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On September 21 2012 11:51 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:43 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. I stunned and fed a Preying Mantis 3 stink bugs about a week ago. I found both outside and didn't actually kill any of the bugs myself. Does that make me an accomplice to murder or is insects eating other insects not imoral? While I appreciate that you try to treat me as your conscience: I don't know. Personally I love watching a Preying Mantis hunt and eat. I also have the same feeling for Lions. Seeing how nature works in an almost undisturbed way is amazing, it's checks and balances. I think I would also love to see humans hunt their food together. What's over the top for me is taking a bunch of animals, putting them into a small place, causing them immense pain from birth to slaughter and all that to produce something we don't need in the first place. If there's no alternative, fine, go ahead. But they are. We have the brain to explore them and the empathy to feel with other living beings. We can make the conscious thought chain of "I don't want to be treated like that" -> "I don't want to see others being treated like that". Not extending the same privilege to another species? Why the hell not? I don't want a stronger and more intelligent species to show up and raise me as cattle either. Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:41 Olinim wrote:On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice. I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated? It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead. What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species). Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P So which is it? In your second paragraph you say it's completely a personal choice and if they're fine with it go ahead. Then in the very next paragraph you say that it should make them feel guilty. I am also sick of people in this thread equating animals to humans. I said it annoys the crap out of me and that I don't understand how to not feel guilty. I can find neither a logical nor an emotional argument to not feel guilty about it. If you can find either, please tell me about it.
There's an innumerable amount of species that have eaten meat since the birth of said species. If anything can be said to be natural, meat-eating surely can. Animals eat other animals that are lower on the food chain. Every animal is lower us.
There's your logical argument for eating meat.
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On September 21 2012 11:54 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:45 Olinim wrote:On September 21 2012 11:40 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:37 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice. I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated? It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead. What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species). Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P Oh wow, you didnt just compare an 8 year old HUMAN girl to a cow did you? I suppose Hitler comes next, out of this thread now. If you want to go there, sure: please tell me a major difference between a concentration camp and a slaughterhouse besides "humans vs animals". Please keep in mind that "they aren't humans, they are lesser beings, animals" was one of the main "reasons" which made it "morally okay" to make it happen in the first place. Oh and look here we are. People comparing a slaughterhouse to the freaking holocaust. Rather: Oh, look here we are. Instead of actually trying to understand why that comparison makes perfect sense APART from "animals != humans" you prefer to make a snide comment. Actually the other difference I can think of "no one intended to eat those people". The scary thing for me personally is the incredibly number of similarities between those cases.
What you fail to realize is that a great many people consider the very notion of an attempt at seperating the atrocity of the holocaust and the humanity involved a terrible insult to those who died. You are basically saying "Hey, I'm going to use your people's genocide, pretend humanity is divorcible from it, and apply it to non-humans."
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HOW can you compare human brain and dog brain? Or any other animal brain, for that matter? Human brain weight around 1.5 kg, thats dozens, hundred times more than animal brains. Noone can say for sure how any animal realizes this world simply because humans are only ones who can think.
There was a chicken who lived a year or two without a head. Look it up, i think there was an article about it in "Times" (somewhere in 1930-s).
Damn, that sounded way too harsh, and i already see how people will misread it. I had so many good points and arguments, but some responses and "facts"(from both sides, mind you) in this tread completely killed my urge to give somewhat comprehensible comments, leaving me in shock.
The more i speak with vegetarians/vegans, the more i have a feeling that they are a members of some cult. So theres no point of keeping up the argument.
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On September 21 2012 11:44 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:42 Dali. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:36 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. Unless I want to eat it. That's more than enough reason. Imagine I am a cannibal and our paths cross in a massive deserted jungle. I chat to you for a while and find out you're on an entripid advanture and haven't seen a soul in a month. No one is with you, no one knows where you are. I am stronger than you and have the neccesary tools to kill and eat you. I know I can get away with it, since no one will know where to begin looking and just assume you've succumbed to nature. Should I cause you, another living being pain, simply for the desire to eat your flesh and muscle, even though I'm surrounded by non-feeling alternatives. Hmmm, what a moral dihlemma. I think for a second, then realise "I want to eat it. That's more than enough reason", and raise my axe.
Animals are not worth the same as humans in an ethical system. Fuck, come on, there is no way you're going to make the argument that they are. I mean really, I'm not an animal hater by any means, I really do like animals and the idea of even accidentally hurting an animal with my own hands is horrible to me, but that said, trying to put animals on the same ethical level as me or any other human is incredibly insulting to humanity.
Substitute "animal" in your post with any minority that was treated badly in the past but which we try to treat equally now (take blacks, jews, whoever you want to) and you can be pretty damn sure that someone said the exact same thing about that group during that time.
Now we call that type of thinking barbaric, immoral and unethical. A few million years ago we used to chop another guys head off for trying to live next to us. We still chop other guys heads off for having a different belief or color of their skin but we can say that "anti-racism" is an appreciated concept in the western world. "Anti-specicism" is nothing more or less than extending that chain of thought.
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On September 21 2012 11:44 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:42 Dali. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:36 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. Unless I want to eat it. That's more than enough reason. Imagine I am a cannibal and our paths cross in a massive deserted jungle. I chat to you for a while and find out you're on an entripid advanture and haven't seen a soul in a month. No one is with you, no one knows where you are. I am stronger than you and have the neccesary tools to kill and eat you. I know I can get away with it, since no one will know where to begin looking and just assume you've succumbed to nature. Should I cause you, another living being pain, simply for the desire to eat your flesh and muscle, even though I'm surrounded by non-feeling alternatives. Hmmm, what a moral dihlemma. I think for a second, then realise "I want to eat it. That's more than enough reason", and raise my axe.
Animals are not worth the same as humans in an ethical system. Fuck, come on, there is no way you're going to make the argument that they are. I mean really, I'm not an animal hater by any means, I really do like animals and the idea of even accidentally hurting an animal with my own hands is horrible to me, but that said, trying to put animals on the same ethical level as me or any other human is incredibly insulting to humanity.
I never put it on the same level. But the argument as such as certainly not weak.
We are absolutely superior in intelligence and capability. But suffering is not exactly some emergent property of being able to geometry. It is engrained in much of life, especially those we call our close cousins. Go beat a dog with a pipe, then a human. In what ways does the behaviour differ? Both will try and avoid it, protect themselves, yell in pain. If we structure our morality in such a way to class suffering as bad, then we ought to extend it as best we can to all suffering creatures.
I mean, there are mentally disabled humans who will be less intelligent then some apes. Which do I have a greater ethical obligation to? Why not ignore species, and treat them as individuals living beings, rather than grouping all non-human things as ethically less important. Species, imo ought to be arbitrary in ethical action (in the same way race is now a non-issue in the ethical treatment of others).
I mean imagine we find a small tribe of non-homosapien 'humans', who possess nearly identical properties to huamns (and also taste delicious). Where ought they be ranked in our ethical ladder? Do we afford them as much ethical consideration as, say a pig? Factory farming them in tiny cages, all for the sake of their delicious meat? I mean, they're not human, so why worry? Or do we consider them ethically relevant becuase they, like us, can suffer.
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I think that many vegans are huge hypocrites. I mean, many of them just do their part and that's great, but others are judgmental fucks and because of that I feel entitled to judge them right back.
It always bothers me when I read posts like OP's and a few vegan radicals who post here. Grand ideas about how veganism is the way to some sort of greater good. But really when you look into it, you find out these things.
1: The so-called objective arguments about the environment are absurd. We could wipe out all of our farm animals to reduce their carbon dioxide output. We could also gut Chinese orphans. Also, if you're so worried about carbon dioxide, why do you drive a car?
2: The moral argument is ambiguous at best and appeals to emotion. The fact that some animals are treated poorly does not mean that we shouldn't have them. We could also gut Chinese orphans since they could have bad lives.
3: Health: Your call. It's your body. But know that you can lead a healthy life without being a vegan.
So I say many of them are hypocrites because they chose that cause among many others, and that cause only. They bring up the environmental issues like they're most important things in the world, but when they're not eating grass they use automobiles and buy shit manufactured in China like the rest of us.
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On September 21 2012 11:51 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:43 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. I stunned and fed a Preying Mantis 3 stink bugs about a week ago. I found both outside and didn't actually kill any of the bugs myself. Does that make me an accomplice to murder or is insects eating other insects not imoral? While I appreciate that you try to treat me as your conscience: I don't know. Personally I love watching a Preying Mantis hunt and eat. I also have the same feeling for Lions. Seeing how nature works in an almost undisturbed way is amazing, it's checks and balances. I think I would also love to see humans hunt their food together. What's over the top for me is taking a bunch of animals, putting them into a small place, causing them immense pain from birth to slaughter and all that to produce something we don't need in the first place. If there's no alternative, fine, go ahead. But they are. We have the brain to explore them and the empathy to feel with other living beings. We can make the conscious thought chain of "I don't want to be treated like that" -> "I don't want to see others being treated like that". Not extending the same privilege to another species? Why the hell not? I don't want a stronger and more intelligent species to show up and raise me as cattle either. Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:41 Olinim wrote:On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice. I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated? It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead. What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species). Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P So which is it? In your second paragraph you say it's completely a personal choice and if they're fine with it go ahead. Then in the very next paragraph you say that it should make them feel guilty. I am also sick of people in this thread equating animals to humans. I said it annoys the crap out of me and that I don't understand how to not feel guilty. I can find neither a logical nor an emotional argument to not feel guilty about it. If you can find either, please tell me about it.
I actually completely agree with you. The way the meat industry generally works is both immoral and unhealthy. A lot of the reason meat consumption has been tied to increased chance of diseases and colon cancer is because of the way it is processed. The fact is if you eat good quality, free range meat it is not unhealthy in moderate portions. I eat a lot of meat and I have been trying cut down.
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On September 21 2012 12:00 Dali. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:44 Stratos_speAr wrote:On September 21 2012 11:42 Dali. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:36 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. Unless I want to eat it. That's more than enough reason. Imagine I am a cannibal and our paths cross in a massive deserted jungle. I chat to you for a while and find out you're on an entripid advanture and haven't seen a soul in a month. No one is with you, no one knows where you are. I am stronger than you and have the neccesary tools to kill and eat you. I know I can get away with it, since no one will know where to begin looking and just assume you've succumbed to nature. Should I cause you, another living being pain, simply for the desire to eat your flesh and muscle, even though I'm surrounded by non-feeling alternatives. Hmmm, what a moral dihlemma. I think for a second, then realise "I want to eat it. That's more than enough reason", and raise my axe.
Animals are not worth the same as humans in an ethical system. Fuck, come on, there is no way you're going to make the argument that they are. I mean really, I'm not an animal hater by any means, I really do like animals and the idea of even accidentally hurting an animal with my own hands is horrible to me, but that said, trying to put animals on the same ethical level as me or any other human is incredibly insulting to humanity. I never put it on the same level. But the argument as such as certainly not weak. We are absolutely superior in intelligence and capability. But suffering is not exactly some emergent property of being able to geometry. It is engrained in much of life, especially those we call our close cousins. Go beat a dog with a pipe, then a human. In what ways does the behaviour differ? Both will try and avoid it, protect themselves, yell in pain. If we structure our morality in such a way to class suffering as bad, then we ought to extend it as best we can to all suffering creatures. I mean, there are mentally disabled humans who will be less intelligent then some apes. Which do I have a greater ethical obligation to? Why not ignore species, and treat them as individuals living beings, rather than grouping all non-human things as ethically less important. Species, imo ought to be arbitrary in ethical action (in the same way race is now a non-issue in the ethical treatment of others). I mean imagine we find a small tribe of non-homosapien 'humans', who possess nearly identical properties to huamns (and also taste delicious). Where ought they be ranked in our ethical ladder? Do we afford them as much ethical consideration as, say a pig? Factory farming them in tiny cages, all for the sake of their delicious meat? I mean, they're not human, so why worry? Or do we consider them ethically relevant becuase they, like us, can suffer.
When we meet this tribe of delicious pygmies, I hope that there is vigorous debate, followed by a jubilant dinner celebration; for that night, we shall feast on the flesh of sub-humans.
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On September 21 2012 12:00 Dali. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:44 Stratos_speAr wrote:On September 21 2012 11:42 Dali. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:36 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. Unless I want to eat it. That's more than enough reason. Imagine I am a cannibal and our paths cross in a massive deserted jungle. I chat to you for a while and find out you're on an entripid advanture and haven't seen a soul in a month. No one is with you, no one knows where you are. I am stronger than you and have the neccesary tools to kill and eat you. I know I can get away with it, since no one will know where to begin looking and just assume you've succumbed to nature. Should I cause you, another living being pain, simply for the desire to eat your flesh and muscle, even though I'm surrounded by non-feeling alternatives. Hmmm, what a moral dihlemma. I think for a second, then realise "I want to eat it. That's more than enough reason", and raise my axe.
Animals are not worth the same as humans in an ethical system. Fuck, come on, there is no way you're going to make the argument that they are. I mean really, I'm not an animal hater by any means, I really do like animals and the idea of even accidentally hurting an animal with my own hands is horrible to me, but that said, trying to put animals on the same ethical level as me or any other human is incredibly insulting to humanity. I never put it on the same level. But the argument as such as certainly not weak. We are absolutely superior in intelligence and capability. But suffering is not exactly some emergent property of being able to geometry. It is engrained in much of life, especially those we call our close cousins. Go beat a dog with a pipe, then a human. In what ways does the behaviour differ? Both will try and avoid it, protect themselves, yell in pain. If we structure our morality in such a way to class suffering as bad, then we ought to extend it as best we can to all suffering creatures. I mean, there are mentally disabled humans who will be less intelligent then some apes. Which do I have a greater ethical obligation to? Why not ignore species, and treat them as individuals living beings, rather than grouping all non-human things as ethically less important. Species, imo ought to be arbitrary in ethical action (in the same way race is now a non-issue in the ethical treatment of others). I mean imagine we find a small tribe of non-homosapien 'humans', who possess nearly identical properties to huamns (and also taste delicious). Where ought they be ranked in our ethical ladder? Do we afford them as much ethical consideration as, say a pig? Factory farming them in tiny cages, all for the sake of their delicious meat? I mean, they're not human, so why worry? Or do we consider them ethically relevant becuase they, like us, can suffer.
Race is a non-issue because there are no significant differences between races. This is clearly not the case between species. By your logic, fumigating my house is equivalent to mass murder. As for your hypothetical, obviously we wouldn't "rank" them the same as a pig since they are of equivalent intelligence and consciousness.
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On September 21 2012 11:58 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:54 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:45 Olinim wrote:On September 21 2012 11:40 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:37 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice. I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated? It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead. What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species). Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P Oh wow, you didnt just compare an 8 year old HUMAN girl to a cow did you? I suppose Hitler comes next, out of this thread now. If you want to go there, sure: please tell me a major difference between a concentration camp and a slaughterhouse besides "humans vs animals". Please keep in mind that "they aren't humans, they are lesser beings, animals" was one of the main "reasons" which made it "morally okay" to make it happen in the first place. Oh and look here we are. People comparing a slaughterhouse to the freaking holocaust. Rather: Oh, look here we are. Instead of actually trying to understand why that comparison makes perfect sense APART from "animals != humans" you prefer to make a snide comment. Actually the other difference I can think of "no one intended to eat those people". The scary thing for me personally is the incredibly number of similarities between those cases. What you fail to realize is that a great many people consider the very notion of an attempt at seperating the atrocity of the holocaust and the humanity involved a terrible insult to those who died. You are basically saying "Hey, I'm going to use your people's genocide, pretend humanity is divorcible from it, and apply it to non-humans."
That's a terrible insult? What I find to be a much bigger insult is to pretend that any of the people who died would want to see any other being suffer like they did. The reason we find the holocaust to be something insane that should never happen again is because we're able to find our own conscious logic between the fucked-up 'logical' reasoning ("they are sub-humans which deserve to not be treated equal") and our own emotional response if we think about those people as "fellow human beings" which leads to: "it's insane".
To put it into perspective I'll just go on with another quote that is all over this thread:
On September 21 2012 11:55 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:51 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:43 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. I stunned and fed a Preying Mantis 3 stink bugs about a week ago. I found both outside and didn't actually kill any of the bugs myself. Does that make me an accomplice to murder or is insects eating other insects not imoral? While I appreciate that you try to treat me as your conscience: I don't know. Personally I love watching a Preying Mantis hunt and eat. I also have the same feeling for Lions. Seeing how nature works in an almost undisturbed way is amazing, it's checks and balances. I think I would also love to see humans hunt their food together. What's over the top for me is taking a bunch of animals, putting them into a small place, causing them immense pain from birth to slaughter and all that to produce something we don't need in the first place. If there's no alternative, fine, go ahead. But they are. We have the brain to explore them and the empathy to feel with other living beings. We can make the conscious thought chain of "I don't want to be treated like that" -> "I don't want to see others being treated like that". Not extending the same privilege to another species? Why the hell not? I don't want a stronger and more intelligent species to show up and raise me as cattle either. On September 21 2012 11:41 Olinim wrote:On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice. I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated? It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead. What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species). Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P So which is it? In your second paragraph you say it's completely a personal choice and if they're fine with it go ahead. Then in the very next paragraph you say that it should make them feel guilty. I am also sick of people in this thread equating animals to humans. I said it annoys the crap out of me and that I don't understand how to not feel guilty. I can find neither a logical nor an emotional argument to not feel guilty about it. If you can find either, please tell me about it. There's an innumerable amount of species that have eaten meat since the birth of said species. If anything can be said to be natural, meat-eating surely can. Animals eat other animals that are lower on the food chain. Every animal is lower us. There's your logical argument for eating meat.
What you're saying is "We're just another animal". Personally, I think the step from "fuck, we can't do that to another fellow human" now says "fuck, we can't do that to another fellow animal".
We're not forced by instinct to eat meat. We're not forced to eat it because it's the only option we have. We can make the conscious decision whether we want to go down that path or not with every meal we eat. We as a species evolved above all those things. What's wrong with also evolving the way we think about other living beings?
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On September 21 2012 11:46 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:42 Dali. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:36 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. Unless I want to eat it. That's more than enough reason. Imagine I am a cannibal and our paths cross in a massive deserted jungle. I chat to you for a while and find out you're on an entripid advanture and haven't seen a soul in a month. No one is with you, no one knows where you are. I am stronger than you and have the neccesary tools to kill and eat you. I know I can get away with it, since no one will know where to begin looking and just assume you've succumbed to nature. Should I cause you, another living being pain, simply for the desire to eat your flesh and muscle, even though I'm surrounded by non-feeling alternatives. Hmmm, what a moral dihlemma. I think for a second, then realise "I want to eat it. That's more than enough reason", and raise my axe. First off, your entire scenario requires that humans and animals share some overarching degree of equivalency; I find this totally nonsensical. Furthermore, just to play your game, I take excellent care of myself and am well practiced in outdoor survival, in addition to being above average in size and strength. Come at me bro.
Ok lets add one tweak. I happen to consider you of a lesser race than I, and do not afford you the same ethical relevance. As such it is nonsensical for me to afford you any mercy from my whims. I now eat you.
I'm sure we can all think of a time where this viewpoint was common (and perhaps still is). It is my belief that a time will come where our view of animals will change just as it has with certain groups of humans.
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On September 21 2012 12:00 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:44 Stratos_speAr wrote:On September 21 2012 11:42 Dali. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:36 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. Unless I want to eat it. That's more than enough reason. Imagine I am a cannibal and our paths cross in a massive deserted jungle. I chat to you for a while and find out you're on an entripid advanture and haven't seen a soul in a month. No one is with you, no one knows where you are. I am stronger than you and have the neccesary tools to kill and eat you. I know I can get away with it, since no one will know where to begin looking and just assume you've succumbed to nature. Should I cause you, another living being pain, simply for the desire to eat your flesh and muscle, even though I'm surrounded by non-feeling alternatives. Hmmm, what a moral dihlemma. I think for a second, then realise "I want to eat it. That's more than enough reason", and raise my axe.
Animals are not worth the same as humans in an ethical system. Fuck, come on, there is no way you're going to make the argument that they are. I mean really, I'm not an animal hater by any means, I really do like animals and the idea of even accidentally hurting an animal with my own hands is horrible to me, but that said, trying to put animals on the same ethical level as me or any other human is incredibly insulting to humanity. Substitute "animal" in your post with any minority that was treated badly in the past but which we try to treat equally now (take blacks, jews, whoever you want to) and you can be pretty damn sure that someone said the exact same thing about that group during that time. Now we call that type of thinking barbaric, immoral and unethical. A few million years ago we used to chop another guys head off for trying to live next to us. We still chop other guys heads off for having a different belief or color of their skin but we can say that "anti-racism" is an appreciated concept in the western world. "Anti-specicism" is nothing more or less than extending that chain of thought.
We call it immoral because those minorities were still human fucking beings. The fact that you try to compare the hardships that Jews have gone through for thousands of years, that black have gone through in America, that countless other minorities have gone through in countless other cultures, to a fucking animal that has no higher intelligence and isn't even self-aware is so incredibly insulting that you deserve to be smacked right now. I am seriously floored that you can't understand how insulting it is to compare things like minority suffering and the Holocaust to animals.
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On September 21 2012 12:07 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:58 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2012 11:54 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:45 Olinim wrote:On September 21 2012 11:40 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:37 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. [quote] That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice. I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated? It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead. What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species). Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P Oh wow, you didnt just compare an 8 year old HUMAN girl to a cow did you? I suppose Hitler comes next, out of this thread now. If you want to go there, sure: please tell me a major difference between a concentration camp and a slaughterhouse besides "humans vs animals". Please keep in mind that "they aren't humans, they are lesser beings, animals" was one of the main "reasons" which made it "morally okay" to make it happen in the first place. Oh and look here we are. People comparing a slaughterhouse to the freaking holocaust. Rather: Oh, look here we are. Instead of actually trying to understand why that comparison makes perfect sense APART from "animals != humans" you prefer to make a snide comment. Actually the other difference I can think of "no one intended to eat those people". The scary thing for me personally is the incredibly number of similarities between those cases. What you fail to realize is that a great many people consider the very notion of an attempt at seperating the atrocity of the holocaust and the humanity involved a terrible insult to those who died. You are basically saying "Hey, I'm going to use your people's genocide, pretend humanity is divorcible from it, and apply it to non-humans." That's a terrible insult? What I find to be a much bigger insult is to pretend that any of the people who died would want to see any other being suffer like they did. The reason we find the holocaust to be something insane that should never happen again is because we're able to find our own conscious logic between the fucked-up 'logical' reasoning ("they are sub-humans which deserve to not be treated equal") and our own emotional response if we think about those people as "fellow human beings" which leads to: "it's insane". To put it into perspective I'll just go on with another quote that is all over this thread: Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:55 Stratos_speAr wrote:On September 21 2012 11:51 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:43 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. I stunned and fed a Preying Mantis 3 stink bugs about a week ago. I found both outside and didn't actually kill any of the bugs myself. Does that make me an accomplice to murder or is insects eating other insects not imoral? While I appreciate that you try to treat me as your conscience: I don't know. Personally I love watching a Preying Mantis hunt and eat. I also have the same feeling for Lions. Seeing how nature works in an almost undisturbed way is amazing, it's checks and balances. I think I would also love to see humans hunt their food together. What's over the top for me is taking a bunch of animals, putting them into a small place, causing them immense pain from birth to slaughter and all that to produce something we don't need in the first place. If there's no alternative, fine, go ahead. But they are. We have the brain to explore them and the empathy to feel with other living beings. We can make the conscious thought chain of "I don't want to be treated like that" -> "I don't want to see others being treated like that". Not extending the same privilege to another species? Why the hell not? I don't want a stronger and more intelligent species to show up and raise me as cattle either. On September 21 2012 11:41 Olinim wrote:On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice. I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated? It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead. What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species). Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P So which is it? In your second paragraph you say it's completely a personal choice and if they're fine with it go ahead. Then in the very next paragraph you say that it should make them feel guilty. I am also sick of people in this thread equating animals to humans. I said it annoys the crap out of me and that I don't understand how to not feel guilty. I can find neither a logical nor an emotional argument to not feel guilty about it. If you can find either, please tell me about it. There's an innumerable amount of species that have eaten meat since the birth of said species. If anything can be said to be natural, meat-eating surely can. Animals eat other animals that are lower on the food chain. Every animal is lower us. There's your logical argument for eating meat. What you're saying is "We're just another animal". Personally, I think the step from "fuck, we can't do that to another fellow human" now says "fuck, we can't do that to another fellow animal". We're not forced by instinct to eat meat. We're not forced to eat it because it's the only option we have. We can make the conscious decision whether we want to go down that path or not with every meal we eat. We as a species evolved above all those things. What's wrong with also evolving the way we think about other living beings?
Because, other than a passing reference to some universal equality of "beings", you and other defenders of veganism fail to provide a good reason to equate humans with animals.
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We, as humans, do not chew our cud or anything of the like. We can't even digest plant material properly in our stomach.
We are secondary consumers, not primary herbivores. It isn't efficient, but our bodies are designed to take in energy from meat supplemented with vegetation.
Debating the ethical/moral/health reasons that the food INDUSTRY is treating animals a certain way/processing food for our consumption is an entirely different debate, but for the purposes of being purely healthy, vegan-ism is definitely not necessary.
You can eat organic meat and animal products too. Or did your documentaries you watched not cover their health benefits, op? I think you had a bit of expectism when you were watching/looking into the whole vegan thing. You WANTED it to be true as you began researching it, so you found the logic to justify it.
Just my thoughts.
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On September 21 2012 12:01 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:51 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:43 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. I stunned and fed a Preying Mantis 3 stink bugs about a week ago. I found both outside and didn't actually kill any of the bugs myself. Does that make me an accomplice to murder or is insects eating other insects not imoral? While I appreciate that you try to treat me as your conscience: I don't know. Personally I love watching a Preying Mantis hunt and eat. I also have the same feeling for Lions. Seeing how nature works in an almost undisturbed way is amazing, it's checks and balances. I think I would also love to see humans hunt their food together. What's over the top for me is taking a bunch of animals, putting them into a small place, causing them immense pain from birth to slaughter and all that to produce something we don't need in the first place. If there's no alternative, fine, go ahead. But they are. We have the brain to explore them and the empathy to feel with other living beings. We can make the conscious thought chain of "I don't want to be treated like that" -> "I don't want to see others being treated like that". Not extending the same privilege to another species? Why the hell not? I don't want a stronger and more intelligent species to show up and raise me as cattle either. On September 21 2012 11:41 Olinim wrote:On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice. I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated? It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead. What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species). Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P So which is it? In your second paragraph you say it's completely a personal choice and if they're fine with it go ahead. Then in the very next paragraph you say that it should make them feel guilty. I am also sick of people in this thread equating animals to humans. I said it annoys the crap out of me and that I don't understand how to not feel guilty. I can find neither a logical nor an emotional argument to not feel guilty about it. If you can find either, please tell me about it. I actually completely agree with you. The way the meat industry generally works is both immoral and unhealthy. A lot of the reason meat consumption has been tied to increased chance of diseases and colon cancer is because of the way it is processed. The fact is if you eat good quality, free range meat it is not unhealthy in moderate portions. I eat a lot of meat and I have been trying cut down.
Completely agree. I don't see a big difference between someone aiming to consume good quality meat once a week and someone being completely vegan or vegetarian (even though most of those would prolly throw rocks at me for that statement =P). That's an attitude which showcases that someone thought about the whole issue and made a conscious decision.
"I eat meat because it's here and I like it and that's all now leave me alone" is an attitude I don't want to tolerate. It showcases the absolute worst that humanity has to offer. Then again, that's not about eating meat in general anymore as I said earlier. That's about ignorance and a low intellect and probably applies to most other subjects as well.
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On September 21 2012 12:09 Dali. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:46 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2012 11:42 Dali. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:36 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. Unless I want to eat it. That's more than enough reason. Imagine I am a cannibal and our paths cross in a massive deserted jungle. I chat to you for a while and find out you're on an entripid advanture and haven't seen a soul in a month. No one is with you, no one knows where you are. I am stronger than you and have the neccesary tools to kill and eat you. I know I can get away with it, since no one will know where to begin looking and just assume you've succumbed to nature. Should I cause you, another living being pain, simply for the desire to eat your flesh and muscle, even though I'm surrounded by non-feeling alternatives. Hmmm, what a moral dihlemma. I think for a second, then realise "I want to eat it. That's more than enough reason", and raise my axe. First off, your entire scenario requires that humans and animals share some overarching degree of equivalency; I find this totally nonsensical. Furthermore, just to play your game, I take excellent care of myself and am well practiced in outdoor survival, in addition to being above average in size and strength. Come at me bro. Ok lets add one tweak. I happen to consider you of a lesser race than I, and do not afford you the same ethical relevance. As such it is nonsensical for me to afford you any mercy from my whims. I now eat you. I'm sure we can all think of a time where this viewpoint was common (and perhaps still is). It is my belief that a time will come where our view of animals will change just as it has with certain groups of humans.
Again, you are simply expounding on the meaningless edge that gives way to the massive canyon that is the jump from people to animals. No, the difference between white and black people is not akin to the difference between humans and animals, not even close, and it in fact is incredibly insulting to those with minority racial status to hypothesize as such.
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On September 21 2012 12:06 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 12:00 Dali. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:44 Stratos_speAr wrote:On September 21 2012 11:42 Dali. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:36 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. [quote] That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. Unless I want to eat it. That's more than enough reason. Imagine I am a cannibal and our paths cross in a massive deserted jungle. I chat to you for a while and find out you're on an entripid advanture and haven't seen a soul in a month. No one is with you, no one knows where you are. I am stronger than you and have the neccesary tools to kill and eat you. I know I can get away with it, since no one will know where to begin looking and just assume you've succumbed to nature. Should I cause you, another living being pain, simply for the desire to eat your flesh and muscle, even though I'm surrounded by non-feeling alternatives. Hmmm, what a moral dihlemma. I think for a second, then realise "I want to eat it. That's more than enough reason", and raise my axe.
Animals are not worth the same as humans in an ethical system. Fuck, come on, there is no way you're going to make the argument that they are. I mean really, I'm not an animal hater by any means, I really do like animals and the idea of even accidentally hurting an animal with my own hands is horrible to me, but that said, trying to put animals on the same ethical level as me or any other human is incredibly insulting to humanity. I never put it on the same level. But the argument as such as certainly not weak. We are absolutely superior in intelligence and capability. But suffering is not exactly some emergent property of being able to geometry. It is engrained in much of life, especially those we call our close cousins. Go beat a dog with a pipe, then a human. In what ways does the behaviour differ? Both will try and avoid it, protect themselves, yell in pain. If we structure our morality in such a way to class suffering as bad, then we ought to extend it as best we can to all suffering creatures. I mean, there are mentally disabled humans who will be less intelligent then some apes. Which do I have a greater ethical obligation to? Why not ignore species, and treat them as individuals living beings, rather than grouping all non-human things as ethically less important. Species, imo ought to be arbitrary in ethical action (in the same way race is now a non-issue in the ethical treatment of others). I mean imagine we find a small tribe of non-homosapien 'humans', who possess nearly identical properties to huamns (and also taste delicious). Where ought they be ranked in our ethical ladder? Do we afford them as much ethical consideration as, say a pig? Factory farming them in tiny cages, all for the sake of their delicious meat? I mean, they're not human, so why worry? Or do we consider them ethically relevant becuase they, like us, can suffer. Race is a non-issue because there are no significant differences between races. This is clearly not the case between species. By your logic, fumigating my house is equivalent to mass murder. As for your hypothetical, obviously we wouldn't "rank" them the same as a pig since they are of equivalent intelligence and consciousness.
So if ranking them is dependent on intelligence and consciousness, why can I not eat a severely mentally disablled child who is of the same intellectual level as a pig* (ignoring the awkwardness that would ensue)? Isn't capacity to suffer a better benchmark?
*I apoligize if this is offensive, it is not my intention and I have no desire to encourage a negative or harmful view towards disabled people. It is simply for the sake of argument.
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On September 21 2012 12:09 Dali. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:46 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2012 11:42 Dali. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:36 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. Unless I want to eat it. That's more than enough reason. Imagine I am a cannibal and our paths cross in a massive deserted jungle. I chat to you for a while and find out you're on an entripid advanture and haven't seen a soul in a month. No one is with you, no one knows where you are. I am stronger than you and have the neccesary tools to kill and eat you. I know I can get away with it, since no one will know where to begin looking and just assume you've succumbed to nature. Should I cause you, another living being pain, simply for the desire to eat your flesh and muscle, even though I'm surrounded by non-feeling alternatives. Hmmm, what a moral dihlemma. I think for a second, then realise "I want to eat it. That's more than enough reason", and raise my axe. First off, your entire scenario requires that humans and animals share some overarching degree of equivalency; I find this totally nonsensical. Furthermore, just to play your game, I take excellent care of myself and am well practiced in outdoor survival, in addition to being above average in size and strength. Come at me bro. Ok lets add one tweak. I happen to consider you of a lesser race than I, and do not afford you the same ethical relevance. As such it is nonsensical for me to afford you any mercy from my whims. I now eat you. I'm sure we can all think of a time where this viewpoint was common (and perhaps still is). It is my belief that a time will come where our view of animals will change just as it has with certain groups of humans.
To be fair, just because you have a bigoted view (in your hypothetical situation), does not make your scenario justifiable.
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On September 21 2012 12:07 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:58 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2012 11:54 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:45 Olinim wrote:On September 21 2012 11:40 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:37 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. [quote] That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice. I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated? It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead. What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species). Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P Oh wow, you didnt just compare an 8 year old HUMAN girl to a cow did you? I suppose Hitler comes next, out of this thread now. If you want to go there, sure: please tell me a major difference between a concentration camp and a slaughterhouse besides "humans vs animals". Please keep in mind that "they aren't humans, they are lesser beings, animals" was one of the main "reasons" which made it "morally okay" to make it happen in the first place. Oh and look here we are. People comparing a slaughterhouse to the freaking holocaust. Rather: Oh, look here we are. Instead of actually trying to understand why that comparison makes perfect sense APART from "animals != humans" you prefer to make a snide comment. Actually the other difference I can think of "no one intended to eat those people". The scary thing for me personally is the incredibly number of similarities between those cases. What you fail to realize is that a great many people consider the very notion of an attempt at seperating the atrocity of the holocaust and the humanity involved a terrible insult to those who died. You are basically saying "Hey, I'm going to use your people's genocide, pretend humanity is divorcible from it, and apply it to non-humans." That's a terrible insult? What I find to be a much bigger insult is to pretend that any of the people who died would want to see any other being suffer like they did. The reason we find the holocaust to be something insane that should never happen again is because we're able to find our own conscious logic between the fucked-up 'logical' reasoning ("they are sub-humans which deserve to not be treated equal") and our own emotional response if we think about those people as "fellow human beings" which leads to: "it's insane". To put it into perspective I'll just go on with another quote that is all over this thread: Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 11:55 Stratos_speAr wrote:On September 21 2012 11:51 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:43 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. I stunned and fed a Preying Mantis 3 stink bugs about a week ago. I found both outside and didn't actually kill any of the bugs myself. Does that make me an accomplice to murder or is insects eating other insects not imoral? While I appreciate that you try to treat me as your conscience: I don't know. Personally I love watching a Preying Mantis hunt and eat. I also have the same feeling for Lions. Seeing how nature works in an almost undisturbed way is amazing, it's checks and balances. I think I would also love to see humans hunt their food together. What's over the top for me is taking a bunch of animals, putting them into a small place, causing them immense pain from birth to slaughter and all that to produce something we don't need in the first place. If there's no alternative, fine, go ahead. But they are. We have the brain to explore them and the empathy to feel with other living beings. We can make the conscious thought chain of "I don't want to be treated like that" -> "I don't want to see others being treated like that". Not extending the same privilege to another species? Why the hell not? I don't want a stronger and more intelligent species to show up and raise me as cattle either. On September 21 2012 11:41 Olinim wrote:On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice. I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated? It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead. What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species). Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P So which is it? In your second paragraph you say it's completely a personal choice and if they're fine with it go ahead. Then in the very next paragraph you say that it should make them feel guilty. I am also sick of people in this thread equating animals to humans. I said it annoys the crap out of me and that I don't understand how to not feel guilty. I can find neither a logical nor an emotional argument to not feel guilty about it. If you can find either, please tell me about it. There's an innumerable amount of species that have eaten meat since the birth of said species. If anything can be said to be natural, meat-eating surely can. Animals eat other animals that are lower on the food chain. Every animal is lower us. There's your logical argument for eating meat. What you're saying is "We're just another animal". Personally, I think the step from "fuck, we can't do that to another fellow human" now says "fuck, we can't do that to another fellow animal". We're not forced by instinct to eat meat. We're not forced to eat it because it's the only option we have. We can make the conscious decision whether we want to go down that path or not with every meal we eat. We as a species evolved above all those things. What's wrong with also evolving the way we think about other living beings?
But they didn't. A pig did not suffer like a Jew that was murdered in the holocaust. A pig did not have hopes and dreams as well as a complete understanding of the fate that awaited it. Then have to watch its close family is taken or killed in a gas chamber. You comparing a pig to that is disgusting.
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On September 21 2012 12:10 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 12:07 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:58 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2012 11:54 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:45 Olinim wrote:On September 21 2012 11:40 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:37 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:
[quote]
I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me.
We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice. I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated? It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead. What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species). Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P Oh wow, you didnt just compare an 8 year old HUMAN girl to a cow did you? I suppose Hitler comes next, out of this thread now. If you want to go there, sure: please tell me a major difference between a concentration camp and a slaughterhouse besides "humans vs animals". Please keep in mind that "they aren't humans, they are lesser beings, animals" was one of the main "reasons" which made it "morally okay" to make it happen in the first place. Oh and look here we are. People comparing a slaughterhouse to the freaking holocaust. Rather: Oh, look here we are. Instead of actually trying to understand why that comparison makes perfect sense APART from "animals != humans" you prefer to make a snide comment. Actually the other difference I can think of "no one intended to eat those people". The scary thing for me personally is the incredibly number of similarities between those cases. What you fail to realize is that a great many people consider the very notion of an attempt at seperating the atrocity of the holocaust and the humanity involved a terrible insult to those who died. You are basically saying "Hey, I'm going to use your people's genocide, pretend humanity is divorcible from it, and apply it to non-humans." That's a terrible insult? What I find to be a much bigger insult is to pretend that any of the people who died would want to see any other being suffer like they did. The reason we find the holocaust to be something insane that should never happen again is because we're able to find our own conscious logic between the fucked-up 'logical' reasoning ("they are sub-humans which deserve to not be treated equal") and our own emotional response if we think about those people as "fellow human beings" which leads to: "it's insane". To put it into perspective I'll just go on with another quote that is all over this thread: On September 21 2012 11:55 Stratos_speAr wrote:On September 21 2012 11:51 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:43 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. [quote] That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. I stunned and fed a Preying Mantis 3 stink bugs about a week ago. I found both outside and didn't actually kill any of the bugs myself. Does that make me an accomplice to murder or is insects eating other insects not imoral? While I appreciate that you try to treat me as your conscience: I don't know. Personally I love watching a Preying Mantis hunt and eat. I also have the same feeling for Lions. Seeing how nature works in an almost undisturbed way is amazing, it's checks and balances. I think I would also love to see humans hunt their food together. What's over the top for me is taking a bunch of animals, putting them into a small place, causing them immense pain from birth to slaughter and all that to produce something we don't need in the first place. If there's no alternative, fine, go ahead. But they are. We have the brain to explore them and the empathy to feel with other living beings. We can make the conscious thought chain of "I don't want to be treated like that" -> "I don't want to see others being treated like that". Not extending the same privilege to another species? Why the hell not? I don't want a stronger and more intelligent species to show up and raise me as cattle either. On September 21 2012 11:41 Olinim wrote:On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice. I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated? It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead. What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species). Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P So which is it? In your second paragraph you say it's completely a personal choice and if they're fine with it go ahead. Then in the very next paragraph you say that it should make them feel guilty. I am also sick of people in this thread equating animals to humans. I said it annoys the crap out of me and that I don't understand how to not feel guilty. I can find neither a logical nor an emotional argument to not feel guilty about it. If you can find either, please tell me about it. There's an innumerable amount of species that have eaten meat since the birth of said species. If anything can be said to be natural, meat-eating surely can. Animals eat other animals that are lower on the food chain. Every animal is lower us. There's your logical argument for eating meat. What you're saying is "We're just another animal". Personally, I think the step from "fuck, we can't do that to another fellow human" now says "fuck, we can't do that to another fellow animal". We're not forced by instinct to eat meat. We're not forced to eat it because it's the only option we have. We can make the conscious decision whether we want to go down that path or not with every meal we eat. We as a species evolved above all those things. What's wrong with also evolving the way we think about other living beings? Because, other than a passing reference to some universal equality of "beings", you and other defenders of veganism fail to provide a good reason to equate humans with animals.
"I can see how it suffers for my pleasure. I don't want other beings to suffer for my pleasure."
That's all the reasoning I need personally. :o ... Where do you disagree? You think it's okay for someone to suffer because of weakness or lesser intelligence?
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