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On June 26 2013 05:05 Cirqueenflex wrote:
oh come on, don't be that ignorant. He did the wrong thing for the right reasons. That does not absolve him from the law, which is in place to protect the country. He has to be punished, even if it is just for the sake of other information that does need to stay hidden (military emergency/strategic plans, weak points in important infrastructure, undercover agents that get killed for being revealed etc).
I agree with your first sentence, not so much after that. Snowden released the data only after very meticulously making sure he wasn't releasing anything that could put anyone in danger (the main thing that sets him apart from Manning). The only reason the state "needs" to come down hard on him is to discourage future whistleblowers, which I don't consider to be a good thing. Whistleblowers need to be protected.
On June 26 2013 05:05 Cirqueenflex wrote:
In my opinion the right thing would probably have been to go to the authorities (any boss of his or a higher-up politician who does have part in power over deciding this kind of stuff), and only go to the public if all those efforts bear no fruit as a last resort. It would have done way less collateral (political) damage. Would it be unfair if this would never have been made public? Maybe. But it is just as unfair to others the way this was made public, and way more people had to suffer for this.
He deserves to be punished.
Don't be so naieve, do you think he's the first NSA operative to bring this stuff up? If it was resolvable internally by going "higher-up" we wouldn't be in this situation, now would we? In an ideal world you would be correct, but this isn't that ideal world that you're thinking of.
One of the senators(or congressman, I don't remember) that is on the intelligence committee tried to make this information public legally already as well. There was a hearing with the head of the NSA where he asked pointed questions (of which he knew the answers, but was not legally allowed to disclose), to try to get the information out. The head of the NSA just flat out lied.
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more appropriate question is do we have to sacrifice our rights to combat terrorism, even a little?
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On June 26 2013 05:23 darthfoley wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 05:15 XCetron wrote:On June 26 2013 05:10 Fruscainte wrote:
I mean of course he's "guilty" in the legalistic sense, but he's honestly what this country needed.
Not all crime is inherently evil, I think is fair to say. What Snowden did was illegal, but probably the most morally correct thing anyone has done for this country in the past 50 years. Really? Most morally correct anyone has done, for this country (presumably United States of America),in the past 50 years (1963-2013)? Lol, I would perhaps consider leaking Watergate as more important. . . .. . .....
Watergate was spying on political opposition. This is spying on the whole world. No matter the laws that were created in the aftermath of 9/11 to make this legal on paper, it is one of the most undemocratic and abusive measures committed by a western state in recent years. You guys should give him a medal and dissolve NSA instead of playing "catch me if you can" with him.
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On June 26 2013 05:25 biology]major wrote:
more appropriate question is do we have to sacrifice our rights to combat terrorism, even a little?
No. 9/11 was essentially made impossible to repeat simply by locking the cabin doors in airplanes. Last I checked no one had a right to enter a plane cabin.
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On June 26 2013 05:23 darthfoley wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 05:15 XCetron wrote:On June 26 2013 05:10 Fruscainte wrote:
I mean of course he's "guilty" in the legalistic sense, but he's honestly what this country needed.
Not all crime is inherently evil, I think is fair to say. What Snowden did was illegal, but probably the most morally correct thing anyone has done for this country in the past 50 years. Really? Most morally correct anyone has done, for this country (presumably United States of America),in the past 50 years (1963-2013)? Lol, I would perhaps consider leaking Watergate as more important. . . .. . .....
Or perhaps civil rights leaders of the 1960s (like MLK).
On June 26 2013 05:15 eNbee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 03:16 TriO wrote:Yes, hes guilty of espionage and therefore a traitor. When we work for any type federal jobs from organization, institution, and state we are required to sign and obey this loyalty oath. This oath requires us to support and defend the constitution against all enemies of the United States of America. By giving out information he broke this oath and therefore declared enemy of the state by doing so. He knew by releasing this information he would be an enemy/traitor to the U.S. http://twothirds.us/the-oaths-of-office/ As you said he swore an oath to protect the constitution. I believe, and he believes, he was doing exactly that. Those NSA practices are a massive breach of the 4th amendment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_ConstitutionSnowden knew what was going to happen when he released all of this, he gave up a very well paying job, basically his entire life when he released all of this. He's a hero and a patriot, I know these terms get overused a lot, but this time it's literally the case. All that said though, more on topic, he'll probably be found guilty of espionage under that archaic piece of legislation called the espionage act, the same piece of legislation they used in WW2 to create those internment camps for Japanese citizens.
Gotta love Constitution peddlers. What the NSA is doing is legal. What may be illegal is the law which Congress passed to make the NSA's actions legal.
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On June 26 2013 05:28 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 05:23 darthfoley wrote:On June 26 2013 05:15 XCetron wrote:On June 26 2013 05:10 Fruscainte wrote:
I mean of course he's "guilty" in the legalistic sense, but he's honestly what this country needed.
Not all crime is inherently evil, I think is fair to say. What Snowden did was illegal, but probably the most morally correct thing anyone has done for this country in the past 50 years. Really? Most morally correct anyone has done, for this country (presumably United States of America),in the past 50 years (1963-2013)? Lol, I would perhaps consider leaking Watergate as more important. . . .. . ..... Or perhaps civil rights leaders of the 1960s (like MLK). Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 05:15 eNbee wrote:On June 26 2013 03:16 TriO wrote:Yes, hes guilty of espionage and therefore a traitor. When we work for any type federal jobs from organization, institution, and state we are required to sign and obey this loyalty oath. This oath requires us to support and defend the constitution against all enemies of the United States of America. By giving out information he broke this oath and therefore declared enemy of the state by doing so. He knew by releasing this information he would be an enemy/traitor to the U.S. http://twothirds.us/the-oaths-of-office/ As you said he swore an oath to protect the constitution. I believe, and he believes, he was doing exactly that. Those NSA practices are a massive breach of the 4th amendment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_ConstitutionSnowden knew what was going to happen when he released all of this, he gave up a very well paying job, basically his entire life when he released all of this. He's a hero and a patriot, I know these terms get overused a lot, but this time it's literally the case. All that said though, more on topic, he'll probably be found guilty of espionage under that archaic piece of legislation called the espionage act, the same piece of legislation they used in WW2 to create those internment camps for Japanese citizens. Gotta love Constitution peddlers. What the NSA is doing is legal. What may be illegal is the law which Congress passed to make the NSA's actions legal.
I'm not peddling anything, I'm using one of the arguments the poster I was replying to made, against him.
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On June 26 2013 03:00 MidKnight wrote:
The fact that there are people supporting the government when it's essentially using propaganda and trying to play the good ol' "WE ARE THE BIG SCARY GOVERNMENT DON'T FUCK WITH US!" card, is pretty sad..
Like Snowden said, he *could* have leaked classified information to US "enemies" (a loose term), but the only thing he did was expose a very clear abuse of power from government's side. The officials have clearly lied to supreme court multiple times about the program.
Yes, the employees did write some kind of agreement to stay silent, but that SHOULD NOT apply when a crime is being covered up, right? As far as whistle-blowing goes, this is a pretty timid case with no way for "enemies" to take advantage of this information.
I think the Nuremberg trials proved this amply. Even if your superiors tell you to commit a crime, it is YOU who commits it and are thus responsible for your actions. Spying on citizens is an illegal act, and he is thus correct to refuse to do so, and in fact report the crime. In this case the only way of reporting it was to blow the whole thing open by giving the information to the press (the police would probably just have turned him right back over to the NSA, who would've destroyed the evidence and pretended it never happened).
So, I don't see how he can be guilty under international law. Of course, under US law I presume there are all kinds of clauses and things that mean he is guilty of theft, espionage and probably rape and murder as well if the NSA wants it so.
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I'm sorry, but the man is a traitor and a terrorist.
The government tries to protect the people from turban guys and this little bitch tries to throw a wrench in their gears.
Who does he think he is, fucking with America?
And so what if the government spy on us, have you got something to hide?
If you're not a terrorist, gay or paedophile, surely you don't mind e-mail and telephone surveillance.
I'd rather have my conversations recorded than some anti-Jesus sand people fly an airplane into MY yard.
Have you liberal pussies already forgotten Boston? That shows why we need a system in place to prevent Muslims from entering our great nation. Either send them back, or send them to my yard, and I will show them what a shotgun MADE IN AMERICA is capable of.
If you're fucking with Jesus, you're fucking with me.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 26 2013 05:35 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 03:00 MidKnight wrote:
The fact that there are people supporting the government when it's essentially using propaganda and trying to play the good ol' "WE ARE THE BIG SCARY GOVERNMENT DON'T FUCK WITH US!" card, is pretty sad..
Like Snowden said, he *could* have leaked classified information to US "enemies" (a loose term), but the only thing he did was expose a very clear abuse of power from government's side. The officials have clearly lied to supreme court multiple times about the program.
Yes, the employees did write some kind of agreement to stay silent, but that SHOULD NOT apply when a crime is being covered up, right? As far as whistle-blowing goes, this is a pretty timid case with no way for "enemies" to take advantage of this information. I think the Nuremberg trials proved this amply. Even if your superiors tell you to commit a crime, it is YOU who commits it and are thus responsible for your actions. Spying on citizens is an illegal act, and he is thus correct to refuse to do so, and in fact report the crime. In this case the only way of reporting it was to blow the whole thing open by giving the information to the press (the police would probably just have turned him right back over to the NSA, who would've destroyed the evidence and pretended it never happened). So, I don't see how he can be guilty under international law. Of course, under US law I presume there are all kinds of clauses and things that mean he is guilty of theft, espionage and probably rape and murder as well if the NSA wants it so.
What the NSA is doing is incomprehensible, possibly immoral, and definitely makes me feel icky. But it's not illegal. Yay Bush  you haunt me even after your terms are up...
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On June 26 2013 05:25 biology]major wrote:
more appropriate question is do we have to sacrifice our rights to combat terrorism, even a little?
More more appropriate question: Should this be a question at all? Sacrificing human rights cannot be justified by any means. If there once is a legitimation to rob a person of his or her inherited rights, it will always remain a door opener to pursue people that are different from what those in charge expect them to be. It is the key to a totaliterian regime, which none of us should be willing to allow.
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On June 26 2013 05:35 Meow-Meow wrote:
I'm sorry, but the man is a traitor and a terrorist.
The government tries to protect the people from turban guys and this little bitch tries to throw a wrench in their gears.
Who does he think he is, fucking with America?
And so what if the government spy on us, have you got something to hide?
If you're not a terrorist, gay or paedophile, surely you don't mind e-mail and telephone surveillance.
I'd rather have my conversations recorded than some anti-Jesus sand people fly an airplane into MY yard.
Have you liberal pussies already forgotten Boston? That shows why we need a system in place to prevent Muslims from entering our great nation. Either send them back, or send them to my yard, and I will show them what a shotgun MADE IN AMERICA is capable of.
If you're fucking with Jesus, you're fucking with me.
User was temp banned for this post.
I cant tell if I am Romanian or if this guy is actually serious.
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On June 26 2013 05:38 BBS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 05:25 biology]major wrote:
more appropriate question is do we have to sacrifice our rights to combat terrorism, even a little? More more appropriate question: Should this be a question at all? Sacrificing human rights cannot be justified by any means. If there once is a legitimation to rob a person of his or her inherited rights, it will always remain a door opener to pursue people that are different from what those in charge expect them to be. It is the key to a totaliterian regime, which none of us should be willing to allow.
there is a conflict of interest between preserving human life vs preserving human rights.
edit: what the government did was wrong by not being transparent to the people, that much I know. But is the actual surveillance a crime? If it even stopped 1 terrorist attack from happening then is it justifiable?
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To US laws, he might be guilty.
To me and 90% of the worldwide population, he is a hero.
So, do you want to know if he's moraly guilty or if he's guilty because papers say so ?
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Is this even a question? Espionage is inherently a clandestine operation, Snowden is not a part of any intelligence or military operations, nor did he carry it out in secrecy from the public. He's acting against the interest of his government and he's using information which he already had access to. The espionage charge is all sorts of bull shit. If this is honestly a precedence to be set where we just label whistle blowers as spies the integrity with in non-publicly accessible organizations is going to drop off the god damn cliff-face.
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On June 26 2013 05:15 XCetron wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 05:10 Fruscainte wrote:
I mean of course he's "guilty" in the legalistic sense, but he's honestly what this country needed.
Not all crime is inherently evil, I think is fair to say. What Snowden did was illegal, but probably the most morally correct thing anyone has done for this country in the past 50 years. Really? Most morally correct anyone has done, for this country (presumably United States of America),in the past 50 years (1963-2013)?
45 years then, since I know the race cards are about to be thrown up :|
But yes, I'd argue that revealing this kind of information is something that is amazingly moral. This guy didn't do it for fame or fortune. He had a comfortable life and was in no danger. He wasn't doing this out of spite, he was doing it because it was fucking right and we deserve to know that our government is doing this kind of shit and he's paying the ultimate price for it.
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On June 26 2013 05:35 Meow-Meow wrote:
I'm sorry, but the man is a traitor and a terrorist.
The government tries to protect the people from turban guys and this little bitch tries to throw a wrench in their gears.
Who does he think he is, fucking with America?
And so what if the government spy on us, have you got something to hide?
If you're not a terrorist, gay or paedophile, surely you don't mind e-mail and telephone surveillance.
I'd rather have my conversations recorded than some anti-Jesus sand people fly an airplane into MY yard.
Have you liberal pussies already forgotten Boston? That shows why we need a system in place to prevent Muslims from entering our great nation. Either send them back, or send them to my yard, and I will show them what a shotgun MADE IN AMERICA is capable of.
If you're fucking with Jesus, you're fucking with me.
User was temp banned for this post.
Obvious satire is a bannable offense now?
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On June 26 2013 05:35 Meow-Meow wrote:
I'm sorry, but the man is a traitor and a terrorist.
The government tries to protect the people from turban guys and this little bitch tries to throw a wrench in their gears.
Who does he think he is, fucking with America?
And so what if the government spy on us, have you got something to hide?
If you're not a terrorist, gay or paedophile, surely you don't mind e-mail and telephone surveillance.
I'd rather have my conversations recorded than some anti-Jesus sand people fly an airplane into MY yard.
Have you liberal pussies already forgotten Boston? That shows why we need a system in place to prevent Muslims from entering our great nation. Either send them back, or send them to my yard, and I will show them what a shotgun MADE IN AMERICA is capable of.
If you're fucking with Jesus, you're fucking with me.
User was temp banned for this post.
If I'm not a terrorist or a pedophile or doing anything wrong, why does the government have any business spying on me?
Great satire though, 11/10 
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United States7483 Posts
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On June 26 2013 05:43 eNbee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 05:35 Meow-Meow wrote:
I'm sorry, but the man is a traitor and a terrorist.
The government tries to protect the people from turban guys and this little bitch tries to throw a wrench in their gears.
Who does he think he is, fucking with America?
And so what if the government spy on us, have you got something to hide?
If you're not a terrorist, gay or paedophile, surely you don't mind e-mail and telephone surveillance.
I'd rather have my conversations recorded than some anti-Jesus sand people fly an airplane into MY yard.
Have you liberal pussies already forgotten Boston? That shows why we need a system in place to prevent Muslims from entering our great nation. Either send them back, or send them to my yard, and I will show them what a shotgun MADE IN AMERICA is capable of.
If you're fucking with Jesus, you're fucking with me.
User was temp banned for this post. Obvious satire is a bannable offense now?
Doesn't make the post any more bad.
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On June 26 2013 05:43 Fruscainte wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 05:35 Meow-Meow wrote:
I'm sorry, but the man is a traitor and a terrorist.
The government tries to protect the people from turban guys and this little bitch tries to throw a wrench in their gears.
Who does he think he is, fucking with America?
And so what if the government spy on us, have you got something to hide?
If you're not a terrorist, gay or paedophile, surely you don't mind e-mail and telephone surveillance.
I'd rather have my conversations recorded than some anti-Jesus sand people fly an airplane into MY yard.
Have you liberal pussies already forgotten Boston? That shows why we need a system in place to prevent Muslims from entering our great nation. Either send them back, or send them to my yard, and I will show them what a shotgun MADE IN AMERICA is capable of.
If you're fucking with Jesus, you're fucking with me.
User was temp banned for this post. If I'm not a terrorist or a pedophile or doing anything wrong, why does the government have any business spying on me? Great satire though, 11/10
Just want to say, it was worth meow-meow getting temp banned for the smile on my face 
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