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Veganism: A Discussion

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ImAbstracT
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
519 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-20 21:06:29
September 20 2012 20:59 GMT
#1
A vegan is a person who does not consumer any animal products. This includes meat, dairy, eggs and the like.
*While veganism is word that means much more than just a diet for the context of this discussion we will sticking purely to the intake of animal products.*

Within the last month I have radically changed my diet. I was raised a typical southern boy. I hunted, ate lots of meat, and drank my milk with every meal like I was told. I never gave a second thought to the consumption of meat or animal products as it was how I was raised.

Within the past few years I have watched many documentaries on the food industry. Everything ranging from GMO food to the industrial meat farms. To put it quickly and simply, the more I learned about the health, ethical, and environmental consequence of the typical American diet I could no long stay inactive. Below I will quickly cover the three things above.

Health
While there are many different studies which cover the relationship between animal products and various disease I will stick to the "mother of them all": The China Study. It is the most comprehensive study of nutrition there has been thus far. Here are the 8 principles that the book covers:

1.Nutrition represents the combined activities of countless food substances. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
2.Vitamin supplements are not a panacea for good health.
3.There are virtually no nutrients in animal-based foods that are not better provided by plants.
4.Genes do not determine disease on their own. Genes function only by being activated, or expressed, and nutrition plays a critical role in determining which genes, good and bad, are expressed.
5.Nutrition can substantially control the adverse effects of noxious chemicals.
6.The same nutrition that prevents disease in its early stages can also halt or reverse it in its later stages.
7.Nutrition that is truly beneficial for one chronic disease will support health across the board.
8.Good nutrition creates health in all areas of our existence. All parts are interconnected.

How the study was done was quite simple. They went into many small and rural china towns. They studied their diet and the existence (if any) of various diseases. The results are quite shocking

A good summary can be read here: http://tctutoring.net/pdf/ChinaStudy.pdf
Also I will post the "10 Point Cheat Sheet" in spoilers
+ Show Spoiler +
1. American health statistics are scary. You may feel fit as a fiddle, but the country is unwell. Almost a third of adults over 20 are obese; one out of thirteen people have diabetes; and heart disease kills one out of every three Americans. We also pay more for our health care than any other country, and we don’t have better health to show for it.

2. Animal protein promotes the growth of cancer. The book author T. Colin Campbell, PhD., grew up on a dairy farm, so he regularly enjoyed a wholesome glass of milk. Not anymore.

3. Pesticides are gross, but none switch on cancer like poor nutrition. The food you eat affects the way your cells interact with carcinogens, making them more or less dangerous. “The results of these, and many other studies, showed nutrition to be far more important in controlling cancer promotion than the dose of the initiating carcinogen.”

4. The study findings are bulletproof. After years of controversial lab results on animals, the researchers had to see how they played out in humans. The study they created included 367 variables, 65 counties in China, and 6,500 adults (who completed questionnaires, blood tests, etc.). “When we were done, we had more than 8,000 statistically significant associations between lifestyle, diet, and disease variables.” In other words, there’s no arguing with the findings, Meat Council of America. Sorry.

5. The results are simple: Eat plants for health. “People who ate the most animal-based foods got the most chronic disease. People who ate the most plant-based foods were the healthiest.”

6. Heart disease can be reversed through nutrition. Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr., M.D., a physician and researcher at the best cardiac center in the country, The Cleveland Clinic, treated 18 patients with established coronary disease with a whole foods, plant-based diet. Not only did the intervention stop the progression of the disease, but 70 percent of the patients saw an opening of their clogged arteries. Dr. Dean Ornish, a graduate of Harvard Medical School, completed a similar study with consistent results.

7. Carbs are not the enemy. Highly-processed, refined carbohydrates are bad for you. But plant foods are full of healthy carbs. Research shows that diets like the Atkins or South Beach can actually cause dangerous side effects. While they may result in short-term weight loss, you’ll be sacrificing long-term health.

8. Plants are powerful. It’s not just cancer and heart disease that respond to a whole foods, plant-based diet. It may also help protect you from diabetes, obesity, autoimmune diseases, bone, kidney, eye, and brain diseases.

9. You don’t have to tailor your diet for specific health benefits. Eating healthy can seem segmented—broccoli will prevent breast cancer, carrots are good for eyes, did you get enough vitamin C today? “Nutrition that is truly beneficial for one chronic disease will support health across the board.”

10. Plants do it better. “There are virtually no nutrients in animal-based foods that are not better provided by plants.” Protein (YES, PROTEIN!), fiber, vitamins, minerals—you name it, they’ve got it, and the health benefits.


There is also a little absurdity involved in our consumption of cow's milk. I mean we literally are consuming a substance made for an infant cow. Does that many any sense? But of course for humans to get that milk we have to take it away from the infant cows (which are sold as veal regardless). Milk is something we were made to consume as a baby from our mother during a very special stage of our development and not our entire life. Especially from a whole different species of animals!

Also, something to keep in mind, an egg is simple a hen's "period". .

Ethical Reasons
There is a wealth of information to be found out about the industrial meat industry. Too much for me to type, but I will share some resources that cover the basics.

One of the most famous websites (and short video) is find at meat.org. The video is called Meet Your Meat and covers the treatment of the most common animals raised purely for slaughter. Every second which passes by 300 animals are killed in the US for human consumption.

Now as I stated before I used to hunt. By no means am I about to join the Animal Liberation Front, but in no way, shape or form is the treatment of animals anywhere remotely near ethical. Animals getting their neck slit while still being alive, putting live pigs in boiling water, throwing live male chicks in the garbage, castrating bulls with no anesthesia, etc. Not even to mention the horrible living conditions where some animals can't even turn around or lie down. There are many other videos like the one above which highlight these standard industry practices. Animals can be happy and sad. They can feel pain just like we do, and have a strong desire just to stay alive.


Environmental
"According to Environmental Defense, if every American skipped one meal of chicken per week and substituted vegetarian foods instead, the carbon dioxide savings would be the same as taking more than half a million cars off U.S. roads."

At a global scale, it has been estimated that livestock contribute, directly and indirectly, to about 9% of total anthropogenic carbon dioxide emissions, 37% of methane emissions (which is far worse than carbon dioxide environmentally) and 65% of nitrous oxide emissions (per the book Livestock's Lone Shadow)

The sustain global meat demands we are literally killing the planet. The rainforests are being burned down to provide more cattle grazing room. We have to create more room to grown grain for the animals (which if everyone adopted a mostly plant-based diet we could feed everyone in the world, but that's a different topic!). If every other people group had the consumption levels as American's we literally would need about 4 more Earths, and we are exporting the American diet all over the world.

Then their is the problem with what to do with animal waste. This has been the cause of many water contamination leading to dirty drinking water to fish kills.


This is a very brief and informal post about a very complex and important topic. This isn't meant to explain every little detail. I ask you read and watch the little bit of information I provide, but don't stop their. If after all this research you still want to eat meat, then go for it. I am not here to tell you what to think, eat, etc. I don't think it is morally wrong to eat meat, but I would say it is immoral to participate in the modern meat industry by using its products.

This is what I want to discuss. The impact of meat production and consumption on the human body and the environment.

Also, please excuse any misspellings and grammatical errors. I am currently at work, and have been writing this hastily throughout the day.
"I want you to take a moment, and reflect, on how much of a failure you are" - IdrA
Vanimar
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
220 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-20 21:06:01
September 20 2012 21:05 GMT
#2
I might actually try it, thanks :D
I figured out the EG Curse. It was set in motion by Voodoo Shamans working for Millenium. Whenever EG aquires a player, Voodoo energies start slowly draining skill from the EG guy into an Millenium newcomer. Think about it!
stevarius
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1394 Posts
September 20 2012 21:08 GMT
#3
On September 21 2012 06:05 Vanimar wrote:
I might actually try it, thanks :D


That's nice, but I'll stick to my large consumption of meat products AND milk. For a thread on veganism, it sure disgresses too often into problemss that are caused by other factors rather than meat, such as diabetes, obesity, etc.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
ImAbstracT
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
519 Posts
September 20 2012 21:08 GMT
#4
On September 21 2012 06:05 Vanimar wrote:
I might actually try it, thanks :D

First few days honestly suck as your body transitions. After a month I have lost about 15 pounds. I feel much better, have more energy, and even feel like I can think more clearly. I do still eat some processed foods (vegan, of course), but I eat much more fruits and vegetables.

For anyone who is serious about trying to switch (even for a limited time) watch the documentary Vegucated. It covers 3 ordinary people as they switch to veganism for 6 weeks. It is a very interesting and entertaining movie!.
"I want you to take a moment, and reflect, on how much of a failure you are" - IdrA
Boblhead
Profile Joined August 2010
United States2577 Posts
September 20 2012 21:08 GMT
#5
I can say for a fact ive had tried many vegan dishes, and let me tell you when eating a vegan burger its good, but nothing comes close to the real thing. I do occasionally like to where my PETA shirt "People eating tasty animals" I always get a few nasty stares but hey. If I became sick or had a disease that would require me to cut down on meat products then I would switch to being a vegetarian. I don't think I could ever give up milk/cheese/eggs It just wouldn't feel right.
Blacktion
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom1148 Posts
September 20 2012 21:09 GMT
#6
As a scientist all i can say is wow.
Where's Boxer, there's victory! - figq
ImAbstracT
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
519 Posts
September 20 2012 21:10 GMT
#7
On September 21 2012 06:08 stevarius wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2012 06:05 Vanimar wrote:
I might actually try it, thanks :D


That's nice, but I'll stick to my large consumption of meat products AND milk. For a thread on veganism, it sure disgresses too often into problemss that are caused by other factors rather than meat, such as diabetes, obesity, etc.


There is a connection between diabetes (type 1 I believe) and obesity to animal product consumption. You can literally eat all the fruits, veggies, nuts, and plant based foods you want without worrying about being overweight.

*This is just from some sources I have read. Don't use my posts to make your dietary choices.*
"I want you to take a moment, and reflect, on how much of a failure you are" - IdrA
stevarius
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1394 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-20 21:12:52
September 20 2012 21:10 GMT
#8
On September 21 2012 06:08 ImAbstracT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2012 06:05 Vanimar wrote:
I might actually try it, thanks :D

First few days honestly suck as your body transitions. After a month I have lost about 15 pounds. I feel much better, have more energy, and even feel like I can think more clearly. I do still eat some processed foods (vegan, of course), but I eat much more fruits and vegetables.

For anyone who is serious about trying to switch (even for a limited time) watch the documentary Vegucated. It covers 3 ordinary people as they switch to veganism for 6 weeks. It is a very interesting and entertaining movie!.


You should show me what a 3-3.5k calorie diet complete with the macronutrients required for bodybuilding and weigh training would look like that contains all the nutrients my body would need.

I don't even want to know how much food it would contain.

You can literally eat all the fruits, veggies, nuts, and plant based foods you want without worrying about being overweight.


That's bullshit. I could become overweight eating a combination of those. You lost weight because you ate under maintenance. I could do the same with a diet containing only meat, a diet containing only candy bars, etc.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
September 20 2012 21:10 GMT
#9
On September 21 2012 05:59 ImAbstracT wrote:
There is also a little absurdity involved in our consumption of cow's milk. I mean we literally are consuming a substance made for an infant cow. Does that many any sense? But of course for humans to get that milk we have to take it away from the infant cows (which are sold as veal regardless). Milk is something we were made to consume as a baby from our mother during a very special stage of our development and not our entire life. Especially from a whole different species of animals!

Reading vegans is always hard to me because of all the partisan stuff. But that's just beautiful. I was eating peanuts earlier, that's like a cumshot in mah face.

Come on.
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
ImAbstracT
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
519 Posts
September 20 2012 21:13 GMT
#10
On September 21 2012 06:10 stevarius wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2012 06:08 ImAbstracT wrote:
On September 21 2012 06:05 Vanimar wrote:
I might actually try it, thanks :D

First few days honestly suck as your body transitions. After a month I have lost about 15 pounds. I feel much better, have more energy, and even feel like I can think more clearly. I do still eat some processed foods (vegan, of course), but I eat much more fruits and vegetables.

For anyone who is serious about trying to switch (even for a limited time) watch the documentary Vegucated. It covers 3 ordinary people as they switch to veganism for 6 weeks. It is a very interesting and entertaining movie!.


You should show me what a 3-3.5k calorie diet complete with the macronutrients required for bodybuilding and weigh training would look like that contains all the nutrients my body would need.

I don't even want to know how much food it would contain.

Show nested quote +
You can literally eat all the fruits, veggies, nuts, and plant based foods you want without worrying about being overweight.


That's bullshit. I could become overweight eating a combination of those. You lost weight because you ate under maintenance. I could do the same with a diet containing only meat, a diet containing only candy bars, etc.


These guys can help you a lot more than me:
http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/

I know there are all sort of vegan athletes, body builders, UFC fighters, etc.
"I want you to take a moment, and reflect, on how much of a failure you are" - IdrA
WTFZerg
Profile Joined February 2011
United States704 Posts
September 20 2012 21:14 GMT
#11
On September 21 2012 06:10 ImAbstracT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2012 06:08 stevarius wrote:
On September 21 2012 06:05 Vanimar wrote:
I might actually try it, thanks :D


That's nice, but I'll stick to my large consumption of meat products AND milk. For a thread on veganism, it sure disgresses too often into problemss that are caused by other factors rather than meat, such as diabetes, obesity, etc.


There is a connection between diabetes (type 1 I believe) and obesity to animal product consumption. You can literally eat all the fruits, veggies, nuts, and plant based foods you want without worrying about being overweight.

*This is just from some sources I have read. Don't use my posts to make your dietary choices.*


I.

What.
Might makes right.
kingcoyote
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States546 Posts
September 20 2012 21:14 GMT
#12
On September 21 2012 06:10 ImAbstracT wrote:
You can literally eat all the fruits, veggies, nuts, and plant based foods you want without worrying about being overweight.


What?

You could sit on your couch all day and eat nothing but potato chips and drink soda and beer and have a perfectly vegan diet and be a lardass. I did it.

I've been vegetarian my entire life and ended up at 220 lbs at 5'11' before I dropped back down to 170. Not eating animal products doesn't magically erase Calories from oils, sugar and alcohol.
Edahspmal
Profile Joined October 2010
United States156 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-20 21:20:09
September 20 2012 21:16 GMT
#13
On September 21 2012 06:10 ImAbstracT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2012 06:08 stevarius wrote:
On September 21 2012 06:05 Vanimar wrote:
I might actually try it, thanks :D


That's nice, but I'll stick to my large consumption of meat products AND milk. For a thread on veganism, it sure disgresses too often into problemss that are caused by other factors rather than meat, such as diabetes, obesity, etc.


There is a connection between diabetes (type 1 I believe) and obesity to animal product consumption. You can literally eat all the fruits, veggies, nuts, and plant based foods you want without worrying about being overweight.

*This is just from some sources I have read. Don't use my posts to make your dietary choices.*

1. correlation =/= causation
2. You can't eat all the food you want without gaining weight. Nuts especially, because a lot of them are really high in fat. Celery is an exception to the all-you-can-eat because you can't really digest them. The best way to not be overweight is to eat less and exercise more.
ImAbstracT
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
519 Posts
September 20 2012 21:17 GMT
#14
On September 21 2012 06:14 kingcoyote wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2012 06:10 ImAbstracT wrote:
You can literally eat all the fruits, veggies, nuts, and plant based foods you want without worrying about being overweight.


What?

You could sit on your couch all day and eat nothing but potato chips and drink soda and beer and have a perfectly vegan diet and be a lardass. I did it.

I've been vegetarian my entire life and ended up at 220 lbs at 5'11' before I dropped back down to 170. Not eating animal products doesn't magically erase Calories from oils, sugar and alcohol.


We are not talking about processed foods like that. Of course. Skittles and Oreos are vegan too. I was speaking just of whole and raw vegetables, fruits, etc.
"I want you to take a moment, and reflect, on how much of a failure you are" - IdrA
Otolia
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
France5805 Posts
September 20 2012 21:18 GMT
#15
Guys, I have this crazy idea ! What about moderation ? You know something that ISN'T extremism ...

With the same reasoning, we should stop eating corns because it takes too much water, stop growing tomatoes and potatoes in Europe because it's not originated from there and various other funny aberrations.
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
September 20 2012 21:19 GMT
#16
On September 21 2012 06:18 Otolia wrote:
Guys, I have this crazy idea ! What about moderation ? You know something that ISN'T extremism ...

With the same reasoning, we should stop eating corns because it takes too much water, stop growing tomatoes and potatoes in Europe because it's not originated from there and various other funny aberrations.

Nope. Radicals only. People who look down on others
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
Vanimar
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
220 Posts
September 20 2012 21:21 GMT
#17
On September 21 2012 06:08 ImAbstracT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2012 06:05 Vanimar wrote:
I might actually try it, thanks :D

First few days honestly suck as your body transitions. After a month I have lost about 15 pounds. I feel much better, have more energy, and even feel like I can think more clearly. I do still eat some processed foods (vegan, of course), but I eat much more fruits and vegetables.

For anyone who is serious about trying to switch (even for a limited time) watch the documentary Vegucated. It covers 3 ordinary people as they switch to veganism for 6 weeks. It is a very interesting and entertaining movie!.


Well I think the whole "thinking clearer" might be due to you increased discipline and a feeling of self-efficacy.
The weight loss might also be a side effect of you actually considering what you eat before you eatit (just naming POSSIBLE variables that might interfere, not saying you are wrong per se).

I don't really care for the whole animal love side or whatever. Not that I don't like animals, but it's survival of the fittest. And If I can decrease my risk of dieing it seems fit to me. If all I have to do is start actually thinking about what I eat, well then I think even a different causal reason might bring me closer to that goal.
Worth a shot in any case.
I'm trying to figure out what to eat for breakfast though, most websites only give fancy stuff, not really suitable for everyday usage :D
I figured out the EG Curse. It was set in motion by Voodoo Shamans working for Millenium. Whenever EG aquires a player, Voodoo energies start slowly draining skill from the EG guy into an Millenium newcomer. Think about it!
kingcoyote
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States546 Posts
September 20 2012 21:21 GMT
#18
On September 21 2012 06:17 ImAbstracT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2012 06:14 kingcoyote wrote:
On September 21 2012 06:10 ImAbstracT wrote:
You can literally eat all the fruits, veggies, nuts, and plant based foods you want without worrying about being overweight.


What?

You could sit on your couch all day and eat nothing but potato chips and drink soda and beer and have a perfectly vegan diet and be a lardass. I did it.

I've been vegetarian my entire life and ended up at 220 lbs at 5'11' before I dropped back down to 170. Not eating animal products doesn't magically erase Calories from oils, sugar and alcohol.


We are not talking about processed foods like that. Of course. Skittles and Oreos are vegan too. I was speaking just of whole and raw vegetables, fruits, etc.


Even if you cut out processed foods, it's not a true statement. Try eating 4,000 Calories worth of nuts every day and not exercise and see what happens. Weight change is a numbers game - if you take in more than you burn off, you put on weight. It doesn't matter where it comes from.

To say that plant-based foods let you not worry about being overweight is just spreading misinformation.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43758 Posts
September 20 2012 21:21 GMT
#19
Complaining about how natural milk or eggs are on the internet is kinda odd. By that logic if nature had meant for us to remotely communicate abstract ideas with each other we'd be telepathic. Nature has no intention and humans are animals following our primal desires to consume, we use milk because we want to, nothing unnatural about it.

Using anesthesia on a bull you're castrating is fairly absurd, it won't make the post op any less painful for it and if you're really that concerned about animals avoiding pain you might as well go out to Africa and start tranquilising zebra as lions catch them. You're not torturing the thing, you're doing a simple medical procedure. Regarding animals getting their neck slit while they're still alive, that's pretty much the point. If the animal were already dead then you wouldn't slit it's neck, you'd go "someone has already done this one, pass me the next one" and then slit that one's throat. You slit their throat in order to kill them, that's the idea, of course you do it while they're still alive. If you didn't and still proceeded to carve them up to make steaks I think that'd be crueler.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
September 20 2012 21:22 GMT
#20
I personally couldn't go vegetarian, much less vegan. I love my meats, and animal products far too much.
Mad respect to those who can do it without the "holier than art thou'" attitude.
liftlift > tsm
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