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On April 17 2012 03:34 Jojo131 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 03:11 Angel_ wrote:On April 16 2012 23:02 Kiichol wrote:
I can understand why people with serious medical illnesses or handicaps could want to commit suicide or die.
I can understand why people who have to struggle immensely every day just to get food and shelter could wish to die.
I can understand why old people who may have just had enough of life and care not for waiting for death to take them wish to die.
But I cannot for the life of me understand people who commit suicide when they live relatively comfortable lives and still have decades to live for. No amount of emotional turmoil should lead one to thinking death is an option. It's not rational thinking. No one knows what happens when you die (despite what religious institutions may tell you). The only thing we do know is that death is eternal. So live now, while you still can. What have you got to lose? Death will find you eventually. Why rush it? When babies aren't loved they spontaneously die. Adolescents and young adults are no different. In general, people that have support systems (that they feel exist), and people that have anything that loves them (that they feel loves them) don't kill themselves. "Rational" doesn't remotely factor in to anything. And frankly, the idea that emotional turmoil can't be bad enough that someone could consider death is just...ignorant, really. You're not taking the whole argument into consideration. Rational does factor into things because there are other people who dont even have the bare necessities that another person considering suicide may have. Therefore I would argue that it is ignorant and even disrespectful to not appreciate your "crappy" life when someone else (for example here in the Philippines) would love to have it in exchange for their's.
And it is ignorant to assume that the crappiness they feel has anything to do with external reality. There is disconnect between reality and their perception of it, that is why it is mental illness. They feel shitty because their brain makes them so, there is no rational contemplation of circumstances. And do not believe for a second anyone in Philippines would want the whole package, because the whole package means suicide.
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On April 17 2012 04:40 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 03:34 Jojo131 wrote:On April 17 2012 03:11 Angel_ wrote:On April 16 2012 23:02 Kiichol wrote:
I can understand why people with serious medical illnesses or handicaps could want to commit suicide or die.
I can understand why people who have to struggle immensely every day just to get food and shelter could wish to die.
I can understand why old people who may have just had enough of life and care not for waiting for death to take them wish to die.
But I cannot for the life of me understand people who commit suicide when they live relatively comfortable lives and still have decades to live for. No amount of emotional turmoil should lead one to thinking death is an option. It's not rational thinking. No one knows what happens when you die (despite what religious institutions may tell you). The only thing we do know is that death is eternal. So live now, while you still can. What have you got to lose? Death will find you eventually. Why rush it? When babies aren't loved they spontaneously die. Adolescents and young adults are no different. In general, people that have support systems (that they feel exist), and people that have anything that loves them (that they feel loves them) don't kill themselves. "Rational" doesn't remotely factor in to anything. And frankly, the idea that emotional turmoil can't be bad enough that someone could consider death is just...ignorant, really. You're not taking the whole argument into consideration. Rational does factor into things because there are other people who dont even have the bare necessities that another person considering suicide may have. Therefore I would argue that it is ignorant and even disrespectful to not appreciate your "crappy" life when someone else (for example here in the Philippines) would love to have it in exchange for their's. And it is ignorant to assume that the crappiness they feel has anything to do with external reality. There is disconnect between reality and their perception of it, that is why it is mental illness. They feel shitty because their brain makes them so, there is no rational contemplation of circumstances. And do not believe for a second anyone in Philippines would want the whole package, because the whole package means suicide.
Do you really mean to suggest that reality has no barring on our mental state? None?
Its also 3:44am, enough TOK for me, I'm going to bed.
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On April 17 2012 04:08 Jojo131 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 04:05 Alay wrote:On April 17 2012 04:01 Jojo131 wrote:On April 17 2012 03:55 shinosai wrote:On April 17 2012 03:45 Jojo131 wrote:On April 17 2012 03:37 shinosai wrote:On April 17 2012 02:21 Jojo131 wrote:On April 17 2012 02:07 Barburas wrote:On April 17 2012 01:48 Jojo131 wrote:On April 17 2012 01:41 mcc wrote:
[quote]
Yes there are people who deal with them and there are those who do not deal with it. And rarely is the difference in some strength of character or something. There is nothing free about decision to kill yourself or not in a lot of cases. All of that is nicely predetermined by the condition they are suffering from and their brains. The only thing that can change how it will end is outside pressure : drugs, other people's influence, ... . Are you also going to say about those who die of cancer that they are weak, because there are others that did not die from the same cancer ? Terminal illness like cancer =/= Emotional mental illness, why did you even compare the two? If someone didn't die of a certain cancer, I'd call that a miracle. Except they really are of similar severities, it's just peoples perception of depression is often very different to physical diseases which are more easily tangible. There's often a suggestion that people should just "get over it" or they're being lazy or something like that, but that's not how depression works. While I dont disagree with that notion, there are also people who commit suicide out of general unhappiness with what they have without consideration of people who live in worse conditions. That was my main/initial point for this topic, and why I still think there is room to criticize some suicide cases. This is the most moronic argument I have ever come across in the discussion of suicide. And yet it keeps popping up again and again, almost as if it wishes to let it's stupidity become more well known. An analogy: If you lose a leg, you ought not to complain, because there are people in the world that have lost both legs. While it may be comforting to you that there is always someone else in the world suffering more than you are, that in itself does not take away from any of the suffering you experience. This is the grand mistake that you continue to make over and over again. Some sort of weird presumption that thinking about others who suffer more than you somehow magically can decrease your own suffering. It doesn't. I dont think I was very clear. The point is not to decrease one's suffering, or to say that one should not complain. It is to give them a reason to keep living and to know that there are people worse off that you can help (purpose?). That is a way of how you prevent suicide. Also you might want to calm a bit. It's a highly ineffective way at preventing suicide, if that was your goal. All it tends to do is piss people off, because what you're essentially doing is downplaying the person's pain by telling them it's not that bad (look at other people! they're okay) without actually addressing their pain. It's pretentious, insensitive, and quite frankly pathetic. Well, what would be your alternative? Unless you want to babysit every unhappy person. Also, it's not like I'm insensitive to the issue but if you're looking for a solution then you obviously have to make some valued/weighed decisions. By your tone you make it seem like I've never, in my own private time, evaluated the views of others. A hug and an "I care, and I'll listen, no matter what" tends to work pretty well--or at least a hell of a lot better than a "suck it up, it could be worse! Your pain is invalid!" While I agree that would be ideal, you're talking about someone else's time (and care) that may not be available for every unhappy person in the world.
They are not unhappy. That is completely understating it.
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On April 17 2012 04:43 Jojo131 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 04:40 mcc wrote:On April 17 2012 03:34 Jojo131 wrote:On April 17 2012 03:11 Angel_ wrote:On April 16 2012 23:02 Kiichol wrote:
I can understand why people with serious medical illnesses or handicaps could want to commit suicide or die.
I can understand why people who have to struggle immensely every day just to get food and shelter could wish to die.
I can understand why old people who may have just had enough of life and care not for waiting for death to take them wish to die.
But I cannot for the life of me understand people who commit suicide when they live relatively comfortable lives and still have decades to live for. No amount of emotional turmoil should lead one to thinking death is an option. It's not rational thinking. No one knows what happens when you die (despite what religious institutions may tell you). The only thing we do know is that death is eternal. So live now, while you still can. What have you got to lose? Death will find you eventually. Why rush it? When babies aren't loved they spontaneously die. Adolescents and young adults are no different. In general, people that have support systems (that they feel exist), and people that have anything that loves them (that they feel loves them) don't kill themselves. "Rational" doesn't remotely factor in to anything. And frankly, the idea that emotional turmoil can't be bad enough that someone could consider death is just...ignorant, really. You're not taking the whole argument into consideration. Rational does factor into things because there are other people who dont even have the bare necessities that another person considering suicide may have. Therefore I would argue that it is ignorant and even disrespectful to not appreciate your "crappy" life when someone else (for example here in the Philippines) would love to have it in exchange for their's. And it is ignorant to assume that the crappiness they feel has anything to do with external reality. There is disconnect between reality and their perception of it, that is why it is mental illness. They feel shitty because their brain makes them so, there is no rational contemplation of circumstances. And do not believe for a second anyone in Philippines would want the whole package, because the whole package means suicide. Do you really mean to suggest that reality has no barring on our mental state? None? Its also 3:44am, enough TOK for me, I'm going to bed.
That was exaggeration, depends on their condition, it is a continuous spectrum. In some cases it is basically non-existent.
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On April 17 2012 04:40 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 03:34 Jojo131 wrote:On April 17 2012 03:11 Angel_ wrote:On April 16 2012 23:02 Kiichol wrote:
I can understand why people with serious medical illnesses or handicaps could want to commit suicide or die.
I can understand why people who have to struggle immensely every day just to get food and shelter could wish to die.
I can understand why old people who may have just had enough of life and care not for waiting for death to take them wish to die.
But I cannot for the life of me understand people who commit suicide when they live relatively comfortable lives and still have decades to live for. No amount of emotional turmoil should lead one to thinking death is an option. It's not rational thinking. No one knows what happens when you die (despite what religious institutions may tell you). The only thing we do know is that death is eternal. So live now, while you still can. What have you got to lose? Death will find you eventually. Why rush it? When babies aren't loved they spontaneously die. Adolescents and young adults are no different. In general, people that have support systems (that they feel exist), and people that have anything that loves them (that they feel loves them) don't kill themselves. "Rational" doesn't remotely factor in to anything. And frankly, the idea that emotional turmoil can't be bad enough that someone could consider death is just...ignorant, really. You're not taking the whole argument into consideration. Rational does factor into things because there are other people who dont even have the bare necessities that another person considering suicide may have. Therefore I would argue that it is ignorant and even disrespectful to not appreciate your "crappy" life when someone else (for example here in the Philippines) would love to have it in exchange for their's. And it is ignorant to assume that the crappiness they feel has anything to do with external reality. There is disconnect between reality and their perception of it, that is why it is mental illness. They feel shitty because their brain makes them so, there is no rational contemplation of circumstances. And do not believe for a second anyone in Philippines would want the whole package, because the whole package means suicide.
go talk to a torture or rape victim or someone whos child/spouse/whatever got brutally murdered, someone who's lost everything financially and as a result lost everyone who they thought loved them, someone who has lost all of their dignity and pride battling cancer, and tell them that their emotions had nothing to do with their reality, it was just their perception of reality that was flawed. I would LOVE to see what their response would be.
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On April 17 2012 04:48 Rice wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 04:40 mcc wrote:On April 17 2012 03:34 Jojo131 wrote:On April 17 2012 03:11 Angel_ wrote:On April 16 2012 23:02 Kiichol wrote:
I can understand why people with serious medical illnesses or handicaps could want to commit suicide or die.
I can understand why people who have to struggle immensely every day just to get food and shelter could wish to die.
I can understand why old people who may have just had enough of life and care not for waiting for death to take them wish to die.
But I cannot for the life of me understand people who commit suicide when they live relatively comfortable lives and still have decades to live for. No amount of emotional turmoil should lead one to thinking death is an option. It's not rational thinking. No one knows what happens when you die (despite what religious institutions may tell you). The only thing we do know is that death is eternal. So live now, while you still can. What have you got to lose? Death will find you eventually. Why rush it? When babies aren't loved they spontaneously die. Adolescents and young adults are no different. In general, people that have support systems (that they feel exist), and people that have anything that loves them (that they feel loves them) don't kill themselves. "Rational" doesn't remotely factor in to anything. And frankly, the idea that emotional turmoil can't be bad enough that someone could consider death is just...ignorant, really. You're not taking the whole argument into consideration. Rational does factor into things because there are other people who dont even have the bare necessities that another person considering suicide may have. Therefore I would argue that it is ignorant and even disrespectful to not appreciate your "crappy" life when someone else (for example here in the Philippines) would love to have it in exchange for their's. And it is ignorant to assume that the crappiness they feel has anything to do with external reality. There is disconnect between reality and their perception of it, that is why it is mental illness. They feel shitty because their brain makes them so, there is no rational contemplation of circumstances. And do not believe for a second anyone in Philippines would want the whole package, because the whole package means suicide. go talk to a torture or rape victim or someone whos child/spouse/whatever got brutally murdered, someone who's lost everything financially and as a result lost everyone who they thought loved them, someone who has lost all of their dignity and pride battling cancer, and tell them that their emotions had nothing to do with their reality, it was just their perception of reality that was flawed, I would LOVE to see what their response would be.
What are you talking about ? I am talking about people committing suicide due to mental illness, none of the cases you mention falls into that category.
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On April 17 2012 04:52 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 04:48 Rice wrote:On April 17 2012 04:40 mcc wrote:On April 17 2012 03:34 Jojo131 wrote:On April 17 2012 03:11 Angel_ wrote:On April 16 2012 23:02 Kiichol wrote:
I can understand why people with serious medical illnesses or handicaps could want to commit suicide or die.
I can understand why people who have to struggle immensely every day just to get food and shelter could wish to die.
I can understand why old people who may have just had enough of life and care not for waiting for death to take them wish to die.
But I cannot for the life of me understand people who commit suicide when they live relatively comfortable lives and still have decades to live for. No amount of emotional turmoil should lead one to thinking death is an option. It's not rational thinking. No one knows what happens when you die (despite what religious institutions may tell you). The only thing we do know is that death is eternal. So live now, while you still can. What have you got to lose? Death will find you eventually. Why rush it? When babies aren't loved they spontaneously die. Adolescents and young adults are no different. In general, people that have support systems (that they feel exist), and people that have anything that loves them (that they feel loves them) don't kill themselves. "Rational" doesn't remotely factor in to anything. And frankly, the idea that emotional turmoil can't be bad enough that someone could consider death is just...ignorant, really. You're not taking the whole argument into consideration. Rational does factor into things because there are other people who dont even have the bare necessities that another person considering suicide may have. Therefore I would argue that it is ignorant and even disrespectful to not appreciate your "crappy" life when someone else (for example here in the Philippines) would love to have it in exchange for their's. And it is ignorant to assume that the crappiness they feel has anything to do with external reality. There is disconnect between reality and their perception of it, that is why it is mental illness. They feel shitty because their brain makes them so, there is no rational contemplation of circumstances. And do not believe for a second anyone in Philippines would want the whole package, because the whole package means suicide. go talk to a torture or rape victim or someone whos child/spouse/whatever got brutally murdered, someone who's lost everything financially and as a result lost everyone who they thought loved them, someone who has lost all of their dignity and pride battling cancer, and tell them that their emotions had nothing to do with their reality, it was just their perception of reality that was flawed, I would LOVE to see what their response would be. What are you talking about ? I am talking about people committing suicide due to mental illness, none of the cases you mention falls into that category.
Couldn't PTSD resulting from one of those situations be considered a mental illness?
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On April 17 2012 04:52 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 04:48 Rice wrote:On April 17 2012 04:40 mcc wrote:On April 17 2012 03:34 Jojo131 wrote:On April 17 2012 03:11 Angel_ wrote:On April 16 2012 23:02 Kiichol wrote:
I can understand why people with serious medical illnesses or handicaps could want to commit suicide or die.
I can understand why people who have to struggle immensely every day just to get food and shelter could wish to die.
I can understand why old people who may have just had enough of life and care not for waiting for death to take them wish to die.
But I cannot for the life of me understand people who commit suicide when they live relatively comfortable lives and still have decades to live for. No amount of emotional turmoil should lead one to thinking death is an option. It's not rational thinking. No one knows what happens when you die (despite what religious institutions may tell you). The only thing we do know is that death is eternal. So live now, while you still can. What have you got to lose? Death will find you eventually. Why rush it? When babies aren't loved they spontaneously die. Adolescents and young adults are no different. In general, people that have support systems (that they feel exist), and people that have anything that loves them (that they feel loves them) don't kill themselves. "Rational" doesn't remotely factor in to anything. And frankly, the idea that emotional turmoil can't be bad enough that someone could consider death is just...ignorant, really. You're not taking the whole argument into consideration. Rational does factor into things because there are other people who dont even have the bare necessities that another person considering suicide may have. Therefore I would argue that it is ignorant and even disrespectful to not appreciate your "crappy" life when someone else (for example here in the Philippines) would love to have it in exchange for their's. And it is ignorant to assume that the crappiness they feel has anything to do with external reality. There is disconnect between reality and their perception of it, that is why it is mental illness. They feel shitty because their brain makes them so, there is no rational contemplation of circumstances. And do not believe for a second anyone in Philippines would want the whole package, because the whole package means suicide. go talk to a torture or rape victim or someone whos child/spouse/whatever got brutally murdered, someone who's lost everything financially and as a result lost everyone who they thought loved them, someone who has lost all of their dignity and pride battling cancer, and tell them that their emotions had nothing to do with their reality, it was just their perception of reality that was flawed, I would LOVE to see what their response would be. What are you talking about ? I am talking about people committing suicide due to mental illness, none of the cases you mention falls into that category.
my mistake, I should've actually read the nested quotes... In response to those, "relatively comfortable life" is completely subjective. I've seen homeless people in complete poverty who are happy as can be, happiness can't just be measured by material objects such as food/clothing/shelter. People can have everything in the world going for them and still feel like they have nothing, obviously the situation is more than a simple issue of what's logical and what isn't.
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On April 17 2012 04:48 Rice wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 04:40 mcc wrote:On April 17 2012 03:34 Jojo131 wrote:On April 17 2012 03:11 Angel_ wrote:On April 16 2012 23:02 Kiichol wrote:
I can understand why people with serious medical illnesses or handicaps could want to commit suicide or die.
I can understand why people who have to struggle immensely every day just to get food and shelter could wish to die.
I can understand why old people who may have just had enough of life and care not for waiting for death to take them wish to die.
But I cannot for the life of me understand people who commit suicide when they live relatively comfortable lives and still have decades to live for. No amount of emotional turmoil should lead one to thinking death is an option. It's not rational thinking. No one knows what happens when you die (despite what religious institutions may tell you). The only thing we do know is that death is eternal. So live now, while you still can. What have you got to lose? Death will find you eventually. Why rush it? When babies aren't loved they spontaneously die. Adolescents and young adults are no different. In general, people that have support systems (that they feel exist), and people that have anything that loves them (that they feel loves them) don't kill themselves. "Rational" doesn't remotely factor in to anything. And frankly, the idea that emotional turmoil can't be bad enough that someone could consider death is just...ignorant, really. You're not taking the whole argument into consideration. Rational does factor into things because there are other people who dont even have the bare necessities that another person considering suicide may have. Therefore I would argue that it is ignorant and even disrespectful to not appreciate your "crappy" life when someone else (for example here in the Philippines) would love to have it in exchange for their's. And it is ignorant to assume that the crappiness they feel has anything to do with external reality. There is disconnect between reality and their perception of it, that is why it is mental illness. They feel shitty because their brain makes them so, there is no rational contemplation of circumstances. And do not believe for a second anyone in Philippines would want the whole package, because the whole package means suicide. go talk to a torture or rape victim or someone whos child/spouse/whatever got brutally murdered, someone who's lost everything financially and as a result lost everyone who they thought loved them, someone who has lost all of their dignity and pride battling cancer, and tell them that their emotions had nothing to do with their reality, it was just their perception of reality that was flawed. I would LOVE to see what their response would be.
"wrong to assume the crappiness they feel has anything to do with external reality" does not mean "none have to do with external factors".
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On April 17 2012 04:52 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 04:48 Rice wrote:On April 17 2012 04:40 mcc wrote:On April 17 2012 03:34 Jojo131 wrote:On April 17 2012 03:11 Angel_ wrote:On April 16 2012 23:02 Kiichol wrote:
I can understand why people with serious medical illnesses or handicaps could want to commit suicide or die.
I can understand why people who have to struggle immensely every day just to get food and shelter could wish to die.
I can understand why old people who may have just had enough of life and care not for waiting for death to take them wish to die.
But I cannot for the life of me understand people who commit suicide when they live relatively comfortable lives and still have decades to live for. No amount of emotional turmoil should lead one to thinking death is an option. It's not rational thinking. No one knows what happens when you die (despite what religious institutions may tell you). The only thing we do know is that death is eternal. So live now, while you still can. What have you got to lose? Death will find you eventually. Why rush it? When babies aren't loved they spontaneously die. Adolescents and young adults are no different. In general, people that have support systems (that they feel exist), and people that have anything that loves them (that they feel loves them) don't kill themselves. "Rational" doesn't remotely factor in to anything. And frankly, the idea that emotional turmoil can't be bad enough that someone could consider death is just...ignorant, really. You're not taking the whole argument into consideration. Rational does factor into things because there are other people who dont even have the bare necessities that another person considering suicide may have. Therefore I would argue that it is ignorant and even disrespectful to not appreciate your "crappy" life when someone else (for example here in the Philippines) would love to have it in exchange for their's. And it is ignorant to assume that the crappiness they feel has anything to do with external reality. There is disconnect between reality and their perception of it, that is why it is mental illness. They feel shitty because their brain makes them so, there is no rational contemplation of circumstances. And do not believe for a second anyone in Philippines would want the whole package, because the whole package means suicide. go talk to a torture or rape victim or someone whos child/spouse/whatever got brutally murdered, someone who's lost everything financially and as a result lost everyone who they thought loved them, someone who has lost all of their dignity and pride battling cancer, and tell them that their emotions had nothing to do with their reality, it was just their perception of reality that was flawed, I would LOVE to see what their response would be. What are you talking about ? I am talking about people committing suicide due to mental illness, none of the cases you mention falls into that category.
Let me take a wild guess here. You actually don't have any idea what a mental illness is and which types of these are out there, do you? Or why would you just disregard the numerous disorders in which the patient clearly is connected to reality and responds to it?
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On April 17 2012 03:49 Angel_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 03:45 Cor_Malek wrote:Lately I've been reading a book on suicidology, named with oh so much finesse: "Suicidology". Problem is, I had to read it in a library, they don't lend it. It also was in magazine, so I had to ask one librarian for it, another processed it and it was brought to me by third - possibly an inside joke of Universe (so all 3 librarians knew what I was reading, I was one of 2 people there at the time). Tragic as the subject might be, or maybe because of that... when one reads about a method of suicide by strangulation that involves a washing machine, or that among medical personel only anesthesiologists use exclusively injection as their method of choice (you might need to be "in the know" of medical status quo and/or slightly mental to find the latter apropriate) - I just couldn't help to giggle. And every time I did that I drawed looks from the librarians, and begun to write down the total number of losses on my part. 11 times -_- On April 17 2012 03:11 Angel_ wrote:
"Rational" doesn't remotely factor in to anything. And frankly, the idea that emotional turmoil can't be bad enough that someone could consider death is just...ignorant, really. Yeah... no... Being rational actually has a lot to do with that  In fact, most people who have commited suicide have been in a state of internal turmoil and in situation that made them prone to suicide, but did not do it and possibly would not have done it until they were inebrieted and the Rational lost to the Emotional. Think of it like punching someone in a bar. It's not rational. But most people don't do it because they do not realize that, but because they lost control for an ever so important moment. Which is also why though small amounts of alcohol can lower stress of cognitive dissonance in some difficult situations, it is inadvisable for people in state of that vulnerability to drink alcohol, as they can easily get fatally tipsy. Cheers! you and i aren't talking about the same thing really. =\ i understand your point, but it's not strictly related to what I was saying if you look at the post I was responding to.
Yeah, knowing the subject I considered the angle you're taking there, the comment was more for others benefit.
On April 17 2012 04:01 Jojo131 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 03:55 shinosai wrote:On April 17 2012 03:45 Jojo131 wrote:On April 17 2012 03:37 shinosai wrote:On April 17 2012 02:21 Jojo131 wrote:On April 17 2012 02:07 Barburas wrote:On April 17 2012 01:48 Jojo131 wrote:On April 17 2012 01:41 mcc wrote:On April 17 2012 01:25 Jojo131 wrote:On April 16 2012 23:42 Thorakh wrote:
[quote]It's so easy for us to say that, but we've never experienced a situation in which we were completely lost and in the dark.
And who are you to say that someone is living a 'comfortable' life? You might have all the money in the world, loving wife/husband and kids and still be emotionally broken.
It's all about how you feel from the inside. I find this attitude of bashing suicide disgusting, to say the least. If you have the money to eat 3 square meals a day, sleep in a decent bed, not have to worry about someone killing you in your sleep, or any combination of the three, there are going to be people wishing they had your life. Mental illness and emotional pains aren't exclusive to anyone either, yet there are people who deal with any combination of the above and still keep going. Suddenly life isn't so bad? Yes there are people who deal with them and there are those who do not deal with it. And rarely is the difference in some strength of character or something. There is nothing free about decision to kill yourself or not in a lot of cases. All of that is nicely predetermined by the condition they are suffering from and their brains. The only thing that can change how it will end is outside pressure : drugs, other people's influence, ... . Are you also going to say about those who die of cancer that they are weak, because there are others that did not die from the same cancer ? Terminal illness like cancer =/= Emotional mental illness, why did you even compare the two? If someone didn't die of a certain cancer, I'd call that a miracle. Except they really are of similar severities, it's just peoples perception of depression is often very different to physical diseases which are more easily tangible. There's often a suggestion that people should just "get over it" or they're being lazy or something like that, but that's not how depression works. While I dont disagree with that notion, there are also people who commit suicide out of general unhappiness with what they have without consideration of people who live in worse conditions. That was my main/initial point for this topic, and why I still think there is room to criticize some suicide cases. This is the most moronic argument I have ever come across in the discussion of suicide. And yet it keeps popping up again and again, almost as if it wishes to let it's stupidity become more well known. An analogy: If you lose a leg, you ought not to complain, because there are people in the world that have lost both legs. While it may be comforting to you that there is always someone else in the world suffering more than you are, that in itself does not take away from any of the suffering you experience. This is the grand mistake that you continue to make over and over again. Some sort of weird presumption that thinking about others who suffer more than you somehow magically can decrease your own suffering. It doesn't. I dont think I was very clear. The point is not to decrease one's suffering, or to say that one should not complain. It is to give them a reason to keep living and to know that there are people worse off that you can help (purpose?). That is a way of how you prevent suicide. Also you might want to calm a bit. It's a highly ineffective way at preventing suicide, if that was your goal. All it tends to do is piss people off, because what you're essentially doing is downplaying the person's pain by telling them it's not that bad (look at other people! they're okay) without actually addressing their pain. It's pretentious, insensitive, and quite frankly pathetic. Well, what would be your alternative? Unless you want to babysit every unhappy person.\
Hah, wouldn't you be surprised if you knew views of people specializing in the field. tl:dr - that is exactly what they reccomend Surveilance based on inventories (it's just several items, easy to administer) and biochemical indicators (cholesterol levels, neutrotransmittal disfunctions, hormone levels (5-HT as well as stipule-hypothalamus-adrenal).
On April 17 2012 04:48 Rice wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 04:40 mcc wrote:On April 17 2012 03:34 Jojo131 wrote:On April 17 2012 03:11 Angel_ wrote:On April 16 2012 23:02 Kiichol wrote:
I can understand why people with serious medical illnesses or handicaps could want to commit suicide or die.
I can understand why people who have to struggle immensely every day just to get food and shelter could wish to die.
I can understand why old people who may have just had enough of life and care not for waiting for death to take them wish to die.
But I cannot for the life of me understand people who commit suicide when they live relatively comfortable lives and still have decades to live for. No amount of emotional turmoil should lead one to thinking death is an option. It's not rational thinking. No one knows what happens when you die (despite what religious institutions may tell you). The only thing we do know is that death is eternal. So live now, while you still can. What have you got to lose? Death will find you eventually. Why rush it? When babies aren't loved they spontaneously die. Adolescents and young adults are no different. In general, people that have support systems (that they feel exist), and people that have anything that loves them (that they feel loves them) don't kill themselves. "Rational" doesn't remotely factor in to anything. And frankly, the idea that emotional turmoil can't be bad enough that someone could consider death is just...ignorant, really. You're not taking the whole argument into consideration. Rational does factor into things because there are other people who dont even have the bare necessities that another person considering suicide may have. Therefore I would argue that it is ignorant and even disrespectful to not appreciate your "crappy" life when someone else (for example here in the Philippines) would love to have it in exchange for their's. And it is ignorant to assume that the crappiness they feel has anything to do with external reality. There is disconnect between reality and their perception of it, that is why it is mental illness. They feel shitty because their brain makes them so, there is no rational contemplation of circumstances. And do not believe for a second anyone in Philippines would want the whole package, because the whole package means suicide. go talk to a torture or rape victim or someone whos child/spouse/whatever got brutally murdered, someone who's lost everything financially and as a result lost everyone who they thought loved them, someone who has lost all of their dignity and pride battling cancer, and tell them that their emotions had nothing to do with their reality, it was just their perception of reality that was flawed. I would LOVE to see what their response would be.
Chill mate. Just because some people do have real reasons for commiting suicide doesn;t mean the two are strongly interconnected. Those that kill themselves as teenagers cuz their gf left them think their reason is good enough. And there's plenty of people who have lived through all you listed and more without ever considering suicide (entire generations in fact).
Frankly, I really reccomend reading a book on this subject - there's a lot of counter intuitive things in this field, even for someone who already has rudimentary knowledge of psychology, much more for people who go by the "common sense".
On April 17 2012 03:58 sc2superfan101 wrote:
my cousin committed suicide yesterday, and to be honest, i'm a little pissed. part of me is saying: "i don't give a shit how much pain you were in, suck it up!" but then the other part of me is just sad that he's gone. it feels wrong to think about the dead in a bad way, but i can't help but feel like he really screwed over his siblings.
fucking suicide is the fucking devil. i just want to see my cousin again. i hate funerals so goddamn much.
Know what you feel man, it's pretty much the same I felt/thought at and after my uncle funeral. 10 years in, and I'm still pissed whenever I think about it.
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An interesting insight into a topic that is generally not that openly discussed. I didn't understand the woman leaving her father $1, is that possibly an inside joke between herself and her father or a token gift of remembrance or am I missing something?
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On April 17 2012 05:04 Rice wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 04:52 mcc wrote:On April 17 2012 04:48 Rice wrote:On April 17 2012 04:40 mcc wrote:On April 17 2012 03:34 Jojo131 wrote:On April 17 2012 03:11 Angel_ wrote:On April 16 2012 23:02 Kiichol wrote:
I can understand why people with serious medical illnesses or handicaps could want to commit suicide or die.
I can understand why people who have to struggle immensely every day just to get food and shelter could wish to die.
I can understand why old people who may have just had enough of life and care not for waiting for death to take them wish to die.
But I cannot for the life of me understand people who commit suicide when they live relatively comfortable lives and still have decades to live for. No amount of emotional turmoil should lead one to thinking death is an option. It's not rational thinking. No one knows what happens when you die (despite what religious institutions may tell you). The only thing we do know is that death is eternal. So live now, while you still can. What have you got to lose? Death will find you eventually. Why rush it? When babies aren't loved they spontaneously die. Adolescents and young adults are no different. In general, people that have support systems (that they feel exist), and people that have anything that loves them (that they feel loves them) don't kill themselves. "Rational" doesn't remotely factor in to anything. And frankly, the idea that emotional turmoil can't be bad enough that someone could consider death is just...ignorant, really. You're not taking the whole argument into consideration. Rational does factor into things because there are other people who dont even have the bare necessities that another person considering suicide may have. Therefore I would argue that it is ignorant and even disrespectful to not appreciate your "crappy" life when someone else (for example here in the Philippines) would love to have it in exchange for their's. And it is ignorant to assume that the crappiness they feel has anything to do with external reality. There is disconnect between reality and their perception of it, that is why it is mental illness. They feel shitty because their brain makes them so, there is no rational contemplation of circumstances. And do not believe for a second anyone in Philippines would want the whole package, because the whole package means suicide. go talk to a torture or rape victim or someone whos child/spouse/whatever got brutally murdered, someone who's lost everything financially and as a result lost everyone who they thought loved them, someone who has lost all of their dignity and pride battling cancer, and tell them that their emotions had nothing to do with their reality, it was just their perception of reality that was flawed, I would LOVE to see what their response would be. What are you talking about ? I am talking about people committing suicide due to mental illness, none of the cases you mention falls into that category. my mistake, I should've actually read the nested quotes... In response to those, "relatively comfortable life" is completely subjective. I've seen homeless people in complete poverty who are happy as can be, happiness can't just be measured by material objects such as food/clothing/shelter. People can have everything in the world going for them and still feel like they have nothing, obviously the situation is more than a simple issue of what's logical and what isn't.
Ok I've been following this debate for quite a while now. Mainly because I've been trying to answer a question I've always had floating around in the back of my mind.
Why do people who have access to the necessary things for survival (food water shelter etc) commit suicide?
Answer; different strokes for different folks.
This entire topic is subjective. It takes a certain type of person/situation to want to die. Trying to define any of it is starting to seem a daunting task. For as we can see in the suicide notes, the reasons or causes of suicide vary MASSIVELY.
So, I'm happy to be able to lay this question down to rest. At least in my mind.
Love teamliquid! There's so many intelligent people here and discussions rarely downgrade to the childish drivel seen elsewhere on the internet! There is still hope for mankind! =)
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On April 17 2012 05:49 Maxtor wrote:
An interesting insight into a topic that is generally not that openly discussed. I didn't understand the woman leaving her father $1, is that possibly an inside joke between herself and her father or a token gift of remembrance or am I missing something?
My first guess is it was a sarcastic gift.
"Because of a growing conviction that a hereditary insanity is manifesting itself beyond my control, I am taking this way out -- before mere nuisance attacks and rages against others assume a more dangerous form."
Could the father have abused her in some ways and so she's repaying him for all he's done for her with $1? The fact that she only mentiones him at the very end could indicate that as well. I guess we'll never know, could be pretty much anything.
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I often tell myself that even if i want to kill myself so badly, i just can't because i couldn't leave this world without writing something.
The only "problem" is that i have no idea how to puts the words and what i want to say the most for the last words. Everytime i think about it. I'm still hesistating, will it be a book, a biography, a letter (to who?), a simple sentence, a word, a quick note, something funny, something true, something weird, ...
So that's kinda what keeps me alive really.
Now i don't know if i should read this link xD
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On April 17 2012 05:14 Stratos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 04:52 mcc wrote:On April 17 2012 04:48 Rice wrote:On April 17 2012 04:40 mcc wrote:On April 17 2012 03:34 Jojo131 wrote:On April 17 2012 03:11 Angel_ wrote:On April 16 2012 23:02 Kiichol wrote:
I can understand why people with serious medical illnesses or handicaps could want to commit suicide or die.
I can understand why people who have to struggle immensely every day just to get food and shelter could wish to die.
I can understand why old people who may have just had enough of life and care not for waiting for death to take them wish to die.
But I cannot for the life of me understand people who commit suicide when they live relatively comfortable lives and still have decades to live for. No amount of emotional turmoil should lead one to thinking death is an option. It's not rational thinking. No one knows what happens when you die (despite what religious institutions may tell you). The only thing we do know is that death is eternal. So live now, while you still can. What have you got to lose? Death will find you eventually. Why rush it? When babies aren't loved they spontaneously die. Adolescents and young adults are no different. In general, people that have support systems (that they feel exist), and people that have anything that loves them (that they feel loves them) don't kill themselves. "Rational" doesn't remotely factor in to anything. And frankly, the idea that emotional turmoil can't be bad enough that someone could consider death is just...ignorant, really. You're not taking the whole argument into consideration. Rational does factor into things because there are other people who dont even have the bare necessities that another person considering suicide may have. Therefore I would argue that it is ignorant and even disrespectful to not appreciate your "crappy" life when someone else (for example here in the Philippines) would love to have it in exchange for their's. And it is ignorant to assume that the crappiness they feel has anything to do with external reality. There is disconnect between reality and their perception of it, that is why it is mental illness. They feel shitty because their brain makes them so, there is no rational contemplation of circumstances. And do not believe for a second anyone in Philippines would want the whole package, because the whole package means suicide. go talk to a torture or rape victim or someone whos child/spouse/whatever got brutally murdered, someone who's lost everything financially and as a result lost everyone who they thought loved them, someone who has lost all of their dignity and pride battling cancer, and tell them that their emotions had nothing to do with their reality, it was just their perception of reality that was flawed, I would LOVE to see what their response would be. What are you talking about ? I am talking about people committing suicide due to mental illness, none of the cases you mention falls into that category. Let me take a wild guess here. You actually don't have any idea what a mental illness is and which types of these are out there, do you? Or why would you just disregard the numerous disorders in which the patient clearly is connected to reality and responds to it?
I will just copy my answer to the original poster : "That was exaggeration, depends on their condition, it is a continuous spectrum. In some cases it is basically non-existent.".
But more precisely. Read my discussion with that poster. Then come back. From the context it will hopefully be clear that I was talking about how the factual reality of their material situation (as he was arguing that people who commit suicides are weak because they are so rich compared to poor people elsewhere in the world) has nothing to do with their emotional state. And what they feel is not related to how well off they are as their emotional state is not rational analysis of their material situation. Earlier in the thread I actually said that the thing that can change the outcome (suicide) are drugs, friends, family, ... So I think from that it should be clear what I meant.
To reiterate, the person I was responding to made general statements that were wrong. To "disprove" general statement you need just few counterexamples. So I used mentally ill people who commit suicide and pointed out that on that (rather large) subset of suicidal people he is wrong.
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On April 17 2012 06:09 Nyarly wrote:
I often tell myself that even if i want to kill myself so badly, i just can't because i couldn't leave this world without writing something.
The only "problem" is that i have no idea how to puts the words and what i want to say the most for the last words. Everytime i think about it. I'm still hesistating, will it be a book, a biography, a letter (to who?), a simple sentence, a word, a quick note, something funny, something true, something weird, ...
So that's kinda what keeps me alive really.
Now i don't know if i should read this link xD
That's why you talk with someone who is a professional in the field who is trained to help you with any suicidal feelings. There is a neurological reason for feelings like crap and often it can be remedied through cognitive therapy or specialized medicine. There are a ton of options for help...the real issue shouldn't be about what to write to leave when you're gone. You should find help so that you can keep going and write about the goodness of life. Everyone has extended periods of extreme lows, even years of it...trust me. Finding a way to enjoy life while you have it is important. If you are really feeling that way you NEED to tell someone who can help you find a solution.
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Honestly, now that I'm done reading some of those notes. I wish I never found this thread........ So sad. Whether u are pro/anti suicide (can there be a pro suicide argument ? lol) This is still a human being much like you and me. With sentient thought, emotions, and feelings. I've had some pretty dark times in my life, and maybe I'm just a pussy when it comes down to it. But never have I entertained the idea of suicide.
To quote the great Tyrion Lannister
Death is so terribly final, while life is full of possibilities.
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this is unfortunately the most poetic collection of writing i've read in a while
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It's crazy to read this stuff, I'm glad TL was mature enough not to flame this or close it. sad reads though.
Fall quarter I called Suicide Prevention. I'd called them before and the people were nice, but this time the woman acted a little indignant. "Why the hell do you want to do something like that?" she asked. We talked until she said she had other phone calls. But she made me promise I wouldn't try it without calling back first. I had a bottle of Coricidin from a wisdom tooth operation. I'd been thinking about it for a month off and on. Much later that night I took ten Coricidin and went to bed. I woke up in the morning feeling really rotten -- weepy, groggy. I could hardly move I thought I was going to die any minute. My roommate came home and got a friend to drive me to the school infirmary, where they gave me something that made me sick to my stomach. The doctor who gave it to me calmed me down. She said it happens to a lot of people, the pills wouldn't hurt me. I felt tingly, like I might pass out any minute.
I was immediately taken in a wheelchair to the psychiatrist's office. I talked to him about five minutes. He kept yelling ta me about why did I take the pills, why didn't I do this or that. I remember thinking, boy this man is a real jerk. I told him I didn't want to see him any more. He said, "That's fine," and put me in a locked room with bars on the windows. I couldn't make phone calls. I felt humiliated, which made me angry. I'm not crazy. I'm not weird. I don't want people to look at me like I'm nuts. I'm not some nutty kid who tried to knock herself off. I was most angry at being stuck in that room. I expected to be put in a straitjacket any minute. I complained until they moved me a pretty room and let me make phone calls.
I was there about two weeks. My psychiatrist kept harping at me about school -- was I going to stay in or drop out? I saw him ten minutes a day. The other patients and one orderly helped me a lot more than he did. I just wanted to find a place where I could be alone and think about things. I left feeling like not much had been accomplished, except letting me know that I didn't want to attempt it again. No -- I feel like I've become a lot more sensitive to people. I don't look at their problems as trivial any more. I almost like it when my friends come to me with problems. I feel like I can help now. I still haven't told the two people I was most angry at -- my father and my boyfriend -- why I was in the hospital.
This one got me the deepest, in my opinion it was an overworked stressed student who just needed council but got some arrogant fuck who knows nothing on the subject of mental health and how to treat it... Barbaric fuck, it's like the dark ages when you read about idiots like these who if anything forced the hand to take it's own life from this girl.
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EPT
