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Veganism: A Discussion - Page 9

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ThaZenith
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada3116 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-21 00:24:04
September 21 2012 00:23 GMT
#161
I don't always think vegans are too insane, they usually have good reasons. I for one would like it if regulations regarding farming of animals were stricter and heavily enforced. But I don't have anything against killing animals for food, or killing them for materials. As long as they don't live in agony/terrible conditions, and their death isn't terrible either.

I think being vegan for environmental reasons is silly, and for nutrition it kinda makes sense, but I can easily eat healthy and eat meat as well, like a normal person.
BlueBird.
Profile Joined August 2008
United States3890 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-21 00:32:15
September 21 2012 00:30 GMT
#162
On September 21 2012 09:23 Zariel wrote:
I try to have a balanced diet by eating a good amount of veggies and keeping a count on how much meat I consume.

One thing I don't understand is some vegans I know how have health problems, mainly being lack of iron and thus they take vitamin supplements. It's like hey.... did you know that those vitamin tablets could have been made from animals? You didn't see those pills being made, do you really trust what's on the label?


You can get vegan vitamin supplements.

You haven't seen most things you consume made, you need to do research before consuming things usually as a vegan. Don't assume they didn't do the research. If they didn't well, that means they might not be super 100% into the vegan thing, but that doesn't mean they aren't making an effort, they have made the big step of taking out meat, eggs, milk etc.
Currently Playing: Android Netrunner, Gwent, Gloomhaven, Board Games
B.I.G.
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
3251 Posts
September 21 2012 00:37 GMT
#163
My cousin used to be a big strong dude that looked healthy enough to me. After he switched to a vegan/vegetarian diet he became thin, weak and pale. I'm sorry but after seeing that it's hard to convince me that such a diet is actually better for you.

Until the day I see a vegan or vegetarian that is big and strong I remain sceptical.
Glurkenspurk
Profile Joined November 2010
United States1915 Posts
September 21 2012 00:43 GMT
#164
Can anyone explain to me the purpose of the word "natural?" What does it even mean? Isn't everything natural? I mean even our computers come from materials found in nature..

Is there a certain point things stop being natural and become artificial? I don't get it. I always see "natural" labeled on shit but I still have no damn clue what it's supposed to mean in any context. It seems so arbitrary.
nanoscorp
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1237 Posts
September 21 2012 00:45 GMT
#165
On September 21 2012 05:59 ImAbstracT wrote:
...
Now as I stated before I used to hunt. By no means am I about to join the Animal Liberation Front, but in no way, shape or form is the treatment of animals anywhere remotely near ethical. Animals getting their neck slit while still being alive, putting live pigs in boiling water, throwing live male chicks in the garbage, castrating bulls with no anesthesia, etc. Not even to mention the horrible living conditions where some animals can't even turn around or lie down. There are many other videos like the one above which highlight these standard industry practices. Animals can be happy and sad. They can feel pain just like we do, and have a strong desire just to stay alive.
...
This is what I want to discuss. The impact of meat production and consumption on the human body and the environment.


First off, I agree that conventional meat farming is gross, unethical and hazardous to long-term health in many cases. Concentrated animal feeding operations create a lot of problems where they needn't exist. That said, I strongly object to the blanket assertion that ALL farming employs unethical treatment. To prove that you'd need to assess operations at every single farm, ranch and backyard chicken coop on the planet and come away with a 100% "failed to meet ethical standards" scorecard. It isn't going to happen. There are people out there who care about the lives and treatment of the animals too, and some of them raise them for slaughter. I can understand taking a moral stance regarding killing animals, avoiding meat and animal products to live in harmony with that respect for life, but short of that, I don't think veganism is the only option for those that object to conventional farming practices.

I don't think meat production or consumption are intrinsically bad for either the human body or the environment. Specific examples, some quite common, are bad in my opinion, and merit consideration by all reasonable individuals. As far as consumption goes, carnivores and omnivores all over the planet have been eating each other for millennia: it's how nature works, all the way down until you hit the photosynthesizers. Choosing to be a vegan is fine with me, but trying to frame it as the most natural, sensible way of doing things seems silly.
GrapeApe
Profile Joined March 2011
1053 Posts
September 21 2012 00:46 GMT
#166
On September 21 2012 09:37 B.I.G. wrote:
My cousin used to be a big strong dude that looked healthy enough to me. After he switched to a vegan/vegetarian diet he became thin, weak and pale. I'm sorry but after seeing that it's hard to convince me that such a diet is actually better for you.

Until the day I see a vegan or vegetarian that is big and strong I remain sceptical.


Patrik Baboumian - Former strongman and competitve body builder.
Brendan Brazier - Triathelete
Arian Foster - Texans running back; top 5 back in the league at the moment, maybe #1
Volkert van der Graaf - Assassin
Georges Laraque - Pro hockey player.
Petra Němcová - SUPER HOT SUPER MODEL
Mike Zigomanis - Pro hockey player.
Timothy Bradley - Undefeated WBO welterweight champ.
Robert Cheeke - Bodybuilder
Luke Cummo - MMA Fighter
Mac Danzig - MMA fighter
Jon Fitch - Boring ass MMA fighter
Scott Jurek - runner
Prince Fielder - baseball player
...

The list can go on. Just go to wikipedia.
GOIMBA.com <--- eSports betting :)
Aerisky
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States12129 Posts
September 21 2012 00:47 GMT
#167
I'm actually vegan in a way, except I can eat meat.

Being allergic to seafood, nuts, eggs, and dairy does that to you (but nuts--and maybe seafood--are still okay in vegan diets). As with most of these topics I'm sort of moderate on this one. You can eat whatever you like, however you like it, if I don't care about you. I, however, will enjoy my meat and other such yummy foods. Animal cruelty is a real issue but I'm not as ardent about it by a long shot as are many people.
Jim while Johnny had had had had had had had; had had had had the better effect on the teacher.
B.I.G.
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
3251 Posts
September 21 2012 00:50 GMT
#168
On September 21 2012 09:46 GrapeApe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2012 09:37 B.I.G. wrote:
My cousin used to be a big strong dude that looked healthy enough to me. After he switched to a vegan/vegetarian diet he became thin, weak and pale. I'm sorry but after seeing that it's hard to convince me that such a diet is actually better for you.

Until the day I see a vegan or vegetarian that is big and strong I remain sceptical.


Patrik Baboumian - Former strongman and competitve body builder.
Brendan Brazier - Triathelete
Arian Foster - Texans running back; top 5 back in the league at the moment, maybe #1
Volkert van der Graaf - Assassin
Georges Laraque - Pro hockey player.
Petra Němcová - SUPER HOT SUPER MODEL
Mike Zigomanis - Pro hockey player.
Timothy Bradley - Undefeated WBO welterweight champ.
Robert Cheeke - Bodybuilder
Luke Cummo - MMA Fighter
Mac Danzig - MMA fighter
Jon Fitch - Boring ass MMA fighter
Scott Jurek - runner
Prince Fielder - baseball player
...

The list can go on. Just go to wikipedia.


... why would you use that sick fuck as an example of a healthy vegan?
frantic.cactus
Profile Joined April 2010
New Zealand164 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-21 01:32:08
September 21 2012 00:53 GMT
#169
On September 21 2012 09:12 MadProbe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2012 08:09 frantic.cactus wrote:
On September 21 2012 07:35 MadProbe wrote:
On September 21 2012 07:20 frantic.cactus wrote:
On September 21 2012 07:09 zatic wrote:
On September 21 2012 06:59 Feartheguru wrote:
That study you described sounds SEVERELY flawed. The people who ate less meat are the poorer ones ( a rule of thumb in rural villages in China) who are more likely to have the diseases they looked for.

Well if anything that would only strengthen his point wouldn't it :-)

If I remember correctly from the China study the cluster with the highest consumption of meat was indeed the least healthy. HOWEVER, the cluster with the lowest (or non-) consumption of meat was not at all the healthiest, and outperformed by the clusters with a more balanced diet and moderate meat consumption.

So, all other flaws the study might have aside, you could use it to argue against overconsumption of meat, but much less as an argument in favor of vegetarianism.


Agreed. There are many flaws in that study. The media loves to create uninformed drama though.

http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/


plz reference someone who is actually qualified to evaluate a scientific study.


plz read the critique and make up your own mind. I'm a Pol sci/Intl relations major, but that doesn't mean I can't critically evaluate a text which is outside my academic field.

http://rawfoodsos.com/about/
She pretty much sums it up. Lets try a little independent thinking.


alright... try independently thinking about this:

A response to Denise's critique by the author of the China Study himself, Dr Campbell:

Show nested quote +

As far as her substantive comments are concerned, almost all are based on her citing univariate correlations in the China project that can easily mislead, especially if one of the two variables does not have a sufficient range, is too low to be useful and/or is known to be a very different level of exposure at the time of the survey than it would have been years before when disease was developing. There is a number of these univariate correlations in the China project (associations of 2 variables only) that do not fit the model (out of 8000, there would be) and most can be explained by one of these limitations.

http://tynan.com/chinastudyresponse

Analysis of her critique by a cancer researcher (first 2 posts):
Show nested quote +

(in response to the china study critique)
Your analysis is completely OVER-SIMPLIFIED. Every good epidemiologist/statistician will tell you that a correlation does NOT equal an association. By running a series of correlations, you’ve merely pointed out linear, non-directional, and unadjusted relationships between two factors. I suggest you pick up a basic biostatistics book, download a free copy of “R” (an open-source statistical software program), and learn how to analyze data properly. I’m a PhD cancer epidemiologist, and would be happy to help you do this properly. While I’m impressed by your crude, and – at best – preliminary analyses, it is quite irresponsible of you to draw conclusions based on these results alone. At the very least, you need to model the data using regression analyses so that you can account for multiple factors at one time.

http://www.30bananasaday.com/group/debunkingthechinastudycritics/forum/topics/official-responses-to-the

And here's another very thorough analysis of her critique that suggests she has not even read the book:

Show nested quote +

Regarding the title, it seems to be a strange question. Denise is undoubtedly a precocious, bright, and hard working young woman. Surely someone who had written a series of apparently thorough and impressive critiques of TCS would know the book like the back of her hand, right? How could anyone doubt whether she has read the entire book?

The question is actually quite understandable, and in the following series of posts myself and others will demonstrate why, in addition to scrutinizing the numerous claims she makes.

http://www.30bananasaday.com/group/debunkingthechinastudycritics/forum/topics/official-responses-to-the

So... Can you explain to me why Denise's critique is still valid despite her poor and misleading use of statistics?

Or would you like to provide a serious critique by a qualified researcher like I first asked?


Okay sound argument. You have rebutted Denise's points well.

Let me put together an argument and i'll get back to this discussion in a while.

In the mean time here is a publication on statistical interference in the study, thought he doesn't dispute the findings.
http://www.jaqm.ro/issues/volume-3,issue-1/pdfs/herteliu.pdf


Terran it up since 2007
Doomwish
Profile Joined July 2011
438 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-21 01:00:14
September 21 2012 00:59 GMT
#170
Meat is murder! tasty, tasty murder..mmmmmmmhmmm. Seriously though I could not live without it

I had a veggie burger once though-absolutely 100% confirmed awful.

As a human being I just need to destroy it, consume it, then shit it out. Seems harsh but hey it's our nature. No use fighting it, we are at the top of the food chain...that being said I doubt a shark would worry about giving you anesthesia before it bit your arm off.
Sephiren
Profile Joined September 2012
United States85 Posts
September 21 2012 01:00 GMT
#171
I think when discussing a topic like this, you should avoid the word "meant". We, nor any other animal is "meant" to eat one thing or another. You eat what you can and what keeps you alive and healthy. So whether you're talking about eat meat or something else entirely, it's almost always not a good idea to use it.

I'd say this: We have evolved as omnivores. So since we are lucky enough to be able to extract our glucose and various other nutrients we need from various sources, we may choose those we see fit. The options differ when you're trying to accomplish your goal of sustenance while being economical, sensitive to animal welfare, or environmentally friendly. Is there a wrong way to do it? Probably not.

An interesting story, apparently the two places where live the longest is Okinawa, and a small town in Italy. The two main contributing factors to this longevity are diet, and social stimuli. In both cultures elders a held in very high esteem, and are often very socially active. In fact, during an interview with the sort of "village elder" in the Italian City, the interview was interrupted 2 or 3 times by people coming and asking for the gentleman's advice. In Okinawa and in the Italian city (the name of which I forgot) eat a lot of fish, and a lot of vegetables. I think the fish is the really important factor.

ImAbstracT
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
519 Posts
September 21 2012 01:03 GMT
#172
On September 21 2012 09:45 nanoscorp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2012 05:59 ImAbstracT wrote:
...
Now as I stated before I used to hunt. By no means am I about to join the Animal Liberation Front, but in no way, shape or form is the treatment of animals anywhere remotely near ethical. Animals getting their neck slit while still being alive, putting live pigs in boiling water, throwing live male chicks in the garbage, castrating bulls with no anesthesia, etc. Not even to mention the horrible living conditions where some animals can't even turn around or lie down. There are many other videos like the one above which highlight these standard industry practices. Animals can be happy and sad. They can feel pain just like we do, and have a strong desire just to stay alive.
...
This is what I want to discuss. The impact of meat production and consumption on the human body and the environment.


First off, I agree that conventional meat farming is gross, unethical and hazardous to long-term health in many cases. Concentrated animal feeding operations create a lot of problems where they needn't exist. That said, I strongly object to the blanket assertion that ALL farming employs unethical treatment. To prove that you'd need to assess operations at every single farm, ranch and backyard chicken coop on the planet and come away with a 100% "failed to meet ethical standards" scorecard. It isn't going to happen. There are people out there who care about the lives and treatment of the animals too, and some of them raise them for slaughter. I can understand taking a moral stance regarding killing animals, avoiding meat and animal products to live in harmony with that respect for life, but short of that, I don't think veganism is the only option for those that object to conventional farming practices.

I don't think meat production or consumption are intrinsically bad for either the human body or the environment. Specific examples, some quite common, are bad in my opinion, and merit consideration by all reasonable individuals. As far as consumption goes, carnivores and omnivores all over the planet have been eating each other for millennia: it's how nature works, all the way down until you hit the photosynthesizers. Choosing to be a vegan is fine with me, but trying to frame it as the most natural, sensible way of doing things seems silly.

I was mainly speaking about big Industrial meat farms in my OP. I do know there are some smaller farms which do act more humanely to animals, but those are few and far between. They are usually driven out of business, or have extremely limited market share due to the bigger businesses.

To the people talking about the China study I just posted that because it was the most well known study. By no means is it the only one.

http://www.cancerproject.org/survival/cancer_facts/meat.php
The World Health Organization has determined that dietary factors account for at least 30 percent of all cancers in Western countries and up to 20 percent in developing countries. When cancer researchers started to search for links between diet and cancer, one of the most noticeable findings was that people who avoided meat were much less likely to develop the disease. Large studies in England and Germany showed that vegetarians were about 40 percent less likely to develop cancer compared to meat eaters.


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090701103002.htm
"It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life-cycle including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood and adolescence and for athletes."


http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/CAMPAIGNS/vegetarianism/ALL/653/ (references at the bottom)

+ Show Spoiler +
The Trouble With Too Much Protein

The problem with protein in the Western diet is actually more to do with eating too much than eating too little. Excessive protein consumption can lead to a number of serious health problems. Studies show that vegan diets provide sufficient amounts of protein, automatically met by a balanced, varied diet including grains (e.g. rice) and pulses (e.g. beans).
Osteoporosis

Most of our body's calcium is in our bones. The small amount in our bloodstream plays an important role in functions such as muscle contraction and maintenance of the heartbeat. Bloodstream calcium is constantly being lost through urine, sweat and faeces. Replacement comes from the bones, which depend on fresh supplies from the food we eat. Diets rich in animal protein, such as that found in cows' milk, makes the blood more acidic. The body tries to neutralise this by drawing calcium from the bones into the bloodstream, which is filtered through the kidneys and lost through urine. The more dairy consumed, the more calcium the body needs to balance the losses. Therefore too much protein actually leaches calcium from the bones and contributes to weak bones and osteoporosis. Countries whose populations eat low-protein diets have lower rates of osteoporosis and hip fractures (1).
Kidney Disease And Kidney Stones

Excess protein consumption produces more nitrogen than the body requires. This strains the kidneys, which must expel the extra nitrogen through urine, causing reduced kidney function. Over time, individuals who consume very large amounts of animal protein, risk permanent loss of kidney function. High animal protein diets also lead to more uric acid in the urine, and a general increase in urine acidity.Because of the acidity, the uric acid does not easily dissolve and can form into kidney stones.
Heart Disease And Stroke

Saturated animal fats found in meat and dairy products raise cholesterol and can increase the risk of heart disease and strokes by blocking blood flow through the arteries. If the blood flow to the heart is blocked, a heart attack can occur. If the blood flow to the brain is blocked, a stroke can occur. Official dietary guidelines across the world recommend that no more than 10% of calories should come from saturated fats. In the UK, dairy foods contribute about 20% of total fat intake and over a third of saturated fat (2). Cholesterol is found only in animal products. Meat, fish, poultry, dairy products, and eggs all contain cholesterol, while plant products do not. Choosing lean cuts of meat is not enough; the cholesterol is mainly in the lean portion. Many people are surprised to learn that chicken contains as much cholesterol as beef. A diet rich in whole grains, vegetables, beans and fruits, is free of artery- clogging cholesterol and low in saturated fat.
Cancer

Too much fat in the diet is the food-related factor most often identified for increasing the risk of contracting cancer, but protein also plays a role. Populations that eat meat and dairy products regularly are at an increased risk from cancers such as colon, breast, ovarian and prostate. Cows' milk contains a powerful growth hormone - IGF-1 - that stimulates the growth of malignant cells and has been identified as a key factor in the growth of human cancer. People drinking milk have increased levels of IGF-1 in their bodies (3).
Diabetes

Studies in various countries have shown a strong link between the consumption of dairy products and the incidence of insulin-dependent diabetes. In 1992 researchers (4) found that a specific dairy protein sparks an auto-immune reaction, which is believed to be what destroys the insulin-producing cells of the pancreas. Insulin is required to convert glucose from food into energy. If the pancreas does not produce enough insulin then the glucose content in the blood is too high and diabetes occurs. Studies suggest that persons with type 2 diabetes (non-insulin dependent diabetes) can improve and, in some cases, even reverse, the disease by switching to an unrefined vegan diet (5).

Dairy And Crohn's Disease

Research has linked the intestinal disorder Crohn's disease - that causes fever, diarrhoea and pain after eating - with Johne's disease in dairy cows. The bacterium in cows interferes with their digestion, lowers milk production, and eventually kills those infected. This same bacterium has been found in the gut of humans suffering from Crohn's disease, whose symptoms include crippling stomach pain, diarrhoea and other intestinal problems. In addition to genetic factors and bacterial infections, Crohn's disease is affected by diet. The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (www.pcrm.org) has reported that 'many people with the illness have little fibre - specifically vegetables and fruits - and too much sugar in their diet. Boosting plant foods, including whole grain bread and brown rice, while avoiding sugar, white flour, and white rice has reduced patient hospitalisations in research studies.'
Allergies

Consuming dairy products has also been linked to a number of allergies such as asthma, eczema and wheezing, especially in childhood. Naturally, the best beverage for infants and small toddlers is mother's breast milk. Even after the first year, food allergies to milk and milk products are common. Many children and teens with irritable bowel syndrome, autism, asthma, and allergies improve when they stop drinking cows' milk. For people who suffer from Irritable Bowel Syndrome (intestinal problem), foods rich in fat such as dairy can make the symptoms worse.
GM In Animal Feed

More than 50% of genetically modified crop material grown around the world goes into animal feed. As consumers around the world mobilise against GM products in their own food, few people realise that eating meat and dairy products is throwing a lifeline to the biotechnology industry. While most UK vegetarians rely heavily upon soya in their diet and need to take care to avoid GM crops, meat eaters have an almost impossible task. This is because soyabean oil and meal are common ingredients in compound animal feeds and may well include GM products. There is a danger that the alien DNA inserted into the soya may be taken up by the animal in its feed and eventually get into the human consumer as well.
Vegetarian Nutrition

Some people going vegetarian worry about getting enough protein, calcium, B vitamins and other essential nutrients. The best evidence indicates that a balanced non-animal diet is the healthiest there is - for children as well as for adults.

"Vegetarians have lower rates of obesity, coronary heart disease, high blood pressure, large bowel disorders, cancers and gall stones. Cholesterol levels tend to be lower in vegetarians."

British Medical Association

"Appropriately planned vegan and lacto-ovo-vegetarian diets satisfy nutrient needs of infants, children and adolescents and promote normal growth."

The American Dietetic Association

"Vegetarian groups have been shown to have lower risks of cardiovascular disease, lower rates of obesity and longer life expectancy than meat-eaters."

The World Cancer Research Fund


I could go on, but a simple google search can find that animal products can be linked to certain diseases. This isn't me judging anyone or thinking I am superior, but simply trying to give out information. What you do with it and decide is on you.

Oh, and the video from the OP:
"I want you to take a moment, and reflect, on how much of a failure you are" - IdrA
frantic.cactus
Profile Joined April 2010
New Zealand164 Posts
September 21 2012 01:04 GMT
#173
On September 21 2012 09:50 B.I.G. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2012 09:46 GrapeApe wrote:
On September 21 2012 09:37 B.I.G. wrote:
My cousin used to be a big strong dude that looked healthy enough to me. After he switched to a vegan/vegetarian diet he became thin, weak and pale. I'm sorry but after seeing that it's hard to convince me that such a diet is actually better for you.

Until the day I see a vegan or vegetarian that is big and strong I remain sceptical.


Patrik Baboumian - Former strongman and competitve body builder.
Brendan Brazier - Triathelete
Arian Foster - Texans running back; top 5 back in the league at the moment, maybe #1
Volkert van der Graaf - Assassin
Georges Laraque - Pro hockey player.
Petra Němcová - SUPER HOT SUPER MODEL
Mike Zigomanis - Pro hockey player.
Timothy Bradley - Undefeated WBO welterweight champ.
Robert Cheeke - Bodybuilder
Luke Cummo - MMA Fighter
Mac Danzig - MMA fighter
Jon Fitch - Boring ass MMA fighter
Scott Jurek - runner
Prince Fielder - baseball player
...

The list can go on. Just go to wikipedia.


... why would you use that sick fuck as an example of a healthy vegan?


Nutritional supplements? Just a theory.
Terran it up since 2007
SupLilSon
Profile Joined October 2011
Malaysia4123 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-21 01:33:13
September 21 2012 01:31 GMT
#174
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.

The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...

Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy.
ImAbstracT
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
519 Posts
September 21 2012 01:39 GMT
#175
On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.

The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...

Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently?

Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids

Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family)

Vegetables
Fruits
Nuts
Grains
Seeds

Good sources:

Oils made from:

Safflower
Sunflower
Corn
Soya
Evening primrose
Pumpkin
Wheatgerm.

Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family)

(Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.).

Flaxseeds (linseeds)
Mustard seeds
Hemp seeds
Walnut oil
Green leafy vegetables
Grains
Spirulina

Good sources

Oils made from:

Linseed (flaxseeds)
Rapeseed (canola)
Hemp seeds
"I want you to take a moment, and reflect, on how much of a failure you are" - IdrA
SupLilSon
Profile Joined October 2011
Malaysia4123 Posts
September 21 2012 01:46 GMT
#176
On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.

The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...

Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently?

Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids

Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family)

Vegetables
Fruits
Nuts
Grains
Seeds

Good sources:

Oils made from:

Safflower
Sunflower
Corn
Soya
Evening primrose
Pumpkin
Wheatgerm.

Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family)

(Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.).

Flaxseeds (linseeds)
Mustard seeds
Hemp seeds
Walnut oil
Green leafy vegetables
Grains
Spirulina

Good sources

Oils made from:

Linseed (flaxseeds)
Rapeseed (canola)
Hemp seeds

"Fairly Slim" isn't Veganism... and there could be a multitude of reasons for that (if it's even true).

And like I said, if you don't live in a first world country what is the chance that you have the convenience of procuring a list such as this? And even if you can get such a list you probably can't get all the different seeds, beans and plants you need at a reasonable cost. I'll stick by what I said. The Vegan lifestyle is made possible by a certain standard of living which most people don't have.
Mr Showtime
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1353 Posts
September 21 2012 01:47 GMT
#177
This has actually changed my perspective on veganism quite a bit. Very interesting. If I was promised an additional 5 years on my life if I switched to vegan now, I certainly still wouldn't just because I like non-vegan foods so much. But there was always a 'concern' that went along with vegan diets, and I guess that can go away now.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18866 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-21 01:55:01
September 21 2012 01:52 GMT
#178
On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.

The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...

Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently?

Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids

Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family)

Vegetables
Fruits
Nuts
Grains
Seeds

Good sources:

Oils made from:

Safflower
Sunflower
Corn
Soya
Evening primrose
Pumpkin
Wheatgerm.

Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family)

(Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.).

Flaxseeds (linseeds)
Mustard seeds
Hemp seeds
Walnut oil
Green leafy vegetables
Grains
Spirulina

Good sources

Oils made from:

Linseed (flaxseeds)
Rapeseed (canola)
Hemp seeds

I'm rather surprised at how lacking your defense of a vegetarian diet is. You mention ALA, the predominant Omega 3 found in plant material, but fail to mention EHA or DHA, both of which are considered the "holy grail" of Omega 3's for their nutritional value. Furthermore, a proper balance of all three is correlated to the most significant improvement in overall health, and corresponding values decrease when one or more of the acids are absent, meaning all three are important. The only vegetarian way to get proper amounts of EHA and DHA is through seaweed supplementation, chiefly through kelp oil. Even then, large amounts are required and absorbtion efficacy is less than that of equivalent animal sources. In other words, a fair bit of extra supplementation is needed for vegetarians when it comes to optimal fatty acid intake, but it can be done.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
BlueBird.
Profile Joined August 2008
United States3890 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-21 01:54:53
September 21 2012 01:53 GMT
#179
On September 21 2012 10:46 SupLilSon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:
On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.

The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...

Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently?

Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids

Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family)

Vegetables
Fruits
Nuts
Grains
Seeds

Good sources:

Oils made from:

Safflower
Sunflower
Corn
Soya
Evening primrose
Pumpkin
Wheatgerm.

Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family)

(Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.).

Flaxseeds (linseeds)
Mustard seeds
Hemp seeds
Walnut oil
Green leafy vegetables
Grains
Spirulina

Good sources

Oils made from:

Linseed (flaxseeds)
Rapeseed (canola)
Hemp seeds

"Fairly Slim" isn't Veganism... and there could be a multitude of reasons for that (if it's even true).

And like I said, if you don't live in a first world country what is the chance that you have the convenience of procuring a list such as this? And even if you can get such a list you probably can't get all the different seeds, beans and plants you need at a reasonable cost. I'll stick by what I said. The Vegan lifestyle is made possible by a certain standard of living which most people don't have.


http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1626519,00.html

Yes, they might not be vegan exactly, but many third world countries eat way less meat, and they might need animal products of some kind, I actually don't really have a problem if you eat eggs your chickens grew, or your friends chickens grew and you traded for them(I'm not going to eat eggs or drink milk, cause its nasty). So if third world countries continue to use animals because they have too, so be it. It's when you go down to the supermarket and pick up eggs produced in mass in unethical situations I have an issue .

Families in Central America seem to have the closest resemblance to my diet, with maybe some meat included.

If everyone in the world ate meat once/twice a week, or month, then I would be content as a vegan with that change, it would not be optimal for me, but I feel like that change would better our world. I actually truly believe that someday we won't eat meat as a species anymore, and it will be considered archaic and barbaric if you do.
Currently Playing: Android Netrunner, Gwent, Gloomhaven, Board Games
AoN.DimSum
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States2983 Posts
September 21 2012 01:54 GMT
#180
On September 21 2012 10:04 frantic.cactus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2012 09:50 B.I.G. wrote:
On September 21 2012 09:46 GrapeApe wrote:
On September 21 2012 09:37 B.I.G. wrote:
My cousin used to be a big strong dude that looked healthy enough to me. After he switched to a vegan/vegetarian diet he became thin, weak and pale. I'm sorry but after seeing that it's hard to convince me that such a diet is actually better for you.

Until the day I see a vegan or vegetarian that is big and strong I remain sceptical.


Patrik Baboumian - Former strongman and competitve body builder.
Brendan Brazier - Triathelete
Arian Foster - Texans running back; top 5 back in the league at the moment, maybe #1
Volkert van der Graaf - Assassin
Georges Laraque - Pro hockey player.
Petra Němcová - SUPER HOT SUPER MODEL
Mike Zigomanis - Pro hockey player.
Timothy Bradley - Undefeated WBO welterweight champ.
Robert Cheeke - Bodybuilder
Luke Cummo - MMA Fighter
Mac Danzig - MMA fighter
Jon Fitch - Boring ass MMA fighter
Scott Jurek - runner
Prince Fielder - baseball player
...

The list can go on. Just go to wikipedia.


... why would you use that sick fuck as an example of a healthy vegan?


Nutritional supplements? Just a theory.


Are any of those people Vegan from the beginning?
by my idol krokkis : "U better hope Finland wont have WCG next year and that I wont gain shitloads of skill, cause then I will wash ur mouth with soap, little man."
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