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On March 21 2019 05:10 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 05:09 Gorsameth wrote: There is still a decent chance for withdraw but I don't know if it can get through Parliament. barely any conservatives will support revoking and Labour front bench is against so it won't happen. Theres no way that they'd chose a no deal brexit over revoking brexit right?
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On March 21 2019 05:43 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 05:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On March 21 2019 05:28 Gorsameth wrote:On March 21 2019 05:13 Jockmcplop wrote: I hope Corbyn and May both resign soon. They don't know how to do their respective jobs. May's past exploits aside I think she has done what she can with a useless situation. There exists no deal that can get through Parliament, she tried the only deal she could get from the EU twice. Doing anything else is going against the people's will (stupid tho the people are). Its lose-lose-lose no matter what way you turn. Yes but she could have started the process of trying to get agreement from Parliament 2 years ago instead of 2 months ago and everything would have been much less stupid. There was no plan, and no plan to start planning. This lasted until around 90 days before Brexit. You're wrong about May, and wrong about her government. The level of incompetence and arrogance they have displayed is shocking and the biggest factor in the mess we are in now is her decision to keep delaying the important discussions for over 2 years. You are talking like she had all the time in the world to put her deal together, and plenty of opportunities to consult her obviously dysfunctional parlament along the way. Many doubted she would get any kind of sensible deal on the table at all with the time she had in her hands. The biggest factor is that Brexit is an awful idea, but the Brits still voted for it, probably blinded by a distant past as a superpower.
Yes Brexit was a bad idea, but it was achievable, and May's deal was achievable, but she left it far too late. She is the PM, the number of opportunities to consult Parliament (no matter how dysfunctional it is) is entirely her choice.
I'm not saying she wasn't in a bad position to begin with,she was, but she has made a huge number of incredible mistakes. Hiring David Davis as Brexit minister was the first one, the guy was showing up to negotiations having done zero preparation. No wonder it took so long to get a deal together.
Everyone in parliament is saying the same thing, whether they are for or against the deal that May has put on the table, and that is that her strategy has been catastrophic, disorganized and incompetent.
Just because a guy is stuck down a well it doesn't mean you should praise him for sawing his leg off in the hope that he will magically reappear in his house when he wakes up.
On March 21 2019 05:41 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 05:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On March 21 2019 05:28 Gorsameth wrote:On March 21 2019 05:13 Jockmcplop wrote: I hope Corbyn and May both resign soon. They don't know how to do their respective jobs. May's past exploits aside I think she has done what she can with a useless situation. There exists no deal that can get through Parliament, she tried the only deal she could get from the EU twice. Doing anything else is going against the people's will (stupid tho the people are). Its lose-lose-lose no matter what way you turn. Yes but she could have started the process of trying to get agreement from Parliament 2 years ago instead of 2 months ago and everything would have been much less stupid. There was no plan, and no plan to start planning. This lasted until around 90 days before Brexit. You're wrong about May, and wrong about her government. The level of incompetence and arrogance they have displayed is shocking and the biggest factor in the mess we are in now is her decision to keep delaying the important discussions for over 2 years. What has Parliament agreed on? Only that it doesn't agree on anything. If May went to Parliament 2 years ago to get there opinion the process would be in the exact same place it is now because there is no majority for any deal in Parliament that can also pass in the EU, which is not to say she shouldn't have done that and that it was a mistake to not consult them after it became clear any deal needed to be approved by Parliament. I'm not saying she has done amazing or even good. But I'm not going to blame the one person willing to actually do something at all while everyone stands on the sidelines shouting how bad she is and how much better they would do without actually doing anything. The only plan the opposition came forward with , that I know of, is Corbyn's "Lets not really have a Brexit at all" and that came out last month?
The opposition is nearly as guilty as May in this, I agree. What I'm saying is that it takes a long time to build consensus on an issue like Brexit. Leaving it until the last minute and then being surprised that you don't have enough time to build that consensus is incredibly bad strategy.
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On March 21 2019 05:50 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 05:10 Zaros wrote:On March 21 2019 05:09 Gorsameth wrote: There is still a decent chance for withdraw but I don't know if it can get through Parliament. barely any conservatives will support revoking and Labour front bench is against so it won't happen. Theres no way that they'd chose a no deal brexit over revoking brexit right?
The whole point of No deal is they don't have to choose it, they need to agree something else to stop it. Conservatives and Labour will not dare to revoke article 50 and there isn't time for a referendum so they can pass the buck. They would rather let no deal happen and blame May and Corbyn.
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On March 21 2019 05:59 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 05:50 Sermokala wrote:On March 21 2019 05:10 Zaros wrote:On March 21 2019 05:09 Gorsameth wrote: There is still a decent chance for withdraw but I don't know if it can get through Parliament. barely any conservatives will support revoking and Labour front bench is against so it won't happen. Theres no way that they'd chose a no deal brexit over revoking brexit right? The whole point of No deal is they don't have to choose it, they need to agree something else to stop it. Conservatives and Labour will not dare to revoke article 50 and there isn't time for a referendum so they can pass the buck. They would rather let no deal happen and blame May and Corbyn.
But then they will go down in history as the parlament who splintered and crushed the "United" Kingdom.
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On March 21 2019 05:53 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 05:43 Slydie wrote:On March 21 2019 05:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On March 21 2019 05:28 Gorsameth wrote:On March 21 2019 05:13 Jockmcplop wrote: I hope Corbyn and May both resign soon. They don't know how to do their respective jobs. May's past exploits aside I think she has done what she can with a useless situation. There exists no deal that can get through Parliament, she tried the only deal she could get from the EU twice. Doing anything else is going against the people's will (stupid tho the people are). Its lose-lose-lose no matter what way you turn. Yes but she could have started the process of trying to get agreement from Parliament 2 years ago instead of 2 months ago and everything would have been much less stupid. There was no plan, and no plan to start planning. This lasted until around 90 days before Brexit. You're wrong about May, and wrong about her government. The level of incompetence and arrogance they have displayed is shocking and the biggest factor in the mess we are in now is her decision to keep delaying the important discussions for over 2 years. You are talking like she had all the time in the world to put her deal together, and plenty of opportunities to consult her obviously dysfunctional parlament along the way. Many doubted she would get any kind of sensible deal on the table at all with the time she had in her hands. The biggest factor is that Brexit is an awful idea, but the Brits still voted for it, probably blinded by a distant past as a superpower. Yes Brexit was a bad idea, but it was achievable, and May's deal was achievable, but she left it far too late. She is the PM, the number of opportunities to consult Parliament (no matter how dysfunctional it is) is entirely her choice. I'm not saying she wasn't in a bad position to begin with,she was, but she has made a huge number of incredible mistakes. Hiring David Davis as Brexit minister was the first one, the guy was showing up to negotiations having done zero preparation. No wonder it took so long to get a deal together. Everyone in parliament is saying the same thing, whether they are for or against the deal that May has put on the table, and that is that her strategy has been catastrophic, disorganized and incompetent. Just because a guy is stuck down a well it doesn't mean you should praise him for sawing his leg off in the hope that he will magically reappear in his house when he wakes up. Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 05:41 Gorsameth wrote:On March 21 2019 05:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On March 21 2019 05:28 Gorsameth wrote:On March 21 2019 05:13 Jockmcplop wrote: I hope Corbyn and May both resign soon. They don't know how to do their respective jobs. May's past exploits aside I think she has done what she can with a useless situation. There exists no deal that can get through Parliament, she tried the only deal she could get from the EU twice. Doing anything else is going against the people's will (stupid tho the people are). Its lose-lose-lose no matter what way you turn. Yes but she could have started the process of trying to get agreement from Parliament 2 years ago instead of 2 months ago and everything would have been much less stupid. There was no plan, and no plan to start planning. This lasted until around 90 days before Brexit. You're wrong about May, and wrong about her government. The level of incompetence and arrogance they have displayed is shocking and the biggest factor in the mess we are in now is her decision to keep delaying the important discussions for over 2 years. What has Parliament agreed on? Only that it doesn't agree on anything. If May went to Parliament 2 years ago to get there opinion the process would be in the exact same place it is now because there is no majority for any deal in Parliament that can also pass in the EU, which is not to say she shouldn't have done that and that it was a mistake to not consult them after it became clear any deal needed to be approved by Parliament. I'm not saying she has done amazing or even good. But I'm not going to blame the one person willing to actually do something at all while everyone stands on the sidelines shouting how bad she is and how much better they would do without actually doing anything. The only plan the opposition came forward with , that I know of, is Corbyn's "Lets not really have a Brexit at all" and that came out last month? The opposition is nearly as guilty as May in this, I agree. What I'm saying is that it takes a long time to build consensus on an issue like Brexit. Leaving it until the last minute and then being surprised that you don't have enough time to build that consensus is incredibly bad strategy.
Considering she was given a problem that is impossible to solve, I don't think you can blame her timing.
Given the premises, what is really so bad with that deal? Some want no Brexit at all, some want no deal at all, some want a deal with tighter bonds to the EU... consensus is impossible. Considering the EU was the strong part in the negotiations, something the Brexiters happily ignored, I have a hard time seeing what she should have done differently.
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On March 21 2019 05:43 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 05:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On March 21 2019 05:28 Gorsameth wrote:On March 21 2019 05:13 Jockmcplop wrote: I hope Corbyn and May both resign soon. They don't know how to do their respective jobs. May's past exploits aside I think she has done what she can with a useless situation. There exists no deal that can get through Parliament, she tried the only deal she could get from the EU twice. Doing anything else is going against the people's will (stupid tho the people are). Its lose-lose-lose no matter what way you turn. Yes but she could have started the process of trying to get agreement from Parliament 2 years ago instead of 2 months ago and everything would have been much less stupid. There was no plan, and no plan to start planning. This lasted until around 90 days before Brexit. You're wrong about May, and wrong about her government. The level of incompetence and arrogance they have displayed is shocking and the biggest factor in the mess we are in now is her decision to keep delaying the important discussions for over 2 years. You are talking like she had all the time in the world to put her deal together, and plenty of opportunities to consult her obviously dysfunctional parlament along the way. Many doubted she would get any kind of sensible deal on the table at all with the time she had in her hands. The biggest factor is that Brexit is an awful idea, but the Brits still voted for it, probably blinded by a distant past as a superpower. She had time to waste X months on a GE but wasn't able to invite the opposition to a single meeting? Right. And parliament works as it's supposed to. A PM who only commands a minority in the parliament isn't meant to be able to jam through decissions with no regards to the will of other MPs. She's supposed to at least try to build a consensus and she has not once even hinted at doing so.
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this mess is no single person's sole fault though. That'd be massively unfair and delusional
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On March 21 2019 07:01 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 05:43 Slydie wrote:On March 21 2019 05:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On March 21 2019 05:28 Gorsameth wrote:On March 21 2019 05:13 Jockmcplop wrote: I hope Corbyn and May both resign soon. They don't know how to do their respective jobs. May's past exploits aside I think she has done what she can with a useless situation. There exists no deal that can get through Parliament, she tried the only deal she could get from the EU twice. Doing anything else is going against the people's will (stupid tho the people are). Its lose-lose-lose no matter what way you turn. Yes but she could have started the process of trying to get agreement from Parliament 2 years ago instead of 2 months ago and everything would have been much less stupid. There was no plan, and no plan to start planning. This lasted until around 90 days before Brexit. You're wrong about May, and wrong about her government. The level of incompetence and arrogance they have displayed is shocking and the biggest factor in the mess we are in now is her decision to keep delaying the important discussions for over 2 years. You are talking like she had all the time in the world to put her deal together, and plenty of opportunities to consult her obviously dysfunctional parlament along the way. Many doubted she would get any kind of sensible deal on the table at all with the time she had in her hands. The biggest factor is that Brexit is an awful idea, but the Brits still voted for it, probably blinded by a distant past as a superpower. She had time to waste X months on a GE but wasn't able to invite the opposition to a single meeting? Right. And parliament works as it's supposed to. A PM who only commands a minority in the parliament isn't meant to be able to jam through decissions with no regards to the will of other MPs. She's supposed to at least try to build a consensus and she has not once even hinted at doing so.
To be fair to May our system isn't built for Compromise its built so one dominant side can ram through its agenda and freezes up whenever there isn't a dominant party.
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On March 21 2019 06:52 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 05:59 Zaros wrote:On March 21 2019 05:50 Sermokala wrote:On March 21 2019 05:10 Zaros wrote:On March 21 2019 05:09 Gorsameth wrote: There is still a decent chance for withdraw but I don't know if it can get through Parliament. barely any conservatives will support revoking and Labour front bench is against so it won't happen. Theres no way that they'd chose a no deal brexit over revoking brexit right? The whole point of No deal is they don't have to choose it, they need to agree something else to stop it. Conservatives and Labour will not dare to revoke article 50 and there isn't time for a referendum so they can pass the buck. They would rather let no deal happen and blame May and Corbyn. But then they will go down in history as the parlament who splintered and crushed the "United" Kingdom. I recently heard a commentator refer Brexit as the end result of “Magical Political Thinking”. The “No Deal is preferable because they can blame May and Corbyn” has to be its zenith.
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On March 21 2019 07:10 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 07:01 Longshank wrote:On March 21 2019 05:43 Slydie wrote:On March 21 2019 05:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On March 21 2019 05:28 Gorsameth wrote:On March 21 2019 05:13 Jockmcplop wrote: I hope Corbyn and May both resign soon. They don't know how to do their respective jobs. May's past exploits aside I think she has done what she can with a useless situation. There exists no deal that can get through Parliament, she tried the only deal she could get from the EU twice. Doing anything else is going against the people's will (stupid tho the people are). Its lose-lose-lose no matter what way you turn. Yes but she could have started the process of trying to get agreement from Parliament 2 years ago instead of 2 months ago and everything would have been much less stupid. There was no plan, and no plan to start planning. This lasted until around 90 days before Brexit. You're wrong about May, and wrong about her government. The level of incompetence and arrogance they have displayed is shocking and the biggest factor in the mess we are in now is her decision to keep delaying the important discussions for over 2 years. You are talking like she had all the time in the world to put her deal together, and plenty of opportunities to consult her obviously dysfunctional parlament along the way. Many doubted she would get any kind of sensible deal on the table at all with the time she had in her hands. The biggest factor is that Brexit is an awful idea, but the Brits still voted for it, probably blinded by a distant past as a superpower. She had time to waste X months on a GE but wasn't able to invite the opposition to a single meeting? Right. And parliament works as it's supposed to. A PM who only commands a minority in the parliament isn't meant to be able to jam through decissions with no regards to the will of other MPs. She's supposed to at least try to build a consensus and she has not once even hinted at doing so. To be fair to May our system isn't built for Compromise its built so one dominant side can ram through its agenda and freezes up whenever there isn't a dominant party. 'ram' was the word I was looking for, thank you
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People saying May is stuck in an impossible situation might be forgetting that it's HER red lines that prevent any norway type deal or whatever being discussed. Yes that has its problems, but she never even wanted to consider it. Also the fact that she invoked article 50 before figuring out what to do.
A PM who was truly in search of a solution would have held votes in parliament 2 years ago for ALL possible brexit options, and tried to look for crossparty solutions, instead of opting for a hard brexit by herself and only starting to figure out what majority in parliament there could be literal months before the deadline.
Not to mention the whole snap election debacle.
You can give her kudos for actually taking the role of PM upon her in this whole disaster when no one wanted to touch it with a ten-foot pole, but make no mistake, her priority was always the party, not the country.
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A PM who was truly in search of a solution would have held votes in parliament 2 years ago for ALL possible brexit options, and tried to look for crossparty solutions, instead of opting for a hard brexit by herself and only starting to figure out what majority in parliament there could be literal months before the deadline.
This.
Not to mention, could one of the resident Brexiters briefly link some data in regards to what was voted on two and a half years ago? I constantly hear "will of the people" etc in regards to no-deal brexit. Problem being here that pretty much anything i can find rules no-deal brexit out, and even polls showing that a majority was for MPs voting against no-deal.
So, since we're so hellbent on democracy, will on the people and delivering on what people voted for, it should be easy to point to the polls that make clear that no-deal was the suggested option two and a half years ago. Because if these are not conclusive, a no deal is as much against "the will of the people" and "democracy" as a no brexit would be.
Of course it doesn't matter to certain people, they usually miss these kinda key problems while wanking onto the union jack, but i indeed am a bit amused by the fact that adamant brexiters claim "righteous fury", while literally trying to force something that the majority of the voters doesn't want.
edit: in that regard btw, Mays deal delivers. And only Mays deal. Neither "No Deal" nor "No Brexit" is delivering on the peoples vote. Cheering for "no deal" removes your ability to complain about a potential "no brexit", just to point that out.
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United Kingdom20276 Posts
"Will of the people" stuff is BS, just a newspaper headline / soundbite. "The people" don't want what the government says that they want and haven't been given a voice either way.
The people saying that stuff the most also happen to be the ones that have been pushing back the hardest against any public involvement in the process for the last two and a half years.
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I just wanted to say I it's kind of tragically funny how you guys shot yourself in the foot over and over. We will miss you
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51449 Posts
The vote was to leave the EU plain and simple. It comes down to how you interpreted it with or without a deal, but it was straight up voted for as a divorce from the EU due to the money we were spending etc etc.
Now whether wrong or right, that is the "will of the people" they are calling for in Parliament, which is right.
The giving people a vote back will do nothing but cause more mayhem, it will again be another close vote and again each side will cause uprorar when they lose/win. Lots of people have "changed sides", i went from voting to stay first time round, to now if i had another choice i would vote to leave, but that works both ways, people who voted to leave will now vote to stay.
Most of the general consensus in the UK right now, is that this has gone on so long and our government is so stupid that we just want it over, regardless of staying in or leaving, just make a freaking decision. Mr Speaker has now delayed that even further with not allowing May to bring her deal back again which in fairness might have actually gotten through, even if it didn't nothing would have been lost. We are now going to delay until June 30th and nothing will change in the mean time.
UK hasn't shot themselves in the foot either, we survived more than long enough before the EU came along and we will survive without it again if that becomes the case.
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On March 21 2019 18:21 Pandemona wrote: The vote was to leave the EU plain and simple. It comes down to how you interpreted it with or without a deal, but it was straight up voted for as a divorce from the EU due to the money we were spending etc etc.
Now whether wrong or right, that is the "will of the people" they are calling for in Parliament, which is right.
The giving people a vote back will do nothing but cause more mayhem, it will again be another close vote and again each side will cause uprorar when they lose/win. Lots of people have "changed sides", i went from voting to stay first time round, to now if i had another choice i would vote to leave, but that works both ways, people who voted to leave will now vote to stay.
Most of the general consensus in the UK right now, is that this has gone on so long and our government is so stupid that we just want it over, regardless of staying in or leaving, just make a freaking decision. Mr Speaker has now delayed that even further with not allowing May to bring her deal back again which in fairness might have actually gotten through, even if it didn't nothing would have been lost. We are now going to delay until June 30th and nothing will change in the mean time.
UK hasn't shot themselves in the foot either, we survived more than long enough before the EU came along and we will survive without it again if that becomes the case.
This is wrong imo because it assumes that the world is the same now as it was before the EU. Its the biggest mistake that Brexiters make. We can't even make a single decision in Parliament because we are so weak, divided and paralysed as a country, getting nostalgic for the good ol British Empire days is just silly. Yeah we'll probably surive, but that doesn't mean we're not going to wreck our country's economic prospects for generations because a few people in politics failed to understand the basics of the EU and then half the population believed their bullshit and lies. They should just revoke a50 and be done with it before the EU kicks us out without a deal.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51449 Posts
No one knows if the economic prospects are going to die or flourish, no one knows what half the EU countries will do that trade with us, no one knows anything. I doubt we leave without a deal anyway but even if we did we have opened ourselves up with a trade deal with USA which Trump is desperate to give us asap as discussed yesterday. We have India and China lined up also, there is many many things but it would be so much easier to just leave on good terms with the trade movement.
But who knows, our government is to busy fighting for themselves rather than seeing what good is going on. I mean if you watch any Parliament debate right now and its just bunch of school children shouting and hissing at eachother, its actually disgraceful. No wonder nothing gets done.
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On March 21 2019 18:21 Pandemona wrote: The vote was to leave the EU plain and simple. It comes down to how you interpreted it with or without a deal, but it was straight up voted for as a divorce from the EU due to the money we were spending etc etc.
Now whether wrong or right, that is the "will of the people" they are calling for in Parliament, which is right.
The giving people a vote back will do nothing but cause more mayhem, it will again be another close vote and again each side will cause uprorar when they lose/win. Lots of people have "changed sides", i went from voting to stay first time round, to now if i had another choice i would vote to leave, but that works both ways, people who voted to leave will now vote to stay.
Most of the general consensus in the UK right now, is that this has gone on so long and our government is so stupid that we just want it over, regardless of staying in or leaving, just make a freaking decision. Mr Speaker has now delayed that even further with not allowing May to bring her deal back again which in fairness might have actually gotten through, even if it didn't nothing would have been lost. We are now going to delay until June 30th and nothing will change in the mean time.
UK hasn't shot themselves in the foot either, we survived more than long enough before the EU came along and we will survive without it again if that becomes the case.
Out of morbid curiosity, what in the world made you look at the ongoing shitshow and somehow change your opinion from "stay" to "leave"? The reason they're having so much trouble to begin with is because there are no good ways to leave where UK remains in a good position after.
The deals that are on the table and at all possible puts UK in a weaker position, and doesn't even grant them the red lines that the referendum was crusading on to begin with. No deal is going to be absolutely destructive for the UKs economy. Not to mention the border issues in Ireland. There are no good things to come out of this, and anyone remotely educated on the subject knew this before the referendum. Unfortunately, lies playing on the emotions of xenophobia and sentimentality tends to be stronger than the truth.
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Political decisions of this magnitude shouldn’t be goverened by such a fatalistic attitude. Folks growing up in the UK don’t want a coin flip between “”fine” and “Great Depression” they have no control over.
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