• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 10:39
CEST 16:39
KST 23:39
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12
Community News
Weekly Cups (Aug 3-9): Protoss get shut out7RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-2212Weekly Cups (July 27-Aug 2): SHIN's big week0SC4ALL II: Brood War - $2500 - Dec 5-611SC4ALL II announced - $10,000 prize pool, Dec 5-64
StarCraft 2
General
GSTL Returns in 2026! SC4ALL: II Talent Announcement! https://www.facebook.com/Eco.Fuel.Reviews/ Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) Protoss AoE skill expression
Tourneys
PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) 2026 KungFu Cup Announcement Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
How to Watch RedNote Short Dramas in the United St u4gm Diablo 4: QoL Secrets for Faster Gameplay u4gm POE2 Frostbolt Build: A Powerful Boss Killer U4GM CFB 27 Guide: Why UTSA’s Offense Is So Danger
Brood War
General
StarCraft 64 is coming to Philly at SC4ALL II ASL22 General Discussion BW General Discussion [Personal Project Share] Terran Defense v0.60 BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
SC4ALL II: Brood War - $2500 - Dec 5-6 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3 2v2v2v2 Tournament
Strategy
Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Fighting Spirit mining rates Any training maps people recommend? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread EVE Corporation General RTS Discussion Thread Diablo 2 thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread The Letting Off Steam Thread Iain M Banks Says He Has Cancer And Months To Live Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
Chinese Gen Z: Between Dream…
TrAiDoS
Cathedral Of CS And NY pizza a…
FuDDx
Please support my new stand…
Peanutsc
Hello guys!
LIN1s
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 3634 users

Is Snowden guilty of espionage? - Page 28

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
Prev 1 26 27 28 All
sluggaslamoo
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Australia4494 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-16 03:06:54
January 16 2014 03:05 GMT
#541
On January 16 2014 03:23 BisuDagger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 16 2014 00:41 ETisME wrote:
Whether Snowden should be judged as guilty of espionage does not matter, what matters is the NSA.

The rapid development of technology involved in our lives are making these info even more easily obtainable by the NSA.
what it can do now is only a small proportional of what it can do in the not too far distance.

And what can we do about it? Nothing, exposing NSA will only slow it down. Government can easily change its name, make backdoor deals with companies and run it all over again and this time, we might never ever hear about this program.

imo, he might have exposed too many documents to other countries, it might be a safety net for him to "bride" his way into a foreign land and live his life, or it might be him making deals before he even ran off with the documents.

But we should not place any less attention onto these spy activities, especially on its own people.
I thought the great wall of China was bad. but NSA bad? What if China has this level of technology and spying on its own people.
and we know it will happen because technology will get figured out, adopted and improved.

I worry for our society future and what it means to live in such country.


To me I am under the opinion China is currently spying at a much greater level then the US and that it's just common knowledge. It would almost be naive to think that China is spying any less then the US. Our computer systems are hacked into on a daily bases from Chinese hackers. Obviously I'm biased from what history classes has taught me about the cold war. But seeing the extent that North Korea goes to, to keep tabs on every citizen the US and China could be no better, but are just less obvious.


Why should China be the level at which the line is drawn?

You're implying that it doesn't matter what the US does as long as China is worse. China is one of the worst countries, its sounds like to you its ok for the US to be the second worst country in terms of privacy and freedom in the world.

If you compare the US to all other first world countries, the US almost looks like China compared to them.

Is China really a standard we should be comparing to when looking at this issue?
Come play Android Netrunner - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=409008
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8760 Posts
January 16 2014 03:13 GMT
#542
On January 16 2014 00:00 BisuDagger wrote:
It's been a while since this thread was in discussion. Lots of stuff has come out. Most recently though his acts are having great affects on us.
Show nested quote +
"The New York Times has an interesting story on how NSA put transmitters into the USB input devices of PC, allowing computers unplugged from the Internet to still be monitored, via radio, from up to 8 miles away. The article mainly reports NSA's use of the technology to monitor Chinese military, and minor headline reads 'No Domestic Use Seen'. The source of the data was evidently the leak from Edward J. Snowden."

source: http://news.slashdot.org/story/14/01/15/1324216/nyt-nsa-put-100000-radio-pathway-backdoors-in-pcs

So, I can agree to some level if you want to argue in favor of him doing right by providing information on domestic affairs. But the job of the NSA and CIA are here to gather information on affairs outside of the US. I'm not great at debating, but in my opinion I think Snowden is more then guilty and wonder why he's getting so many accolades.

Written before this latest news is the best argument for my opinon"
Show nested quote +
"Fred Kaplan, the Edward R. Murrow press fellow at the Council on Foreign Relation, writes at Slate that if Edward Snowden's stolen trove of beyond-top-secret documents had dealt only with the domestic surveillance by the NSA, then some form of leniency might be worth discussing. But Snowden did much more than that. 'Snowden's documents have, so far, furnished stories about the NSA's interception of email traffic, mobile phone calls, and radio transmissions of Taliban fighters in Pakistan's northwest territories; about an operation to gauge the loyalties of CIA recruits in Pakistan; about NSA email intercepts to assist intelligence assessments of what's going on inside Iran; about NSA surveillance of cellphone calls 'worldwide,' an effort that 'allows it to look for unknown associates of known intelligence targets by tracking people whose movements intersect.' Kaplan says the NYT editorial calling on President Obama to grant Snowden 'some form of clemency' paints an incomplete picture when it claims that Snowden 'stole a trove of highly classified documents after he became disillusioned with the agency's voraciousness.' In fact, as Snowden himself told the South China Morning Post, he took his job as an NSA contractor, with Booz Allen Hamilton, because he knew that his position would grant him 'to lists of machines all over the world [that] the NSA hacked.' Snowden got himself placed at the NSA's signals intelligence center in Hawaii says Kaplan for the sole purpose of pilfering extremely classified documents. 'It may be telling that Snowden did not release mdash; or at least the recipients of his cache haven't yet published — any documents detailing the cyber-operations of any other countries, especially Russia or China,' concludes Kaplan. 'If it turned out that Snowden did give information to the Russians or Chinese (or if intelligence assessments show that the leaks did substantial damage to national security, something that hasn't been proved in public), then I'd say all talk of a deal is off — and I assume the Times editorial page would agree."

source: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2014/01/edward_snowden_doesn_t_deserve_clemency_the_nsa_leaker_hasn_t_proved_he.single.html


I would urge you to also read an opinion contrary to Kaplan's. Might shed some light on why Snowden gets a lot of support.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/closeread/2014/01/did-edward-snowden-break-his-oath.html
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before the fall.
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12838 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-16 03:54:05
January 16 2014 03:51 GMT
#543
On January 16 2014 03:23 BisuDagger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 16 2014 00:41 ETisME wrote:
Whether Snowden should be judged as guilty of espionage does not matter, what matters is the NSA.

The rapid development of technology involved in our lives are making these info even more easily obtainable by the NSA.
what it can do now is only a small proportional of what it can do in the not too far distance.

And what can we do about it? Nothing, exposing NSA will only slow it down. Government can easily change its name, make backdoor deals with companies and run it all over again and this time, we might never ever hear about this program.

imo, he might have exposed too many documents to other countries, it might be a safety net for him to "bride" his way into a foreign land and live his life, or it might be him making deals before he even ran off with the documents.

But we should not place any less attention onto these spy activities, especially on its own people.
I thought the great wall of China was bad. but NSA bad? What if China has this level of technology and spying on its own people.
and we know it will happen because technology will get figured out, adopted and improved.

I worry for our society future and what it means to live in such country.


To me I am under the opinion China is currently spying at a much greater level then the US and that it's just common knowledge. It would almost be naive to think that China is spying any less then the US. Our computer systems are hacked into on a daily bases from Chinese hackers. Obviously I'm biased from what history classes has taught me about the cold war. But seeing the extent that North Korea goes to, to keep tabs on every citizen the US and China could be no better, but are just less obvious.

oh I am sure they spy as well, however you have to consider China doesn't have the power to pull off things like demanding google/microsoft to deliver their data.
That is why China developed their own operation systems to prevent data getting obtained by the companies.

Hacking is expected, every country spy and China is way behind on spying.
the fact that US can have access to other countries' high profile political figurehead mobile phone data just shows how much better US is spying. While China is way behind and has to hack via more obvious and detectable means.

However, NSA is not just about spying between countries, it's spying its own people as well.
Countries do regulate people from time to time, China especially on this case, but do they spy at this scale? I highly doubt so. Chinese government is far more concerned about their own political enemies and foreign countries.

And this is what I am most concerned about.
Spying on countries? Understandable.
Spying on countries' political officials without a bottom line? Arguable.
Spying in grand scale on people both in their own country and outside? Definitly a terrifying thought .

And when these spying become more common, we will live in a f-ed up world
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
rudimentalfeelthelov
Profile Joined December 2013
Finland268 Posts
January 18 2014 13:07 GMT
#544
On January 16 2014 12:05 sluggaslamoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 16 2014 03:23 BisuDagger wrote:
On January 16 2014 00:41 ETisME wrote:
Whether Snowden should be judged as guilty of espionage does not matter, what matters is the NSA.

The rapid development of technology involved in our lives are making these info even more easily obtainable by the NSA.
what it can do now is only a small proportional of what it can do in the not too far distance.

And what can we do about it? Nothing, exposing NSA will only slow it down. Government can easily change its name, make backdoor deals with companies and run it all over again and this time, we might never ever hear about this program.

imo, he might have exposed too many documents to other countries, it might be a safety net for him to "bride" his way into a foreign land and live his life, or it might be him making deals before he even ran off with the documents.

But we should not place any less attention onto these spy activities, especially on its own people.
I thought the great wall of China was bad. but NSA bad? What if China has this level of technology and spying on its own people.
and we know it will happen because technology will get figured out, adopted and improved.

I worry for our society future and what it means to live in such country.


To me I am under the opinion China is currently spying at a much greater level then the US and that it's just common knowledge. It would almost be naive to think that China is spying any less then the US. Our computer systems are hacked into on a daily bases from Chinese hackers. Obviously I'm biased from what history classes has taught me about the cold war. But seeing the extent that North Korea goes to, to keep tabs on every citizen the US and China could be no better, but are just less obvious.


Why should China be the level at which the line is drawn?

You're implying that it doesn't matter what the US does as long as China is worse. China is one of the worst countries, its sounds like to you its ok for the US to be the second worst country in terms of privacy and freedom in the world.

If you compare the US to all other first world countries, the US almost looks like China compared to them.

Is China really a standard we should be comparing to when looking at this issue?


I wouldn't call China one of the worst countries. Hell, when was the last time they invaded a country on a different continent for oil?
Talin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Montenegro10532 Posts
January 18 2014 13:28 GMT
#545
On January 18 2014 22:07 rudimentalfeelthelov wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 16 2014 12:05 sluggaslamoo wrote:
On January 16 2014 03:23 BisuDagger wrote:
On January 16 2014 00:41 ETisME wrote:
Whether Snowden should be judged as guilty of espionage does not matter, what matters is the NSA.

The rapid development of technology involved in our lives are making these info even more easily obtainable by the NSA.
what it can do now is only a small proportional of what it can do in the not too far distance.

And what can we do about it? Nothing, exposing NSA will only slow it down. Government can easily change its name, make backdoor deals with companies and run it all over again and this time, we might never ever hear about this program.

imo, he might have exposed too many documents to other countries, it might be a safety net for him to "bride" his way into a foreign land and live his life, or it might be him making deals before he even ran off with the documents.

But we should not place any less attention onto these spy activities, especially on its own people.
I thought the great wall of China was bad. but NSA bad? What if China has this level of technology and spying on its own people.
and we know it will happen because technology will get figured out, adopted and improved.

I worry for our society future and what it means to live in such country.


To me I am under the opinion China is currently spying at a much greater level then the US and that it's just common knowledge. It would almost be naive to think that China is spying any less then the US. Our computer systems are hacked into on a daily bases from Chinese hackers. Obviously I'm biased from what history classes has taught me about the cold war. But seeing the extent that North Korea goes to, to keep tabs on every citizen the US and China could be no better, but are just less obvious.


Why should China be the level at which the line is drawn?

You're implying that it doesn't matter what the US does as long as China is worse. China is one of the worst countries, its sounds like to you its ok for the US to be the second worst country in terms of privacy and freedom in the world.

If you compare the US to all other first world countries, the US almost looks like China compared to them.

Is China really a standard we should be comparing to when looking at this issue?


I wouldn't call China one of the worst countries. Hell, when was the last time they invaded a country on a different continent for oil?


That statement was made in context of how countries treat their own citizens.

Besides, just because geopolitical circumstances allow one entity to do things that the other can't, doesn't mean the other wouldn't do the same (or worse) in their place or if given a realistic opportunity to do so.
maybenexttime
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Poland5860 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-18 15:40:42
January 18 2014 15:37 GMT
#546
On January 18 2014 22:28 Talin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2014 22:07 rudimentalfeelthelov wrote:
On January 16 2014 12:05 sluggaslamoo wrote:
On January 16 2014 03:23 BisuDagger wrote:
On January 16 2014 00:41 ETisME wrote:
Whether Snowden should be judged as guilty of espionage does not matter, what matters is the NSA.

The rapid development of technology involved in our lives are making these info even more easily obtainable by the NSA.
what it can do now is only a small proportional of what it can do in the not too far distance.

And what can we do about it? Nothing, exposing NSA will only slow it down. Government can easily change its name, make backdoor deals with companies and run it all over again and this time, we might never ever hear about this program.

imo, he might have exposed too many documents to other countries, it might be a safety net for him to "bride" his way into a foreign land and live his life, or it might be him making deals before he even ran off with the documents.

But we should not place any less attention onto these spy activities, especially on its own people.
I thought the great wall of China was bad. but NSA bad? What if China has this level of technology and spying on its own people.
and we know it will happen because technology will get figured out, adopted and improved.

I worry for our society future and what it means to live in such country.


To me I am under the opinion China is currently spying at a much greater level then the US and that it's just common knowledge. It would almost be naive to think that China is spying any less then the US. Our computer systems are hacked into on a daily bases from Chinese hackers. Obviously I'm biased from what history classes has taught me about the cold war. But seeing the extent that North Korea goes to, to keep tabs on every citizen the US and China could be no better, but are just less obvious.


Why should China be the level at which the line is drawn?

You're implying that it doesn't matter what the US does as long as China is worse. China is one of the worst countries, its sounds like to you its ok for the US to be the second worst country in terms of privacy and freedom in the world.

If you compare the US to all other first world countries, the US almost looks like China compared to them.

Is China really a standard we should be comparing to when looking at this issue?


I wouldn't call China one of the worst countries. Hell, when was the last time they invaded a country on a different continent for oil?


That statement was made in context of how countries treat their own citizens.

Besides, just because geopolitical circumstances allow one entity to do things that the other can't, doesn't mean the other wouldn't do the same (or worse) in their place or if given a realistic opportunity to do so.


Since when are hypothetical situations an argument? It's what countires do that matters. Even if China wanted to act the way the US does (and that is a stretch, the US is an extremely warmongering country by any measure), that doesn't make it even remotely comparable to the US in that regard, because the US actually does that while China only wishes to...
Prev 1 26 27 28 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
13:00
King of the Hill #259
WardiTV358
Liquipedia
PiG Sty Festival
12:00
PiGfest 8.0 Group A
Serral vs Lambo
SHIN vs Rogue
IntoTheiNu 1449
PiGStarcraft900
ComeBackTV 429
IndyStarCraft 227
Rex128
BRAT_OK 79
3DClanTV 42
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft900
IndyStarCraft 227
Rex 128
BRAT_OK 79
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 45069
Shuttle 3051
Bisu 1820
EffOrt 909
Light 595
Soulkey 485
Pusan 320
actioN 289
Larva 258
Rush 241
[ Show more ]
Stork 241
firebathero 240
Snow 224
ZerO 218
Hyuk 135
hero 97
Sea.KH 57
ToSsGirL 33
Sacsri 27
Hm[arnc] 26
Sexy 25
Sharp 23
sSak 21
Terrorterran 20
HiyA 15
sorry 14
yabsab 14
scan(afreeca) 11
Dewaltoss 0
Dota 2
The International97006
Gorgc19680
singsing4535
Dendi517
BananaSlamJamma217
KheZu78
Counter-Strike
fl0m5564
hiko538
x6flipin479
zeus223
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor102
XaKoH 89
Other Games
Lowko417
crisheroes257
Hui .185
Liquid`VortiX157
ToD150
ArmadaUGS71
Livibee68
QueenE64
KnowMe64
ZerO(Twitch)15
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 3
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 591
• lizZardDota250
League of Legends
• Jankos1868
• Nemesis1704
• TFBlade630
Other Games
• WagamamaTV114
Upcoming Events
OSC
5h 22m
Replay Cast
9h 22m
Escore
19h 22m
PiG Sty Festival
21h 22m
ByuN vs HeRoMaRinE
ShoWTimE vs Zoun
CranKy Ducklings
1d 19h
PiG Sty Festival
1d 21h
herO vs Krystianer
Solar vs Cure
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
PiG Sty Festival
2 days
Maru vs Shameless
Reynor vs TriGGeR
OSC
3 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Rush vs Hm
Bisu vs Shuttle
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Weekly
3 days
The Patches Monday
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
Sharp vs Shinee
Action vs Shine
PiGosaur Cup
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Afreeca Starleague
5 days
BeSt vs Paralyze
Jaedong vs Speed
Kung Fu Cup
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
KCM Race Survival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-08-12
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
Acropolis #5
RSL Revival: Season 6
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Esports World Cup 2026
Esports World Cup 2026: LCQ
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S3: W7
CSLAN 4
ASL Season 22
Escore Tournament S3: W8
Acropolis #5 - TRS
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Acropolis #5 - GSA
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
META DYMY #4
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Thunderpick World Champ.
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.