Veganism: A Discussion - Page 6

Rohan

United Kingdom83 Posts

September 20 2012 22:29 GMT

#101

We have to live off of something. Needless to say, the most "humane" thing to do would be to go and kill ourselves. However, there's a difference between directly slaughtering the animal and having the death come by unfortunate circumstances. That distinction is apparently lost on most people, though.

My last comment wasn't directed at you, btw. Just a general thing towards the thread.

It's fine if people want to disagree with me, but at least come along with a decently convincing arguement. Discussion is a healthy part of human culture, for sure, but where this sort of thing is involved...well. Discussion becomes pointless, because a lot of the arguments that are used are the only ones that exist. Is there an ethical way to kill something? The answer is "No.".

GnarlyArbitrage

575 Posts

September 20 2012 22:30 GMT

#102

Either way, you're still killing something to eat it.

Kich

United States339 Posts

September 20 2012 22:30 GMT

#103

On September 21 2012 07:26 Dali. wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 21 2012 07:22 Kich wrote:

On September 21 2012 07:17 Rohan wrote:
Before I start, going to say: Been a veggie since birth, switched over to veganism for various reasons: ethical issues, health problems and in all honesty, because I wanted a change.

Now: I lead a very active life. I work in a very physically and mentally demanding job, have played various sports for my county and country, and I've never had a problem with protein. Even while working out seriously, and requiring huge amounts of protein, I've barely had to supplement with a protein shake. Even if I had to, Soy & Brown Rice are totally fine.

It's a common misconception that vegans are "healthier" though. It's very easy to eat a junk food diet as a vegan, since lots of stuff that's junk food(: Soda, fries, chips, etc. etc.) is perfectly fine for us to eat. It's not fine in a health way though, we need to eat a broader diet of beans, green leaves and so on to stay healthy. In the same way that a meat eater has to, largely, do the same. Studies either way are largely flawed, sadly, so there's no real way of getting a clear cut example here.

The sad thing I find is this:

I choose to be a vegan based upon my own merits, and decisions regarding not killing animals for food. The arguements that people present to me on a regular basis really get to me. "We'd have to stop farming cows if everyone suddenly became vegan! Would you want them to die out?" Well, actually, I have no real issue with that. Ditto sheep, or any other animal that we farm purely for meat/eggs/milk. Phasing out entire species just because we've created them to eat seems more logical than slaughtering 10bn animals a year. To me, anyway.

As a final statement though: You're a carnivore...I get it. That's fine. However, I'm not. That should be fine as well. Why is it, that when I say something regarding animal rights I'm "preaching", and when you mock me, or attempt with a (usually piss poor) argument to somehow say what I'm doing is wrong are you just "sticking up for what you believe in". I'm aware I'm a minority, but if I don't preach to you, please don't feel the need to inform me how wrong I am while you're justifying the killing of another creature because you don't want to give it up because it tastes nice.

In case you were wondering, it's shit like that. It's because the conversation starts that way and not the other way around. Very few people actually aggressively attack people when they learn they're vegans. The reality is that few people give a shit about your life style choices and quite frankly I can't be bothered to talk to you about it unless I actually have some kind of relationship to you.

The reason it's considered preaching is because whether you like it or not it comes off as accusatory and as if that person could do anything about it. Yeah, if literally everyone stopped eating animal products there would be more animals and there's good/bad ramifications to that. Similarly if everyone in the world was just nice to each other everyone would be happier, but that's not exactly going to just happen and a single person has absolutely no influence on it if for no other reason than the fact that trolls actually exist in reality.

Speaking from experience as a vegetarian, I catch (playful) flak when I'm out eating with certain friends. Chosing a uncommon view makes one rife for critiquing.

I get poked fun at because I eat extraordinarily plain meals, it's my lifestyle, I'm very minimalist, it in no way has ever impacted me in the slightest. That's not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about people who get into serious shit with you over your life decisions.

SolonTLG

United States299 Posts

September 20 2012 22:30 GMT

#104

On September 21 2012 07:27 Vegalive wrote:

Show nested quote +

There are very little environmental benefits to being a vegan. By being vegan you are promoting agriculture which is the #1 cause of destruction of wildlife.

And eathing animals doesn't promote agriculture? Seriously?! Did you know that it takes approximately 16 lbs of grain to produce 1 lbs of beef, along with hundreds of gallons of water?

Vegalive

United States96 Posts

September 20 2012 22:31 GMT

#105

On September 21 2012 07:30 SolonTLG wrote:

Show nested quote +

And eathing animals doesn't promote agriculture? Seriously?! Did you know that it takes approximately 16 lbs of grain to produce 1 lbs of beef, along with hundreds of gallons of water?

So you're saying the primary reason for agriculture in this country is to feed animals?

Kich

United States339 Posts

September 20 2012 22:31 GMT

#106

On September 21 2012 07:29 Rohan wrote:
We have to live off of something. Needless to say, the most "humane" thing to do would be to go and kill ourselves. However, there's a difference between directly slaughtering the animal and having the death come by unfortunate circumstances. That distinction is apparently lost on most people, though.

Unfortunate circumstances? That translates to: another animal killed this animal and now I'm a scavenger. There is no actual ethical upside to watching something die and not interfering and eating it versus killing it yourself and eating it.

farvacola

United States18846 Posts

September 20 2012 22:32 GMT

#107

On September 21 2012 07:30 SolonTLG wrote:

Show nested quote +

And eathing animals doesn't promote agriculture? Seriously?! Did you know that it takes approximately 16 lbs of grain to produce 1 lbs of beef, along with hundreds of gallons of water?

And do you know how much grain is wasted each and every year? Where's your protest of plant agriculture to match the moral indignation of your veganism?

SolonTLG

United States299 Posts

September 20 2012 22:33 GMT

#108

On September 21 2012 07:31 Vegalive wrote:

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So you're saying the primary reason for agriculture in this country is to feed animals?

Yes, most grain in the U.S. is fed to animals. "In 2005, over 58 percent of the U.S. corn crop was used for feed."
Source:http://www.soyatech.com/corn_facts.htm

Absurdly

Canada59 Posts

September 20 2012 22:33 GMT

#109

My sister recently got a job in some sort of cow processing plant for quality assurance. Part of her training was to watch a video on how the cows are essentially turned into meat. First the cows are shot in the back of the head with some sort of stun gun, knocking them unconcious with no pain. Next they're strung on the assembly line that goes around and they have their throats slit(still unconcious, no pain). After that the blood and guts and whatever is drained and they continue to getting cut up etc.
Of course it's no doubt different for other places, but it seemed pretty "ethical" to me, and I typically hate to see animals suffer. Sounds like a fine system to me, and it put some of my concerns to rest. Would vegans have a problem with it still?

FlamingForce

Netherlands701 Posts

September 20 2012 22:33 GMT

#110

I eat meat, drink milk, I'm not a vegetarian or a vegan of any kind and I honestly don't think I'll ever be capable of being one.

The only reason I would ever do so would be because of moral dilemma that consumption of meat requires the slaughter of animals..I really don't care for the health benefits all that much, I'm perfectly healthy as is..

That said, I do applaud vegetarians and vegans for what they do as long as they don't get all pretentious and "Holier than thou" about it, it's a lifestyle I find very difficult to grasp in the sense that I could never see myself doing it because I just like my animal products far too much. (Then again, many people look at me the same way for living straight edge so there's that, eh?)

If this thread turns any people from non-vegatarian/vegan into an actual one, good on that person, I hear there are some notable health benefits to it, it's not for me tho.

Rohan

United Kingdom83 Posts

September 20 2012 22:33 GMT

#111

On September 21 2012 07:31 Kich wrote:

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If I hit your dog in my car by accident, on a dark road, on the way home from work and kill it, or if I walk up to it and shoot it is there a difference?

Danglars

United States12133 Posts

September 20 2012 22:34 GMT

#112

If the vegans were a little less radical with the "You are burning down the planet!" they might enjoy a little more societal acceptance. From high school to today, you just don't ask why someone chose veganism, because you're in for an earful. It was a book on animal cruelty at farms for one acquaintance. Another, it was more of a dislike of meats (leading me to wonder why dairy and eggs were rejected, why she went vegan instead of vegetarian).

Still think it's a rather shortsighted view towards saving the planet. Economic development in nations still employing slash-and-burn techniques to agriculture will matter more than an army of 500 vegans. That's my own two cents about it.

MadProbe

United States269 Posts

September 20 2012 22:35 GMT

#113

On September 21 2012 07:20 frantic.cactus wrote:

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Agreed. There are many flaws in that study. The media loves to create uninformed drama though.

http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/

plz reference someone who is actually qualified to evaluate a scientific study.

neoghaleon55

United States7435 Posts

September 20 2012 22:35 GMT

#114

Vegetarianism is a life style

Veganism is a protest

Dali.

New Zealand689 Posts

September 20 2012 22:38 GMT

#115

On September 21 2012 07:26 wei2coolman wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 21 2012 07:25 BlueBird. wrote:

On September 21 2012 07:22 wei2coolman wrote:

On September 21 2012 07:19 SolonTLG wrote:

On September 21 2012 07:08 wei2coolman wrote:

On September 21 2012 07:03 SolonTLG wrote:

On September 21 2012 06:48 wei2coolman wrote:

On September 21 2012 06:46 SolonTLG wrote:

On September 21 2012 06:40 wei2coolman wrote:

On September 21 2012 06:36 SolonTLG wrote:
[quote]

For the record, I f*cking hate PETA! Their advertizements are often misogynistic and exploit women's bodies to achieve thier goals. I would like to know why you think eating animals ISN'T extreme?

It's natural, no? Lions eat zebras and stuff. Sharks eat fish.
I don't see any protests against Lions from eating zebras and gazelles, do I?
Sure I think most people should cut down on their meat consumptions, out of health reasons, but I don't see any inherent moral wrong doing out of the current meat eating society.

Defining in what sense you mean it is "natural"? That term is subjective. I, now, "naturally" don't eat animals or animal products. We are not lions, sharks, or zebras, we are humans. Invoking other species is not relevant.

Also, I am giving an ethical argument for veganism. Morals are something entirely different.

eating animals "isn't extreme" because it happens in other species, so much so that they cause natural extinction patterns.

Clearly my use of normal, was in terms of the idea of consuming meat on a universal scale, not on individual. No need to twist my words, you clearly knew what I meant.

It is very much so relevant. Humans are omnivorous. just look at human evolution patterns, we have enzymes to digest meat, our bodies were made to do it.

No one here is claiming being vegan is bad. We just don't want to hear vegans complain about how meat eating is bad, when it's an obvious biological inclination.

Just like humans can choose to go without sex, but I don't want virgins bitching at people who do have sex because they have sex.

No, using the world "normal" implies judment because what is normal is a social construct.

Again, you cannot reference what other species do when I am giving an ethical argument for HUMANS not to eat animals. Other species do their own thing and we should minimize out inference in their lives.

It does NOT matter what humans did in the past in terms of meat consumption, only the future. Humans don't have to eat meat, I am proof of that. Humans can make ethical choices, and we can choose not to eat meat.

The sex example is a bad one. Obstaining from sex only affect that person. Eating animals affects animals.

No, the word normal means average, and guess what, averages can be measured.

This prosecution martyr attitude is the exact reason why regular people dislike vegans.
And my sex comment was in reference to Vegan's holier than art thou attitude, not necessarily the subject at hand.

You have to prove that there's an ethical problem with eating meat, The burden of proof is on you, not me.

Nope, you might be thinking that a Normal Distrubution has an average, which it does. But the word "normal" implies judgment and is socally constructed and enforced.

Here is my argument:
Eating animals is speciesist. I reject speciesim:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciesism
Indeed what animals society deems acceptable to eat proves the point. Why do some cultures eat dogs and some not? Because some cultures have elevated dogs to companion animal status above other animals. In contrast, farmed animals have been placed at the bottom and slaughtered for food. For the record, I am also again all forms of animal testing.

Speciesism acts in the same way as sexism, racism, or an other -ism. It is enforeced by dominate culture and often operates without explicit thought or knowledge.

This is why I am vegan.

I bet you've eaten insects before while you're sleeping. Technically you're not a vegan.

Who freaking cares? He also probably doesn't sustain 100% from animal products in other places in his life. He's making an effort, and he probably does a pretty damn good job. I doubt some insects while he's sleeping is going to change his mind, that wasn't a conscious decision.

Wheat threshing kills thousands of rabbits a year. Technically wheat is also causing animal harm, better give that up too.

Ahhh, you're on of those guys. Vegans, vegetarians and many other variations are trying to actively decrease any negative influence which they have on the planet. This is not a bad thing. Throwing facetiuous 'gotcha' statements around makes you look like an asshole. The act of living is an occupational hazard to every creature here. Some people just wish to diminsh the suffering for their neighbours, human or otherwise.

eyya

10 Posts

September 20 2012 22:38 GMT

#116

On September 21 2012 07:22 Kich wrote:

In case you were wondering, it's shit like that. It's because the conversation starts that way and not the other way around. Very few people actually aggressively attack people when they learn they're vegans.

Really? Differs heavily from my experience. But I got to admit, I'm not approached aggressively most of the time, but kind of defensively. When me being a vegan comes up somehow - most of the time because I decline food that is offered to me - people seem to automatically switch to a defensive state where they feel the need to explain themselves to me, although I didn't say anything. I never initiate conversations on veganism with anybody, because it's fucking exhausting and you get to answer the same questions over and over again. I really feel that the popular picture of vegans as aggressive, annoying preachers is always reinforced by omnivores that just dislike that veganism exists.

Otolia

France5805 Posts

September 20 2012 22:39 GMT

#117

On September 21 2012 06:27 Equity213 wrote:

Show nested quote +

Im not a vegan but since when does being consistent and steadfast in your beliefs makes you an extremist. I would rather be called a "radical" than be forever blowing in the wind, not living by any code.

Proselytism is one of the marker of extremism. In this case, he isn't advocating for a more responsible way to consider our food - id est less meat, more vegetables, less fat, less sugar etc ... He is just presenting one side of the coin and accusing the food industry of being the devil. Sure there is some bad practice there with mistreated animals but do Apple treats his chinese workforce any better ? (all things compared) Also there is the appeal to emotions and various ridiculous or misused statements.

Balance is everything and while I too is in favor of a more educated food consumption, I don't fall into the pits of selecting only one piece of a bigger system.

Shorty90

Germany154 Posts

September 20 2012 22:40 GMT

#118

I'm pretty sick of discussions about vegan/vegetarian diets on TL because they never get anywhere on this site.
I don't want to be part of the discussion for this reason but nevertheless there is one argument I want to bring forward because this is something that bugs me everytime I read a thread on this topic here.
The words normal and natural get thrown around in these threads all the time in favor of eating meat. In my opinion this is nonsense. A few hundred years ago slavery or torture was normal. Go farther back in time and rape or witchburning were a common practice. A lot of stuff we now see as immoral and unethical was "normal" and "natural" in the past.
What is "normal" or "natural" should not be an argument. What should be an argument is wether something is inherently ethical or not.

BlueBird.

United States3889 Posts

September 20 2012 22:41 GMT

#119

On September 21 2012 07:34 Danglars wrote:
If the vegans were a little less radical with the "You are burning down the planet!" they might enjoy a little more societal acceptance. From high school to today, you just don't ask why someone chose veganism, because you're in for an earful. It was a book on animal cruelty at farms for one acquaintance. Another, it was more of a dislike of meats (leading me to wonder why dairy and eggs were rejected, why she went vegan instead of vegetarian).

Still think it's a rather shortsighted view towards saving the planet. Economic development in nations still employing slash-and-burn techniques to agriculture will matter more than an army of 500 vegans. That's my own two cents about it.

I see,.. but I mean why contribute to the problem?

Going vegan/vegetarian and eating locally grown produce is one of the best ways to make an impact on the planet, and leaving a very small footprint behind. The only other way is to get involved with politics and changing the world, I support The Green Party, and volunteer with them, but I am by no means a politician, and I don't think I'm a leader. I'll never change the masses opinion, so being vegan is great for the individual.

By your logic if there was a huge blazing fire tearing down a city, we should all start little fires just cause, we can't stop the big fire anyways.

Ender985

Spain910 Posts

September 20 2012 22:44 GMT

#120

On September 21 2012 06:09 Blacktion wrote:
As a scientist all i can say is wow.

Pretty much this.

Also, I've learnt over the years that it is not possible to argue with a vegan/vegetarian. Because essentially means arguing with the other person's beliefs system, which can never be rationalized.

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