|
Before I start, going to say: Been a veggie since birth, switched over to veganism for various reasons: ethical issues, health problems and in all honesty, because I wanted a change.
Now: I lead a very active life. I work in a very physically and mentally demanding job, have played various sports for my county and country, and I've never had a problem with protein. Even while working out seriously, and requiring huge amounts of protein, I've barely had to supplement with a protein shake. Even if I had to, Soy & Brown Rice are totally fine.
It's a common misconception that vegans are "healthier" though. It's very easy to eat a junk food diet as a vegan, since lots of stuff that's junk food(: Soda, fries, chips, etc. etc.) is perfectly fine for us to eat. It's not fine in a health way though, we need to eat a broader diet of beans, green leaves and so on to stay healthy. In the same way that a meat eater has to, largely, do the same. Studies either way are largely flawed, sadly, so there's no real way of getting a clear cut example here.
The sad thing I find is this:
I choose to be a vegan based upon my own merits, and decisions regarding not killing animals for food. The arguements that people present to me on a regular basis really get to me. "We'd have to stop farming cows if everyone suddenly became vegan! Would you want them to die out?" Well, actually, I have no real issue with that. Ditto sheep, or any other animal that we farm purely for meat/eggs/milk. Phasing out entire species just because we've created them to eat seems more logical than slaughtering 10bn animals a year. To me, anyway.
As a final statement though: You're a carnivore...I get it. That's fine. However, I'm not. That should be fine as well. Why is it, that when I say something regarding animal rights I'm "preaching", and when you mock me, or attempt with a (usually piss poor) argument to somehow say what I'm doing is wrong are you just "sticking up for what you believe in". I'm aware I'm a minority, but if I don't preach to you, please don't feel the need to inform me how wrong I am while you're justifying the killing of another creature because you don't want to give it up because it tastes nice.
ETA: The preaching is on both sides, to the people in the thread that just assume it's us that preaches to you. There's plenty of meat eaters that are 100% fine to ram their habits down my throat, but I'm not allowed to do it to you because I'm outside of the norm. In fact, from what I've seen, meat eaters are WORSE about it. All I have to do is mention I'm a vegan before everyone starts calling me abnormal. So, whatever you may think, you're considerably more preachy. 
|
On September 21 2012 07:11 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 07:08 wei2coolman wrote:On September 21 2012 07:03 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 06:48 wei2coolman wrote:On September 21 2012 06:46 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 06:40 wei2coolman wrote:On September 21 2012 06:36 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 06:32 wei2coolman wrote:On September 21 2012 06:30 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 06:26 JinDesu wrote:
[quote]
Gotta justify the change, after all.
I prefer the other poster's thought - moderation. I don't find anything moderate about killing an animal or abusing an animal for milk/eggs. I think we can have a discussion about veganism without the PETA tag lines. For the record, I f*cking hate PETA! Their advertizements are often misogynistic and exploit women's bodies to achieve thier goals. I would like to know why you think eating animals ISN'T extreme? It's natural, no? Lions eat zebras and stuff. Sharks eat fish. I don't see any protests against Lions from eating zebras and gazelles, do I? Sure I think most people should cut down on their meat consumptions, out of health reasons, but I don't see any inherent moral wrong doing out of the current meat eating society. Defining in what sense you mean it is "natural"? That term is subjective. I, now, "naturally" don't eat animals or animal products. We are not lions, sharks, or zebras, we are humans. Invoking other species is not relevant. Also, I am giving an ethical argument for veganism. Morals are something entirely different. eating animals "isn't extreme" because it happens in other species, so much so that they cause natural extinction patterns. Clearly my use of normal, was in terms of the idea of consuming meat on a universal scale, not on individual. No need to twist my words, you clearly knew what I meant. It is very much so relevant. Humans are omnivorous. just look at human evolution patterns, we have enzymes to digest meat, our bodies were made to do it. No one here is claiming being vegan is bad. We just don't want to hear vegans complain about how meat eating is bad, when it's an obvious biological inclination. Just like humans can choose to go without sex, but I don't want virgins bitching at people who do have sex because they have sex. No, using the world "normal" implies judment because what is normal is a social construct. Again, you cannot reference what other species do when I am giving an ethical argument for HUMANS not to eat animals. Other species do their own thing and we should minimize out inference in their lives. It does NOT matter what humans did in the past in terms of meat consumption, only the future. Humans don't have to eat meat, I am proof of that. Humans can make ethical choices, and we can choose not to eat meat. The sex example is a bad one. Obstaining from sex only affect that person. Eating animals affects animals. No, the word normal means average, and guess what, averages can be measured. This prosecution martyr attitude is the exact reason why regular people dislike vegans. And my sex comment was in reference to Vegan's holier than art thou attitude, not necessarily the subject at hand. You have to prove that there's an ethical problem with eating meat, The burden of proof is on you, not me. I invite you to visit the places where your food actually comes from, and not where you think it comes from. Anyone who thinks a factory farm is in anyway ethical is someone I can't have a reasonable discussion with, If we went back to small family farms, with a few cows or what not, I would still have a problem eating meat, but then we could have an actual discussion that would be civil. If you defend the current meat on the market, which is all from factory farms and all the animals are treated unethically, then I don't really think much of your opinion. We would not be able to eat meat the way we do as a society without factory farms, meat would be much more expensive and very rare.
This is pretty wrong. With a little research you can find meat products where none of the shit you think happens to everything happens. It wouldn't be much more expensive nor would it be rare because that's already going on and it's marginally more expensive. The reality is we overproduce the SHIT out of it for no reason and most of it gets thrown out.
|
On September 21 2012 07:16 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 07:14 wei2coolman wrote:
Implying I haven't. My parents use to run a small grocery story, dad was a butcher. Use to do weekly runs to Farmer John w/ father as a kid to where they did the killing of da cows. Yeah, I know where meat comes from. Also, my dad came from a small farm in Taiwan, where it was common to kill chicken, cows, etc etc, with your own hands.
So yeah, I'd say have a pretty fucking good idea.
Seriously, why do people assume so much? You know when I was a kid implies the past... Factory farms have evolved since then. I assume you are a decent human being and would not defend current methods of raising animals for slaughter. I assume since you are defending eating meat in today's world, you don't understand where today's meat comes from.
Kid, is more like 14 years ago. I'm not that old T.T I'm only 21...
|
On September 21 2012 06:53 Acritter wrote:
Consider this.
What use would there be for dairy cows and slaughterhouse cows if we did not eat meat or drink milk? Answer: none. What is the likelihood of those cows being able to survive and thrive in the wild if we set them loose? Answer: none. So if we stop drinking milk and eating meat, we are going to send all of these cows to extinction.
Right. But humans domesticated and bred cattle to cater their own purposes, i.e. being efficient milk/meat-machines that wouldn't have a chance of surviving on their own, in the first place.
Is it crueler to milk and cull a few cows, or wipe them from the face of the Earth?
The former, obviously, disregarding the fact that "a few" might be a slight understatement. If you change your perspective on animals for once, regarding them as individuals instead of some collective mass, you might get the point. Better to not exist than to lead a short and miserable life.
I can understand vegetarianism. It's just fine to say "hey, I don't want to get my food from killing animals." I don't personally subscribe to that logic, but I see where those guys are coming from. But to say that even milking cows that were BRED for producing far more milk than their calves could ever drink is CRUELTY?
Those vegan guys are coming from exactly the same direction Cows that are bred to produce milk are some sort of abomination with ridiculously huge udders. Their calves usually do not get a drop of that mother's milk but are fed with some kind of replacement, and apart from that they'll be slaughtered shortly after their birth anyways. Last but not least do those cows get killed once they do not produce a big enough amount of milk anymore for being cost-efficient. So, the logic of vegans doesn't really differ much from that of vegetarians. It's about not supporting abuse and killing of animals. Kind of simple, actually.
Well, you've got to be an absolute idiot to think that for a second.
Plz do your research before insulting. Thx.
|
On September 21 2012 07:08 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 07:03 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 06:48 wei2coolman wrote:On September 21 2012 06:46 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 06:40 wei2coolman wrote:On September 21 2012 06:36 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 06:32 wei2coolman wrote:On September 21 2012 06:30 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 06:26 JinDesu wrote:On September 21 2012 06:25 kingcoyote wrote:
[quote]
As someone who has been vegetarian since birth, I can say I've noticed a very distinct inverse correlation between how long someone has been a vegetarian and how much of a dick they are about it. The recent converts are the absolute worst about that kind of stuff. Gotta justify the change, after all. I prefer the other poster's thought - moderation. I don't find anything moderate about killing an animal or abusing an animal for milk/eggs. I think we can have a discussion about veganism without the PETA tag lines. For the record, I f*cking hate PETA! Their advertizements are often misogynistic and exploit women's bodies to achieve thier goals. I would like to know why you think eating animals ISN'T extreme? It's natural, no? Lions eat zebras and stuff. Sharks eat fish. I don't see any protests against Lions from eating zebras and gazelles, do I? Sure I think most people should cut down on their meat consumptions, out of health reasons, but I don't see any inherent moral wrong doing out of the current meat eating society. Defining in what sense you mean it is "natural"? That term is subjective. I, now, "naturally" don't eat animals or animal products. We are not lions, sharks, or zebras, we are humans. Invoking other species is not relevant. Also, I am giving an ethical argument for veganism. Morals are something entirely different. eating animals "isn't extreme" because it happens in other species, so much so that they cause natural extinction patterns. Clearly my use of normal, was in terms of the idea of consuming meat on a universal scale, not on individual. No need to twist my words, you clearly knew what I meant. It is very much so relevant. Humans are omnivorous. just look at human evolution patterns, we have enzymes to digest meat, our bodies were made to do it. No one here is claiming being vegan is bad. We just don't want to hear vegans complain about how meat eating is bad, when it's an obvious biological inclination. Just like humans can choose to go without sex, but I don't want virgins bitching at people who do have sex because they have sex. No, using the world "normal" implies judment because what is normal is a social construct. Again, you cannot reference what other species do when I am giving an ethical argument for HUMANS not to eat animals. Other species do their own thing and we should minimize out inference in their lives. It does NOT matter what humans did in the past in terms of meat consumption, only the future. Humans don't have to eat meat, I am proof of that. Humans can make ethical choices, and we can choose not to eat meat. The sex example is a bad one. Obstaining from sex only affect that person. Eating animals affects animals. No, the word normal means average, and guess what, averages can be measured. This prosecution martyr attitude is the exact reason why regular people dislike vegans. And my sex comment was in reference to Vegan's holier than art thou attitude, not necessarily the subject at hand. You have to prove that there's an ethical problem with eating meat, The burden of proof is on you, not me.
Nope, you might be thinking that a Normal Distrubution has an average, which it does. But the word "normal" implies judgment and is socally constructed and enforced.
Here is my ethical argument:
Eating animals is speciesist. I reject speciesim:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciesism
Indeed what animals society deems acceptable to eat proves the point. Why do some cultures eat dogs and some not? Because some cultures have elevated dogs to companion animal status above other animals. In contrast, farmed animals have been placed at the bottom and slaughtered for food. For the record, I am also again all forms of animal testing.
Speciesism acts in the same way as sexism, racism, or an other -ism. It is enforeced by dominate culture and often operates without explicit thought or knowledge. I reject all forms of discrimation, including that against other species.
This is why I am vegan.
|
On September 21 2012 07:17 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 07:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 07:08 wei2coolman wrote:On September 21 2012 07:03 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 06:48 wei2coolman wrote:On September 21 2012 06:46 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 06:40 wei2coolman wrote:On September 21 2012 06:36 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 06:32 wei2coolman wrote:On September 21 2012 06:30 SolonTLG wrote:
[quote]
I don't find anything moderate about killing an animal or abusing an animal for milk/eggs. I think we can have a discussion about veganism without the PETA tag lines. For the record, I f*cking hate PETA! Their advertizements are often misogynistic and exploit women's bodies to achieve thier goals. I would like to know why you think eating animals ISN'T extreme? It's natural, no? Lions eat zebras and stuff. Sharks eat fish. I don't see any protests against Lions from eating zebras and gazelles, do I? Sure I think most people should cut down on their meat consumptions, out of health reasons, but I don't see any inherent moral wrong doing out of the current meat eating society. Defining in what sense you mean it is "natural"? That term is subjective. I, now, "naturally" don't eat animals or animal products. We are not lions, sharks, or zebras, we are humans. Invoking other species is not relevant. Also, I am giving an ethical argument for veganism. Morals are something entirely different. eating animals "isn't extreme" because it happens in other species, so much so that they cause natural extinction patterns. Clearly my use of normal, was in terms of the idea of consuming meat on a universal scale, not on individual. No need to twist my words, you clearly knew what I meant. It is very much so relevant. Humans are omnivorous. just look at human evolution patterns, we have enzymes to digest meat, our bodies were made to do it. No one here is claiming being vegan is bad. We just don't want to hear vegans complain about how meat eating is bad, when it's an obvious biological inclination. Just like humans can choose to go without sex, but I don't want virgins bitching at people who do have sex because they have sex. No, using the world "normal" implies judment because what is normal is a social construct. Again, you cannot reference what other species do when I am giving an ethical argument for HUMANS not to eat animals. Other species do their own thing and we should minimize out inference in their lives. It does NOT matter what humans did in the past in terms of meat consumption, only the future. Humans don't have to eat meat, I am proof of that. Humans can make ethical choices, and we can choose not to eat meat. The sex example is a bad one. Obstaining from sex only affect that person. Eating animals affects animals. No, the word normal means average, and guess what, averages can be measured. This prosecution martyr attitude is the exact reason why regular people dislike vegans. And my sex comment was in reference to Vegan's holier than art thou attitude, not necessarily the subject at hand. You have to prove that there's an ethical problem with eating meat, The burden of proof is on you, not me. I invite you to visit the places where your food actually comes from, and not where you think it comes from. Anyone who thinks a factory farm is in anyway ethical is someone I can't have a reasonable discussion with, If we went back to small family farms, with a few cows or what not, I would still have a problem eating meat, but then we could have an actual discussion that would be civil. If you defend the current meat on the market, which is all from factory farms and all the animals are treated unethically, then I don't really think much of your opinion. We would not be able to eat meat the way we do as a society without factory farms, meat would be much more expensive and very rare. The people of Argentina and Uruguay would like to have a word. Both consumer some of the highest amounts of beef per capita (I believe Uruguay is #1), and are almost totally bereft of factory farming. Furthermore, there are many large scale cow and chicken farms in the US that are not "factory" in design, and yet still produce huge amounts of food. My point is that your indictment of scale of consumption is a fantasy.
I might consider more things factory farms then you, which probably changes the discussion. Basically any large scale slaughter of animals is a factory too me, I can not stand by and watch as thousands of animals are slaughtered for food when there are alternatives. I am now abandoning this thread, I have tried to defend vegans on TL in the past, and it always makes me frustrated and sad, good luck fellow vegans who are better debaters than I.
|
On September 21 2012 07:09 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 06:59 Feartheguru wrote:
That study you described sounds SEVERELY flawed. The people who ate less meat are the poorer ones ( a rule of thumb in rural villages in China) who are more likely to have the diseases they looked for. Well if anything that would only strengthen his point wouldn't it :-) If I remember correctly from the China study the cluster with the highest consumption of meat was indeed the least healthy. HOWEVER, the cluster with the lowest (or non-) consumption of meat was not at all the healthiest, and outperformed by the clusters with a more balanced diet and moderate meat consumption. So, all other flaws the study might have aside, you could use it to argue against overconsumption of meat, but much less as an argument in favor of vegetarianism.
Agreed. There are many flaws in that study. The media loves to create uninformed drama though.
http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/
|
On September 21 2012 07:19 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 07:17 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2012 07:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 07:08 wei2coolman wrote:On September 21 2012 07:03 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 06:48 wei2coolman wrote:On September 21 2012 06:46 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 06:40 wei2coolman wrote:On September 21 2012 06:36 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 06:32 wei2coolman wrote:
[quote]
I think we can have a discussion about veganism without the PETA tag lines.
For the record, I f*cking hate PETA! Their advertizements are often misogynistic and exploit women's bodies to achieve thier goals. I would like to know why you think eating animals ISN'T extreme? It's natural, no? Lions eat zebras and stuff. Sharks eat fish. I don't see any protests against Lions from eating zebras and gazelles, do I? Sure I think most people should cut down on their meat consumptions, out of health reasons, but I don't see any inherent moral wrong doing out of the current meat eating society. Defining in what sense you mean it is "natural"? That term is subjective. I, now, "naturally" don't eat animals or animal products. We are not lions, sharks, or zebras, we are humans. Invoking other species is not relevant. Also, I am giving an ethical argument for veganism. Morals are something entirely different. eating animals "isn't extreme" because it happens in other species, so much so that they cause natural extinction patterns. Clearly my use of normal, was in terms of the idea of consuming meat on a universal scale, not on individual. No need to twist my words, you clearly knew what I meant. It is very much so relevant. Humans are omnivorous. just look at human evolution patterns, we have enzymes to digest meat, our bodies were made to do it. No one here is claiming being vegan is bad. We just don't want to hear vegans complain about how meat eating is bad, when it's an obvious biological inclination. Just like humans can choose to go without sex, but I don't want virgins bitching at people who do have sex because they have sex. No, using the world "normal" implies judment because what is normal is a social construct. Again, you cannot reference what other species do when I am giving an ethical argument for HUMANS not to eat animals. Other species do their own thing and we should minimize out inference in their lives. It does NOT matter what humans did in the past in terms of meat consumption, only the future. Humans don't have to eat meat, I am proof of that. Humans can make ethical choices, and we can choose not to eat meat. The sex example is a bad one. Obstaining from sex only affect that person. Eating animals affects animals. No, the word normal means average, and guess what, averages can be measured. This prosecution martyr attitude is the exact reason why regular people dislike vegans. And my sex comment was in reference to Vegan's holier than art thou attitude, not necessarily the subject at hand. You have to prove that there's an ethical problem with eating meat, The burden of proof is on you, not me. I invite you to visit the places where your food actually comes from, and not where you think it comes from. Anyone who thinks a factory farm is in anyway ethical is someone I can't have a reasonable discussion with, If we went back to small family farms, with a few cows or what not, I would still have a problem eating meat, but then we could have an actual discussion that would be civil. If you defend the current meat on the market, which is all from factory farms and all the animals are treated unethically, then I don't really think much of your opinion. We would not be able to eat meat the way we do as a society without factory farms, meat would be much more expensive and very rare. The people of Argentina and Uruguay would like to have a word. Both consumer some of the highest amounts of beef per capita (I believe Uruguay is #1), and are almost totally bereft of factory farming. Furthermore, there are many large scale cow and chicken farms in the US that are not "factory" in design, and yet still produce huge amounts of food. My point is that your indictment of scale of consumption is a fantasy. I might consider more things factory farms then you, which probably changes the discussion. Basically any large scale slaughter of animals is a factory too me.
Well it is rather shortsighted of you to write off entire cultures of the world based merely on your lack of comfort with their rate of consumption. I daresay the gauchos know more about cows than you, and yet, because they eat beef as part of pretty much every meal, you aren't even willing to discuss ethics with them? Being narrow minded to the point of obstinance is not an appealing trait.
|
On September 21 2012 07:17 Rohan wrote:
Before I start, going to say: Been a veggie since birth, switched over to veganism for various reasons: ethical issues, health problems and in all honesty, because I wanted a change.
Now: I lead a very active life. I work in a very physically and mentally demanding job, have played various sports for my county and country, and I've never had a problem with protein. Even while working out seriously, and requiring huge amounts of protein, I've barely had to supplement with a protein shake. Even if I had to, Soy & Brown Rice are totally fine.
It's a common misconception that vegans are "healthier" though. It's very easy to eat a junk food diet as a vegan, since lots of stuff that's junk food(: Soda, fries, chips, etc. etc.) is perfectly fine for us to eat. It's not fine in a health way though, we need to eat a broader diet of beans, green leaves and so on to stay healthy. In the same way that a meat eater has to, largely, do the same. Studies either way are largely flawed, sadly, so there's no real way of getting a clear cut example here.
The sad thing I find is this:
I choose to be a vegan based upon my own merits, and decisions regarding not killing animals for food. The arguements that people present to me on a regular basis really get to me. "We'd have to stop farming cows if everyone suddenly became vegan! Would you want them to die out?" Well, actually, I have no real issue with that. Ditto sheep, or any other animal that we farm purely for meat/eggs/milk. Phasing out entire species just because we've created them to eat seems more logical than slaughtering 10bn animals a year. To me, anyway.
As a final statement though: You're a carnivore...I get it. That's fine. However, I'm not. That should be fine as well. Why is it, that when I say something regarding animal rights I'm "preaching", and when you mock me, or attempt with a (usually piss poor) argument to somehow say what I'm doing is wrong are you just "sticking up for what you believe in". I'm aware I'm a minority, but if I don't preach to you, please don't feel the need to inform me how wrong I am while you're justifying the killing of another creature because you don't want to give it up because it tastes nice.
In case you were wondering, it's shit like that. It's because the conversation starts that way and not the other way around. Very few people actually aggressively attack people when they learn they're vegans. The reality is that few people give a shit about your life style choices and quite frankly I can't be bothered to talk to you about it unless I actually have some kind of relationship to you.
The reason it's considered preaching is because whether you like it or not it comes off as accusatory and as if that person could do anything about it. Yeah, if literally everyone stopped eating animal products there would be more animals and there's good/bad ramifications to that. Similarly if everyone in the world was just nice to each other everyone would be happier, but that's not exactly going to just happen and a single person has absolutely no influence on it if for no other reason than the fact that trolls actually exist in reality.
|
nothing convinces me more than a good steak... don't get wrong vegefood is tasty, still i always feel it always lack that meaty/fishy/eggy touch needed for a perfect lunch
|
On September 21 2012 07:19 SolonTLG wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 07:08 wei2coolman wrote:On September 21 2012 07:03 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 06:48 wei2coolman wrote:On September 21 2012 06:46 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 06:40 wei2coolman wrote:On September 21 2012 06:36 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 06:32 wei2coolman wrote:On September 21 2012 06:30 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 06:26 JinDesu wrote:
[quote]
Gotta justify the change, after all.
I prefer the other poster's thought - moderation. I don't find anything moderate about killing an animal or abusing an animal for milk/eggs. I think we can have a discussion about veganism without the PETA tag lines. For the record, I f*cking hate PETA! Their advertizements are often misogynistic and exploit women's bodies to achieve thier goals. I would like to know why you think eating animals ISN'T extreme? It's natural, no? Lions eat zebras and stuff. Sharks eat fish. I don't see any protests against Lions from eating zebras and gazelles, do I? Sure I think most people should cut down on their meat consumptions, out of health reasons, but I don't see any inherent moral wrong doing out of the current meat eating society. Defining in what sense you mean it is "natural"? That term is subjective. I, now, "naturally" don't eat animals or animal products. We are not lions, sharks, or zebras, we are humans. Invoking other species is not relevant. Also, I am giving an ethical argument for veganism. Morals are something entirely different. eating animals "isn't extreme" because it happens in other species, so much so that they cause natural extinction patterns. Clearly my use of normal, was in terms of the idea of consuming meat on a universal scale, not on individual. No need to twist my words, you clearly knew what I meant. It is very much so relevant. Humans are omnivorous. just look at human evolution patterns, we have enzymes to digest meat, our bodies were made to do it. No one here is claiming being vegan is bad. We just don't want to hear vegans complain about how meat eating is bad, when it's an obvious biological inclination. Just like humans can choose to go without sex, but I don't want virgins bitching at people who do have sex because they have sex. No, using the world "normal" implies judment because what is normal is a social construct. Again, you cannot reference what other species do when I am giving an ethical argument for HUMANS not to eat animals. Other species do their own thing and we should minimize out inference in their lives. It does NOT matter what humans did in the past in terms of meat consumption, only the future. Humans don't have to eat meat, I am proof of that. Humans can make ethical choices, and we can choose not to eat meat. The sex example is a bad one. Obstaining from sex only affect that person. Eating animals affects animals. No, the word normal means average, and guess what, averages can be measured. This prosecution martyr attitude is the exact reason why regular people dislike vegans. And my sex comment was in reference to Vegan's holier than art thou attitude, not necessarily the subject at hand. You have to prove that there's an ethical problem with eating meat, The burden of proof is on you, not me. Nope, you might be thinking that a Normal Distrubution has an average, which it does. But the word "normal" implies judgment and is socally constructed and enforced. Here is my argument: Eating animals is speciesist. I reject speciesim: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpeciesismIndeed what animals society deems acceptable to eat proves the point. Why do some cultures eat dogs and some not? Because some cultures have elevated dogs to companion animal status above other animals. In contrast, farmed animals have been placed at the bottom and slaughtered for food. For the record, I am also again all forms of animal testing. Speciesism acts in the same way as sexism, racism, or an other -ism. It is enforeced by dominate culture and often operates without explicit thought or knowledge. This is why I am vegan.
I bet you've eaten insects before while you're sleeping. Technically you're not a vegan.
|
Although you are right that poor nutrition can lead to cancer you fail to realize what poor nutrition is. Nutrition is providing your body with the nutrients it needs to survive. Your body needs very little carbs and, as you mentioned, highly refined carbs are horrible for you. However, continuing with this definition of nutrition you cannot dispute the fact that animal products along with vegetables provide the most nutritious diet with macronutrients (fat and protein) coming from animal products and vitamins and minerals and limited carb intake coming from the healthy vegetable intake
Edited to dispute another claim:
Although it is possible to obtain nutrition from a vegan diet you are not taking into account the negatives that many of these products on you. Gluten is the most obvious example as it has recently been shown that at least 1/3 people are sensitive to gluten. Many other vegetables give bad nutrients to the body and can cause damage.
|
Not a vegan myself, but a lot of my close friends are vegans. All I'll say is, if you're not vegan, and think vegan food is "shitty" or "rabbit food" or whatever else... You're wrong. I've had some vegan food that is pretty delicious. Shared a vegan pizza with my friend the other day that was absolutely amazing.
|
On September 21 2012 07:22 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 07:19 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 07:08 wei2coolman wrote:On September 21 2012 07:03 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 06:48 wei2coolman wrote:On September 21 2012 06:46 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 06:40 wei2coolman wrote:On September 21 2012 06:36 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 06:32 wei2coolman wrote:On September 21 2012 06:30 SolonTLG wrote:
[quote]
I don't find anything moderate about killing an animal or abusing an animal for milk/eggs. I think we can have a discussion about veganism without the PETA tag lines. For the record, I f*cking hate PETA! Their advertizements are often misogynistic and exploit women's bodies to achieve thier goals. I would like to know why you think eating animals ISN'T extreme? It's natural, no? Lions eat zebras and stuff. Sharks eat fish. I don't see any protests against Lions from eating zebras and gazelles, do I? Sure I think most people should cut down on their meat consumptions, out of health reasons, but I don't see any inherent moral wrong doing out of the current meat eating society. Defining in what sense you mean it is "natural"? That term is subjective. I, now, "naturally" don't eat animals or animal products. We are not lions, sharks, or zebras, we are humans. Invoking other species is not relevant. Also, I am giving an ethical argument for veganism. Morals are something entirely different. eating animals "isn't extreme" because it happens in other species, so much so that they cause natural extinction patterns. Clearly my use of normal, was in terms of the idea of consuming meat on a universal scale, not on individual. No need to twist my words, you clearly knew what I meant. It is very much so relevant. Humans are omnivorous. just look at human evolution patterns, we have enzymes to digest meat, our bodies were made to do it. No one here is claiming being vegan is bad. We just don't want to hear vegans complain about how meat eating is bad, when it's an obvious biological inclination. Just like humans can choose to go without sex, but I don't want virgins bitching at people who do have sex because they have sex. No, using the world "normal" implies judment because what is normal is a social construct. Again, you cannot reference what other species do when I am giving an ethical argument for HUMANS not to eat animals. Other species do their own thing and we should minimize out inference in their lives. It does NOT matter what humans did in the past in terms of meat consumption, only the future. Humans don't have to eat meat, I am proof of that. Humans can make ethical choices, and we can choose not to eat meat. The sex example is a bad one. Obstaining from sex only affect that person. Eating animals affects animals. No, the word normal means average, and guess what, averages can be measured. This prosecution martyr attitude is the exact reason why regular people dislike vegans. And my sex comment was in reference to Vegan's holier than art thou attitude, not necessarily the subject at hand. You have to prove that there's an ethical problem with eating meat, The burden of proof is on you, not me. Nope, you might be thinking that a Normal Distrubution has an average, which it does. But the word "normal" implies judgment and is socally constructed and enforced. Here is my argument: Eating animals is speciesist. I reject speciesism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpeciesismIndeed what animals society deems acceptable to eat proves the point. Why do some cultures eat dogs and some not? Because some cultures have elevated dogs to companion animal status above other animals. In contrast, farmed animals have been placed at the bottom and slaughtered for food. For the record, I am also again all forms of animal testing. Speciesism acts in the same way as sexism, racism, or an other -ism. It is enforeced by dominate culture and often operates without explicit thought or knowledge. This is why I am vegan. I bet you've eaten insects before while you're sleeping. Technically you're not a vegan.
If that's all you've got in response to my ethical argument for veganism based on speciesism, then I am done with this conversation. I will give you 5 minutes to respond.
|
On September 21 2012 07:22 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 07:19 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 07:08 wei2coolman wrote:On September 21 2012 07:03 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 06:48 wei2coolman wrote:On September 21 2012 06:46 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 06:40 wei2coolman wrote:On September 21 2012 06:36 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 06:32 wei2coolman wrote:On September 21 2012 06:30 SolonTLG wrote:
[quote]
I don't find anything moderate about killing an animal or abusing an animal for milk/eggs. I think we can have a discussion about veganism without the PETA tag lines. For the record, I f*cking hate PETA! Their advertizements are often misogynistic and exploit women's bodies to achieve thier goals. I would like to know why you think eating animals ISN'T extreme? It's natural, no? Lions eat zebras and stuff. Sharks eat fish. I don't see any protests against Lions from eating zebras and gazelles, do I? Sure I think most people should cut down on their meat consumptions, out of health reasons, but I don't see any inherent moral wrong doing out of the current meat eating society. Defining in what sense you mean it is "natural"? That term is subjective. I, now, "naturally" don't eat animals or animal products. We are not lions, sharks, or zebras, we are humans. Invoking other species is not relevant. Also, I am giving an ethical argument for veganism. Morals are something entirely different. eating animals "isn't extreme" because it happens in other species, so much so that they cause natural extinction patterns. Clearly my use of normal, was in terms of the idea of consuming meat on a universal scale, not on individual. No need to twist my words, you clearly knew what I meant. It is very much so relevant. Humans are omnivorous. just look at human evolution patterns, we have enzymes to digest meat, our bodies were made to do it. No one here is claiming being vegan is bad. We just don't want to hear vegans complain about how meat eating is bad, when it's an obvious biological inclination. Just like humans can choose to go without sex, but I don't want virgins bitching at people who do have sex because they have sex. No, using the world "normal" implies judment because what is normal is a social construct. Again, you cannot reference what other species do when I am giving an ethical argument for HUMANS not to eat animals. Other species do their own thing and we should minimize out inference in their lives. It does NOT matter what humans did in the past in terms of meat consumption, only the future. Humans don't have to eat meat, I am proof of that. Humans can make ethical choices, and we can choose not to eat meat. The sex example is a bad one. Obstaining from sex only affect that person. Eating animals affects animals. No, the word normal means average, and guess what, averages can be measured. This prosecution martyr attitude is the exact reason why regular people dislike vegans. And my sex comment was in reference to Vegan's holier than art thou attitude, not necessarily the subject at hand. You have to prove that there's an ethical problem with eating meat, The burden of proof is on you, not me. Nope, you might be thinking that a Normal Distrubution has an average, which it does. But the word "normal" implies judgment and is socally constructed and enforced. Here is my argument: Eating animals is speciesist. I reject speciesim: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpeciesismIndeed what animals society deems acceptable to eat proves the point. Why do some cultures eat dogs and some not? Because some cultures have elevated dogs to companion animal status above other animals. In contrast, farmed animals have been placed at the bottom and slaughtered for food. For the record, I am also again all forms of animal testing. Speciesism acts in the same way as sexism, racism, or an other -ism. It is enforeced by dominate culture and often operates without explicit thought or knowledge. This is why I am vegan. I bet you've eaten insects before while you're sleeping. Technically you're not a vegan.
Who freaking cares? He also probably doesn't sustain 100% from animal products in other places in his life. He's making an effort, and he probably does a pretty damn good job. I doubt some insects while he's sleeping is going to change his mind, that wasn't a conscious decision.
|
On September 21 2012 07:22 Kich wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 07:17 Rohan wrote:
Before I start, going to say: Been a veggie since birth, switched over to veganism for various reasons: ethical issues, health problems and in all honesty, because I wanted a change.
Now: I lead a very active life. I work in a very physically and mentally demanding job, have played various sports for my county and country, and I've never had a problem with protein. Even while working out seriously, and requiring huge amounts of protein, I've barely had to supplement with a protein shake. Even if I had to, Soy & Brown Rice are totally fine.
It's a common misconception that vegans are "healthier" though. It's very easy to eat a junk food diet as a vegan, since lots of stuff that's junk food(: Soda, fries, chips, etc. etc.) is perfectly fine for us to eat. It's not fine in a health way though, we need to eat a broader diet of beans, green leaves and so on to stay healthy. In the same way that a meat eater has to, largely, do the same. Studies either way are largely flawed, sadly, so there's no real way of getting a clear cut example here.
The sad thing I find is this:
I choose to be a vegan based upon my own merits, and decisions regarding not killing animals for food. The arguements that people present to me on a regular basis really get to me. "We'd have to stop farming cows if everyone suddenly became vegan! Would you want them to die out?" Well, actually, I have no real issue with that. Ditto sheep, or any other animal that we farm purely for meat/eggs/milk. Phasing out entire species just because we've created them to eat seems more logical than slaughtering 10bn animals a year. To me, anyway.
As a final statement though: You're a carnivore...I get it. That's fine. However, I'm not. That should be fine as well. Why is it, that when I say something regarding animal rights I'm "preaching", and when you mock me, or attempt with a (usually piss poor) argument to somehow say what I'm doing is wrong are you just "sticking up for what you believe in". I'm aware I'm a minority, but if I don't preach to you, please don't feel the need to inform me how wrong I am while you're justifying the killing of another creature because you don't want to give it up because it tastes nice.
In case you were wondering, it's shit like that. It's because the conversation starts that way and not the other way around. Very few people actually aggressively attack people when they learn they're vegans. The reality is that few people give a shit about your life style choices and quite frankly I can't be bothered to talk to you about it unless I actually have some kind of relationship to you.
The reason it's considered preaching is because whether you like it or not it comes off as accusatory and as if that person could do anything about it. Yeah, if literally everyone stopped eating animal products there would be more animals and there's good/bad ramifications to that. Similarly if everyone in the world was just nice to each other everyone would be happier, but that's not exactly going to just happen and a single person has absolutely no influence on it if for no other reason than the fact that trolls actually exist in reality.
Nope, I've had people learn I'm a vegan and come over literally JUST to poke fun at me. Yep, lots of Vegans do preach their beliefs to other people. Lots of people who eat meat are happy to preach their beliefs at me. Loudly.
If it's a matter of ethics, well, the leg you're all standing on of: "Well we've always done it.." is...not good. Shows a certain lack of...erm, progression?
|
On September 21 2012 07:22 Kich wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 07:17 Rohan wrote:
Before I start, going to say: Been a veggie since birth, switched over to veganism for various reasons: ethical issues, health problems and in all honesty, because I wanted a change.
Now: I lead a very active life. I work in a very physically and mentally demanding job, have played various sports for my county and country, and I've never had a problem with protein. Even while working out seriously, and requiring huge amounts of protein, I've barely had to supplement with a protein shake. Even if I had to, Soy & Brown Rice are totally fine.
It's a common misconception that vegans are "healthier" though. It's very easy to eat a junk food diet as a vegan, since lots of stuff that's junk food(: Soda, fries, chips, etc. etc.) is perfectly fine for us to eat. It's not fine in a health way though, we need to eat a broader diet of beans, green leaves and so on to stay healthy. In the same way that a meat eater has to, largely, do the same. Studies either way are largely flawed, sadly, so there's no real way of getting a clear cut example here.
The sad thing I find is this:
I choose to be a vegan based upon my own merits, and decisions regarding not killing animals for food. The arguements that people present to me on a regular basis really get to me. "We'd have to stop farming cows if everyone suddenly became vegan! Would you want them to die out?" Well, actually, I have no real issue with that. Ditto sheep, or any other animal that we farm purely for meat/eggs/milk. Phasing out entire species just because we've created them to eat seems more logical than slaughtering 10bn animals a year. To me, anyway.
As a final statement though: You're a carnivore...I get it. That's fine. However, I'm not. That should be fine as well. Why is it, that when I say something regarding animal rights I'm "preaching", and when you mock me, or attempt with a (usually piss poor) argument to somehow say what I'm doing is wrong are you just "sticking up for what you believe in". I'm aware I'm a minority, but if I don't preach to you, please don't feel the need to inform me how wrong I am while you're justifying the killing of another creature because you don't want to give it up because it tastes nice. In case you were wondering, it's shit like that. It's because the conversation starts that way and not the other way around. Very few people actually aggressively attack people when they learn they're vegans. The reality is that few people give a shit about your life style choices and quite frankly I can't be bothered to talk to you about it unless I actually have some kind of relationship to you. The reason it's considered preaching is because whether you like it or not it comes off as accusatory and as if that person could do anything about it. Yeah, if literally everyone stopped eating animal products there would be more animals and there's good/bad ramifications to that. Similarly if everyone in the world was just nice to each other everyone would be happier, but that's not exactly going to just happen and a single person has absolutely no influence on it if for no other reason than the fact that trolls actually exist in reality.
Speaking from experience as a vegetarian, I catch (playful) flak when I'm out eating with certain friends. Chosing a uncommon view makes one rife for critiquing.
|
On September 21 2012 07:25 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 07:22 wei2coolman wrote:On September 21 2012 07:19 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 07:08 wei2coolman wrote:On September 21 2012 07:03 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 06:48 wei2coolman wrote:On September 21 2012 06:46 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 06:40 wei2coolman wrote:On September 21 2012 06:36 SolonTLG wrote:On September 21 2012 06:32 wei2coolman wrote:
[quote]
I think we can have a discussion about veganism without the PETA tag lines.
For the record, I f*cking hate PETA! Their advertizements are often misogynistic and exploit women's bodies to achieve thier goals. I would like to know why you think eating animals ISN'T extreme? It's natural, no? Lions eat zebras and stuff. Sharks eat fish. I don't see any protests against Lions from eating zebras and gazelles, do I? Sure I think most people should cut down on their meat consumptions, out of health reasons, but I don't see any inherent moral wrong doing out of the current meat eating society. Defining in what sense you mean it is "natural"? That term is subjective. I, now, "naturally" don't eat animals or animal products. We are not lions, sharks, or zebras, we are humans. Invoking other species is not relevant. Also, I am giving an ethical argument for veganism. Morals are something entirely different. eating animals "isn't extreme" because it happens in other species, so much so that they cause natural extinction patterns. Clearly my use of normal, was in terms of the idea of consuming meat on a universal scale, not on individual. No need to twist my words, you clearly knew what I meant. It is very much so relevant. Humans are omnivorous. just look at human evolution patterns, we have enzymes to digest meat, our bodies were made to do it. No one here is claiming being vegan is bad. We just don't want to hear vegans complain about how meat eating is bad, when it's an obvious biological inclination. Just like humans can choose to go without sex, but I don't want virgins bitching at people who do have sex because they have sex. No, using the world "normal" implies judment because what is normal is a social construct. Again, you cannot reference what other species do when I am giving an ethical argument for HUMANS not to eat animals. Other species do their own thing and we should minimize out inference in their lives. It does NOT matter what humans did in the past in terms of meat consumption, only the future. Humans don't have to eat meat, I am proof of that. Humans can make ethical choices, and we can choose not to eat meat. The sex example is a bad one. Obstaining from sex only affect that person. Eating animals affects animals. No, the word normal means average, and guess what, averages can be measured. This prosecution martyr attitude is the exact reason why regular people dislike vegans. And my sex comment was in reference to Vegan's holier than art thou attitude, not necessarily the subject at hand. You have to prove that there's an ethical problem with eating meat, The burden of proof is on you, not me. Nope, you might be thinking that a Normal Distrubution has an average, which it does. But the word "normal" implies judgment and is socally constructed and enforced. Here is my argument: Eating animals is speciesist. I reject speciesim: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpeciesismIndeed what animals society deems acceptable to eat proves the point. Why do some cultures eat dogs and some not? Because some cultures have elevated dogs to companion animal status above other animals. In contrast, farmed animals have been placed at the bottom and slaughtered for food. For the record, I am also again all forms of animal testing. Speciesism acts in the same way as sexism, racism, or an other -ism. It is enforeced by dominate culture and often operates without explicit thought or knowledge. This is why I am vegan. I bet you've eaten insects before while you're sleeping. Technically you're not a vegan. Who freaking cares? He also probably doesn't sustain 100% from animal products in other places in his life. He's making an effort, and he probably does a pretty damn good job. I doubt some insects while he's sleeping is going to change his mind, that wasn't a conscious decision.
Wheat threshing kills thousands of rabbits a year. Technically wheat is also causing animal harm, better give that up too.
|
On September 21 2012 06:25 SolonTLG wrote:I am vegan for ethical reasons. The health and evironmental improvements are a nice bonus, but not my reason. I see comments above like Veganism is extreme. Well, just because something is an ethical normal now, doesn't make it NOT extreme. Slavery was common in many counties about 150 years ago... Think about it. Finally, here is YouTube video discussing the fate of farmed animals in the United States. 10 Billions LivesYes, 10 billion animals die for food consumption each year in the States.
There are very little environmental benefits to being a vegan. By being vegan you are promoting agriculture which is the #1 cause of destruction of wildlife.
|
On September 21 2012 07:25 Rohan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 07:22 Kich wrote:On September 21 2012 07:17 Rohan wrote:
Before I start, going to say: Been a veggie since birth, switched over to veganism for various reasons: ethical issues, health problems and in all honesty, because I wanted a change.
Now: I lead a very active life. I work in a very physically and mentally demanding job, have played various sports for my county and country, and I've never had a problem with protein. Even while working out seriously, and requiring huge amounts of protein, I've barely had to supplement with a protein shake. Even if I had to, Soy & Brown Rice are totally fine.
It's a common misconception that vegans are "healthier" though. It's very easy to eat a junk food diet as a vegan, since lots of stuff that's junk food(: Soda, fries, chips, etc. etc.) is perfectly fine for us to eat. It's not fine in a health way though, we need to eat a broader diet of beans, green leaves and so on to stay healthy. In the same way that a meat eater has to, largely, do the same. Studies either way are largely flawed, sadly, so there's no real way of getting a clear cut example here.
The sad thing I find is this:
I choose to be a vegan based upon my own merits, and decisions regarding not killing animals for food. The arguements that people present to me on a regular basis really get to me. "We'd have to stop farming cows if everyone suddenly became vegan! Would you want them to die out?" Well, actually, I have no real issue with that. Ditto sheep, or any other animal that we farm purely for meat/eggs/milk. Phasing out entire species just because we've created them to eat seems more logical than slaughtering 10bn animals a year. To me, anyway.
As a final statement though: You're a carnivore...I get it. That's fine. However, I'm not. That should be fine as well. Why is it, that when I say something regarding animal rights I'm "preaching", and when you mock me, or attempt with a (usually piss poor) argument to somehow say what I'm doing is wrong are you just "sticking up for what you believe in". I'm aware I'm a minority, but if I don't preach to you, please don't feel the need to inform me how wrong I am while you're justifying the killing of another creature because you don't want to give it up because it tastes nice.
In case you were wondering, it's shit like that. It's because the conversation starts that way and not the other way around. Very few people actually aggressively attack people when they learn they're vegans. The reality is that few people give a shit about your life style choices and quite frankly I can't be bothered to talk to you about it unless I actually have some kind of relationship to you.
The reason it's considered preaching is because whether you like it or not it comes off as accusatory and as if that person could do anything about it. Yeah, if literally everyone stopped eating animal products there would be more animals and there's good/bad ramifications to that. Similarly if everyone in the world was just nice to each other everyone would be happier, but that's not exactly going to just happen and a single person has absolutely no influence on it if for no other reason than the fact that trolls actually exist in reality. Nope, I've had people learn I'm a vegan and come over literally JUST to poke fun at me. Yep, lots of Vegans do preach their beliefs to other people. Lots of people who eat meat are happy to preach their beliefs at me. Loudly. If it's a matter of ethics, well, the leg you're all standing on of: "Well we've always done it.." is...not good. Shows a certain lack of...erm, progression?
Did you randomly mistake me for someone else or something? Again, it's accusatory bullshit like that that makes Vegans annoying. This idea that you can somehow preach your beliefs on to other people but they should have no capacity to defend themselves is mind boggling retarded.
I mean yeah I guess it would be nice if you could just talk at people all day and they could never disagree with you or have their own opinion but that's quite the fantasy you're rolling in.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
