EPTUK Politics Mega-thread - Page 620
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11915 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21340 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23765 Posts
On July 06 2024 01:17 Nebuchad wrote: Got less votes than the result that proved UK hated Corbyn, by the way, something to remember Indeed, I don’t think it’s just less votes but less of a share of the vote if memory serves. Hell of a voting system eh? | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17833 Posts
On July 06 2024 01:24 WombaT wrote: Indeed, I don’t think it’s just less votes but less of a share of the vote if memory serves. Hell of a voting system eh? Well, historically, the UK has been a 2-party system, which is a stable equilibrium for the fptp system. But when one party is such crap, other parties like lib dems, reform and even the greens get a chance. Another consequence is that the post is a lot lower. Where "normallY" the post is at 50%, if there are 4 parties with approximately equal shares, that post drops to about 25%, meaning a supermajority can be won with a far lower share than "normal". I'm not going to defend a fptp system, because I think it's terrible, but this is its intended outcome. It's a feature, not a bug. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9234 Posts
On July 05 2024 15:30 Jockmcplop wrote: This was all the tories doing. I'm not sure how much credit Labour can take, looking at the results and how bizarrely disproportionate they are. Reform UK have basically destroyed the tories. Speaking of Liz Truss, her seat was won by Labour by 600 votes. Reform had 9000 votes in that constituency, and they would normally have been tory votes. I read in a guardian newsletter today that Labour got about the same %-share of votes as in the devastating loss last time (which kinda speaks volumes about the FPTP system but that's another story). It's is kinda fascinating in a way, meaning that they didn't really gain any net votes but rather that the Tories lost significantly. Feels about appropriate for Keir Starmer's performance: just don't lose any votes | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9338 Posts
The timeline: Monday 29th: A knife wielding man attacks a Taylor Swift yoga event for young children. 3 children are killed, more children and adults are injured in the attack. Immediately afterwards: Rumours are spread online about the identity of the attacker. The obvious rumours abound, spread by right wing influencers and Tommy Robinson/Nigel Farage types. Obviously the rumours are that it was an islamist terrorist attack. The police will only say that the attacker was a 17 year old from Cardiff. Clearly his age was causing a problem with the police releasing too many details about his identity, but this only fuels the lies and speculation coming from the right wing. Tuesday 30th: A vigil is held in Southport for the victims of the crime. Almost immediately this is hijacked by a violent right wing mob. They end up surrounding a mosque in Southport demanding justice. The identity of the attacker is still basically unknown, fuelling more speculation and now conspiracy theories added into that too about why the police won't say who the attacker is. The mob turns violent and starts attacking the police. and throwing bottles and attempting to set fire the to the mosque in Southport. It is now known that many of those involved in the violence were not from Southport, but had been bussed in from around the country by the far right organizers of the violence. Friday 2nd August: The last couple of days have given the right a chance to organize. Although the police have now released the identity of the attacker, a man born in Wales to Rwandan parents, who is not muslim and has nothing to do with muslims at all. The right wing don't care. They have now organized demonstrations and protests across the country, many with the sole aim of violently rebelling against 'who knows what'. Over the weekend, many of these demonstrations took place all over the country. They were diverse in nature, depending on the local area. Many were just anti-muslim protests that passed off fairly peacefully. There were a number that turned violent, and a number of associated incidents that have been horrific to see in my country though. The general vibe has been a right wing airing of grievances, which is odd considering we've had a right government for the last 14 years. Some of the incidents include: Protesters trying to burn down a hotel in full view of cameras, which was rumoured to be hosting asylum seekers. The guests and staff were trapped inside the surrounded hotel at the time. These idiots might have just had a few too many drinks or whatever, but they're going to get a shock if the police come calling with an arson with intent or simply attempted murder charge. ![[image loading]](https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article33392493.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/0_Protests-at-Rotherham-hotel-where-asylum-seekers-and-immigrants-are-housed.jpg) This horrific image, which looks like it came from the 1970s: ![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GUKv0d4XkAEVHje?format=jpg&name=medium) Many instances of mobs attacking the police, leading to police injuries. You wouldn't get that in the US, because it would instantly devolve into a gunfight. Man being dragged from his car by a group shouting 'kill them pakis' Beating up a black man for being black Nurses trying to get to work but they are foreign so get bricks thrown at them | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23765 Posts
Really takes the piss how many a folk who stirred this pot plenty are now playing the moral outrage card | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23765 Posts
So much hate. There are few genuine no-go kinda areas in Belfast for regular folks, but hardcore loyalist/Republican haunts tend to be extremely inadvisable if you’re not firmly from those communities. A fucking UDA bar literally invited ardent Irish nationalists who travelled up for the ‘fun’ over. You know racial tensions are getting bad when that happens… It’s a curious thing the modern far right, in that it’s almost as international in scope, alliances and a general recruiting trough as something like Communism attempted to be, but the latter is explicitly cosmopolitan (at least initially, I’m aware there are variants). Their 30s and 40s forebears would be sorely disappointed at the excising of much actual nationalism I imagine. On the potential silver lining side, perhaps we see some genuine societal reflection, and this actually backfires horribly. Racism and sectarianism tend to thrive when they can be couched in other, sometimes legitimate concerns. But, maybe some people do a bit of a rethink on where this kind of invective leads. ‘Hm I’m sharing links on my socials that a bunch of unapologetic racists were also sharing, maybe I gotta rethink this’. It also really cuts through some of the handwringing bullshit about these things being merely frustration at socioeconomic problems or whatever. ‘Oh x wasn’t racism it was just y really’, I mean at least in the case of these demonstrators it’s kinda laughable, although how representative they really are I have no idea | ||
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SEB2610
59 Posts
The general vibe has been a right wing airing of grievances, which is odd considering we've had a right government for the last 14 years. What happened with immigration - legal and illegal - during this nominally right wing government? Not difficult to see why those who voted for Brexit and the Tories would feel betrayed | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9338 Posts
On August 05 2024 22:23 SEB2610 wrote: What happened with immigration - legal and illegal - during this nominally right wing government? Not difficult to see why those who voted for Brexit and the Tories would feel betrayed Immigration went sky high. Sure they might feel betrayed. They have chosen to express that as the new government have been in charge for a month. I'm not sure what they expected to happen in that month. | ||
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SEB2610
59 Posts
On August 05 2024 22:27 Jockmcplop wrote: Immigration went sky high. Sure they might feel betrayed. They have chosen to express that as the new government have been in charge for a month. I'm not sure what they expected to happen in that month. I am not entirely convinced that those people have now put their faith in the Labour Party — I have not seen any data collaborating that. My point was while you call the Tories right wing, in the casual commonly used ‘definition’ of right wing, they were in fact not right wing in any meaningful way given the immigration they allowed. | ||
KwarK
United States41959 Posts
On August 05 2024 23:04 SEB2610 wrote: I am not entirely convinced that those people have now put their faith in the Labour Party — I have not seen any data collaborating that. My point was while you call the Tories right wing, in the casual commonly used ‘definition’ of right wing, they were in fact not right wing in any meaningful way given the immigration they allowed. Right wing <> anti immigration. Immigrants depress wages and increase corporate profits. They prop up national insurance without requiring tax increases. They allow for an elastic labour market. Within the UK it has always been the trade unionists who were most opposed to immigration because, like the guilds of old, they viewed competition as directly contrary to their interests. It’s a bit of a southern strategy situation. New Labour’s pivot created a group of disaffected voters who were theoretically up for grabs and so the Conservatives try to pander to them but the generation of Conservative leadership who came up under Maggie are pro trade pro immigration. It’ll take a while for the newer generation to come through. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23765 Posts
On August 05 2024 23:04 SEB2610 wrote: I am not entirely convinced that those people have now put their faith in the Labour Party — I have not seen any data collaborating that. My point was while you call the Tories right wing, in the casual commonly used ‘definition’ of right wing, they were in fact not right wing in any meaningful way given the immigration they allowed. There are more metrics than immigration in which to assess that. Hell even on that topic their rhetoric has been bloody shocking in some quarters. That said the Tories haven’t been a monolith for 14 years, but there have certainly been some prominent figures really fanning the populist flames alongside your more centre ground people. It’s shifted rightwards in recent times, but perhaps it’ll snap back a bit, the political winds do ebb and flow. Lest we forget Liz Truss’ tenure. I mean sure they’re not insanely far to the right by global extremes, or even domestically, but they’re certainly of the right. I don’t think anyone would be claiming that they’re warmly disposed to Labour, more that one can’t be ‘betrayed’ by a party who never campaigned on huge migration moratoriums. This extreme we’re seeing can be as pissy as they like, they’ve not really got a leg to stand on, and they’re a fringe. They’re rioting and attacking folks, based on proven lies. Personally if I had my way I’d like to see the long arm of the law clamp down on some of those inciting this violence, but as per usual I doubt it and we’ll see the gullible, disaffected and hopeless feel the repercussions rather than those who incited it. And before someone calls me out for stifling free speech or whatever, have the immigration discussion, go for it. Falsely spreading stories that this attacker was Muslim, that Muslims were attacking good British white folks in incidents around the country that didn’t happen. Of course that’s going to elicit violence! I guess the difficulty is proving that these people knew these stories were false | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9338 Posts
On August 05 2024 23:04 SEB2610 wrote: I am not entirely convinced that those people have now put their faith in the Labour Party — I have not seen any data collaborating that. My point was while you call the Tories right wing, in the casual commonly used ‘definition’ of right wing, they were in fact not right wing in any meaningful way given the immigration they allowed. The casual common definition of right wing includes many, many more things than just immigration, all of which contribute to the positioning of the party. The tories are right wing no matter what measurement you use. They were just really, really bad at being right wing. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23765 Posts
On August 05 2024 23:45 Jockmcplop wrote: The casual common definition of right wing includes many, many more things than just immigration, all of which contribute to the positioning of the party. The tories are right wing no matter what measurement you use. They were just really, really bad at being right wing. It’s a have your cake and eat it too scenario. The Tories are incompetent in many domains, I don’t honestly think they couldn’t have cut those numbers if they actually wanted to though. Throw out all the invective you want, but don’t actually do anything about it, because ultimately your rich backers don’t want a wholesale cut in immigration, largely for the reasons Kwark outlined. And aside from the donor class, it would be politically ruinous to clamp down hardcore at a time when NHS waiting times are already spiralling. That’s something very visible to people, if the NHS became even more fucked via an immigration clampdown people would feel the pain pretty quickly, and that would in turn be directed pretty quickly at the lot in charge. To take one example They had EU, or latterly bodies like the ECJ who you can blame for not doing the thing to placate the rabid anti-immigrant lot. I mean it’s bullshit but it does complete that particular trifuckta quite neatly | ||
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SEB2610
59 Posts
On August 05 2024 23:45 Jockmcplop wrote: The casual common definition of right wing includes many, many more things than just immigration, all of which contribute to the positioning of the party. The tories are right wing no matter what measurement you use. They were just really, really bad at being right wing. Of course, other aspects are included other than position/policy on migration. I know we’ve been over this argument before on this site but I must admit I find a statement such as ‘the Tories are right wing no matter what measurement you use’ absurd: if party A is in favor of 99 percent base tax rate and party B is in favor of 98 percent tax rate, calling party B the low tax libetarian party doesnt seem to make much sense to me. Just as most of us wouldnt call Hitler’s National Socialists peace-loving tolerant hippies because they arguably were less ruthless and bloodthirsthy than Ghengis Khan’s Mongols. | ||
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