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Active: 3134 users

Is Snowden guilty of espionage?

Forum Index > General Forum
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electronic voyeur
Profile Joined October 2012
United States133 Posts
June 25 2013 17:34 GMT
#1
The US government has officially charged NSA whistleblower with espionage charges. Did he or did he not under national and international laws in fact committed espionage?

Under US laws, espionage means a government or individual obtaining information considered secret or confidential without the permission of the holder of the information. Espionage is moreover an institutional effort by a government or commercial concern on potential or actual enemies primarily for military purposes.

In the case of Snowden, the question lies in the issue of "obtain". He is a commissioned employee of the NSA, and as such the information he obtain he did so legally and with the full knowledge and consent of NSA, and by extension the US government. But when we start to reclassify obtain in the sense of obtaining for the purpose other than what is officially intended, which in this case Snowden did by coping NSA information and sharing them to the media, then the espionage case might make some sense. On the second point of being done on potential or actual enemies, for military purposes, this still has yet to be determined as the issue of whether Snowden is a spy for Hong Kong or China or whatever is still being investigated.

What does TL think about this issue? Is Snowden a spy, and did he commit espionage by releasing to the public information which he thought are invasive to their privacy?
electronic voyeur
Profile Joined October 2012
United States133 Posts
June 25 2013 17:35 GMT
#2
oops, title should be *Is Snowden guilty of espionage?
modes please.
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-25 17:39:24
June 25 2013 17:38 GMT
#3
Well I don't know. In a sense, Snowden released confidential information. On the other hand, it released confidential information about the US stealing confidential information from its citizens... So it cancels out, really.
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
S:klogW
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria657 Posts
June 25 2013 17:39 GMT
#4
I think did he not.
E = 1.89 eV = 3.03 x 10^(-19) J
-Archangel-
Profile Joined May 2010
Croatia7457 Posts
June 25 2013 17:40 GMT
#5
can you show us these international laws about espionage? I never heard of those.

By US law he is for sure guilty, but that does not make his less of a hero in eyes of people all over the world.
Spekulatius
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany2413 Posts
June 25 2013 17:46 GMT
#6
I assume it's not technically espionage if obtaining the information was legal in the first place.

But I'm no US lawyer.

Someone summon dAPhREAk.
Always smile~
Klondikebar
Profile Joined October 2011
United States2227 Posts
June 25 2013 17:47 GMT
#7
I really don't think that illegal government activity is protected under any sort of National Security. Therefore exposing it can't be classified as any sort of crime. I'm quite certain the laws (conveniently) define things differently to protect those in power but that's absolutely not the way it should be.
#2throwed
Influ
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany780 Posts
June 25 2013 17:47 GMT
#8
I don't think there is a doubt that he is a criminal in the US. In Germany for example every other employee of NSA is a criminal. In Germany we have a saying: being in the right and getting justice are two different things.
Superouman
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
France2195 Posts
June 25 2013 17:49 GMT
#9
Being accused of espionnage for leaking an espionnage program, how ironic.
Search "[SO]" on B.net to find all my maps ||| Cloud Kingdom / Turbo Cruise '84 / Bone Temple / Eternal Empire / Zen / Purity and Industry / Golden Wall / Fortitude / Beckett Industries / Waterfall
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
June 25 2013 17:49 GMT
#10
On June 26 2013 02:46 Spekulatius wrote:
I assume it's not technically espionage if obtaining the information was legal in the first place.

But I'm no US lawyer.

Someone summon dAPhREAk.

It's probably the releasing information part that's illegal, not how you get it. Some people in the CIA have security clearances so they get a lot of confidential information, they can't release it even if they get it "legally".
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
Vanimar
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
220 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-26 16:51:13
June 25 2013 17:51 GMT
#11
It all depends on th edefinitions and guidelines of "espionage" in the US I guess.
Although since it is the US he will be tried or it, since, well, republicans.....
I figured out the EG Curse. It was set in motion by Voodoo Shamans working for Millenium. Whenever EG aquires a player, Voodoo energies start slowly draining skill from the EG guy into an Millenium newcomer. Think about it!
Panda86
Profile Joined June 2013
19 Posts
June 25 2013 17:52 GMT
#12
Under US law he is most certainly guilty of espionage. However I see him as a hero. He is jsut one of many whistleblowers nowadays bringing to light the criminality of the US government
Spekulatius
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany2413 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-25 17:54:13
June 25 2013 17:53 GMT
#13
On June 26 2013 02:49 Djzapz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2013 02:46 Spekulatius wrote:
I assume it's not technically espionage if obtaining the information was legal in the first place.

But I'm no US lawyer.

Someone summon dAPhREAk.

It's probably the releasing information part that's illegal, not how you get it. Some people in the CIA have security clearances so they get a lot of confidential information, they can't release it even if they get it "legally".

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm sure there's a law that makes what he did a punishable offense. I was just pondering if "espionage" is the correct legal term.
Always smile~
Arghmyliver
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States1079 Posts
June 25 2013 17:54 GMT
#14
At the risk of sounding clichéd - the American colonies (and indeed any area of colonialism which subsequently rebelled in order to establish their independence) were breaking all sorts of laws with their uprising (not the least of which being treason). I think the law should many times always take backseat to Humanitarianism.
Now witness their attempts to fly from tree to tree. Notice they do not so much fly as plummet.
RouaF
Profile Joined October 2010
France4121 Posts
June 25 2013 17:54 GMT
#15
You should add a poll to the op. For me he is clearly NOT guilty, in fact he's more like a hero.
TheRabidDeer
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
United States3806 Posts
June 25 2013 17:54 GMT
#16
Isn't espionage when you obtain information that you werent supposed to have access to then release it? Also, what about that whistleblower protection act from 1989?
floor exercise
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Canada5847 Posts
June 25 2013 17:55 GMT
#17
I don't think he didn't not guiltify himself of espionage but if he didn't or did it was for the greater good of humanity
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
June 25 2013 17:56 GMT
#18
On June 26 2013 02:53 Spekulatius wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2013 02:49 Djzapz wrote:
On June 26 2013 02:46 Spekulatius wrote:
I assume it's not technically espionage if obtaining the information was legal in the first place.

But I'm no US lawyer.

Someone summon dAPhREAk.

It's probably the releasing information part that's illegal, not how you get it. Some people in the CIA have security clearances so they get a lot of confidential information, they can't release it even if they get it "legally".

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm sure there's a law that makes what he did a punishable offense. I was just pondering if "espionage" is the correct legal term.

They don't always use the correct legal terms... the boston bomber guy got charged with using a WMD x_x.
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
meadbert
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States681 Posts
June 25 2013 17:56 GMT
#19
My understanding is that he used his position as System Administrator to access data he was not supposed to. He then smuggled it out.

As long as the purpose was to go to the press, then IMHO he is more of a whistleblower than a spy.

If he was payed by the Russians or Chinese (or even if he were payed by the press) then that would make him more of a spy.
Spekulatius
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany2413 Posts
June 25 2013 17:56 GMT
#20
On June 26 2013 02:55 floor exercise wrote:
I don't think he didn't not guiltify himself of espionage but if he didn't or did it was for the greater good of humanity

Triple negatives ftw.
Always smile~
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