EPTOn a more seriious note why do You say that? Is labour so bad now? And how about SNP, Sin Fein and other regional parties?
Also - will Ukraine topic play a serious role during this elections? Weapon shipments etc. ?
UK Politics Mega-thread - Page 618
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Silvanel
Poland4691 Posts
On a more seriious note why do You say that? Is labour so bad now? And how about SNP, Sin Fein and other regional parties? Also - will Ukraine topic play a serious role during this elections? Weapon shipments etc. ? | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9338 Posts
On May 24 2024 19:18 Silvanel wrote: Well in that case I will go with more tories, please? On a more seriious note why do You say that? Is labour so bad now? And how about SNP, Sin Fein and other regional parties? Also - will Ukraine topic play a serious role during this elections? Weapon shipments etc. ? Labour is set up to win an election. That unfortunately in the UK means lurching quite heavily to the right. Put it this way, they kicked Corbyn out of the party, but then invited Natalie Elphicke - a hardcore right wing Brexit supporting tory - to join. Its a game of trying to steal support from the right, who are rightly furious with the Tory party's incompetence, instead of appealing to the left. Its the correct strategy for winning an election - but unfortunately it means that the people getting left behind are the same people who've suffered under tory rule for the last 14 years. The poor of this country are fucked. The other parties including the Lib Dems are actually pretty irrelevant. The Reform Party (Farage's party - formerly the Brexit party) will claim victory when those on the right wing of the tory party vote for them instead, but realistically they will have little to zero influence still after the election. Labour will win, and big. Ukraine is pretty far down the list of priorities. Once again its about immigration and the economy. The tories used to win on those issues but Labour are coming in and stealing the issues from them, because the tories have proven themselves incapable of dealing with them. | ||
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Melliflue
United Kingdom1389 Posts
On May 24 2024 19:21 Jockmcplop wrote: Labour is set up to win an election. That unfortunately in the UK means lurching quite heavily to the right. Put it this way, they kicked Corbyn out of the party, but then invited Natalie Elphicke - a hardcore right wing Brexit supporting tory - to join. Its a game of trying to steal support from the right, who are rightly furious with the Tory party's incompetence, instead of appealing to the left. Its the correct strategy for winning an election - but unfortunately it means that the people getting left behind are the same people who've suffered under tory rule for the last 14 years. The poor of this country are fucked. The other parties including the Lib Dems are actually pretty irrelevant. The Reform Party (Farage's party - formerly the Brexit party) will claim victory when those on the right wing of the tory party vote for them instead, but realistically they will have little to zero influence still after the election. Labour will win, and big. Ukraine is pretty far down the list of priorities. Once again its about immigration and the economy. The tories used to win on those issues but Labour are coming in and stealing the issues from them, because the tories have proven themselves incapable of dealing with them. First of all, who do you mean by 'left' and 'right' any more?* I thought the Corbyn left-wing was a middle-class, university-educated crowd. Meanwhile the working class are angry about immigration. Starmer is trying to win back the "red wall" seats that Johnson won in 2019. They are predominantly working class constituencies. Four of Starmer's recent six pledges are aimed at working class voters (NHS, border command, anti-social behaviour, schools). Corbyn lost two elections and in 2019 lost an historic amount of working class support. Johnson's levelling-up rhetoric appealed to poor areas far more than anything Corbyn said. * My impression is the working class is left-wing on economic issues but right-wing on social issues. My post is full of massive generalisations though. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9338 Posts
On May 24 2024 22:45 Melliflue wrote: First of all, who do you mean by 'left' and 'right' any more?* I thought the Corbyn left-wing was a middle-class, university-educated crowd. Meanwhile the working class are angry about immigration. Starmer is trying to win back the "red wall" seats that Johnson won in 2019. They are predominantly working class constituencies. Four of Starmer's recent six pledges are aimed at working class voters (NHS, border command, anti-social behaviour, schools). Corbyn lost two elections and in 2019 lost an historic amount of working class support. Johnson's levelling-up rhetoric appealed to poor areas far more than anything Corbyn said. * My impression is the working class is left-wing on economic issues but right-wing on social issues. My post is full of massive generalisations though. OK so firstly when you talk about 'working class' and I talk about 'the poor' we are talking about completely distinct groups. They are not the same at all. The working class are fairly well off in today's world, those people working unionized jobs on factory lines, on trains and public transport, skilled work like plumbers etc. are making at least the average wage, if not more. The poor are an underclass, a rapidly growing one, who have basically no voice at all, and tend to be of mixed ethnicity and put far less emphasis on immigration as the most important issue of the day. The 'Corbyn left', as you put it, were made up of alot of middle class lefties, plus a healthy smattering of old school socialists. That's why there was a big split about 'woke' politics that the middle class like (it lets them create a victim class out of middle class white people), and actual economic leftism among Corbyn supporters. That's not the point though. The point is, Labour are no longer a centre left party. They are a centre right party now. Their appeal is to right wing tory voters, regardless of whatever outdated class ideas are put into play. | ||
KwarK
United States41959 Posts
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9338 Posts
On May 25 2024 00:04 KwarK wrote: Your problem is with the British voting public, not with the party. The party must react to the voters. If that was how it worked, how come we don't get 2 copies of the exact same manifesto every election? | ||
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KwarK
United States41959 Posts
On May 25 2024 00:53 Jockmcplop wrote: If that was how it worked, how come we don't get 2 copies of the exact same manifesto every election? Because there’s more than one voter. They’re appealing to different core constituencies of voters with some overlap in the middle. But unfortunately the British voting public is more right wing than we’d like to admit. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9338 Posts
On May 25 2024 00:58 KwarK wrote: Because there’s more than one voter. They’re appealing to different core constituencies of voters with some overlap in the middle. But unfortunately the British voting public is more right wing than we’d like to admit. Yes, we are a right wing lot in general. The tories have a great way of keeping us right wing. Moan about immigration for the entire 14 years they're in charge without actually bloody doing anything about it. It works too easily. Their excuses have run out now. I'd be surprised if the polls weren't actually underestimating how badly they'll get wiped out. I maintain that Labour have lurched too far right though. Like I said, the poor in this country are fucked. They don't even have a party giving them a cursory thought every now and again any more. Labour and the tories both openly despise and wish to punish them now. | ||
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SC-Shield
Bulgaria805 Posts
On May 25 2024 01:19 Jockmcplop wrote: Yes, we are a right wing lot in general. The tories have a great way of keeping us right wing. Moan about immigration for the entire 14 years they're in charge without actually bloody doing anything about it. It works too easily. Their excuses have run out now. I'd be surprised if the polls weren't actually underestimating how badly they'll get wiped out. I maintain that Labour have lurched too far right though. Like I said, the poor in this country are fucked. They don't even have a party giving them a cursory thought every now and again any more. Labour and the tories both openly despise and wish to punish them now. Can you define "the poor" please? I lived for a few years in the UK in northwest in the past, apart from the homeless who I think were more noticeable in numbers than in my country, I can't recall seeing someone visibly/noticeably poor. Also, you can't just blame parties, far too many voted for Brexit. Of course, the UK will do worse economically without EU now. | ||
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2590 Posts
On May 25 2024 04:19 SC-Shield wrote: Can you define "the poor" please? I lived for a few years in the UK in northwest in the past, apart from the homeless who I think were more noticeable in numbers than in my country, I can't recall seeing someone visibly/noticeably poor. Also, you can't just blame parties, far too many voted for Brexit. Of course, the UK will do worse economically without EU now. I haven't lived in the Northwest so maybe this is regional differences, but the amount of visibly destitute neighborhoods in Yorkshire and Northern Ireland (parts of the UK I spent most time in) is honestly staggering. There are polls showing that around 20% of UK population experience food insecurity at least to some degree and that a similar percentage regularly cannot afford to use heating in their homes. Among Western & Central European nations, only places like Spain & Italy have similar levels of poverty, but even in those two countries due to cultural differences it might actually be less of an issue -- living with your family is far more commonplace there so if you're broke you can at least stay with your parents instead of going even more broke over rent. Median income in UK these days is also actually closer to that of Spain and Italy and lags significantly behind the Nordics, Benelux, Germany, or France. As for not just blaming parties... I mean, people voted for Brexit because of the parties. They were sold the idea of Brexit as something positive, even necessary; they were told that Brexit would make their country better, that it would improve their living conditions, access to healthcare and social services, all the things that poor people need more than anyone else. I don't think it's fair to blame people for believing their government and wanting a better life after decades of stagnation. It's not as if the population at large demanded Brexit and the parties complied. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9338 Posts
On May 25 2024 04:19 SC-Shield wrote: Can you define "the poor" please? I lived for a few years in the UK in northwest in the past, apart from the homeless who I think were more noticeable in numbers than in my country, I can't recall seeing someone visibly/noticeably poor. Also, you can't just blame parties, far too many voted for Brexit. Of course, the UK will do worse economically without EU now. Surely you must have realized that the poor here live in pockets. I'm living in the NW myself, I was in Manchester for a good 10 years, now I'm in a big town on the outskirts of Manc, and wherever I have lived has been rife with poverty. Greater Manchester indeed has 250,000 children below the poverty line. source Homelessness was a HUGE problem here around 5 years ago until they 'solved' it by getting cops to drive the homeless to surrounding villages and then claiming that Manchester was fixing its homelessness problem. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17833 Posts
On May 25 2024 12:51 Salazarz wrote: I haven't lived in the Northwest so maybe this is regional differences, but the amount of visibly destitute neighborhoods in Yorkshire and Northern Ireland (parts of the UK I spent most time in) is honestly staggering. There are polls showing that around 20% of UK population experience food insecurity at least to some degree and that a similar percentage regularly cannot afford to use heating in their homes. Among Western & Central European nations, only places like Spain & Italy have similar levels of poverty, but even in those two countries due to cultural differences it might actually be less of an issue -- living with your family is far more commonplace there so if you're broke you can at least stay with your parents instead of going even more broke over rent. Median income in UK these days is also actually closer to that of Spain and Italy and lags significantly behind the Nordics, Benelux, Germany, or France. As for not just blaming parties... I mean, people voted for Brexit because of the parties. They were sold the idea of Brexit as something positive, even necessary; they were told that Brexit would make their country better, that it would improve their living conditions, access to healthcare and social services, all the things that poor people need more than anyone else. I don't think it's fair to blame people for believing their government and wanting a better life after decades of stagnation. It's not as if the population at large demanded Brexit and the parties complied. Brexit wasn't something that the parties were behind. In fact, it was a giant clusterfuck across party lines, with leavers all across the spectrum. The party elites were arrogant and thought nobody in their right mind would vote for Brexit. They underestimated the number of Brits who are not in their right mind. They also underestimated how gullible people are to very misleading or outright false advertising. Where's your hundreds of millions for the NHS? Casting Brexit as if it was something imposed by the parties is an exceptionally weird take. The elites were largely against Brexit and it was a total fiasco for Cameron and his cabinet who lost all credibility overnight. I'm still confused why Rish! thought bringing him back out of the doghouse was a clever move. But desperate times call for desperate measures? | ||
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2590 Posts
The elites being largely against Brexit doesn't change the fact that they're the ones who brought it on themselves and the country. It's an insane take to claim that elites are not the reason for the Brexit when so much energy and capital was spent on convincing people just how good Brexit will be. Besides, I'm not convinced that the elites were actually against Brexit. The theory that the push for Brexit was at least partly inspired by ever-tightening financial regulations in the EU and London bigwigs wanting to keep their money laundering racket going seems to check out, at least at first glance. | ||
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KwarK
United States41959 Posts
On May 27 2024 10:41 Salazarz wrote: How was Brexit not something that the parties were behind? There were no crowds of people clamoring to Leave or shouting at their government for a referendum, it was something the politicians brought up to begin with. It's insulting to claim that the Brits who voted Brexit are not in their right mind; yes, your average voter -- in UK, and in any other country -- is not much of a political or economics expert, but this is by design. People rely on mass media and politicians to inform their decisions. Now, those systems are hosing people with bullshit rather than actually informing them of reality, and that is not the fault of the average people. The problem isn't that people are 'too stupid', people being 'too stupid' is literally the product and the desired outcome of our political & cultural establishment. The elites being largely against Brexit doesn't change the fact that they're the ones who brought it on themselves and the country. It's an insane take to claim that elites are not the reason for the Brexit when so much energy and capital was spent on convincing people just how good Brexit will be. Besides, I'm not convinced that the elites were actually against Brexit. The theory that the push for Brexit was at least partly inspired by ever-tightening financial regulations in the EU and London bigwigs wanting to keep their money laundering racket going seems to check out, at least at first glance. Yeah, that’s not true. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23765 Posts
On May 25 2024 12:51 Salazarz wrote: I haven't lived in the Northwest so maybe this is regional differences, but the amount of visibly destitute neighborhoods in Yorkshire and Northern Ireland (parts of the UK I spent most time in) is honestly staggering. There are polls showing that around 20% of UK population experience food insecurity at least to some degree and that a similar percentage regularly cannot afford to use heating in their homes. Among Western & Central European nations, only places like Spain & Italy have similar levels of poverty, but even in those two countries due to cultural differences it might actually be less of an issue -- living with your family is far more commonplace there so if you're broke you can at least stay with your parents instead of going even more broke over rent. Median income in UK these days is also actually closer to that of Spain and Italy and lags significantly behind the Nordics, Benelux, Germany, or France. As for not just blaming parties... I mean, people voted for Brexit because of the parties. They were sold the idea of Brexit as something positive, even necessary; they were told that Brexit would make their country better, that it would improve their living conditions, access to healthcare and social services, all the things that poor people need more than anyone else. I don't think it's fair to blame people for believing their government and wanting a better life after decades of stagnation. It's not as if the population at large demanded Brexit and the parties complied. Wasn’t aware you’d spent time in my neck of the woods! And aye at least to the eye test/my knowledge the place is, if not getting poorer across the board, certainly trending to greater inequality across a whole slew of metrics. Mental health provision deficiencies alone is having a big knock-on effect in underemployment, and especially homelessness The one plus point to be said for the place is if you’re vaguely middle class you’re not getting too fucked. Wages aren’t amazing by UK/European standards, but housing isn’t too extortionate at the same time. Something that is particularly brutal down in Dublin or across the water in London. Basically everyone who emigrated from here that I know did it for lifestyle reasons or a new experience, whereas most my partner knows did so as they felt ever getting on the housing ladder/not throwing ever-increasing amounts of their wages in rent is a hopeless prospect. Hell silver lining she was only up in Belfast for that reason so I’d likely still be single otherwise In other news the Tories really are playing to the gallery, national service for the youth? | ||
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2590 Posts
On May 27 2024 15:24 WombaT wrote: Wasn’t aware you’d spent time in my neck of the woods! And aye at least to the eye test/my knowledge the place is, if not getting poorer across the board, certainly trending to greater inequality across a whole slew of metrics. Mental health provision deficiencies alone is having a big knock-on effect in underemployment, and especially homelessness The one plus point to be said for the place is if you’re vaguely middle class you’re not getting too fucked. Wages aren’t amazing by UK/European standards, but housing isn’t too extortionate at the same time. Something that is particularly brutal down in Dublin or across the water in London. Basically everyone who emigrated from here that I know did it for lifestyle reasons or a new experience, whereas most my partner knows did so as they felt ever getting on the housing ladder/not throwing ever-increasing amounts of their wages in rent is a hopeless prospect. Hell silver lining she was only up in Belfast for that reason so I’d likely still be single otherwise In other news the Tories really are playing to the gallery, national service for the youth? I spent my 20s bouncing around Europe, probably easier to list places I haven't lived in than the places I have. :D Still have family in Northern Ireland so I visit every now and then. Belfast is awesome as long as you aren't super career minded for all sorts of reasons and decent housing being affordable for sure is one of them; but the salary gap for higher level jobs is pretty crazy these days. A buddy of mine was a university professor at Queens for ages, he finally made the move to a smaller college in Milton Keynes during COVID and his salary basically doubled; jobs for like, software developers or finance and whatnot are even worse. Of course, most of that salary difference now goes into mortgage lol. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11915 Posts
On May 25 2024 00:04 KwarK wrote: Your problem is with the British voting public, not with the party. The party must react to the voters. I would bet a lot on the opposite being true. The voting public is shaped in a major way by what options are available to it, because that's much easier to envision than what is not directly available. I remember some studies from years back that showed that the opinions of the public change depending on the system they live under. If it is normal to do a bunch of rightwing shit, then the public will feel that it is normal to do a bunch of rightwing shit. If it is normal to do a bunch of leftwing shit, then the public will feel that it is normal to do a bunch of leftwing shit. Let's think about a concrete example of how something like this might develop. Let's say that you want some leftwing shit about the poor being treated better, and that seems unavailable today in a lot of countries that have a neoliberal electoral system. But the poor people that you are most concerned about, that are in your direct circle, are mainly white and natives. You then deduce that if the immigrants are treated worse because you vote for far right parties, then as a direct result you and the people you care about most will be in a higher class, and as such will be treated better. And this is an option that is directly available to you. But if the political landscape was different and the option available to you was "the poor being treated better" as opposed to "sink the immigrants even more", then you may have chosen the first option. If we accept this as true, then I was able to sway a country from far right to far left just by offering it a different set of options. The primary logic of this far right vote is incorrect, of course, because treating immigrants worse will not result in others being treated better. But it's not difficult for me to understand how someone falls for that. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23765 Posts
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9338 Posts
Farage takes over Reform UK and stands in Clacton. He got milkshook today by some woman who ironically said "He's not even from around here". The first debate tonight between possibly the two most boring people on Earth. I'll be watching as I've been struggling to sleep recently. The tories are getting dangerously close to not even being the opposition, according to poll expert John Curtice. He reckons even after predicted 140 seat total, Reform UK will take another 60 seats off them. That would be their worst ever total (including 1722). EDIT Here's the debate. Its actually awful. Terrible format (45 seconds to answer questions??) and an awful moderator. The participants were even worse. Both of them sucked ass. | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom792 Posts
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