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On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds
If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing.
User was temp banned for this post.
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i will mostly agree with your statements regarding the ethical/environmental consequences of the "typical" meat based processed "food" diet.
however, could you please answer one quick question. for thousands of years before the agricultural revolution, humans ate a diet of fruit/veg, meat, fish, nuts, etc... this is what our bodies are evolved to optimally ingest. in some regards this is what is known as the "paleo" diet.
as such, i get my meats from a butcher i know from farms in the area, not the factory farms prevalent in the industry.
moderation in all things.
btw, i am a recovered veggie of 5+ years. now i am a "low-meat consumer". lamb is just too delicious.
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On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing.
Well shit, you got me. Lets not even try then.
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On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing.
Yup. The point is, if you are in a third world country then you probably are too busy struggling to make ends meet to care even if you're getting correct nutrients. Only here in the developed world are we able to choose how we eat, an we are therefore in no position to preach.
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On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing.
This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault. Some people know what their choices cause by eating at McDonalds, and then there's a poor boy who caught a fish and that's all the food his family has for the night. You can condemn one, while forgiving the other.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that? It is of my opinion we can improve the state of third world countries and the world, and then eventually lead them towards a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle.
If we gave all the starving countries, half the corn/grain we feed to cattle, they would be pretty happy.
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personally i ahve no problem with Vegans or vegetarion, my sister is vegan and i never give her crap for it (aside from the odd joke all in good fun but thats a 2 way street)
but i cant stand the vegans who consider it there job to go around and let everyone else know how terrible eating meat is and how much healthier it is to go vegan
personally i dont actually eat that much meat, i enjoy having meat but more often i eat vegetarion meals because i like meat to remain a treat, theres nothing wrong with the way i chose to eat
yes its more "healthy" to eat only vegetables, but as long as you take interest in waht your eating and pay attention and avoid the already cooked dinners and stuff like taht theres no reason you cant enjoy some meat a couple times a week and come out of it completely healthy
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On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that. This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault. What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
This. We are blessed with a choice that we can choose to live a clean and healthy lifestyle here. If I am stranded in the woods and need to eat meat to survive, guess what I will. I do not think its morally wrong to eat meat if you absolutely have to. However, if you have a choice I do believe it is unethical given the "side effects".
The people posting about thirld world countries. We could give them nutrient rich plant based foods if we drastically reduced the amount of food that goes solely to the meat industry. We can help them become healthier.
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing.
This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless.
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On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. Show nested quote +This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless.
I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me.
We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry.
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On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently?
Yes, largely because they couldn't afford it. As they've gotten wealthier they have switched to eating more meat. It is one of the big reasons why food prices have increased so much over the past decade.
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On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry.
if anyone defends eating dog based on intellect then they are heavily biased, extremely uninformed or jsut plain dumb
people dont eat dogs because there cute, same reason we dont eat cats and dolphins if something gets labelled as "cute" or gets accepted as a standard pet it comes off the menu
thats why cows and pigs who are not cute and not pets stay on the menu
i find it ridiculous that Vegans constantly try to push there lifestyle choices onto others, eating only veggies is not the only way to get healthy its perfectly possible to mantain a healthy life and continue indulging in meats
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On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry.
Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this:
1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being.
2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals.
3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality.
The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live.
The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy.
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On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry.
What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice.
I can understand why you would feel our treatment of some animals is immoral, but I don't understand how drinking of dairy would be considered immoral. How is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong? Is it simply because we keep them domesticated?
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On September 21 2012 11:05 Forikorder wrote:
personally i ahve no problem with Vegans or vegetarion, my sister is vegan and i never give her crap for it (aside from the odd joke all in good fun but thats a 2 way street)
but i cant stand the vegans who consider it there job to go around and let everyone else know how terrible eating meat is and how much healthier it is to go vegan
personally i dont actually eat that much meat, i enjoy having meat but more often i eat vegetarion meals because i like meat to remain a treat, theres nothing wrong with the way i chose to eat
yes its more "healthy" to eat only vegetables, but as long as you take interest in waht your eating and pay attention and avoid the already cooked dinners and stuff like taht theres no reason you cant enjoy some meat a couple times a week and come out of it completely healthy
I'm paleo and I eat more vegetables than vegans. Most vegans I know chomp down on grains, tofu, and sweets.
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On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy.
this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard
i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in
you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think
if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain
if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow
its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is
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On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry.
Why is it wrong to kill pigs for food yet not wrong to kill corn for food? Both are alive. I'm sure you have your reasons for drawing that distinction, yet I don't see how your reasons are any less arbitrary than my own carnivorous reasons.
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On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice. I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated?
It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows.
I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead.
What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species).
Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P
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On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is
.... Wow. Just wow.
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On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is
Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"?
Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power.
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On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power.
Unless I want to eat it. That's more than enough reason.
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EPT
