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On September 21 2012 06:21 KwarK wrote:
Using anesthesia on a bull you're castrating is fairly absurd, it won't make the post op any less painful for it and if you're really that concerned about animals avoiding pain you might as well go out to Africa and start tranquilising zebra as lions catch them. You're not torturing the thing, you're doing a simple medical procedure. Regarding animals getting their neck slit while they're still alive, that's pretty much the point. If the animal were already dead then you wouldn't slit it's neck, you'd go "someone has already done this one, pass me the next one" and then slit that one's throat. You slit their throat in order to kill them, that's the idea, of course you do it while they're still alive. If you didn't and still proceeded to carve them up to make steaks I think that'd be crueler.
Well one things happen in nature as nature is, without the faculty of reason and human empathy. That is why lions and other preys hunt and kill zebras etc. in the most brutal way like it's no one's business. Human's on the other hand have such faculties. Empathy, compassion. More importantly, we have the technology to do the killing less painful. This is an ideologica argument actually. It depends on how you believe animals should be treated and how humans should conduct their actions.
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On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice. I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated? It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead. What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species). Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P
Oh wow, you didnt just compare an 8 year old HUMAN girl to a cow did you? I suppose Hitler comes next, out of this thread now.
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On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is
that's just sad 
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On September 21 2012 11:37 Lombard wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice. I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated? It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead. What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species). Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P Oh wow, you didnt just compare an 8 year old HUMAN girl to a cow did you? I suppose Hitler comes next, out of this thread now.
If you want to go there, sure: please tell me a major difference between a concentration camp and a slaughterhouse besides "humans vs animals". Please keep in mind that "they aren't humans, they are lesser beings, animals" was one of the main "reasons" which made it "morally okay" to make it happen in the first place.
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I just came here to see if anyone reported getting any Vegan Powers...
On one had I thing veganism is good, but also kind of excessive
It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give
I belive for the most part we don't actually do this, the cows are bred to produce more milk than if they had evoloved naturally but very few cows(about 17%) in the US are give hormons to help production.
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On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry.
While it's understandable to say that we shouldn't unnecessarily torture animals, your statement is putting animals at the same ethical level as humans, and I, and many others, sure as hell don't feel that animals are at the same level ethically as we are. Carnivorous or omnivorous diets have existed in a multitiude of species, including our own, since the beginning of said species. I really want to see an argument that can actually say that it is ethically wrong for me to kill an animal (as a general rule). It sure as hell doesn't follow any law of nature (as we can see), and I don't think anyone would be foolish enough to make an appeal to divine authority. Furthermore, I still want to see some evidence that straight up meat is bad; not that the shitty, processed meat that we eat here is bad for you, but that all meat, no matter what, is worse for you than going to a vegan diet, until then, I'm sticking with my omnivorous diet.
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On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice. I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated? It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead. What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species). Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P
So which is it? In your second paragraph you say it's completely a personal choice and if they're fine with it go ahead. Then in the very next paragraph you say that it should make them feel guilty. I am also sick of people in this thread equating animals to humans.
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On September 21 2012 11:36 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. Unless I want to eat it. That's more than enough reason.
Imagine I am a cannibal and our paths cross in a massive deserted jungle. I chat to you for a while and find out you're on an intrepid advanture and haven't seen a soul in a month. No one is with you, no one knows where you are. I am stronger than you and have the neccesary tools to kill and eat you. I know I can get away with it, since no one will know where to begin looking and just assume you've succumbed to nature. Should I cause you, another living being, pain simply for the desire to eat your flesh and muscle, even though I'm surrounded by non-feeling alternatives. Hmmm, what a moral dihlemma. I think for a second, then realise "I want to eat it. That's more than enough reason", and raise my axe.
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On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power.
I stunned and fed a Preying Mantis 3 stink bugs about a week ago. I found both outside and didn't actually kill any of the bugs myself. Does that make me an accomplice to murder or is insects eating other insects not imoral?
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On September 21 2012 11:42 Dali. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:36 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. Unless I want to eat it. That's more than enough reason. Imagine I am a cannibal and our paths cross in a massive deserted jungle. I chat to you for a while and find out you're on an entripid advanture and haven't seen a soul in a month. No one is with you, no one knows where you are. I am stronger than you and have the neccesary tools to kill and eat you. I know I can get away with it, since no one will know where to begin looking and just assume you've succumbed to nature. Should I cause you, another living being pain, simply for the desire to eat your flesh and muscle, even though I'm surrounded by non-feeling alternatives. Hmmm, what a moral dihlemma. I think for a second, then realise "I want to eat it. That's more than enough reason", and raise my axe.
Animals are not worth the same as humans in an ethical system. Fuck, come on, there is no way you're going to make the argument that they are. I mean really, I'm not an animal hater by any means, I really do like animals and the idea of even accidentally hurting an animal with my own hands is horrible to me, but that said, trying to put animals on the same ethical level as me or any other human is incredibly insulting to humanity.
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On September 21 2012 11:40 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:37 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice. I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated? It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead. What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species). Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P Oh wow, you didnt just compare an 8 year old HUMAN girl to a cow did you? I suppose Hitler comes next, out of this thread now. If you want to go there, sure: please tell me a major difference between a concentration camp and a slaughterhouse besides "humans vs animals". Please keep in mind that "they aren't humans, they are lesser beings, animals" was one of the main "reasons" which made it "morally okay" to make it happen in the first place.
Oh and look here we are. People comparing a slaughterhouse to the freaking holocaust.
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I truly HATE these kinds of threads, I'm trying to lose weight but whenever I see these debates I feel an URGE to eat a double baconator with Cheese from Wendys TM . Strangely I also get the urge to eat eggs...
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I basically consume whatever makes me feel good and happy  .... I love to eat animals
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On September 21 2012 11:45 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:40 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:37 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice. I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated? It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead. What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species). Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P Oh wow, you didnt just compare an 8 year old HUMAN girl to a cow did you? I suppose Hitler comes next, out of this thread now. If you want to go there, sure: please tell me a major difference between a concentration camp and a slaughterhouse besides "humans vs animals". Please keep in mind that "they aren't humans, they are lesser beings, animals" was one of the main "reasons" which made it "morally okay" to make it happen in the first place. Oh and look here we are. People comparing a slaughterhouse to the freaking holocaust.
It has begun :/. Sapient being = cattle.
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On September 21 2012 11:42 Dali. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:36 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. Unless I want to eat it. That's more than enough reason. Imagine I am a cannibal and our paths cross in a massive deserted jungle. I chat to you for a while and find out you're on an entripid advanture and haven't seen a soul in a month. No one is with you, no one knows where you are. I am stronger than you and have the neccesary tools to kill and eat you. I know I can get away with it, since no one will know where to begin looking and just assume you've succumbed to nature. Should I cause you, another living being pain, simply for the desire to eat your flesh and muscle, even though I'm surrounded by non-feeling alternatives. Hmmm, what a moral dihlemma. I think for a second, then realise "I want to eat it. That's more than enough reason", and raise my axe.
First off, your entire scenario requires that humans and animals share some overarching degree of equivalency; I find this totally nonsensical.
Furthermore, just to play your game, I take excellent care of myself and am well practiced in outdoor survival, in addition to being above average in size and strength. Come at me bro.
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On September 21 2012 07:19 SolonTLG wrote:Here is my ethical argument: Eating animals is speciesist. I reject speciesim: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpeciesismIndeed what animals society deems acceptable to eat proves the point. Why do some cultures eat dogs and some not? Because some cultures have elevated dogs to companion animal status above other animals. In contrast, farmed animals have been placed at the bottom and slaughtered for food. For the record, I am also again all forms of animal testing. Speciesism acts in the same way as sexism, racism, or an other -ism. It is enforeced by dominate culture and often operates without explicit thought or knowledge. I reject all forms of discrimation, including that against other species. This is why I am vegan.
So basically veganism just like communism and feminism preaches that if everyone suddenly starts thinking exactly like you and your comrades, the world would be in some sort of utopia. And to achieve this there is no better way than appealing to emotion slogannering such first world inventions like "animal cruelty" or "animal rights" and so on, when the truth is that by looking at a mirror you realize that the human race was designed to eat meat and nothing is going to change that. I'm preparing a lovely steak tomorrow, it's so delicious.
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On September 21 2012 11:43 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. I stunned and fed a Preying Mantis 3 stink bugs about a week ago. I found both outside and didn't actually kill any of the bugs myself. Does that make me an accomplice to murder or is insects eating other insects not imoral?
While I appreciate that you try to treat me as your conscience: I don't know. Personally I love watching a Preying Mantis hunt and eat. I also have the same feeling for Lions. Seeing how nature works in an almost undisturbed way is amazing, it's checks and balances. I think I would also love to see humans hunt their food together.
What's over the top for me is taking a bunch of animals, putting them into a small place, causing them immense pain from birth to slaughter and all that to produce something we don't need in the first place. If there's no alternative, fine, go ahead. But they are. We have the brain to explore them and the empathy to feel with other living beings. We can make the conscious thought chain of "I don't want to be treated like that" -> "I don't want to see others being treated like that".
Not extending the same privilege to another species? Why the hell not? I don't want a stronger and more intelligent species to show up and raise me as cattle either.
On September 21 2012 11:41 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice. I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated? It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead. What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species). Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P So which is it? In your second paragraph you say it's completely a personal choice and if they're fine with it go ahead. Then in the very next paragraph you say that it should make them feel guilty. I am also sick of people in this thread equating animals to humans.
I said it annoys the crap out of me and that I don't understand how to not feel guilty. I can find neither a logical nor an emotional argument to not feel guilty about it. If you can find either, please tell me about it.
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I might be a vegan when I'm relatively wealthy and comfortable. Right now it's not reasonable for me. Was a vegetarian for 3-4 years.
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On September 21 2012 11:45 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:40 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:37 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice. I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated? It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead. What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species). Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P Oh wow, you didnt just compare an 8 year old HUMAN girl to a cow did you? I suppose Hitler comes next, out of this thread now. If you want to go there, sure: please tell me a major difference between a concentration camp and a slaughterhouse besides "humans vs animals". Please keep in mind that "they aren't humans, they are lesser beings, animals" was one of the main "reasons" which made it "morally okay" to make it happen in the first place. Oh and look here we are. People comparing a slaughterhouse to the freaking holocaust.
Rather: Oh, look here we are. Instead of actually trying to understand why that comparison makes perfect sense APART from "animals != humans" you prefer to make a snide comment.
Actually the other difference I can think of "no one intended to eat those people". The scary thing for me personally is the incredibly number of similarities between those cases.
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On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice. I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated? It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead. What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species). Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P
I really feel that the argument in this thread is just a going in a circle around the subjectiveness of a peoples morals.
You find it immoral the way that animals are treated, because you hold them on the same level as humans and believe they should be treated as such. And I simply don't hold animals on the same level as you.
I think farm animals are raised for a purpose, and that is to be eaten, I don't feel sympathy for them simply because they lost the birth lottery.
As a person who's life revolves around food, I found this debate to be an interesting read, and I thank you for expanding my knowledge on the subject. Since this thread doesn't seem to be going anywhere, I felt like throwing in my 2 cents and now I'm stepping out.
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EPT
