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On June 25 2013 06:49 HotShizz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 06:40 wei2coolman wrote:On June 25 2013 06:33 shinosai wrote:On June 25 2013 06:28 wei2coolman wrote:On June 25 2013 06:22 shinosai wrote:On June 25 2013 06:20 wei2coolman wrote:On June 25 2013 06:19 Klondikebar wrote:On June 25 2013 06:17 Plansix wrote:On June 25 2013 06:09 Klondikebar wrote:On June 25 2013 05:59 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Privilege imparts the idea that someone is not entitled to their place is life or what they have. It is insulting. We use it to refer to rich, care free people who have not experienced loss or other problems in life. If you want to win people to your side, why would you start by insulting them?
I don't disagree that straight people have it easier because they are straight. But saying it is "privilege" is not the best way to convey that. It is better to say the world treat you differently because you are gay. It takes the burden off of the person you are speaking with and does not impart fault to them. Calling them privileged does the opposite and makes it seem like they are part of the problem. We're not using the words to describe allies. It's in response to people who say they don't like having "the gay" shoved in their faces. Those people aren't allies. Those are people who feel entitled to have only heterosexuality portrayed. And, with regards to their orientation, yeah they are carefree and and have never experienced a problem. You'll forgive us for not being too worried that the word "privileged" makes a coddled straight person feel uncomfortable. How about me, who is totally comfortable, but still hates the word with the fire of a nova? Calling someone a "privileged white person" has the same affect as me calling someone "A typical angry black man". No matter what grain of truth there is in the statement, it is still aggressive and insulting to everyone in that demographic. There is no way I hear that phrase and side with the person who said it. It is a shitty way to argue the point and only serves to alienate everyone in that demographic. Do you feel entitled to only have heterosexuals displayed in the media and do you feel that any representation of homosexuality is "shoving it in your face?" If yes, then you are privileged and idc if you're insulted cause you lack perspective and are kinda a dick. If no, then you are not privileged and you shouldn't be getting bent out of shape about that word because no one is using it to describe you. I dunno about you, but American media has a lot of homosexual couples in it now... 4.4% is a lot? And that's only after tons of activism. Two years ago it was 2.9%. Dunno where that percentage comes from; but it's always in public eye imo. 2011-2012 http://www.glaad.org/publications/whereweareontv112.9% 2012-13 http://www.glaad.org/publications/whereweareontv124.4% Sorry, I probably should have sourced it in the first post. Still, that's not "a lot" of representation. I dunno if that's really an accurate representation though, at least in regards to media. It gives all show equal weight; when in reality certain shows pull in more audience members. Plus media isn't only just tv shows; movies, news, etc etc. Homosexuality is pretty much a constant trending topic. don't homosexuals make up less than 2% of the population as is? so 4.4% is actually over representative of the actual population.
Over or under representation of homosexuality in scripted shows isn't really the point. It merely has to do with how often the topic pops up in common media; which the answer is plenty often.
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On June 25 2013 04:37 MasterReY wrote:Its sad that a positive meant action, turns into one of the worst threads in the history of TL  People, please stop the religious discussions. This is a starcraft site man.
They had to expect it. The outcome was pretty obvious. Almost looks like an anti-"anti-gay people" mod witch-hunt.
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On June 25 2013 06:23 aseq wrote:
I don't mind gay e-sports people at all (or any gay people for that matter), but I still don't think we need this logo on the front page. We should treat them exactly as anyone else: equal. Not put a label on them and start waving the gay flag to show our support, I feel it's more degrading than anything else. Like saying: even though you're gay, we still like ya.
The gay friends I have share this viewpoint, they really dislike the gay culture and the way it tries to distantiate itself from 'normal' people. Ofc, in Amsterdam, this may be more extreme than in other places, but why is there a Gay and Lesbian bookstore in the city? Do they read their books from the back end, lol?
On the other side, there are many places where the general point of view isn't as tolerant as over here, in which case I don't mind showing a bit of support.
It isn't about a need, it's about communicating an acceptance. Generally, north american culture is wary around "the gays", and I don't see how someone taking a moment to say "Hey, we -like- you." is harmful or degrading to anyone.
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On June 25 2013 06:48 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 06:39 Klondikebar wrote:On June 25 2013 06:36 Raneth wrote:On June 25 2013 06:25 Klondikebar wrote:On June 25 2013 06:24 Plansix wrote:On June 25 2013 06:19 Klondikebar wrote:On June 25 2013 06:17 Plansix wrote:On June 25 2013 06:09 Klondikebar wrote:On June 25 2013 05:59 Plansix wrote:On June 25 2013 05:52 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
But privilege is exactly what it is. Your day to day activities regarding your sexual orientation aren't judged and aren't derided. And your sexual orientation is catered to almost exclusively in every medium. That's privilege. The world caters to you. Just because straight people don't like the word doesn't mean we're going to stop using it given that it's completely appropriate. If they don't like being called privileged imagine how gay people must feel to not even be privileged at all. Privilege imparts the idea that someone is not entitled to their place is life or what they have. It is insulting. We use it to refer to rich, care free people who have not experienced loss or other problems in life. If you want to win people to your side, why would you start by insulting them? I don't disagree that straight people have it easier because they are straight. But saying it is "privilege" is not the best way to convey that. It is better to say the world treat you differently because you are gay. It takes the burden off of the person you are speaking with and does not impart fault to them. Calling them privileged does the opposite and makes it seem like they are part of the problem. We're not using the words to describe allies. It's in response to people who say they don't like having "the gay" shoved in their faces. Those people aren't allies. Those are people who feel entitled to have only heterosexuality portrayed. And, with regards to their orientation, yeah they are carefree and and have never experienced a problem. You'll forgive us for not being too worried that the word "privileged" makes a coddled straight person feel uncomfortable. How about me, who is totally comfortable, but still hates the word with the fire of a nova? Calling someone a "privileged white person" has the same affect as me calling someone "A typical angry black man". No matter what grain of truth there is in the statement, it is still aggressive and insulting to everyone in that demographic. There is no way I hear that phrase and side with the person who said it. It is a shitty way to argue the point and only serves to alienate everyone in that demographic. Do you feel entitled to only have heterosexuals displayed in the media and do you feel that any representation of homosexuality is "shoving it in your face?" If yes, then you are privileged and idc if you're insulted cause you lack perspective and are kinda a dick. If no, then you are not privileged and you shouldn't be getting bent out of shape about that word because no one is using it to describe you. I don't are what characters are on screen and only want good writing and TV. And if you are using the phrase as an insult, then call it and insult. Don't use some argument to justify why a straight person is privileged, because you end up roping in the people who totally support gays and insulting them too. In short, just call the guy a douche and move on. Or just call him a typical privileged straight asshole, so everyone knows you are insulting him and not all straight people. You're being insulted by a word that doesn't even apply to you. I...don't really know how to help you. Dude, it doesn't matter if you are privileged and aware of it, or privileged and ignorant, if you are an english speaking, white, male, heterosexual, you are privileged. You lead a privileged life, and being aware of it doesn't stop it being the case, the word -does- apply to him, and it -does- apply to me, and it -does- apply to a lot of other people who are on -your side- of the debate. Read what he is saying again. So then why is it an insult? Why are they taking offense to it? Privileged implies that due to factors I cannot control, I am ignorant. No one likes to be called ignorant. It is a term that divides, not unifies. It puts the person being called privileged on the defense, and turns a potentially constructive discussion into a zero sum argument.
But...you are ignorant. None of a heterosexual's life experiences regarding their orientation equate to those of a gay man. You are ignorant of a gay man's experiences regarding their orientation. You are actually being offended by a simple and obvious fact. If that puts you on the defensive then you probably weren't that far from defensive to begin with.
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On June 25 2013 06:40 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 06:36 Signet wrote:On June 25 2013 06:27 Plansix wrote:
Then just insult them to their face and don't rope all straight people in with the insult. If I said "What a typical response from a gay," your would dig in your heels too, no matter how close to the truth I was. But I wouldn't say that. I would just call the person an ass-hat and move on. Good point. Even if an accusation of straight privilege is targeted at an obvious homophobe, it still has the effect of labeling all straight people as privileged. If "[xyz] privilege" doesn't mean it applies to all members of that group, then it's a meaningless concept or inaccurate term. Privilege doesn't mean you're dumb or anything like that, it just means that you have a different life experience. It can be used incorrectly but the concept isn't worthless. I have never had to deal with the feelings of alienation that would result from growing up being attracted to the "wrong" gender, I was privileged enough not to have to deal with that. That doesn't mean anything bad about me, it's just that I won the birth lottery in that regard and ended up straight in a predominantly straight society.
I may have been unclear -- my if-then statement was meant to show that "straight privilege" has to apply to all straight people, and that if it only applied to straight people who don't like gays, then it wouldn't be a meaningful term. (therefore it applies to all straight people)
I'm going to go back to something Plansix said earlier:
Privilege imparts the idea that someone is not entitled to their place is life or what they have. It is insulting. We use it to refer to rich, care free people who have not experienced loss or other problems in life. If you want to win people to your side, why would you start by insulting them?
I don't disagree that straight people have it easier because they are straight. But saying it is "privilege" is not the best way to convey that. It is better to say the world treat you differently because you are gay. It takes the burden off of the person you are speaking with and does not impart fault to them. Calling them privileged does the opposite and makes it seem like they are part of the problem.
We also think of privilege as a person being given something special, something they do not deserve. Whereas here, the situation is the opposite. We should be treating LGBT people the way we have historically treated straight people. If this treatment was something people didn't deserve (ie a privilege), then we should continue to treat LGBT people the way we historically have, and start treating straight people like that as well.
It's nit-picking about the word, but as was said at the beginning of this discussion:
I don't disagree that straight people have it easier because they are straight. But saying it is "privilege" is not the best way to convey that.
-- it's the word choice that is being reacted to, most reasonable people agree that the situation it is meant to describe is an accurate description of what has happened.
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Good move on doing the TL+ announcement before this nonsense. 
I support gay marriage 100%, but I don't approve of this branding.
Sorry guys.
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On June 25 2013 06:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 06:44 zdfgucker wrote:On June 25 2013 06:24 KwarK wrote:On June 25 2013 06:23 zdfgucker wrote:
Sigh.. I dislike the way TL is changing. This used to be a gaming site, can't we just keep it that way? I don't care about gay people, I hate everyone equally based on their character (a metric fuckton).
At this rate I will choose to remove the general forums from my sidebar. I come here for dota, not politics, sexuality nor any other non-issues. Comes here for dota, talks about how things used to be. Kid please. You know nothing. I came here for a link for Testie vs Bisu in WCG (?). Stayed for BW streams and then SC2; the latter is a disgrace and now I watch and play dota2 and can occasionally check how fast SC2 is dying. I've been using TL for longer than most people. Kid please. All right, I wish you luck with calling out KwarK. Let us know how that works out.
i was going to say that... lol..
in the red corner! TL KwarK with over 21 THOUSAND posts over his nearly 7 years here.
his opponent in the blue corner! zdfgucker with a SOLID 255 posts in his nearly 2 years.
kid plz indeed.
at least it was a bold strategy
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On June 25 2013 06:55 thundertoss wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 06:47 Plansix wrote:On June 25 2013 06:44 zdfgucker wrote:On June 25 2013 06:24 KwarK wrote:On June 25 2013 06:23 zdfgucker wrote:
Sigh.. I dislike the way TL is changing. This used to be a gaming site, can't we just keep it that way? I don't care about gay people, I hate everyone equally based on their character (a metric fuckton).
At this rate I will choose to remove the general forums from my sidebar. I come here for dota, not politics, sexuality nor any other non-issues. Comes here for dota, talks about how things used to be. Kid please. You know nothing. I came here for a link for Testie vs Bisu in WCG (?). Stayed for BW streams and then SC2; the latter is a disgrace and now I watch and play dota2 and can occasionally check how fast SC2 is dying. I've been using TL for longer than most people. Kid please. All right, I wish you luck with calling out KwarK. Let us know how that works out. i was going to say that... lol.. in the red corner! TL KwarK with over 21 THOUSAND posts over his nearly 7 years here. his opponent in the blue corner! zdfgucker with a SOLID 255 posts in his nearly 2 years. kid plz indeed. at least it was a bold strategy i surprises me that someone lurks on these forums for so long and doesnt know yet.
I mean, even i do...
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Rainbow Dash new TL Mascot? I can get behind that.
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On June 25 2013 05:54 Lucumo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 05:49 Kazeyonoma wrote:On June 25 2013 05:46 Lucumo wrote:On June 25 2013 05:11 Kazeyonoma wrote:On June 25 2013 05:09 Lucumo wrote:I don't like this, because this: On June 24 2013 22:23 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Please keep esports away from politics, religion, sexuality and other stuff. So don't click the thread regarding it, and OMG, you've kept yourself away from this topic, you can view EVERYTHING ELSE on the front page without so much as noticing anything has changed. Kpop? still there. SC2 Forums? Still there! Dota2 forums? Omg, still there. 1 thread. OMG LIQUID SITE SUCKS NOW. Why wouldn't I? People should normally want to inform themselves what all this is about. Also, there is no SC2 section. On June 25 2013 05:11 Djzapz wrote:On June 25 2013 05:09 Lucumo wrote:I don't like this, because this: On June 24 2013 22:23 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Please keep esports away from politics, religion, sexuality and other stuff. Equality is not purely about politics. You are definitely right. But from what I read so far, the context seems political. On June 24 2013 22:44 Arabidopsis wrote:
US Supreme Court are ruling about gay marriage. What. You clicked a link, regarding a RAINBOW TL logo, and didn't expect to find something about homosexual topics, and then you argue that you don't like reading about it? Why click it knowing it's gonna contain it. And uhh, no SC2 section? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft2Looks like a section dedicated to SC2 to me. The context is not political, it's about basic human rights, as Nazgul stated on his twitter, and it has less to do with the ruling and more to do with it being Gay Pride Week. Are you sure you didn't misunderstand me? I still don't have a SC2 section and am just playing along with his statement. Both still seem to be at the same time, so you can see it like this or that.
You've completely lost me, so I'm just gonna walk away now. I tell you if you don't like politics/religion/sexuality, and other stuff, to not click a link, that clearly will include those things, and if nothing else, just stop reading it once you learn that the link has those things, because, there are still other forums and topics to which you can browse, nothing changes. You state there is no SC2 section, i link you a direct link to it. You reply by saying am I sure I didn't misunderstand you (using double negatives to make the statement more confusing than it needs to be). You state there not being an SC2 section despite me linking it to you, and you claiming to be 'playing along with this statement', what. And then "Both still seem to be at the same time, so you can see it like this or that". I don't even know what this sentence means. Is it even a sentence?
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On June 25 2013 06:44 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 06:41 Plansix wrote:On June 25 2013 06:39 Klondikebar wrote:On June 25 2013 06:36 Raneth wrote:On June 25 2013 06:25 Klondikebar wrote:On June 25 2013 06:24 Plansix wrote:On June 25 2013 06:19 Klondikebar wrote:On June 25 2013 06:17 Plansix wrote:On June 25 2013 06:09 Klondikebar wrote:On June 25 2013 05:59 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Privilege imparts the idea that someone is not entitled to their place is life or what they have. It is insulting. We use it to refer to rich, care free people who have not experienced loss or other problems in life. If you want to win people to your side, why would you start by insulting them?
I don't disagree that straight people have it easier because they are straight. But saying it is "privilege" is not the best way to convey that. It is better to say the world treat you differently because you are gay. It takes the burden off of the person you are speaking with and does not impart fault to them. Calling them privileged does the opposite and makes it seem like they are part of the problem. We're not using the words to describe allies. It's in response to people who say they don't like having "the gay" shoved in their faces. Those people aren't allies. Those are people who feel entitled to have only heterosexuality portrayed. And, with regards to their orientation, yeah they are carefree and and have never experienced a problem. You'll forgive us for not being too worried that the word "privileged" makes a coddled straight person feel uncomfortable. How about me, who is totally comfortable, but still hates the word with the fire of a nova? Calling someone a "privileged white person" has the same affect as me calling someone "A typical angry black man". No matter what grain of truth there is in the statement, it is still aggressive and insulting to everyone in that demographic. There is no way I hear that phrase and side with the person who said it. It is a shitty way to argue the point and only serves to alienate everyone in that demographic. Do you feel entitled to only have heterosexuals displayed in the media and do you feel that any representation of homosexuality is "shoving it in your face?" If yes, then you are privileged and idc if you're insulted cause you lack perspective and are kinda a dick. If no, then you are not privileged and you shouldn't be getting bent out of shape about that word because no one is using it to describe you. I don't are what characters are on screen and only want good writing and TV. And if you are using the phrase as an insult, then call it and insult. Don't use some argument to justify why a straight person is privileged, because you end up roping in the people who totally support gays and insulting them too. In short, just call the guy a douche and move on. Or just call him a typical privileged straight asshole, so everyone knows you are insulting him and not all straight people. You're being insulted by a word that doesn't even apply to you. I...don't really know how to help you. Dude, it doesn't matter if you are privileged and aware of it, or privileged and ignorant, if you are an english speaking, white, male, heterosexual, you are privileged. You lead a privileged life, and being aware of it doesn't stop it being the case, the word -does- apply to him, and it -does- apply to me, and it -does- apply to a lot of other people who are on -your side- of the debate. Read what he is saying again. So then why is it an insult? Why are they taking offense to it? Because if I used it in the phrase "privileged rich kids" its a pejorative. Just like I use the word "Hun" with a woman I am mad at, it is a pejorative. Context is king with these words. It's an incorrectly applied pejorative because the kids didn't choose to be rich. They had no say in that part of their life experience. But we'd say they'd have trouble empathizing with poor kids, and in that regard we mean they are privileged. If they are insulted by that then...they're idiots who don't understand what words mean. And I do realize I've sorta split off into two lines of thought here. Yes, every straight white male is privileged. But I only ever bring it up as an issue or even really thing about it when they get offended by any representation other than heterosexuality.
This is horrible comparison rich healthy person who never had trouble in his life is privileged, straight white male could had a horrible life. The world privilege doesn't mean: has trouble with being emphatic.
I also don't like this world because it assumes normal treatment as privileged. You could just tell that he wasn't repressed because of his sexuality, that would be the way to clearly say what you want to say, without offending people that have nothing to do with that, without being confusing, and divisive for no reason.
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On June 25 2013 06:52 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 06:48 Bagration wrote:On June 25 2013 06:39 Klondikebar wrote:On June 25 2013 06:36 Raneth wrote:On June 25 2013 06:25 Klondikebar wrote:On June 25 2013 06:24 Plansix wrote:On June 25 2013 06:19 Klondikebar wrote:On June 25 2013 06:17 Plansix wrote:On June 25 2013 06:09 Klondikebar wrote:On June 25 2013 05:59 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Privilege imparts the idea that someone is not entitled to their place is life or what they have. It is insulting. We use it to refer to rich, care free people who have not experienced loss or other problems in life. If you want to win people to your side, why would you start by insulting them?
I don't disagree that straight people have it easier because they are straight. But saying it is "privilege" is not the best way to convey that. It is better to say the world treat you differently because you are gay. It takes the burden off of the person you are speaking with and does not impart fault to them. Calling them privileged does the opposite and makes it seem like they are part of the problem. We're not using the words to describe allies. It's in response to people who say they don't like having "the gay" shoved in their faces. Those people aren't allies. Those are people who feel entitled to have only heterosexuality portrayed. And, with regards to their orientation, yeah they are carefree and and have never experienced a problem. You'll forgive us for not being too worried that the word "privileged" makes a coddled straight person feel uncomfortable. How about me, who is totally comfortable, but still hates the word with the fire of a nova? Calling someone a "privileged white person" has the same affect as me calling someone "A typical angry black man". No matter what grain of truth there is in the statement, it is still aggressive and insulting to everyone in that demographic. There is no way I hear that phrase and side with the person who said it. It is a shitty way to argue the point and only serves to alienate everyone in that demographic. Do you feel entitled to only have heterosexuals displayed in the media and do you feel that any representation of homosexuality is "shoving it in your face?" If yes, then you are privileged and idc if you're insulted cause you lack perspective and are kinda a dick. If no, then you are not privileged and you shouldn't be getting bent out of shape about that word because no one is using it to describe you. I don't are what characters are on screen and only want good writing and TV. And if you are using the phrase as an insult, then call it and insult. Don't use some argument to justify why a straight person is privileged, because you end up roping in the people who totally support gays and insulting them too. In short, just call the guy a douche and move on. Or just call him a typical privileged straight asshole, so everyone knows you are insulting him and not all straight people. You're being insulted by a word that doesn't even apply to you. I...don't really know how to help you. Dude, it doesn't matter if you are privileged and aware of it, or privileged and ignorant, if you are an english speaking, white, male, heterosexual, you are privileged. You lead a privileged life, and being aware of it doesn't stop it being the case, the word -does- apply to him, and it -does- apply to me, and it -does- apply to a lot of other people who are on -your side- of the debate. Read what he is saying again. So then why is it an insult? Why are they taking offense to it? Privileged implies that due to factors I cannot control, I am ignorant. No one likes to be called ignorant. It is a term that divides, not unifies. It puts the person being called privileged on the defense, and turns a potentially constructive discussion into a zero sum argument. But...you are ignorant. None of a heterosexual's life experiences regarding their orientation equate to those of a gay man. You are ignorant of a gay man's experiences regarding their orientation. You are actually being offended by a simple and obvious fact. If that puts you on the defensive then you probably weren't that far from defensive to begin with.
Fuck me right? You don't win people over or persuade them by calling them ignorant. That's the problem with privilege: with any other topic, if I don't know it, I can learn it (such as math, science etc). But since I'm straight, I'm automatically privileged and I will, in your words, always remain ignorant due to my orientation. Understanding others naturally leads to tolerance, but these ideas of privilege push people away.
How can I understand you if you push me away and call me ignorant?
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On June 25 2013 06:59 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 06:52 Klondikebar wrote:On June 25 2013 06:48 Bagration wrote:On June 25 2013 06:39 Klondikebar wrote:On June 25 2013 06:36 Raneth wrote:On June 25 2013 06:25 Klondikebar wrote:On June 25 2013 06:24 Plansix wrote:On June 25 2013 06:19 Klondikebar wrote:On June 25 2013 06:17 Plansix wrote:On June 25 2013 06:09 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
We're not using the words to describe allies. It's in response to people who say they don't like having "the gay" shoved in their faces. Those people aren't allies. Those are people who feel entitled to have only heterosexuality portrayed. And, with regards to their orientation, yeah they are carefree and and have never experienced a problem.
You'll forgive us for not being too worried that the word "privileged" makes a coddled straight person feel uncomfortable. How about me, who is totally comfortable, but still hates the word with the fire of a nova? Calling someone a "privileged white person" has the same affect as me calling someone "A typical angry black man". No matter what grain of truth there is in the statement, it is still aggressive and insulting to everyone in that demographic. There is no way I hear that phrase and side with the person who said it. It is a shitty way to argue the point and only serves to alienate everyone in that demographic. Do you feel entitled to only have heterosexuals displayed in the media and do you feel that any representation of homosexuality is "shoving it in your face?" If yes, then you are privileged and idc if you're insulted cause you lack perspective and are kinda a dick. If no, then you are not privileged and you shouldn't be getting bent out of shape about that word because no one is using it to describe you. I don't are what characters are on screen and only want good writing and TV. And if you are using the phrase as an insult, then call it and insult. Don't use some argument to justify why a straight person is privileged, because you end up roping in the people who totally support gays and insulting them too. In short, just call the guy a douche and move on. Or just call him a typical privileged straight asshole, so everyone knows you are insulting him and not all straight people. You're being insulted by a word that doesn't even apply to you. I...don't really know how to help you. Dude, it doesn't matter if you are privileged and aware of it, or privileged and ignorant, if you are an english speaking, white, male, heterosexual, you are privileged. You lead a privileged life, and being aware of it doesn't stop it being the case, the word -does- apply to him, and it -does- apply to me, and it -does- apply to a lot of other people who are on -your side- of the debate. Read what he is saying again. So then why is it an insult? Why are they taking offense to it? Privileged implies that due to factors I cannot control, I am ignorant. No one likes to be called ignorant. It is a term that divides, not unifies. It puts the person being called privileged on the defense, and turns a potentially constructive discussion into a zero sum argument. But...you are ignorant. None of a heterosexual's life experiences regarding their orientation equate to those of a gay man. You are ignorant of a gay man's experiences regarding their orientation. You are actually being offended by a simple and obvious fact. If that puts you on the defensive then you probably weren't that far from defensive to begin with. Fuck me right? You don't win people over or persuade them by calling them ignorant. That's the problem with privilege: with any other topic, if I don't know it, I can learn it (such as math, science etc). But since I'm straight, I'm automatically privileged and I will, in your words, always remain ignorant due to my orientation. Understanding others naturally leads to tolerance, but these ideas of privilege push people away. How can I understand you if you push me away and call me ignorant?
But like...you're ignorant of PhD level nuclear physics but would you take that as an insult if I said that to you? And ok fine you can't learn what it's like to be gay but you can listen to a gay man describe his experiences and attempt to have some sympathy,
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I don't really agree with calling people privileged, because the statement is too general. Though saying that some people have more or different privilege regarding certain aspect of their life is true.
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On June 25 2013 06:44 zdfgucker wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 06:24 KwarK wrote:On June 25 2013 06:23 zdfgucker wrote:
Sigh.. I dislike the way TL is changing. This used to be a gaming site, can't we just keep it that way? I don't care about gay people, I hate everyone equally based on their character (a metric fuckton).
At this rate I will choose to remove the general forums from my sidebar. I come here for dota, not politics, sexuality nor any other non-issues. Comes here for dota, talks about how things used to be. Kid please. You know nothing. I came here for a link for Testie vs Bisu in WCG (?). Stayed for BW streams and then SC2; the latter is a disgrace and now I watch and play dota2 and can occasionally check how fast SC2 is dying. I've been using TL for longer than most people. Edit: 2007, ogn restream on SC2.org it was. Kid please.
KID PLEASE
man, you don't even have +...
+ Show Spoiler +
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Good job TL. I can't even understand how this is still an issue in this day and age. Human beings are simultaneously amazing and disgusting. People should love who they want to love. Give them all the benefits you would give a "normal" couple/family. It's not that fucking hard.
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On June 25 2013 07:01 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 06:59 Bagration wrote:On June 25 2013 06:52 Klondikebar wrote:On June 25 2013 06:48 Bagration wrote:On June 25 2013 06:39 Klondikebar wrote:On June 25 2013 06:36 Raneth wrote:On June 25 2013 06:25 Klondikebar wrote:On June 25 2013 06:24 Plansix wrote:On June 25 2013 06:19 Klondikebar wrote:On June 25 2013 06:17 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
How about me, who is totally comfortable, but still hates the word with the fire of a nova?
Calling someone a "privileged white person" has the same affect as me calling someone "A typical angry black man". No matter what grain of truth there is in the statement, it is still aggressive and insulting to everyone in that demographic. There is no way I hear that phrase and side with the person who said it. It is a shitty way to argue the point and only serves to alienate everyone in that demographic. Do you feel entitled to only have heterosexuals displayed in the media and do you feel that any representation of homosexuality is "shoving it in your face?" If yes, then you are privileged and idc if you're insulted cause you lack perspective and are kinda a dick. If no, then you are not privileged and you shouldn't be getting bent out of shape about that word because no one is using it to describe you. I don't are what characters are on screen and only want good writing and TV. And if you are using the phrase as an insult, then call it and insult. Don't use some argument to justify why a straight person is privileged, because you end up roping in the people who totally support gays and insulting them too. In short, just call the guy a douche and move on. Or just call him a typical privileged straight asshole, so everyone knows you are insulting him and not all straight people. You're being insulted by a word that doesn't even apply to you. I...don't really know how to help you. Dude, it doesn't matter if you are privileged and aware of it, or privileged and ignorant, if you are an english speaking, white, male, heterosexual, you are privileged. You lead a privileged life, and being aware of it doesn't stop it being the case, the word -does- apply to him, and it -does- apply to me, and it -does- apply to a lot of other people who are on -your side- of the debate. Read what he is saying again. So then why is it an insult? Why are they taking offense to it? Privileged implies that due to factors I cannot control, I am ignorant. No one likes to be called ignorant. It is a term that divides, not unifies. It puts the person being called privileged on the defense, and turns a potentially constructive discussion into a zero sum argument. But...you are ignorant. None of a heterosexual's life experiences regarding their orientation equate to those of a gay man. You are ignorant of a gay man's experiences regarding their orientation. You are actually being offended by a simple and obvious fact. If that puts you on the defensive then you probably weren't that far from defensive to begin with. Fuck me right? You don't win people over or persuade them by calling them ignorant. That's the problem with privilege: with any other topic, if I don't know it, I can learn it (such as math, science etc). But since I'm straight, I'm automatically privileged and I will, in your words, always remain ignorant due to my orientation. Understanding others naturally leads to tolerance, but these ideas of privilege push people away. How can I understand you if you push me away and call me ignorant? But like...you're ignorant of PhD level nuclear physics but would you take that as an insult if I said that to you?
But that doesn't he is unable to empathize with a person who has a PhD in nuclear physics. You could empathize with the workload involved with getting a PhD to your own life experience; nor does being born a white straight kid doesn't mean you can't empathize with a gay person. The idea of being bullied is universal no matter the reason; so is the idea of love, feelings, social relationships, work, etc etc.
Using the word privileged pretty much is straight up assuming that the person has in no way, and never will ever be able to empathize with another group's struggle because he or she was never born in that group. Which is a load of shit.
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On June 25 2013 06:59 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 06:52 Klondikebar wrote:On June 25 2013 06:48 Bagration wrote:On June 25 2013 06:39 Klondikebar wrote:On June 25 2013 06:36 Raneth wrote:On June 25 2013 06:25 Klondikebar wrote:On June 25 2013 06:24 Plansix wrote:On June 25 2013 06:19 Klondikebar wrote:On June 25 2013 06:17 Plansix wrote:On June 25 2013 06:09 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
We're not using the words to describe allies. It's in response to people who say they don't like having "the gay" shoved in their faces. Those people aren't allies. Those are people who feel entitled to have only heterosexuality portrayed. And, with regards to their orientation, yeah they are carefree and and have never experienced a problem.
You'll forgive us for not being too worried that the word "privileged" makes a coddled straight person feel uncomfortable. How about me, who is totally comfortable, but still hates the word with the fire of a nova? Calling someone a "privileged white person" has the same affect as me calling someone "A typical angry black man". No matter what grain of truth there is in the statement, it is still aggressive and insulting to everyone in that demographic. There is no way I hear that phrase and side with the person who said it. It is a shitty way to argue the point and only serves to alienate everyone in that demographic. Do you feel entitled to only have heterosexuals displayed in the media and do you feel that any representation of homosexuality is "shoving it in your face?" If yes, then you are privileged and idc if you're insulted cause you lack perspective and are kinda a dick. If no, then you are not privileged and you shouldn't be getting bent out of shape about that word because no one is using it to describe you. I don't are what characters are on screen and only want good writing and TV. And if you are using the phrase as an insult, then call it and insult. Don't use some argument to justify why a straight person is privileged, because you end up roping in the people who totally support gays and insulting them too. In short, just call the guy a douche and move on. Or just call him a typical privileged straight asshole, so everyone knows you are insulting him and not all straight people. You're being insulted by a word that doesn't even apply to you. I...don't really know how to help you. Dude, it doesn't matter if you are privileged and aware of it, or privileged and ignorant, if you are an english speaking, white, male, heterosexual, you are privileged. You lead a privileged life, and being aware of it doesn't stop it being the case, the word -does- apply to him, and it -does- apply to me, and it -does- apply to a lot of other people who are on -your side- of the debate. Read what he is saying again. So then why is it an insult? Why are they taking offense to it? Privileged implies that due to factors I cannot control, I am ignorant. No one likes to be called ignorant. It is a term that divides, not unifies. It puts the person being called privileged on the defense, and turns a potentially constructive discussion into a zero sum argument. But...you are ignorant. None of a heterosexual's life experiences regarding their orientation equate to those of a gay man. You are ignorant of a gay man's experiences regarding their orientation. You are actually being offended by a simple and obvious fact. If that puts you on the defensive then you probably weren't that far from defensive to begin with. Fuck me right? You don't win people over or persuade them by calling them ignorant. That's the problem with privilege: with any other topic, if I don't know it, I can learn it (such as math, science etc). But since I'm straight, I'm automatically privileged and I will, in your words, always remain ignorant due to my orientation. Understanding others naturally leads to tolerance, but these ideas of privilege push people away. How can I understand you if you push me away and call me ignorant?
Being privileged doesn't mean that you will always be ignorant. It just means that you have more difficulty seeing what other people experience. If someone points this out to you and you say, "Wow, I never really thought about it that way" then you've learned something and you're no longer ignorant.
Or, on the other hand, you could say, "I'm offended by the fact that you called me privileged. This is not the way to win allies! Here is what you gay people should do to convince people like us..." Then you dodged the point, and probably remain ignorant.
Most everyone has privilege. This isn't the bad thing. The bad thing is being willfully ignorant. Awareness makes a difference. There's nothing in the word privilege that says you can't understand the plight of others. Nothing. All it means is that you have more difficulty seeing it, because it doesn't affect you.
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I have no problems with gay people except the flaming ones who feel the need to shove it in your face, also the ones who feel the need to talk "gay". Can't you just act normal and keep your sexuality to yourself?
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On June 25 2013 06:59 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 06:52 Klondikebar wrote:On June 25 2013 06:48 Bagration wrote:On June 25 2013 06:39 Klondikebar wrote:On June 25 2013 06:36 Raneth wrote:On June 25 2013 06:25 Klondikebar wrote:On June 25 2013 06:24 Plansix wrote:On June 25 2013 06:19 Klondikebar wrote:On June 25 2013 06:17 Plansix wrote:On June 25 2013 06:09 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
We're not using the words to describe allies. It's in response to people who say they don't like having "the gay" shoved in their faces. Those people aren't allies. Those are people who feel entitled to have only heterosexuality portrayed. And, with regards to their orientation, yeah they are carefree and and have never experienced a problem.
You'll forgive us for not being too worried that the word "privileged" makes a coddled straight person feel uncomfortable. How about me, who is totally comfortable, but still hates the word with the fire of a nova? Calling someone a "privileged white person" has the same affect as me calling someone "A typical angry black man". No matter what grain of truth there is in the statement, it is still aggressive and insulting to everyone in that demographic. There is no way I hear that phrase and side with the person who said it. It is a shitty way to argue the point and only serves to alienate everyone in that demographic. Do you feel entitled to only have heterosexuals displayed in the media and do you feel that any representation of homosexuality is "shoving it in your face?" If yes, then you are privileged and idc if you're insulted cause you lack perspective and are kinda a dick. If no, then you are not privileged and you shouldn't be getting bent out of shape about that word because no one is using it to describe you. I don't are what characters are on screen and only want good writing and TV. And if you are using the phrase as an insult, then call it and insult. Don't use some argument to justify why a straight person is privileged, because you end up roping in the people who totally support gays and insulting them too. In short, just call the guy a douche and move on. Or just call him a typical privileged straight asshole, so everyone knows you are insulting him and not all straight people. You're being insulted by a word that doesn't even apply to you. I...don't really know how to help you. Dude, it doesn't matter if you are privileged and aware of it, or privileged and ignorant, if you are an english speaking, white, male, heterosexual, you are privileged. You lead a privileged life, and being aware of it doesn't stop it being the case, the word -does- apply to him, and it -does- apply to me, and it -does- apply to a lot of other people who are on -your side- of the debate. Read what he is saying again. So then why is it an insult? Why are they taking offense to it? Privileged implies that due to factors I cannot control, I am ignorant. No one likes to be called ignorant. It is a term that divides, not unifies. It puts the person being called privileged on the defense, and turns a potentially constructive discussion into a zero sum argument. But...you are ignorant. None of a heterosexual's life experiences regarding their orientation equate to those of a gay man. You are ignorant of a gay man's experiences regarding their orientation. You are actually being offended by a simple and obvious fact. If that puts you on the defensive then you probably weren't that far from defensive to begin with. Fuck me right? You don't win people over or persuade them by calling them ignorant. That's the problem with privilege: with any other topic, if I don't know it, I can learn it (such as math, science etc). But since I'm straight, I'm automatically privileged and I will, in your words, always remain ignorant due to my orientation. Understanding others naturally leads to tolerance, but these ideas of privilege push people away. How can I understand you if you push me away and call me ignorant?
Ignorant just mean that you're not aware or uneducated on a subject, this is not purely an insult.
Now, like I said, I wouldn't call you privileged, but I would say that you have certain privilege for being straight and cis that homosexual and transgender don't have. You're not privileged in every sens of the word, obviously.
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EPT
