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On January 16 2014 03:23 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 00:41 ETisME wrote:
Whether Snowden should be judged as guilty of espionage does not matter, what matters is the NSA.
The rapid development of technology involved in our lives are making these info even more easily obtainable by the NSA.
what it can do now is only a small proportional of what it can do in the not too far distance.
And what can we do about it? Nothing, exposing NSA will only slow it down. Government can easily change its name, make backdoor deals with companies and run it all over again and this time, we might never ever hear about this program.
imo, he might have exposed too many documents to other countries, it might be a safety net for him to "bride" his way into a foreign land and live his life, or it might be him making deals before he even ran off with the documents.
But we should not place any less attention onto these spy activities, especially on its own people.
I thought the great wall of China was bad. but NSA bad? What if China has this level of technology and spying on its own people.
and we know it will happen because technology will get figured out, adopted and improved.
I worry for our society future and what it means to live in such country.
To me I am under the opinion China is currently spying at a much greater level then the US and that it's just common knowledge. It would almost be naive to think that China is spying any less then the US. Our computer systems are hacked into on a daily bases from Chinese hackers. Obviously I'm biased from what history classes has taught me about the cold war. But seeing the extent that North Korea goes to, to keep tabs on every citizen the US and China could be no better, but are just less obvious.
Why should China be the level at which the line is drawn?
You're implying that it doesn't matter what the US does as long as China is worse. China is one of the worst countries, its sounds like to you its ok for the US to be the second worst country in terms of privacy and freedom in the world.
If you compare the US to all other first world countries, the US almost looks like China compared to them.
Is China really a standard we should be comparing to when looking at this issue?
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On January 16 2014 00:00 BisuDagger wrote:It's been a while since this thread was in discussion. Lots of stuff has come out. Most recently though his acts are having great affects on us. Show nested quote +"The New York Times has an interesting story on how NSA put transmitters into the USB input devices of PC, allowing computers unplugged from the Internet to still be monitored, via radio, from up to 8 miles away. The article mainly reports NSA's use of the technology to monitor Chinese military, and minor headline reads 'No Domestic Use Seen'. The source of the data was evidently the leak from Edward J. Snowden." source: http://news.slashdot.org/story/14/01/15/1324216/nyt-nsa-put-100000-radio-pathway-backdoors-in-pcsSo, I can agree to some level if you want to argue in favor of him doing right by providing information on domestic affairs. But the job of the NSA and CIA are here to gather information on affairs outside of the US. I'm not great at debating, but in my opinion I think Snowden is more then guilty and wonder why he's getting so many accolades. Written before this latest news is the best argument for my opinon" Show nested quote +"Fred Kaplan, the Edward R. Murrow press fellow at the Council on Foreign Relation, writes at Slate that if Edward Snowden's stolen trove of beyond-top-secret documents had dealt only with the domestic surveillance by the NSA, then some form of leniency might be worth discussing. But Snowden did much more than that. 'Snowden's documents have, so far, furnished stories about the NSA's interception of email traffic, mobile phone calls, and radio transmissions of Taliban fighters in Pakistan's northwest territories; about an operation to gauge the loyalties of CIA recruits in Pakistan; about NSA email intercepts to assist intelligence assessments of what's going on inside Iran; about NSA surveillance of cellphone calls 'worldwide,' an effort that 'allows it to look for unknown associates of known intelligence targets by tracking people whose movements intersect.' Kaplan says the NYT editorial calling on President Obama to grant Snowden 'some form of clemency' paints an incomplete picture when it claims that Snowden 'stole a trove of highly classified documents after he became disillusioned with the agency's voraciousness.' In fact, as Snowden himself told the South China Morning Post, he took his job as an NSA contractor, with Booz Allen Hamilton, because he knew that his position would grant him 'to lists of machines all over the world [that] the NSA hacked.' Snowden got himself placed at the NSA's signals intelligence center in Hawaii says Kaplan for the sole purpose of pilfering extremely classified documents. 'It may be telling that Snowden did not release mdash; or at least the recipients of his cache haven't yet published — any documents detailing the cyber-operations of any other countries, especially Russia or China,' concludes Kaplan. 'If it turned out that Snowden did give information to the Russians or Chinese (or if intelligence assessments show that the leaks did substantial damage to national security, something that hasn't been proved in public), then I'd say all talk of a deal is off — and I assume the Times editorial page would agree." source: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2014/01/edward_snowden_doesn_t_deserve_clemency_the_nsa_leaker_hasn_t_proved_he.single.html
I would urge you to also read an opinion contrary to Kaplan's. Might shed some light on why Snowden gets a lot of support.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/closeread/2014/01/did-edward-snowden-break-his-oath.html
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On January 16 2014 03:23 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 00:41 ETisME wrote:
Whether Snowden should be judged as guilty of espionage does not matter, what matters is the NSA.
The rapid development of technology involved in our lives are making these info even more easily obtainable by the NSA.
what it can do now is only a small proportional of what it can do in the not too far distance.
And what can we do about it? Nothing, exposing NSA will only slow it down. Government can easily change its name, make backdoor deals with companies and run it all over again and this time, we might never ever hear about this program.
imo, he might have exposed too many documents to other countries, it might be a safety net for him to "bride" his way into a foreign land and live his life, or it might be him making deals before he even ran off with the documents.
But we should not place any less attention onto these spy activities, especially on its own people.
I thought the great wall of China was bad. but NSA bad? What if China has this level of technology and spying on its own people.
and we know it will happen because technology will get figured out, adopted and improved.
I worry for our society future and what it means to live in such country.
To me I am under the opinion China is currently spying at a much greater level then the US and that it's just common knowledge. It would almost be naive to think that China is spying any less then the US. Our computer systems are hacked into on a daily bases from Chinese hackers. Obviously I'm biased from what history classes has taught me about the cold war. But seeing the extent that North Korea goes to, to keep tabs on every citizen the US and China could be no better, but are just less obvious.
oh I am sure they spy as well, however you have to consider China doesn't have the power to pull off things like demanding google/microsoft to deliver their data.
That is why China developed their own operation systems to prevent data getting obtained by the companies.
Hacking is expected, every country spy and China is way behind on spying.
the fact that US can have access to other countries' high profile political figurehead mobile phone data just shows how much better US is spying. While China is way behind and has to hack via more obvious and detectable means.
However, NSA is not just about spying between countries, it's spying its own people as well.
Countries do regulate people from time to time, China especially on this case, but do they spy at this scale? I highly doubt so. Chinese government is far more concerned about their own political enemies and foreign countries.
And this is what I am most concerned about.
Spying on countries? Understandable.
Spying on countries' political officials without a bottom line? Arguable.
Spying in grand scale on people both in their own country and outside? Definitly a terrifying thought .
And when these spying become more common, we will live in a f-ed up world
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On January 16 2014 12:05 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 03:23 BisuDagger wrote:On January 16 2014 00:41 ETisME wrote:
Whether Snowden should be judged as guilty of espionage does not matter, what matters is the NSA.
The rapid development of technology involved in our lives are making these info even more easily obtainable by the NSA.
what it can do now is only a small proportional of what it can do in the not too far distance.
And what can we do about it? Nothing, exposing NSA will only slow it down. Government can easily change its name, make backdoor deals with companies and run it all over again and this time, we might never ever hear about this program.
imo, he might have exposed too many documents to other countries, it might be a safety net for him to "bride" his way into a foreign land and live his life, or it might be him making deals before he even ran off with the documents.
But we should not place any less attention onto these spy activities, especially on its own people.
I thought the great wall of China was bad. but NSA bad? What if China has this level of technology and spying on its own people.
and we know it will happen because technology will get figured out, adopted and improved.
I worry for our society future and what it means to live in such country.
To me I am under the opinion China is currently spying at a much greater level then the US and that it's just common knowledge. It would almost be naive to think that China is spying any less then the US. Our computer systems are hacked into on a daily bases from Chinese hackers. Obviously I'm biased from what history classes has taught me about the cold war. But seeing the extent that North Korea goes to, to keep tabs on every citizen the US and China could be no better, but are just less obvious. Why should China be the level at which the line is drawn? You're implying that it doesn't matter what the US does as long as China is worse. China is one of the worst countries, its sounds like to you its ok for the US to be the second worst country in terms of privacy and freedom in the world. If you compare the US to all other first world countries, the US almost looks like China compared to them. Is China really a standard we should be comparing to when looking at this issue?
I wouldn't call China one of the worst countries. Hell, when was the last time they invaded a country on a different continent for oil?
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On January 18 2014 22:07 rudimentalfeelthelov wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2014 12:05 sluggaslamoo wrote:On January 16 2014 03:23 BisuDagger wrote:On January 16 2014 00:41 ETisME wrote:
Whether Snowden should be judged as guilty of espionage does not matter, what matters is the NSA.
The rapid development of technology involved in our lives are making these info even more easily obtainable by the NSA.
what it can do now is only a small proportional of what it can do in the not too far distance.
And what can we do about it? Nothing, exposing NSA will only slow it down. Government can easily change its name, make backdoor deals with companies and run it all over again and this time, we might never ever hear about this program.
imo, he might have exposed too many documents to other countries, it might be a safety net for him to "bride" his way into a foreign land and live his life, or it might be him making deals before he even ran off with the documents.
But we should not place any less attention onto these spy activities, especially on its own people.
I thought the great wall of China was bad. but NSA bad? What if China has this level of technology and spying on its own people.
and we know it will happen because technology will get figured out, adopted and improved.
I worry for our society future and what it means to live in such country.
To me I am under the opinion China is currently spying at a much greater level then the US and that it's just common knowledge. It would almost be naive to think that China is spying any less then the US. Our computer systems are hacked into on a daily bases from Chinese hackers. Obviously I'm biased from what history classes has taught me about the cold war. But seeing the extent that North Korea goes to, to keep tabs on every citizen the US and China could be no better, but are just less obvious. Why should China be the level at which the line is drawn? You're implying that it doesn't matter what the US does as long as China is worse. China is one of the worst countries, its sounds like to you its ok for the US to be the second worst country in terms of privacy and freedom in the world. If you compare the US to all other first world countries, the US almost looks like China compared to them. Is China really a standard we should be comparing to when looking at this issue? I wouldn't call China one of the worst countries. Hell, when was the last time they invaded a country on a different continent for oil?
That statement was made in context of how countries treat their own citizens.
Besides, just because geopolitical circumstances allow one entity to do things that the other can't, doesn't mean the other wouldn't do the same (or worse) in their place or if given a realistic opportunity to do so.
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On January 18 2014 22:28 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2014 22:07 rudimentalfeelthelov wrote:On January 16 2014 12:05 sluggaslamoo wrote:On January 16 2014 03:23 BisuDagger wrote:On January 16 2014 00:41 ETisME wrote:
Whether Snowden should be judged as guilty of espionage does not matter, what matters is the NSA.
The rapid development of technology involved in our lives are making these info even more easily obtainable by the NSA.
what it can do now is only a small proportional of what it can do in the not too far distance.
And what can we do about it? Nothing, exposing NSA will only slow it down. Government can easily change its name, make backdoor deals with companies and run it all over again and this time, we might never ever hear about this program.
imo, he might have exposed too many documents to other countries, it might be a safety net for him to "bride" his way into a foreign land and live his life, or it might be him making deals before he even ran off with the documents.
But we should not place any less attention onto these spy activities, especially on its own people.
I thought the great wall of China was bad. but NSA bad? What if China has this level of technology and spying on its own people.
and we know it will happen because technology will get figured out, adopted and improved.
I worry for our society future and what it means to live in such country.
To me I am under the opinion China is currently spying at a much greater level then the US and that it's just common knowledge. It would almost be naive to think that China is spying any less then the US. Our computer systems are hacked into on a daily bases from Chinese hackers. Obviously I'm biased from what history classes has taught me about the cold war. But seeing the extent that North Korea goes to, to keep tabs on every citizen the US and China could be no better, but are just less obvious. Why should China be the level at which the line is drawn? You're implying that it doesn't matter what the US does as long as China is worse. China is one of the worst countries, its sounds like to you its ok for the US to be the second worst country in terms of privacy and freedom in the world. If you compare the US to all other first world countries, the US almost looks like China compared to them. Is China really a standard we should be comparing to when looking at this issue? I wouldn't call China one of the worst countries. Hell, when was the last time they invaded a country on a different continent for oil? That statement was made in context of how countries treat their own citizens. Besides, just because geopolitical circumstances allow one entity to do things that the other can't, doesn't mean the other wouldn't do the same (or worse) in their place or if given a realistic opportunity to do so.
Since when are hypothetical situations an argument? It's what countires do that matters. Even if China wanted to act the way the US does (and that is a stretch, the US is an extremely warmongering country by any measure), that doesn't make it even remotely comparable to the US in that regard, because the US actually does that while China only wishes to...
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EPT
