyone as....it was sold as a customs trade union AND THAT IS. Nothing else, yet it has evolved into a huge powerhouse run by a select few which is far from fair in the eyes of a lot of people. Now this isn't to say that it doesn't do some good, but just like all governments across the world it also does its fair share of bad. This is why i do not mind if we stay or leave.
When have EU politicians been taking subtle arrogant digs at the UK? Other than to say things like "the UK needs the EU more than the EU needs the UK" which isn't a dig. It's the truth.
Other than that he might have said some things about UK politicians being fucking idiots. But that is also just the truth. The fact that your politicians can't get their act together is NOT donald tusk's fault. And him pointing it out doesn't make him arrogant.
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TIL that EU leaders calling out UK officials on their incompetence makes them arrogant, and that they need to be put in their place by steering the UK into an economic nosedive.
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On March 21 2019 21:10 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 18:59 Excludos wrote:On March 21 2019 18:21 Pandemona wrote:
The vote was to leave the EU plain and simple. It comes down to how you interpreted it with or without a deal, but it was straight up voted for as a divorce from the EU due to the money we were spending etc etc.
Now whether wrong or right, that is the "will of the people" they are calling for in Parliament, which is right.
The giving people a vote back will do nothing but cause more mayhem, it will again be another close vote and again each side will cause uprorar when they lose/win. Lots of people have "changed sides", i went from voting to stay first time round, to now if i had another choice i would vote to leave, but that works both ways, people who voted to leave will now vote to stay.
Most of the general consensus in the UK right now, is that this has gone on so long and our government is so stupid that we just want it over, regardless of staying in or leaving, just make a freaking decision. Mr Speaker has now delayed that even further with not allowing May to bring her deal back again which in fairness might have actually gotten through, even if it didn't nothing would have been lost. We are now going to delay until June 30th and nothing will change in the mean time.
UK hasn't shot themselves in the foot either, we survived more than long enough before the EU came along and we will survive without it again if that becomes the case. Out of morbid curiosity, what in the world made you look at the ongoing shitshow and somehow change your opinion from "stay" to "leave"? The reason they're having so much trouble to begin with is because there are no good ways to leave where UK remains in a good position after. The deals that are on the table and at all possible puts UK in a weaker position, and doesn't even grant them the red lines that the referendum was crusading on to begin with. No deal is going to be absolutely destructive for the UKs economy. Not to mention the border issues in Ireland. There are no good things to come out of this, and anyone remotely educated on the subject knew this before the referendum. Unfortunately, lies playing on the emotions of xenophobia and sentimentality tends to be stronger than the truth. It is quite clear for me as it is down to the arrogance that the EU had handled these negotiations. Some of the wording of statements from Tusk is disgusting and add in the petty swipes from France and sometimes Germany is awful to read and listen too. People act like the EU is the godsend to the world and makes everything ok which is far from it, they WANT and birthed Article 13 ffs. People also forget why the European Union was made and what it was sold to everyone as....it was sold as a customs trade union AND THAT IS. Nothing else, yet it has evolved into a huge powerhouse run by a select few which is far from fair in the eyes of a lot of people. Now this isn't to say that it doesn't do some good, but just like all governments across the world it also does its fair share of bad. This is why i do not mind if we stay or leave.
Iirc this view that the EU was "only a customs/trade union" is a very british view. At least the vote about the EWR in Switzerland back in 1992(?) was lost exactly because the EU, the EWR was seen as prestage to membership, was allways portraied as more than just a trade union/deal.
For eastern european countries the EU is also "protection" from Russia...
Now i don't know if your media or politicians lied to you for the last ~30 years but judging by the knowledge the average Brexiteer had (and many still have) about the EU it seems like you just didn't care and your politicians/media just used the EU as the boogeyman for everything bad that happened in the UK.
Btw: I love how the EU is seen as undemocratic while your head of state is an actual queen and seat by birthright in the house of lords is still a thing.
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People are absolutely furious about May's speech yesterday.
The idea of the speech was to provide soundbytes that will fit nicely in a facebook video as a quick byline, but they've underestimated the reaction to her demagogery. Pitting the public against the MPs whose support she needs for a deal is probably going to be her final mistake, or at least her biggest mistake to date.
Even if she was right, it was a terribly misjudged speech.
I wish there was precedent for getting rid of everyone from both front benches and choosing entirely new people to lead both parties.
All of this is very embarrasing. The UK was supposed to be pragmatic and reasonable, and now our PM has decided to take pointers on diplomacy from the other side of the Atlantic. Next she'll be calling her MPs enemies of the people.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On March 21 2019 21:18 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 21:10 Pandemona wrote:On March 21 2019 18:59 Excludos wrote:On March 21 2019 18:21 Pandemona wrote:
The vote was to leave the EU plain and simple. It comes down to how you interpreted it with or without a deal, but it was straight up voted for as a divorce from the EU due to the money we were spending etc etc.
Now whether wrong or right, that is the "will of the people" they are calling for in Parliament, which is right.
The giving people a vote back will do nothing but cause more mayhem, it will again be another close vote and again each side will cause uprorar when they lose/win. Lots of people have "changed sides", i went from voting to stay first time round, to now if i had another choice i would vote to leave, but that works both ways, people who voted to leave will now vote to stay.
Most of the general consensus in the UK right now, is that this has gone on so long and our government is so stupid that we just want it over, regardless of staying in or leaving, just make a freaking decision. Mr Speaker has now delayed that even further with not allowing May to bring her deal back again which in fairness might have actually gotten through, even if it didn't nothing would have been lost. We are now going to delay until June 30th and nothing will change in the mean time.
UK hasn't shot themselves in the foot either, we survived more than long enough before the EU came along and we will survive without it again if that becomes the case. Out of morbid curiosity, what in the world made you look at the ongoing shitshow and somehow change your opinion from "stay" to "leave"? The reason they're having so much trouble to begin with is because there are no good ways to leave where UK remains in a good position after. The deals that are on the table and at all possible puts UK in a weaker position, and doesn't even grant them the red lines that the referendum was crusading on to begin with. No deal is going to be absolutely destructive for the UKs economy. Not to mention the border issues in Ireland. There are no good things to come out of this, and anyone remotely educated on the subject knew this before the referendum. Unfortunately, lies playing on the emotions of xenophobia and sentimentality tends to be stronger than the truth. It is quite clear for me as it is down to the arrogance that the EU had handled these negotiations. Some of the wording of statements from Tusk is disgusting and add in the petty swipes from France and sometimes Germany is awful to read and listen too. People act like the EU is the godsend to the world and makes everything ok which is far from it, they WANT and birthed Article 13 ffs. People also forget why the European Union was made and what it was sold to everyone as....it was sold as a customs trade union AND THAT IS. Nothing else, yet it has evolved into a huge powerhouse run by a select few which is far from fair in the eyes of a lot of people. Now this isn't to say that it doesn't do some good, but just like all governments across the world it also does its fair share of bad. This is why i do not mind if we stay or leave. When have EU politicians been taking subtle arrogant digs at the UK? Other than to say things like "the UK needs the EU more than the EU needs the UK" which isn't a dig. It's the truth. Other than that he might have said some things about UK politicians being fucking idiots. But that is also just the truth. The fact that your politicians can't get their act together is NOT donald tusk's fault. And him pointing it out doesn't make him arrogant.
He said "their is a special place in hell for those brexiteers wishing to leave without a deal" hardly a PC way of dealing with a situation is it?
He told our prime minsiter at the time David Cameron to "get real" over his "stupid referendum" offer to the UK public on Brexit in the first place when it was proposed because the majority of the country wanted it.
The DUP who are the centre of this whole thing with the backstop also have blasted Tusk for his comments from the leader to her deputies. They have called him a "devilish tyrant" and the leader said he is being "deliberately provocative" and "disrespectful". Those aren't my words they are from the DUP mps and their leader who musts know about what is happening in the negotiations more than me and you...
His social media account is riddled with sly comments like a picture of him offering a cake to Primeminister May with the caption, "a cake, but no cherry" in reference to the negotiations that week in which Brussels said the UK wanted to have its cake and eat it. With the cherry referencing that we were "cherry picking which parts we wanted in the deal"...
He also doesn't even just fire shots at the UK, he fired shots at France and Germany them signing their Treaty of Aachen a special treaty to allow them to cooperate in areas even more than before in defense, economy etc etc. Yet Tusk fires off a tweet demanding they both say that this will not undermine the strength of the EU and something about small treaty's won't effect the larger picture of the EUs defense together.
Guy is a bit crazy and winds people up the wrong way just like Trump does...but without the power really as the guy might be the "leader" but he can be veto'd extremely easily.
On March 21 2019 21:29 Excludos wrote:
TIL that EU leaders calling out UK officials on their incompetence makes them arrogant, and that they need to be put in their place by steering the UK into an economic nosedive.
Also is not what i am saying, even if it was what right does anyone outside of the UK have to call our politicians shit when EVERYONE'S politicians are fucking shite?
Belgium, Germany, France, Italy, America...shall we continue?
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On March 21 2019 21:44 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 21:18 Acrofales wrote:On March 21 2019 21:10 Pandemona wrote:On March 21 2019 18:59 Excludos wrote:On March 21 2019 18:21 Pandemona wrote:
The vote was to leave the EU plain and simple. It comes down to how you interpreted it with or without a deal, but it was straight up voted for as a divorce from the EU due to the money we were spending etc etc.
Now whether wrong or right, that is the "will of the people" they are calling for in Parliament, which is right.
The giving people a vote back will do nothing but cause more mayhem, it will again be another close vote and again each side will cause uprorar when they lose/win. Lots of people have "changed sides", i went from voting to stay first time round, to now if i had another choice i would vote to leave, but that works both ways, people who voted to leave will now vote to stay.
Most of the general consensus in the UK right now, is that this has gone on so long and our government is so stupid that we just want it over, regardless of staying in or leaving, just make a freaking decision. Mr Speaker has now delayed that even further with not allowing May to bring her deal back again which in fairness might have actually gotten through, even if it didn't nothing would have been lost. We are now going to delay until June 30th and nothing will change in the mean time.
UK hasn't shot themselves in the foot either, we survived more than long enough before the EU came along and we will survive without it again if that becomes the case. Out of morbid curiosity, what in the world made you look at the ongoing shitshow and somehow change your opinion from "stay" to "leave"? The reason they're having so much trouble to begin with is because there are no good ways to leave where UK remains in a good position after. The deals that are on the table and at all possible puts UK in a weaker position, and doesn't even grant them the red lines that the referendum was crusading on to begin with. No deal is going to be absolutely destructive for the UKs economy. Not to mention the border issues in Ireland. There are no good things to come out of this, and anyone remotely educated on the subject knew this before the referendum. Unfortunately, lies playing on the emotions of xenophobia and sentimentality tends to be stronger than the truth. It is quite clear for me as it is down to the arrogance that the EU had handled these negotiations. Some of the wording of statements from Tusk is disgusting and add in the petty swipes from France and sometimes Germany is awful to read and listen too. People act like the EU is the godsend to the world and makes everything ok which is far from it, they WANT and birthed Article 13 ffs. People also forget why the European Union was made and what it was sold to everyone as....it was sold as a customs trade union AND THAT IS. Nothing else, yet it has evolved into a huge powerhouse run by a select few which is far from fair in the eyes of a lot of people. Now this isn't to say that it doesn't do some good, but just like all governments across the world it also does its fair share of bad. This is why i do not mind if we stay or leave. When have EU politicians been taking subtle arrogant digs at the UK? Other than to say things like "the UK needs the EU more than the EU needs the UK" which isn't a dig. It's the truth. Other than that he might have said some things about UK politicians being fucking idiots. But that is also just the truth. The fact that your politicians can't get their act together is NOT donald tusk's fault. And him pointing it out doesn't make him arrogant. He said "their is a special place in hell for those brexiteers wishing to leave without a deal" hardly a PC way of dealing with a situation is it?
"Creative quoting" doesn't do you any favour. That was not what he said.
edit: also, wouldn't you agree that in some cultures, calling someone a "devilish dictator" could potentially be seen as "disrespectful" as well? Likening the EU to Nazi Germany like BoJo did could also be considered not entirely PC. Nor comparing the EU to a Soviet prison like Jeremy Hunt did, which to people who lived under Soviet suppression could be viewed as particularly discourteous or straight up rude! But sure, EU are the rude ones. That cake-joke is unforgivable.
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Excludos, I wouldn't put any stock in Pandemona saying that he voted for stay but now supports leave, as he has consistently expressed "leave" (if I am being kind) or UKIP (if I am not being as kind) talking points consistently even before the referendum, be it on issues like trade, or immigration, "taking back control", paying money to the EU or indeed in this case the "will of the people" and has never really said anything in favour of staying.
In fact I would go so far as to say that he just regurgitates Daily Mail and UKIP slogans, if memory serves of the referendum. Take back control, 350 million, the people have spoken, romanian hordes, I'm sure they are all phrases he has written here.
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What are the chances Theresa May's bizarre speech makes the EU reject the extension.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On March 21 2019 21:29 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 21:10 Pandemona wrote:On March 21 2019 18:59 Excludos wrote:On March 21 2019 18:21 Pandemona wrote:
The vote was to leave the EU plain and simple. It comes down to how you interpreted it with or without a deal, but it was straight up voted for as a divorce from the EU due to the money we were spending etc etc.
Now whether wrong or right, that is the "will of the people" they are calling for in Parliament, which is right.
The giving people a vote back will do nothing but cause more mayhem, it will again be another close vote and again each side will cause uprorar when they lose/win. Lots of people have "changed sides", i went from voting to stay first time round, to now if i had another choice i would vote to leave, but that works both ways, people who voted to leave will now vote to stay.
Most of the general consensus in the UK right now, is that this has gone on so long and our government is so stupid that we just want it over, regardless of staying in or leaving, just make a freaking decision. Mr Speaker has now delayed that even further with not allowing May to bring her deal back again which in fairness might have actually gotten through, even if it didn't nothing would have been lost. We are now going to delay until June 30th and nothing will change in the mean time.
UK hasn't shot themselves in the foot either, we survived more than long enough before the EU came along and we will survive without it again if that becomes the case. Out of morbid curiosity, what in the world made you look at the ongoing shitshow and somehow change your opinion from "stay" to "leave"? The reason they're having so much trouble to begin with is because there are no good ways to leave where UK remains in a good position after. The deals that are on the table and at all possible puts UK in a weaker position, and doesn't even grant them the red lines that the referendum was crusading on to begin with. No deal is going to be absolutely destructive for the UKs economy. Not to mention the border issues in Ireland. There are no good things to come out of this, and anyone remotely educated on the subject knew this before the referendum. Unfortunately, lies playing on the emotions of xenophobia and sentimentality tends to be stronger than the truth. It is quite clear for me as it is down to the arrogance that the EU had handled these negotiations. Some of the wording of statements from Tusk is disgusting and add in the petty swipes from France and sometimes Germany is awful to read and listen too. People act like the EU is the godsend to the world and makes everything ok which is far from it, they WANT and birthed Article 13 ffs. People also forget why the European Union was made and what it was sold to everyone as....it was sold as a customs trade union AND THAT IS. Nothing else, yet it has evolved into a huge powerhouse run by a select few which is far from fair in the eyes of a lot of people. Now this isn't to say that it doesn't do some good, but just like all governments across the world it also does its fair share of bad. This is why i do not mind if we stay or leave. Iirc this view that the EU was "only a customs/trade union" is a very british view. At least the vote about the EWR in Switzerland back in 1992(?) was lost exactly because the EU, the EWR was seen as prestage to membership, was allways portraied as more than just a trade union/deal. For eastern european countries the EU is also "protection" from Russia... Now i don't know if your media or politicians lied to you for the last ~30 years but judging by the knowledge the average Brexiteer had (and many still have) about the EU it seems like you just didn't care and your politicians/media just used the EU as the boogeyman for everything bad that happened in the UK. Btw: I love how the EU is seen as undemocratic while your head of state is an actual queen and seat by birthright in the house of lords is still a thing.
We joined after being veto'd twice by Gualle French priminister in the 60s twice!! Before finally being accepted in by 1972 i think it was. The reason we entered is because then the EU6 were all doing better than us economically and we joined to get a piece of this alongside Norway, Ireland and Denmark i think it was? But then literally in the 80s Maggie Thatcher was going to war with a lot of them over things like payments and the fact it was beginning to start to become a "powerhouse" in which Brussels was trying its hardest to grab at. This caused a stir and was the start of her downfall in the conservative party as at that point they were the strong believers in the EU and the reason we were in it in the first place.
But we joined based on the fact that the EU6 were way stronger economically due to the trade deals they had and it took us a while to get in because of the deals we had in place with US and the commonwealth, but once the US signaled their support for the EU we were free to ask to join. But back then that is all it was sold to us as, not sure if there was anything more back then but that is what it was. Pay into a customs union type trade treaty.
On March 21 2019 22:02 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Excludos, I wouldn't put any stock in Pandemona saying that he voted for stay but now supports leave, as he has consistently expressed "leave" (if I am being kind) or UKIP (if I am not being as kind) talking points consistently even before the referendum, be it on issues like trade, or immigration, "taking back control", paying money to the EU or indeed in this case the "will of the people" and has never really said anything in favour of staying.
In fact I would go so far as to say that he just regurgitates Daily Mail and UKIP slogans, if memory serves of the referendum. Take back control, 350 million, the people have spoken, romanian hordes, I'm sure they are all phrases he has written here.
I voted to stay? I have not changed my mind on that for a while, i didn't mind losing the vote but never thought we would. I have never stated any of what you suggested either you are clearly confusing me with someone else. So please do not do that, that is not fair unless you back it up because i have not said anything like that at all.
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On March 21 2019 22:06 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
What are the chances Theresa May's bizarre speech makes the EU reject the extension.
A lot of ppl I know want them kicked out by now. Let's see if they land on their feet or come crawling back
At least with this scenario all the parties in the UK might be united again for the common goal and with a common "enemy"
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On March 21 2019 22:06 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
What are the chances Theresa May's bizarre speech makes the EU reject the extension. Because of the speech itself? None.
The EU was already very likely to reject the extension without signs that the UK Parliament would accept a deal.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On March 21 2019 21:51 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 21:44 Pandemona wrote:On March 21 2019 21:18 Acrofales wrote:On March 21 2019 21:10 Pandemona wrote:On March 21 2019 18:59 Excludos wrote:On March 21 2019 18:21 Pandemona wrote:
The vote was to leave the EU plain and simple. It comes down to how you interpreted it with or without a deal, but it was straight up voted for as a divorce from the EU due to the money we were spending etc etc.
Now whether wrong or right, that is the "will of the people" they are calling for in Parliament, which is right.
The giving people a vote back will do nothing but cause more mayhem, it will again be another close vote and again each side will cause uprorar when they lose/win. Lots of people have "changed sides", i went from voting to stay first time round, to now if i had another choice i would vote to leave, but that works both ways, people who voted to leave will now vote to stay.
Most of the general consensus in the UK right now, is that this has gone on so long and our government is so stupid that we just want it over, regardless of staying in or leaving, just make a freaking decision. Mr Speaker has now delayed that even further with not allowing May to bring her deal back again which in fairness might have actually gotten through, even if it didn't nothing would have been lost. We are now going to delay until June 30th and nothing will change in the mean time.
UK hasn't shot themselves in the foot either, we survived more than long enough before the EU came along and we will survive without it again if that becomes the case. Out of morbid curiosity, what in the world made you look at the ongoing shitshow and somehow change your opinion from "stay" to "leave"? The reason they're having so much trouble to begin with is because there are no good ways to leave where UK remains in a good position after. The deals that are on the table and at all possible puts UK in a weaker position, and doesn't even grant them the red lines that the referendum was crusading on to begin with. No deal is going to be absolutely destructive for the UKs economy. Not to mention the border issues in Ireland. There are no good things to come out of this, and anyone remotely educated on the subject knew this before the referendum. Unfortunately, lies playing on the emotions of xenophobia and sentimentality tends to be stronger than the truth. It is quite clear for me as it is down to the arrogance that the EU had handled these negotiations. Some of the wording of statements from Tusk is disgusting and add in the petty swipes from France and sometimes Germany is awful to read and listen too. People act like the EU is the godsend to the world and makes everything ok which is far from it, they WANT and birthed Article 13 ffs. People also forget why the European Union was made and what it was sold to everyone as....it was sold as a customs trade union AND THAT IS. Nothing else, yet it has evolved into a huge powerhouse run by a select few which is far from fair in the eyes of a lot of people. Now this isn't to say that it doesn't do some good, but just like all governments across the world it also does its fair share of bad. This is why i do not mind if we stay or leave. When have EU politicians been taking subtle arrogant digs at the UK? Other than to say things like "the UK needs the EU more than the EU needs the UK" which isn't a dig. It's the truth. Other than that he might have said some things about UK politicians being fucking idiots. But that is also just the truth. The fact that your politicians can't get their act together is NOT donald tusk's fault. And him pointing it out doesn't make him arrogant. He said "their is a special place in hell for those brexiteers wishing to leave without a deal" hardly a PC way of dealing with a situation is it? "Creative quoting" doesn't do you any favour. That was not what he said. edit: also, wouldn't you agree that in some cultures, calling someone a "devilish dictator" could potentially be seen as "disrespectful" as well? Likening the EU to Nazi Germany like BoJo did could also be considered not entirely PC. Nor comparing the EU to a Soviet prison like Jeremy Hunt did, which to people who lived under Soviet suppression could be viewed as particularly discourteous or straight up rude! But sure, EU are the rude ones. That cake-joke is unforgivable.
This is the exact quote;
I've been wondering what that special place in hell looks like, for those who promoted #Brexit, without even a sketch of a plan how to carry it out safely.
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That statement is harsh, but fair. People advocating to back out of 40 years worth of international trade and travel agreements without a plan to do it smoothly a the worst sort of political grifters.
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On March 21 2019 05:32 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 05:28 Gorsameth wrote:On March 21 2019 05:13 Jockmcplop wrote:
I hope Corbyn and May both resign soon.
They don't know how to do their respective jobs. May's past exploits aside I think she has done what she can with a useless situation. There exists no deal that can get through Parliament, she tried the only deal she could get from the EU twice. Doing anything else is going against the people's will (stupid tho the people are). Its lose-lose-lose no matter what way you turn. Yes but she could have started the process of trying to get agreement from Parliament 2 years ago instead of 2 months ago and everything would have been much less stupid. There was no plan, and no plan to start planning. This lasted until around 90 days before Brexit. You're wrong about May, and wrong about her government. The level of incompetence and arrogance they have displayed is shocking and the biggest factor in the mess we are in now is her decision to keep delaying the important discussions for over 2 years.
I don't think this was an option,2 years ago there was not a deal negotiated that parliament could have voted on. A deal has to be negotiated first before it can be voted on.
They couldn't have done more 2 years ago,the only decision then was to leave or stay. Or should they have waited 2 years with article 50,first see if a deal can be reached and then if not simply not invoking article 50?
Its going to get cancelled,britisch politicians never wanted to leave. There is a petition going viral now on a uk government website to cancel the brexit,it has 1m votes already apearently. Its not the first petition of this sort and I doubt it will make a big difference but still.
Tories and labour should cancel brexit together,none of them is going to do it on their own.
Or they should now accept the deal that there is,what else is there left to do besides further delay without any real prospect on a solution.
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That quote was often used by Madeleine Allbright, when talking about women not supporting (voting) for other women. Tusk probably tought it was smart or something. It last backfired during the presidential election in the US. I don't know why people like to use it again and again but it for sure brought the point across: Leaving whiteout a deal is reckless and dangerous.
At the end of the day it isn't worse than what many British politicians have said about the EU in the last 2 years and before the referendum.
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On March 21 2019 22:31 pmh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 05:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On March 21 2019 05:28 Gorsameth wrote:On March 21 2019 05:13 Jockmcplop wrote:
I hope Corbyn and May both resign soon.
They don't know how to do their respective jobs. May's past exploits aside I think she has done what she can with a useless situation. There exists no deal that can get through Parliament, she tried the only deal she could get from the EU twice. Doing anything else is going against the people's will (stupid tho the people are). Its lose-lose-lose no matter what way you turn. Yes but she could have started the process of trying to get agreement from Parliament 2 years ago instead of 2 months ago and everything would have been much less stupid. There was no plan, and no plan to start planning. This lasted until around 90 days before Brexit. You're wrong about May, and wrong about her government. The level of incompetence and arrogance they have displayed is shocking and the biggest factor in the mess we are in now is her decision to keep delaying the important discussions for over 2 years. I don't think this was an option,2 years ago there was not a deal negotiated that parliament could have voted on. A deal has to be negotiated first before it can be voted on. They couldn't have done more 2 years ago,the only decision then was to leave or stay. Or should they have waited 2 years with article 50,first see if a deal can be reached and then if not simply not invoking article 50?
There's nothing stopping her holding exploratory meetings to find out what support the different options have in Parliament, it didn't have to be a vote.
Instead, she didn't even think about any options, just drew some arbitrary 'red lines' and told everyone its that or nothing.
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On March 21 2019 22:16 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 21:29 Velr wrote:On March 21 2019 21:10 Pandemona wrote:On March 21 2019 18:59 Excludos wrote:On March 21 2019 18:21 Pandemona wrote:
The vote was to leave the EU plain and simple. It comes down to how you interpreted it with or without a deal, but it was straight up voted for as a divorce from the EU due to the money we were spending etc etc.
Now whether wrong or right, that is the "will of the people" they are calling for in Parliament, which is right.
The giving people a vote back will do nothing but cause more mayhem, it will again be another close vote and again each side will cause uprorar when they lose/win. Lots of people have "changed sides", i went from voting to stay first time round, to now if i had another choice i would vote to leave, but that works both ways, people who voted to leave will now vote to stay.
Most of the general consensus in the UK right now, is that this has gone on so long and our government is so stupid that we just want it over, regardless of staying in or leaving, just make a freaking decision. Mr Speaker has now delayed that even further with not allowing May to bring her deal back again which in fairness might have actually gotten through, even if it didn't nothing would have been lost. We are now going to delay until June 30th and nothing will change in the mean time.
UK hasn't shot themselves in the foot either, we survived more than long enough before the EU came along and we will survive without it again if that becomes the case. Out of morbid curiosity, what in the world made you look at the ongoing shitshow and somehow change your opinion from "stay" to "leave"? The reason they're having so much trouble to begin with is because there are no good ways to leave where UK remains in a good position after. The deals that are on the table and at all possible puts UK in a weaker position, and doesn't even grant them the red lines that the referendum was crusading on to begin with. No deal is going to be absolutely destructive for the UKs economy. Not to mention the border issues in Ireland. There are no good things to come out of this, and anyone remotely educated on the subject knew this before the referendum. Unfortunately, lies playing on the emotions of xenophobia and sentimentality tends to be stronger than the truth. It is quite clear for me as it is down to the arrogance that the EU had handled these negotiations. Some of the wording of statements from Tusk is disgusting and add in the petty swipes from France and sometimes Germany is awful to read and listen too. People act like the EU is the godsend to the world and makes everything ok which is far from it, they WANT and birthed Article 13 ffs. People also forget why the European Union was made and what it was sold to everyone as....it was sold as a customs trade union AND THAT IS. Nothing else, yet it has evolved into a huge powerhouse run by a select few which is far from fair in the eyes of a lot of people. Now this isn't to say that it doesn't do some good, but just like all governments across the world it also does its fair share of bad. This is why i do not mind if we stay or leave. Iirc this view that the EU was "only a customs/trade union" is a very british view. At least the vote about the EWR in Switzerland back in 1992(?) was lost exactly because the EU, the EWR was seen as prestage to membership, was allways portraied as more than just a trade union/deal. For eastern european countries the EU is also "protection" from Russia... Now i don't know if your media or politicians lied to you for the last ~30 years but judging by the knowledge the average Brexiteer had (and many still have) about the EU it seems like you just didn't care and your politicians/media just used the EU as the boogeyman for everything bad that happened in the UK. Btw: I love how the EU is seen as undemocratic while your head of state is an actual queen and seat by birthright in the house of lords is still a thing. We joined after being veto'd twice by Gualle French priminister in the 60s twice!! Before finally being accepted in by 1972 i think it was. The reason we entered is because then the EU6 were all doing better than us economically and we joined to get a piece of this alongside Norway, Ireland and Denmark i think it was? But then literally in the 80s Maggie Thatcher was going to war with a lot of them over things like payments and the fact it was beginning to start to become a "powerhouse" in which Brussels was trying its hardest to grab at. This caused a stir and was the start of her downfall in the conservative party as at that point they were the strong believers in the EU and the reason we were in it in the first place. But we joined based on the fact that the EU6 were way stronger economically due to the trade deals they had and it took us a while to get in because of the deals we had in place with US and the commonwealth, but once the US signaled their support for the EU we were free to ask to join. But back then that is all it was sold to us as, not sure if there was anything more back then but that is what it was. Pay into a customs union type trade treaty. Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 22:02 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Excludos, I wouldn't put any stock in Pandemona saying that he voted for stay but now supports leave, as he has consistently expressed "leave" (if I am being kind) or UKIP (if I am not being as kind) talking points consistently even before the referendum, be it on issues like trade, or immigration, "taking back control", paying money to the EU or indeed in this case the "will of the people" and has never really said anything in favour of staying.
In fact I would go so far as to say that he just regurgitates Daily Mail and UKIP slogans, if memory serves of the referendum. Take back control, 350 million, the people have spoken, romanian hordes, I'm sure they are all phrases he has written here. I voted to stay? I have not changed my mind on that for a while, i didn't mind losing the vote but never thought we would. I have never stated any of what you suggested either you are clearly confusing me with someone else. So please do not do that, that is not fair unless you back it up because i have not said anything like that at all.
Have you actually ever said anything in favour of stay? Because when you regurgitate Daily Mail headlines and UKIP slogans in the forums consistently since and before the referendum, I'll have a hard time beleiving that you voted remain.
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EPT
