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On October 22 2012 18:24 Passion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 18:13 Bolty wrote:Today it's a bit different but still coupled to the fact that profit trumps everything. The war on drugs creates business in America. A legalization carries with it no real profit. Sure you could try to tax it but you forget that it is a plant, put here by mother nature. Are you gonna put the royal seal on weedbags sold by the state or something? You will never be able to control it properly. Nor should you. Hard to keep this strictly about weed as the topic is deeply connected to our society in general and how we view it. There's really so much more to say but my plane is landing and i have to turn off my gadgets  Will elaborate and keep arguing later tonight. How come this doesn't form an issue what so ever for the sales of vegetables / fruit / grain / etc. Of course you can tax and regulate natural products... and of course you'll be able to control it properly. And we should! Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 18:13 Timmsh wrote:
I think his ("above poster's") point was, that it has almost zero conclusive evidence, because it's illegal.
There is alot of potential for research which is on a hold, because of restricting policies.
But i'm from holland, so I don't care.
The only problem here is, that foreign (French, Belgium, German) people overrun our borders for it, which limits our use drastically.
Did you know that in the Netherlands you have to go to municipality to get a certificate of birth, just to sign yourself up in the coffeeshop as a club.
Nobody i know is willing to get this certificate (pay for it) and join one club (your not allowed to join another club)
So people around the borders buy it illegally again in the Netherlands.
Especially being from Holland you should care. This entire weed-pass plan is a disaster. The situation described above has only been applied to the border towns. And it's a complete joke. There never was a serious issue (please, tell me, what was the last time you saw stoners get rowdy). Mayors and the rest of the municipal politicians clearly state the new regulation is causing massive chaos and crime. Street selling took a huge leap, causing a lot more trouble than tourists ever managed. This is confirmed by every single city in which this was implemented. All 12 big cities in the Netherlands are doing all they can to fight this new regulation (to be introduced nationally on 1st of Jan.).
No don't get me wrong, i do care.
I care alot about the new policy, it effects me (negatively) as well.
The big problem in the matter is the fact that the EU is pushing the Netherlands to these measures. (weed pass)
so it's not about the cities themselves, because they are forced to do this.
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On October 22 2012 18:33 Passion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 18:28 Timmsh wrote:On October 22 2012 18:24 Passion wrote:On October 22 2012 18:13 Bolty wrote:Today it's a bit different but still coupled to the fact that profit trumps everything. The war on drugs creates business in America. A legalization carries with it no real profit. Sure you could try to tax it but you forget that it is a plant, put here by mother nature. Are you gonna put the royal seal on weedbags sold by the state or something? You will never be able to control it properly. Nor should you. Hard to keep this strictly about weed as the topic is deeply connected to our society in general and how we view it. There's really so much more to say but my plane is landing and i have to turn off my gadgets Will elaborate and keep arguing later tonight. How come this doesn't form an issue what so ever for the sales of vegetables / fruit / grain / etc. Of course you can tax and regulate natural products... and of course you'll be able to control it properly. And we should! I think the reason for this, is the amounts. Ever grown weed? In the Netherlands it's allowed to grow 3 full sized plants. (as you probably know) if you grow for 2 seasons (6 plants), you have enough weed to substain a family. So it's uncontrollable in that way. (every person can grow 6 plants) You can't grow 6 plants. In addition, it would be illegal to have the "harvest" of 6 plants or in fact, even 3, especially keeping in mind that the maximum stock for a coffeeshop is 500g...
i said you can grow 3 plants (in most municipalities you can)
for 2 seasons, (3 times 2 =...)
harvesting is no problem, because that is legal as well.
edit:
Ok, legal is a confusing subject in the Netherlands, so i delete that part.
But let's say that "harvesting" isn't that illegal, compared to professional growing (with the use of lamps etc)
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On October 22 2012 18:36 Bolty wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 18:24 Passion wrote:On October 22 2012 18:13 Bolty wrote:Today it's a bit different but still coupled to the fact that profit trumps everything. The war on drugs creates business in America. A legalization carries with it no real profit. Sure you could try to tax it but you forget that it is a plant, put here by mother nature. Are you gonna put the royal seal on weedbags sold by the state or something? You will never be able to control it properly. Nor should you. Hard to keep this strictly about weed as the topic is deeply connected to our society in general and how we view it. There's really so much more to say but my plane is landing and i have to turn off my gadgets Will elaborate and keep arguing later tonight. How come this doesn't form an issue what so ever for the sales of vegetables / fruit / grain / etc. Of course you can tax and regulate natural products... and of course you'll be able to control it properly. And we should! This was a weird reply. I'm not sure what you are getting at? I guess you only meant to quote the second part there, because obviously you don't need cops to track down people who eat veggies, But the second comparison is... quite incorrect as well. How are vegetables taxed? You mean you pay consumer tax on them when you buy them in the store? That is not the same thing my friend. I can grow my own veggies and no one can tax me. Can't do that with weed.
If it's legal, how does taxing anything you grow yourself make sense (same goes for hunting them growers down)? How is this necessary anyway? 99% of the people will buy it, not grow it. Hence 99% of consumption can be taxed through VAT.
However, following tobacco example (also a plant) you can exceed VAT with all sorts of fancy taxes and tariffs.
But maybe I completely misinterpret your statements.
On October 22 2012 18:37 Timmsh wrote:
No don't get me wrong, i do care.
I care alot about the new policy, it effects me (negatively) as well.
The big problem in the matter is the fact that the EU is pushing the Netherlands to these measures. (weed pass)
so it's not about the cities themselves, because they are forced to do this.
Totally. Fuck you France & USA (rather than EU). Open your eyes and see that almost no one uses drugs in the Netherlands, at least compared to your countries.
And yea, the cities are completely innocent, or even victims of national policy (damn Fed 
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This is a common situation on TL.
An issue comes up for discussion and people begin to take moral standpoints based on the societal context of their upbringing. In other words, posters bring a bag full of 'must/must nots' and 'should/should nots' to the discussion and open that bag, fully believing that the contents of their bag are superior or more natural than the contents of other posters' bags. Debate ensues and we wind up with little critical discussion of either side of the issue.
What is missing is a critical discussion of the sociological aspect of drug use: how society and social norms determine how we contextualize drug use. Here is a good primer on that:
http://www.psychedelic-library.org/goode.htm
Please include a sociology section in the OP; if you like, I will write and expand it, just let me know!
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Sociologists being sociologists.
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Iant gonna give you the 10 year long wall of text why smoking any drug is bad,
so im simply gonna say no.
ive seen way to much bull-butt related to drugs as this so i cant really say i like it,
but all this "its like smoking cigarettes but its good for you" bullcrap iant buying cuz its not.
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On October 22 2012 17:37 Swede wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 16:37 Nizaris wrote:On October 22 2012 14:00 Swede wrote:
As much as I don't care about whether or not marijuana is legalised, I am curious why it's such a big deal to people. There's pretty much a perpetual discussion on legalising weed on every internet forum with a reasonably large and active population. The amount of discussion just seems totally disproportionate to the size of the issue.
If there was ever an argument for marijuana being addictive, it would be that so many of the people who smoke it care about it so much, far above a rational level of concern.
Anyway, I'm not actually arguing that all marijuana users are addicted. I just find the level of concern for something so unimportant to be silly is all. making as much as 50% of the 20 year olds into criminals for no good reason is unimportant to you? well excuse us for caring... It's unimportant by comparison to other things since everybody has the choice to just not smoke weed. There's only so much sympathy you can grant to somebody who does it knowing what the consequences could be and then gets caught. Especially since it is by and large a drug of leisure (and typically a massive waste of time). I feel some sympathy for those who use it for medical reasons, but I'm also aware that advocates for medical marijuana often exaggerate its usefulness over existing treatments. For example a poster just above has claimed that marijuana is an 'efficacious' medicine for the treatment of MS, in spite of the fact that there is very little research to verify this (unless said poster would like to provide some). I'm not denying that there may be some legitimate medicinal uses for marijuana (glaucoma is one illness which it is definitely useful for, and it's also useful for regaining appetite in certain situations), but people talk about it as if it's some miracle cure, even though there's almost zero conclusive evidence that it helps with anything. There's a lot of studies that conclude that 'marijuana may be useful for so and so', but that's not even close to the same thing. Anyway, I'm not actually anti-marijuana despite how I may come across. I just think it's further down the list of things to worry about.
i should have the choice to smoke or not, and not threatened into what's socially acceptable at this time.
It's proven banning it doesn't do shit. So why in a society that labels itself as reasonable is it still illegal ? Don't say to protect users from themselves cuz that's just bullshit (hint tobacco).
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why do you refer to it as marijuana and not its scientific/accurate name of Cannabis / cannabis sativa
calling it Marijuana is like discussing prostitution but referring to it as brotheling or something
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On October 22 2012 20:10 Vei wrote:
why do you refer to it as marijuana and not its scientific/accurate name of Cannabis / cannabis sativa
calling it Marijuana is like discussing prostitution but referring to it as brotheling or something
Yeah I think marijuana was a term coined by anti cannabis american politicians to make it sound ´scarier´ (not really the right word) in the ears of the population.
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On October 22 2012 20:10 Vei wrote:
why do you refer to it as marijuana and not its scientific/accurate name of Cannabis / cannabis sativa
calling it Marijuana is like discussing prostitution but referring to it as brotheling or something
This is really a small, even a very insignificant issue, about this topic given the amount of things that can be discussed. "Marijuana" has gone beyond its pejorative sense and is already widely accepted since what, the 60s.
On topic, the real problem with legalizing marijuana is that not everyone reacts the same way. I think decriminalization is a better option.
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That map is interesting, didn't know they had different laws for different states in Australia, guess you learn something everyday.
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looking at the map, i feel very proud to have recently moved to holland 
although from western canada which i feel like should be light blue.. at least vancouver anyways... i havent heard of anyone being arrested for smoking weed.. even in public.
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I'm surprised by the poll results. I hope it reflects people's real opinion as I might have been party to the confusion, if there was some. I hope it's not too late for some definition of the terms (although I assume we all know this already):
Legalized - like cigarette and alcohol, they become available without any legal prohibitions. Legal interventions only come to deal with the results and not with the acquisition itself, that is, a person being drunk may be penalized after vandalizing or breaking a window.
Decriminalized - legal only in some specific cases, like for medical purposes, or, upon scientific investigation proving the baseline standard, (hypothetical in this case) a person is only allowed a certain amount of cannabis in his system for recreational purposes. Anything more results in an arrest.
Illegalize - punishable under any circumstance.
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On October 22 2012 18:49 Passion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 18:36 Bolty wrote:On October 22 2012 18:24 Passion wrote:On October 22 2012 18:13 Bolty wrote:Today it's a bit different but still coupled to the fact that profit trumps everything. The war on drugs creates business in America. A legalization carries with it no real profit. Sure you could try to tax it but you forget that it is a plant, put here by mother nature. Are you gonna put the royal seal on weedbags sold by the state or something? You will never be able to control it properly. Nor should you. Hard to keep this strictly about weed as the topic is deeply connected to our society in general and how we view it. There's really so much more to say but my plane is landing and i have to turn off my gadgets Will elaborate and keep arguing later tonight. How come this doesn't form an issue what so ever for the sales of vegetables / fruit / grain / etc. Of course you can tax and regulate natural products... and of course you'll be able to control it properly. And we should! This was a weird reply. I'm not sure what you are getting at? I guess you only meant to quote the second part there, because obviously you don't need cops to track down people who eat veggies, But the second comparison is... quite incorrect as well. How are vegetables taxed? You mean you pay consumer tax on them when you buy them in the store? That is not the same thing my friend. I can grow my own veggies and no one can tax me. Can't do that with weed. If it's legal, how does taxing anything you grow yourself make sense (same goes for hunting them growers down)? How is this necessary anyway? 99% of the people will buy it, not grow it. Hence 99% of consumption can be taxed through VAT. However, following tobacco example (also a plant) you can exceed VAT with all sorts of fancy taxes and tariffs. But maybe I completely misinterpret your statements.
I guess we both misinterpret eachother, honestly I have no idea what you're getting at. You CAN tax anything, sure. But it's pointless until we have cameras literally everywhere (which probably isn't that far off).
And you obviously don't use drugs. I doubt you do anything not condoned by the government, no offense.
Anyway if you did you would know that 99% will not buy taxed weed, why would they? It will be more expensive. A lot of people probably will because it's practical, sure. But since this society produces poor people like it does, these people will still buy it illegally. And how are you gonna regulate that? Personally, I would buy taxed weed once to get the official looking bag and then fill said bag with unregulated herb. How dey gonna know bro?
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They would know because they ain't buying it in a shop no matter the bag.
I'd buy taxed weed, just to get higher quality. Shitty street weed is not even worth smoking.
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There is a reason marijuana is illegal in the US. Hardcore statistic: In my 2 years in the police force, 80% of all the juvenile crimes are done by people who test positive to drugs.
ILLEGAL
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On October 23 2012 01:12 neggro wrote:
There is a reason marijuana is illegal in the US. Hardcore statistic: In my 2 years in the police force, 80% of all the juvenile crimes are done by people who test positive to drugs.
ILLEGAL
positive to drugs or positive to MJ ? No1 said anything about making crack legal.
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On October 23 2012 01:13 Nizaris wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 01:12 neggro wrote:
There is a reason marijuana is illegal in the US. Hardcore statistic: In my 2 years in the police force, 80% of all the juvenile crimes are done by people who test positive to drugs.
ILLEGAL positive to drugs or positive to MJ ? No1 said anything about making crack legal.
marijuana I mean. These are juveniles who normally smoke a joint before doing stupid shit. What do you mean no one? Every one here wants to legalize it.
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On October 21 2012 17:55 FXOUnstable wrote:
Personally I was never a fan of marijuana, The people who tend to be "addicted" to it for lack of a better word and smoke heavily that I personally have ever known were always the type of people who couldn't keep a job and were not the smartest people, I figured this was a coincidence.
But then when I was at university I witnessed a straight A/HD student start smoking and within 6 months he didn't care about anything other than smoking it and even quit university and went on welfare. so it got me thinking, what is the tradeoff, having it illegal and people being hurt trying to get it that way, or having it legal and running the risk of those with addictive personalities get hooked on it, but that being said its just as much a risk that they get addicted to anything else.
That being said i'm sure there are many people who have the self control to do it moderately, so really why isn't it legalized yet when cigarettes and alcohol is pretty much the same thing.
i smoke nearly every day and started a software business, work 80+ hours a week, and am finding success. Your logic is incredibly experiential based on a few isolated cases.
why do you think highly educated university towns have a large percentage of smokers relative to other areas? then you go to places like tennessee, alabama, mississippi...and people are killing themselves slowly with alcohol and lard.
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On October 23 2012 01:16 neggro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 01:13 Nizaris wrote:On October 23 2012 01:12 neggro wrote:
There is a reason marijuana is illegal in the US. Hardcore statistic: In my 2 years in the police force, 80% of all the juvenile crimes are done by people who test positive to drugs.
ILLEGAL positive to drugs or positive to MJ ? No1 said anything about making crack legal. marijuana I mean. These are juveniles who normally smoke a joint before doing stupid shit. What do you mean no one? Every one here wants to legalize it.
Everyone wants to legalize crack cocaine? That statement is about as believable as 80% of people who do crimes test for marijuana.
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EPT
