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On June 26 2013 02:54 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Isn't espionage when you obtain information that you werent supposed to have access to then release it? Also, what about that whistleblower protection act from 1989?
Obama promised he would protect whistle blowers and then turned out to be the most oppressive president in our history. His administration has been nothing but antagonistic to the free press, he's had citizens executed simply for suspected terrorism, and he's signed a bill that allows for indefinite detention of American citizens based on the mere suspicion of terrorism. The fact that Snowden is being charged with any crime at all means that, if he's caught, he'll rot for the next 60 years in a foreign prison without so much as a phone call.
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On June 26 2013 02:56 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 02:53 Spekulatius wrote:On June 26 2013 02:49 Djzapz wrote:On June 26 2013 02:46 Spekulatius wrote:
I assume it's not technically espionage if obtaining the information was legal in the first place.
But I'm no US lawyer.
Someone summon dAPhREAk. It's probably the releasing information part that's illegal, not how you get it. Some people in the CIA have security clearances so they get a lot of confidential information, they can't release it even if they get it "legally". Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm sure there's a law that makes what he did a punishable offense. I was just pondering if "espionage" is the correct legal term. They don't always use the correct legal terms... the boston bomber guy got charged with using a WMD x_x.
Really? Wow... hyperbole much.
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United Kingdom10020 Posts
To be honest (i know America bashing is way over the top on this forum) i think the US has handled this situation extremely badly. They are starting to be as unpopular as they were during the Bush regime.
The impression they are giving out is that they can do what the fuck they want with people's data, all over the world, and anybody who exposes it or gets in the way will be chased down and jailed.
My government is just as bad. If it had been a UK citizen, i'm sure the situation would look the same.
They need to learn to take a loss, instead raging and crying.
Snowden is not a hero, and he is not a criminal. He did his duty as a citizen of the world. Punishing him for this is a crime.
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unless the US government considers the US public as the enemy...no
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Snowdens not guilty of espionage. He may be guilty of other laws sure, but not espionage.
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The fact that there are people supporting the government when it's essentially using propaganda and trying to play the good ol' "WE ARE THE BIG SCARY GOVERNMENT DON'T FUCK WITH US!" card, is pretty sad..
Like Snowden said, he *could* have leaked classified information to US "enemies" (a loose term), but the only thing he did was expose a very clear abuse of power from government's side. The officials have clearly lied to supreme court multiple times about the program.
Yes, the employees did write some kind of agreement to stay silent, but that SHOULD NOT apply when a crime is being covered up, right? As far as whistle-blowing goes, this is a pretty timid case with no way for "enemies" to take advantage of this information.
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On June 26 2013 02:58 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 02:56 Djzapz wrote:On June 26 2013 02:53 Spekulatius wrote:On June 26 2013 02:49 Djzapz wrote:On June 26 2013 02:46 Spekulatius wrote:
I assume it's not technically espionage if obtaining the information was legal in the first place.
But I'm no US lawyer.
Someone summon dAPhREAk. It's probably the releasing information part that's illegal, not how you get it. Some people in the CIA have security clearances so they get a lot of confidential information, they can't release it even if they get it "legally". Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm sure there's a law that makes what he did a punishable offense. I was just pondering if "espionage" is the correct legal term. They don't always use the correct legal terms... the boston bomber guy got charged with using a WMD x_x. Really? Wow... hyperbole much.
Yeah, something about the US Justice system using "WMD" ridiculously loosely... It's likely a way to slap death sentences and lifetime in prison on people without too much effort.
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Here's what I find sinister. In the US, the court system is supposed to be the check to make sure the other branches of government behave in accordance with the law and constitution. But if these programs are super classified so that if you expose them you are hunted to the ends of the earth, there's no chance for a real court to ever check on it.
The FISA court (If you are unfamiliar, read here) acted grossly illegally by granting the warrant for this, way overstepped it's bounds and basically demonstrated exactly why people were always so concerned about it, a top secret government court with no oversight just granting whatever the other branches want.
Snowden is an American hero.
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Hes a hero if you ask me. Speaking up against "authority" has been classified as criminal in more than this case.
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Under US laws, espionage means a government or individual obtaining information considered secret or confidential without the permission of the holder of the information.
Well, errr.....someone in this situation was certainly guilty of that. Not sure it was Snowden though.
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On June 26 2013 02:54 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Isn't espionage when you obtain information that you werent supposed to have access to then release it? Also, what about that whistleblower protection act from 1989?
US legal definition of espionage is:
"The act of obtaining, delivering, transmitting, communicating, or receiving information about the national defense with an intent, or reason to believe, that the information may be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation"
So the question is if he has reason to believe that the information "may be used to the injury if United States or the advantage of any foreign nation"
I would say the rubbery definition includes what he did and thus the kid has committed espionage.
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It really depends on the definition of the term. I'd say he's probably guilty of espionage as the US government has defined it pursuant to its charges against him. But I think such a law is unjust and that Snowden was morally correct to break it and whistleblow.
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Interesting article from last year that shows what federal agencies/programs have been doing with whistleblowers/suspected whistleblowers in recent times:
http://www.salon.com/2012/02/09/obamas_unprecedented_war_on_whistleblowers/
It is kind of disgusting.
I am sure there is some kind of groupthink mentality that is bringing me to think this, but it really feels like the US is nearly reaching that thought police level of "security".
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Yes, hes guilty of espionage and therefore a traitor. When we work for any type federal jobs from organization, institution, and state we are required to sign and obey this loyalty oath. This oath requires us to support and defend the constitution against all enemies of the United States of America. By giving out information he broke this oath and therefore declared enemy of the state by doing so. He knew by releasing this information he would be an enemy/traitor to the U.S.
http://twothirds.us/the-oaths-of-office/
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On June 26 2013 03:16 TriO wrote:
Yes, hes guilty of espionage and therefore a traitor. When we work for any type federal jobs from organization, institution, and state we are required to sign and obey this loyalty oath. This oath requires us to support and defend the constitution against all enemies of the United States of America. By giving out information he broke this oath and therefore declared enemy of the state by doing so. He knew by releasing this information he would be an enemy/traitor to the U.S.
You're very loyal to your handlers.
I think that perhaps you should be loyal to the citizens of the US and not loyal to the government of the US. When the government does something which is unconstitutional, it's fair game to disobey your corrupt government.
Oaths don't supersede the importance of the citizens.
Snowden is not a traitor. The true bad guys here are the politicians who decided to disregard the constitution and decided to spy on their own citizens.
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On June 26 2013 03:16 TriO wrote:Yes, hes guilty of espionage and therefore a traitor. When we work for any type federal jobs from organization, institution, and state we are required to sign and obey this loyalty oath. This oath requires us to support and defend the constitution against all enemies of the United States of America. By giving out information he broke this oath and therefore declared enemy of the state by doing so. He knew by releasing this information he would be an enemy/traitor to the U.S. http://twothirds.us/the-oaths-of-office/
But what if that branch of the government is breaching the constitution? He may be a traitor to the American government but he is a hero to the American people. The government is the employee of the people and when the government oversteppes its mandate (like it has clearly done here, lying to courts etc.) it's the duty of every good citizen to expose the obvious misuse of power.
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I wasn't aware of informing the American Public of being spied on was espionage.
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On June 26 2013 03:11 Shiori wrote:
It really depends on the definition of the term. I'd say he's probably guilty of espionage as the US government has defined it pursuant to its charges against him. But I think such a law is unjust and that Snowden was morally correct to break it and whistleblow.
I agree. I, however, still lack a lot of understanding about the specifics. Example: PRISM is a program about american based internet companies agreeing to supply NSA with still unspecified information about users. However, Obama is thundering that only the phone number of both people speaking will be recorded and thus the wiretapping from NSA is anonymous? Huh? I still haven't heard the people in the know actually saying anything substantial about the revealed information on PRISM and the use of telephone survillance is not the thing in question here. I hope that the telephone thing is an analogy for only IP being connected over social media (an IP they can connect to a person from ISPs), but that seems completely inconsistent with FISA and the broad data mining supposedly being done...
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On June 26 2013 02:59 Jockmcplop wrote:
To be honest (i know America bashing is way over the top on this forum) i think the US has handled this situation extremely badly. They are starting to be as unpopular as they were during the Bush regime.
The impression they are giving out is that they can do what the fuck they want with people's data, all over the world, and anybody who exposes it or gets in the way will be chased down and jailed.
My government is just as bad. If it had been a UK citizen, i'm sure the situation would look the same.
They need to learn to take a loss, instead raging and crying.
Snowden is not a hero, and he is not a criminal. He did his duty as a citizen of the world. Punishing him for this is a crime.
Actually it is not. TL profits most from US so I seen their mods protect US and some of its actions through different topics by banning or deleting content from some posters. And by that I mean content that bashes US over the top.
What is left is bashing that is standard and not in any way over the top.
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EPT
