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On September 21 2012 12:13 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 12:01 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:51 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:43 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. I stunned and fed a Preying Mantis 3 stink bugs about a week ago. I found both outside and didn't actually kill any of the bugs myself. Does that make me an accomplice to murder or is insects eating other insects not imoral? While I appreciate that you try to treat me as your conscience: I don't know. Personally I love watching a Preying Mantis hunt and eat. I also have the same feeling for Lions. Seeing how nature works in an almost undisturbed way is amazing, it's checks and balances. I think I would also love to see humans hunt their food together. What's over the top for me is taking a bunch of animals, putting them into a small place, causing them immense pain from birth to slaughter and all that to produce something we don't need in the first place. If there's no alternative, fine, go ahead. But they are. We have the brain to explore them and the empathy to feel with other living beings. We can make the conscious thought chain of "I don't want to be treated like that" -> "I don't want to see others being treated like that". Not extending the same privilege to another species? Why the hell not? I don't want a stronger and more intelligent species to show up and raise me as cattle either. On September 21 2012 11:41 Olinim wrote:On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice. I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated? It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead. What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species). Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P So which is it? In your second paragraph you say it's completely a personal choice and if they're fine with it go ahead. Then in the very next paragraph you say that it should make them feel guilty. I am also sick of people in this thread equating animals to humans. I said it annoys the crap out of me and that I don't understand how to not feel guilty. I can find neither a logical nor an emotional argument to not feel guilty about it. If you can find either, please tell me about it. I actually completely agree with you. The way the meat industry generally works is both immoral and unhealthy. A lot of the reason meat consumption has been tied to increased chance of diseases and colon cancer is because of the way it is processed. The fact is if you eat good quality, free range meat it is not unhealthy in moderate portions. I eat a lot of meat and I have been trying cut down. Completely agree. I don't see a big difference between someone aiming to consume good quality meat once a week and someone being completely vegan or vegetarian (even though most of those would prolly throw rocks at me for that statement =P). That's an attitude which showcases that someone thought about the whole issue and made a conscious decision. "I eat meat because it's here and I like it and that's all now leave me alone" is an attitude I don't want to tolerate. It showcases the absolute worst that humanity has to offer. Then again, that's not about eating meat in general anymore as I said earlier. That's about ignorance and a low intellect and probably applies to most other subjects as well.
The quality of the meat and dairy products you consume certainly has a huuuge impact on health, yes. Eating prime quality, organic meats and cheeses for instance is a lot healthier than eating McDonald's and hotdogs in which you consume massive quantities of preservatives, chemicals, genetically modified products, etc.
However, in general, the nature of meat and dairy is not healthy for our bodies to process, despite being organic and prime quality or not. Meat and dairy products have the highest contents of fats, bad cholesterol, saturated fats, and acidic animal-based protein of any other food we consume. They are direct contributors to the #1 and #2 leading killers in the US -- heart disease and numerous cancers. They also cause many other chronic illnesses like coronary heart disease, diabetes, osteoporosis, etc
If we abstain from consuming these foods, we can remove our risk of nearly ever having these major illnesses and diseases in our lives.
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Actually you chose (a) Humans are sacred. What your argument appears to boil down to is that because you are human, humans matter to you. Other animals/aliens are not human, so you have no ethical obligations to them. This is akin to what a christian might believe when the bible speaks of the earth as being under human stewardship and humans as god's special creation, whilst everything else is disposable, irrelevant and soulless. Biology demonstrates that humans are infact animals, and share many similarities which fellow life forms. These lifeforms, though less intelligent, are still capable of suffering in a manner similar to us. To me, this is what gives them ethical relevance. I've tried to understand opposing arguments, but they all seem severely faulty or undeveloped.
Anyways. I have work, maybe there will be some more stuff once I get back. Its been fun everyone, no hard feelings!
<3
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On September 21 2012 13:14 Dali. wrote:
Actually you chose (a) Humans are sacred. What your argument appears to boil down to is that because you are human, humans matter to you. Other animals/aliens are not human, so you have no ethical obligations to them. This is akin to what a christian might believe when the bible speaks of the earth as being under human stewardship and humans as god's special creation, whilst everything else is disposable, irrelevant and soulless. Biology demonstrates that humans are infact animals, and share many similarities which fellow life forms. These lifeforms, though less intelligent, are still capable of suffering in a manner similar to us. To me, this is what gives them ethical relevance. I've tried to understand opposing arguments, but they all seem severely faulty or undeveloped.
Anyways. I have work, maybe there will be some more stuff once I get back. Its been fun everyone, no hard feelings!
<3
No, not eating your own is a biological imperative (instinct) that many higher biological beings have, it has nothing to do with religion.
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On September 21 2012 13:08 brokor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 12:46 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 12:39 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2012 12:34 Dali. wrote:On September 21 2012 12:32 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2012 12:23 Dali. wrote:On September 21 2012 12:13 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2012 12:09 Dali. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:46 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2012 11:42 Dali. wrote:
[quote]
Imagine I am a cannibal and our paths cross in a massive deserted jungle. I chat to you for a while and find out you're on an entripid advanture and haven't seen a soul in a month. No one is with you, no one knows where you are. I am stronger than you and have the neccesary tools to kill and eat you. I know I can get away with it, since no one will know where to begin looking and just assume you've succumbed to nature. Should I cause you, another living being pain, simply for the desire to eat your flesh and muscle, even though I'm surrounded by non-feeling alternatives. Hmmm, what a moral dihlemma. I think for a second, then realise "I want to eat it. That's more than enough reason", and raise my axe. First off, your entire scenario requires that humans and animals share some overarching degree of equivalency; I find this totally nonsensical. Furthermore, just to play your game, I take excellent care of myself and am well practiced in outdoor survival, in addition to being above average in size and strength. Come at me bro. Ok lets add one tweak. I happen to consider you of a lesser race than I, and do not afford you the same ethical relevance. As such it is nonsensical for me to afford you any mercy from my whims. I now eat you. I'm sure we can all think of a time where this viewpoint was common (and perhaps still is). It is my belief that a time will come where our view of animals will change just as it has with certain groups of humans. Again, you are simply expounding on the meaningless edge that gives way to the massive canyon that is the jump from people to animals. No, the difference between white and black people is not akin to the difference between humans and animals, not even close, and it in fact is incredibly insulting to those with minority racial status to hypothesize as such. I didn't say minority and I didn't suggest it is the case. I simply presented my character with a reason to avoid your complaints about equivalency. I understand that there is a difference between humans and animals. The massive contrast in ethical obligation to human vs non-humans seems to be predicated upon the idea that either a) humans are sacred, or b) humans are smarter. I deny case (a) by simply acknowledging that humans are animals themselves and have comparable pain reception as other mammals. I deny case (b) by appealing to the ethical obligaiton we give a severly mentally disabled child, even though that child is not smarter than, lets say a pig (which we have no trouble culling and eating).* Surely if intelligence was the core factor, I'd eat the child and not the pig. *I apologize if this is offensive, it is only for the sake of argument. Retarded children and pigs are not even close to similar enough to warrent even the very beginnings of comparison. I'll take that as your inability to provide a sufficient counter argument. Any other takers? Instead, you should take that as a deferred anger at the incredulity you insist upon as a salient comparison. My brother has downs syndrome, and as a result, I've come into contact with a great many people who struggle with developmental disability, either they themselves or with that of a relative or loved one. That, for the purposes of an online debate, you are so eager to appropriate the terribly unfortunate scenarios of others (HUMAN BEINGS) and use them as a shoddy means of defending your supposed vegan superiority is quite telling of how absolutely bankrupt your position truly is. From Jews and Jim Crow Laws to retards and the disabled, both you and r.Evo are clearly desperate for a means of comparison. Allright. I doubt you or anyone else with your stance will ever do it because it could compromise your views and your attitude but there's usually a point in those discussions where there's no other choice but this one. If you can watch the movie below through the end and still say "I don't give a fuck, animals are supposed to be slaughtered for my food" then just tell any vegan/most veggies who tries to talk to you about this topic that you did just that. They will most likely never bother you again.http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6361872964130308142 This guy is why people can't stomach vegans. We get it you love animals and wouldn't hurt them. Stop trying to convert us and go about your life while we lead ours the way we like it. And no, i don't have to watch a militant video just to get you off my back. being a vegan doesn't give you the right to get on your high horse and insult people or tell them what to do. Live and let live. wanting people to be like you only reveals your insecurities.
I want people to use their brains instead of giving me "I eat meat that's how I roll it's none of your business". If someone tells me "I hate black people it's not your problem, stfu" I act exactly the same. If someone can't give a rational reasoning for what he's doing, he's stupid. That's not an insult, it's an observation. If someone can't relate to others he shows a lack of empathy. If someone claims that animals don't suffer it's a mix of both.
PS: I'm not vegan.
PPS: I try to live as vegan as possible without it ruining my quality of life. If I buy milk in a store it will most likely be soy, if I'm im at someone's house I won't bitch about normal milk. If you consider the expectation that human beings should use their brain and consciously live their lives insulting and sitting on a high horse then I'm pretty happy about it.
Not thinking about why you eat what you eat or not wanting to know how it's produced is on the exact same level as not thinking about why you like or dislike a certain group of people and not wanting to understand them if they have a different background than you do. It's ignorant and stupid.
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On September 21 2012 13:07 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 12:55 CatfooD wrote:On September 21 2012 12:48 DropBear wrote:
How many starving kids in Africa are vegan?
Veganism is only possible from being in a society that allows excess. Close to 100% of them are vegans, or at best vegetarian. You need to understand more about the nature of meat eating to realize that you have it backwards. Meat farming is absurdly more costly than farming grains, fruits, and vegetables. Eating meat in places of poverty is considered more of a delicacy than an everyday consumption like we are used to in the west. It is several times more inexpensive to harvest grains and vegetables than it is to produce meat and dairy products. I think you are imagining veganism from the point of view of the western world, when you see organic products at the store twice as expensive as non-organic, or when our meat and dairy is subsidized by the government, but broccili and asparagus and strawberries aren't. You might be used to seeing expensive restaurants that offer vegan food that is 50% more expensive than your average sit-down place, or even compare it to going to McDonald's and getting a "meat" burger for $1. It's much different than that in reality. You know growing foods with pesticides and herbicides and hormones produces many times the food compared to the "pure" foods vegans eat right. No starving kid in Africa can afford to be a vegan.
Yes, using pesticides and growth hormones produces more food quantity than not using them. These chemicals have nothing to do with being vegan or not. Veganism is the idea of not consuming any animal-based products, and has nothing to do with these other procedures. It just so happens that people that are normally interested in veganism are also interested in eating more organic (without these pesticides and other chemicals) because of their health benefits as well.
Most places in Africa, South America, and almost all of Europe don't use any of these chemicals at all. In Europe it is illegal in most countries, and in poorer places like South America and Africa, it is too expensive to use them, therefore nearly all of the plant-based food they eat is organic and vegan.
How many dozens of meals do you think you can eat of rice, beans, quinoa, and vegetables in countries in Africa that would amount to a single dinner at a steakhouse in your town? There is a reason that nearly 100% of peoples' diet in African countries, India, southeast Asia, etc. are almost all plant-based -- they are much, much cheaper to produce.
I think you are using the view of what it means to be vegan in the western world and applying it to places around the globe instead of understanding their own situations. When some of the people in these countries make $1-$2 a day, do you think that they are going to save up to buy a steak for their family of 6, of get the biggest bag of dry rice and beans they can and go home and boil it for their family instead?
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On September 21 2012 13:12 CatfooD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 12:13 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 12:01 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:51 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:43 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. [quote] That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. I stunned and fed a Preying Mantis 3 stink bugs about a week ago. I found both outside and didn't actually kill any of the bugs myself. Does that make me an accomplice to murder or is insects eating other insects not imoral? While I appreciate that you try to treat me as your conscience: I don't know. Personally I love watching a Preying Mantis hunt and eat. I also have the same feeling for Lions. Seeing how nature works in an almost undisturbed way is amazing, it's checks and balances. I think I would also love to see humans hunt their food together. What's over the top for me is taking a bunch of animals, putting them into a small place, causing them immense pain from birth to slaughter and all that to produce something we don't need in the first place. If there's no alternative, fine, go ahead. But they are. We have the brain to explore them and the empathy to feel with other living beings. We can make the conscious thought chain of "I don't want to be treated like that" -> "I don't want to see others being treated like that". Not extending the same privilege to another species? Why the hell not? I don't want a stronger and more intelligent species to show up and raise me as cattle either. On September 21 2012 11:41 Olinim wrote:On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice. I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated? It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead. What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species). Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P So which is it? In your second paragraph you say it's completely a personal choice and if they're fine with it go ahead. Then in the very next paragraph you say that it should make them feel guilty. I am also sick of people in this thread equating animals to humans. I said it annoys the crap out of me and that I don't understand how to not feel guilty. I can find neither a logical nor an emotional argument to not feel guilty about it. If you can find either, please tell me about it. I actually completely agree with you. The way the meat industry generally works is both immoral and unhealthy. A lot of the reason meat consumption has been tied to increased chance of diseases and colon cancer is because of the way it is processed. The fact is if you eat good quality, free range meat it is not unhealthy in moderate portions. I eat a lot of meat and I have been trying cut down. Completely agree. I don't see a big difference between someone aiming to consume good quality meat once a week and someone being completely vegan or vegetarian (even though most of those would prolly throw rocks at me for that statement =P). That's an attitude which showcases that someone thought about the whole issue and made a conscious decision. "I eat meat because it's here and I like it and that's all now leave me alone" is an attitude I don't want to tolerate. It showcases the absolute worst that humanity has to offer. Then again, that's not about eating meat in general anymore as I said earlier. That's about ignorance and a low intellect and probably applies to most other subjects as well. The quality of the meat and dairy products you consume certainly has a huuuge impact on health, yes. Eating prime quality, organic meats and cheeses for instance is a lot healthier than eating McDonald's and hotdogs in which you consume massive quantities of preservatives, chemicals, genetically modified products, etc. However, in general, the nature of meat and dairy is not healthy for our bodies to process, despite being organic and prime quality or not. Meat and dairy products have the highest contents of fats, bad cholesterol, saturated fats, and acidic animal-based protein of any other food we consume. They are direct contributors to the #1 and #2 leading killers in the US -- heart disease and numerous cancers. They also cause many other chronic illnesses like coronary heart disease, diabetes, osteoporosis, etc If we abstain from consuming these foods, we can remove our risk of nearly ever having these major illnesses and diseases in our lives.
The notion that eating meat puts you at a higher risk of coronary heart diseases, diabetes and such stuff is highely misleading and ill informing. It is the quantity and quality that makes the poison. Also fats are not bad per se, again the quantity makes the poison.
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On September 21 2012 13:12 CatfooD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 12:13 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 12:01 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:51 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:43 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. [quote] That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. I stunned and fed a Preying Mantis 3 stink bugs about a week ago. I found both outside and didn't actually kill any of the bugs myself. Does that make me an accomplice to murder or is insects eating other insects not imoral? While I appreciate that you try to treat me as your conscience: I don't know. Personally I love watching a Preying Mantis hunt and eat. I also have the same feeling for Lions. Seeing how nature works in an almost undisturbed way is amazing, it's checks and balances. I think I would also love to see humans hunt their food together. What's over the top for me is taking a bunch of animals, putting them into a small place, causing them immense pain from birth to slaughter and all that to produce something we don't need in the first place. If there's no alternative, fine, go ahead. But they are. We have the brain to explore them and the empathy to feel with other living beings. We can make the conscious thought chain of "I don't want to be treated like that" -> "I don't want to see others being treated like that". Not extending the same privilege to another species? Why the hell not? I don't want a stronger and more intelligent species to show up and raise me as cattle either. On September 21 2012 11:41 Olinim wrote:On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice. I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated? It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead. What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species). Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P So which is it? In your second paragraph you say it's completely a personal choice and if they're fine with it go ahead. Then in the very next paragraph you say that it should make them feel guilty. I am also sick of people in this thread equating animals to humans. I said it annoys the crap out of me and that I don't understand how to not feel guilty. I can find neither a logical nor an emotional argument to not feel guilty about it. If you can find either, please tell me about it. I actually completely agree with you. The way the meat industry generally works is both immoral and unhealthy. A lot of the reason meat consumption has been tied to increased chance of diseases and colon cancer is because of the way it is processed. The fact is if you eat good quality, free range meat it is not unhealthy in moderate portions. I eat a lot of meat and I have been trying cut down. Completely agree. I don't see a big difference between someone aiming to consume good quality meat once a week and someone being completely vegan or vegetarian (even though most of those would prolly throw rocks at me for that statement =P). That's an attitude which showcases that someone thought about the whole issue and made a conscious decision. "I eat meat because it's here and I like it and that's all now leave me alone" is an attitude I don't want to tolerate. It showcases the absolute worst that humanity has to offer. Then again, that's not about eating meat in general anymore as I said earlier. That's about ignorance and a low intellect and probably applies to most other subjects as well. The quality of the meat and dairy products you consume certainly has a huuuge impact on health, yes. Eating prime quality, organic meats and cheeses for instance is a lot healthier than eating McDonald's and hotdogs in which you consume massive quantities of preservatives, chemicals, genetically modified products, etc. However, in general, the nature of meat and dairy is not healthy for our bodies to process, despite being organic and prime quality or not. Meat and dairy products have the highest contents of fats, bad cholesterol, saturated fats, and acidic animal-based protein of any other food we consume. They are direct contributors to the #1 and #2 leading killers in the US -- heart disease and numerous cancers. They also cause many other chronic illnesses like coronary heart disease, diabetes, osteoporosis, etc If we abstain from consuming these foods, we can remove our risk of nearly ever having these major illnesses and diseases in our lives.
Agree, too. That's why I'm personally choosing to eat as few meat as possible. I remember choosing a Gulash though a few years at a place where I had literally no other options over not eating for a couple of days while exercising. =P
My point is, I won't even think about busting anyones balls who knows what's going on, still loves how meat tastes and decides for him or herself that it's cool once per week. That's just drawing the line a bit further away from me. For me it's about the conscious decision about what's on our table and where it comes from. The goal on a grander scale should be to find ways to inform those who are ignorant about those facts and show them that they are.
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The problem is when people on the extreme end try to force their beliefs and ideologies to others. We can all agree on a stable middle line on this issue.
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On September 21 2012 13:22 AngryMag wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 13:12 CatfooD wrote:On September 21 2012 12:13 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 12:01 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:51 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:43 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:
[quote]
I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me.
We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. I stunned and fed a Preying Mantis 3 stink bugs about a week ago. I found both outside and didn't actually kill any of the bugs myself. Does that make me an accomplice to murder or is insects eating other insects not imoral? While I appreciate that you try to treat me as your conscience: I don't know. Personally I love watching a Preying Mantis hunt and eat. I also have the same feeling for Lions. Seeing how nature works in an almost undisturbed way is amazing, it's checks and balances. I think I would also love to see humans hunt their food together. What's over the top for me is taking a bunch of animals, putting them into a small place, causing them immense pain from birth to slaughter and all that to produce something we don't need in the first place. If there's no alternative, fine, go ahead. But they are. We have the brain to explore them and the empathy to feel with other living beings. We can make the conscious thought chain of "I don't want to be treated like that" -> "I don't want to see others being treated like that". Not extending the same privilege to another species? Why the hell not? I don't want a stronger and more intelligent species to show up and raise me as cattle either. On September 21 2012 11:41 Olinim wrote:On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. [quote] That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice. I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated? It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead. What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species). Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P So which is it? In your second paragraph you say it's completely a personal choice and if they're fine with it go ahead. Then in the very next paragraph you say that it should make them feel guilty. I am also sick of people in this thread equating animals to humans. I said it annoys the crap out of me and that I don't understand how to not feel guilty. I can find neither a logical nor an emotional argument to not feel guilty about it. If you can find either, please tell me about it. I actually completely agree with you. The way the meat industry generally works is both immoral and unhealthy. A lot of the reason meat consumption has been tied to increased chance of diseases and colon cancer is because of the way it is processed. The fact is if you eat good quality, free range meat it is not unhealthy in moderate portions. I eat a lot of meat and I have been trying cut down. Completely agree. I don't see a big difference between someone aiming to consume good quality meat once a week and someone being completely vegan or vegetarian (even though most of those would prolly throw rocks at me for that statement =P). That's an attitude which showcases that someone thought about the whole issue and made a conscious decision. "I eat meat because it's here and I like it and that's all now leave me alone" is an attitude I don't want to tolerate. It showcases the absolute worst that humanity has to offer. Then again, that's not about eating meat in general anymore as I said earlier. That's about ignorance and a low intellect and probably applies to most other subjects as well. The quality of the meat and dairy products you consume certainly has a huuuge impact on health, yes. Eating prime quality, organic meats and cheeses for instance is a lot healthier than eating McDonald's and hotdogs in which you consume massive quantities of preservatives, chemicals, genetically modified products, etc. However, in general, the nature of meat and dairy is not healthy for our bodies to process, despite being organic and prime quality or not. Meat and dairy products have the highest contents of fats, bad cholesterol, saturated fats, and acidic animal-based protein of any other food we consume. They are direct contributors to the #1 and #2 leading killers in the US -- heart disease and numerous cancers. They also cause many other chronic illnesses like coronary heart disease, diabetes, osteoporosis, etc If we abstain from consuming these foods, we can remove our risk of nearly ever having these major illnesses and diseases in our lives. The notion that eating meat puts you at a higher risk of coronary heart diseases, diabetes and such stuff is highely misleading and ill informing. It is the quantity and quality that makes the poison. Also fats are not bad per se, again the quantity makes the poison.
Your country and my country are two of the fattest, most obese countries on the entire planet, and it just so happens that we are both two of the highest meat and dairy consumers in the world also. Yes quantity and quality make a huge difference, and so does genetics, age, active lifestyle, individual metabolisms, etc. But by reducing or abstaining from the consumption of these products, you greatly reduce your risk of those chronic illnesses.
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On September 21 2012 13:28 CatfooD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 13:22 AngryMag wrote:On September 21 2012 13:12 CatfooD wrote:On September 21 2012 12:13 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 12:01 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:51 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:43 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:
[quote]
Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this:
1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being.
2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals.
3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality.
The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live.
The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. I stunned and fed a Preying Mantis 3 stink bugs about a week ago. I found both outside and didn't actually kill any of the bugs myself. Does that make me an accomplice to murder or is insects eating other insects not imoral? While I appreciate that you try to treat me as your conscience: I don't know. Personally I love watching a Preying Mantis hunt and eat. I also have the same feeling for Lions. Seeing how nature works in an almost undisturbed way is amazing, it's checks and balances. I think I would also love to see humans hunt their food together. What's over the top for me is taking a bunch of animals, putting them into a small place, causing them immense pain from birth to slaughter and all that to produce something we don't need in the first place. If there's no alternative, fine, go ahead. But they are. We have the brain to explore them and the empathy to feel with other living beings. We can make the conscious thought chain of "I don't want to be treated like that" -> "I don't want to see others being treated like that". Not extending the same privilege to another species? Why the hell not? I don't want a stronger and more intelligent species to show up and raise me as cattle either. On September 21 2012 11:41 Olinim wrote:On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:
[quote]
I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me.
We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice. I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated? It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead. What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species). Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P So which is it? In your second paragraph you say it's completely a personal choice and if they're fine with it go ahead. Then in the very next paragraph you say that it should make them feel guilty. I am also sick of people in this thread equating animals to humans. I said it annoys the crap out of me and that I don't understand how to not feel guilty. I can find neither a logical nor an emotional argument to not feel guilty about it. If you can find either, please tell me about it. I actually completely agree with you. The way the meat industry generally works is both immoral and unhealthy. A lot of the reason meat consumption has been tied to increased chance of diseases and colon cancer is because of the way it is processed. The fact is if you eat good quality, free range meat it is not unhealthy in moderate portions. I eat a lot of meat and I have been trying cut down. Completely agree. I don't see a big difference between someone aiming to consume good quality meat once a week and someone being completely vegan or vegetarian (even though most of those would prolly throw rocks at me for that statement =P). That's an attitude which showcases that someone thought about the whole issue and made a conscious decision. "I eat meat because it's here and I like it and that's all now leave me alone" is an attitude I don't want to tolerate. It showcases the absolute worst that humanity has to offer. Then again, that's not about eating meat in general anymore as I said earlier. That's about ignorance and a low intellect and probably applies to most other subjects as well. The quality of the meat and dairy products you consume certainly has a huuuge impact on health, yes. Eating prime quality, organic meats and cheeses for instance is a lot healthier than eating McDonald's and hotdogs in which you consume massive quantities of preservatives, chemicals, genetically modified products, etc. However, in general, the nature of meat and dairy is not healthy for our bodies to process, despite being organic and prime quality or not. Meat and dairy products have the highest contents of fats, bad cholesterol, saturated fats, and acidic animal-based protein of any other food we consume. They are direct contributors to the #1 and #2 leading killers in the US -- heart disease and numerous cancers. They also cause many other chronic illnesses like coronary heart disease, diabetes, osteoporosis, etc If we abstain from consuming these foods, we can remove our risk of nearly ever having these major illnesses and diseases in our lives. The notion that eating meat puts you at a higher risk of coronary heart diseases, diabetes and such stuff is highely misleading and ill informing. It is the quantity and quality that makes the poison. Also fats are not bad per se, again the quantity makes the poison. Your country and my country are two of the fattest, most obese countries on the entire planet, and it just so happens that we are both two of the highest meat and dairy consumers in the world also. Yes quantity and quality make a huge difference, and so does genetics, age, active lifestyle, individual metabolisms, etc. But by reducing or abstaining from the consumption of these products, you greatly reduce your risk of those chronic illnesses.
So consuming an excess of something might be bad for you? I'll have to bring this to Parliament before it's too late!
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Question here. So I tried being vegetarian awhile ago and was slowly phasing into veganism. Overall it lasted 2 months or so. I felt fine, not much different. Ended up losing some weight, which I didn't really want since I was thin to begin with. This probably had more to do with a bad sleeping/eating schedule, though. I have since started eating meat again.
Anyways back to the question: the one thing I noticed a few weeks in which was a concern, was that if I lifted my hands suddenly, I could feel the circulation of blood at the tips of my fingers for a moment, kind of like a head rush I guess but in the fingers. I was exercising more as well so I was kind of confused about why it was happening. Anybody know what that would have been about?
It's gone now since going back to meat again. I'm interested in trying again but I'm kind of hesitant because of that experience.
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On September 21 2012 13:12 CatfooD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 12:13 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 12:01 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:51 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:43 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. [quote] That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. I stunned and fed a Preying Mantis 3 stink bugs about a week ago. I found both outside and didn't actually kill any of the bugs myself. Does that make me an accomplice to murder or is insects eating other insects not imoral? While I appreciate that you try to treat me as your conscience: I don't know. Personally I love watching a Preying Mantis hunt and eat. I also have the same feeling for Lions. Seeing how nature works in an almost undisturbed way is amazing, it's checks and balances. I think I would also love to see humans hunt their food together. What's over the top for me is taking a bunch of animals, putting them into a small place, causing them immense pain from birth to slaughter and all that to produce something we don't need in the first place. If there's no alternative, fine, go ahead. But they are. We have the brain to explore them and the empathy to feel with other living beings. We can make the conscious thought chain of "I don't want to be treated like that" -> "I don't want to see others being treated like that". Not extending the same privilege to another species? Why the hell not? I don't want a stronger and more intelligent species to show up and raise me as cattle either. On September 21 2012 11:41 Olinim wrote:On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. This argument means nothing. Of course some people might not be able to go to completely vegan, and I don't fault them for that.
This is like comparing first degree murder to killing somebody in a car accident that was barely your fault.
What is with you guys, we aren't preaching to the third world countries that they should go vegan. Where did he say that?
That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice. I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated? It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead. What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species). Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P So which is it? In your second paragraph you say it's completely a personal choice and if they're fine with it go ahead. Then in the very next paragraph you say that it should make them feel guilty. I am also sick of people in this thread equating animals to humans. I said it annoys the crap out of me and that I don't understand how to not feel guilty. I can find neither a logical nor an emotional argument to not feel guilty about it. If you can find either, please tell me about it. I actually completely agree with you. The way the meat industry generally works is both immoral and unhealthy. A lot of the reason meat consumption has been tied to increased chance of diseases and colon cancer is because of the way it is processed. The fact is if you eat good quality, free range meat it is not unhealthy in moderate portions. I eat a lot of meat and I have been trying cut down. Completely agree. I don't see a big difference between someone aiming to consume good quality meat once a week and someone being completely vegan or vegetarian (even though most of those would prolly throw rocks at me for that statement =P). That's an attitude which showcases that someone thought about the whole issue and made a conscious decision. "I eat meat because it's here and I like it and that's all now leave me alone" is an attitude I don't want to tolerate. It showcases the absolute worst that humanity has to offer. Then again, that's not about eating meat in general anymore as I said earlier. That's about ignorance and a low intellect and probably applies to most other subjects as well. The quality of the meat and dairy products you consume certainly has a huuuge impact on health, yes. Eating prime quality, organic meats and cheeses for instance is a lot healthier than eating McDonald's and hotdogs in which you consume massive quantities of preservatives, chemicals, genetically modified products, etc. However, in general, the nature of meat and dairy is not healthy for our bodies to process, despite being organic and prime quality or not. Meat and dairy products have the highest contents of fats, bad cholesterol, saturated fats, and acidic animal-based protein of any other food we consume. They are direct contributors to the #1 and #2 leading killers in the US -- heart disease and numerous cancers. They also cause many other chronic illnesses like coronary heart disease, diabetes, osteoporosis, etc If we abstain from consuming these foods, we can remove our risk of nearly ever having these major illnesses and diseases in our lives.
I don't mind people not eating meat for ethical or religious reasons (though I don't share them) but spreading lies about nutrition is something vegans should abstain from doing.
The leading cause of both heart deseases and cancer are sendentarism, high processed foods and high-fructose corn syrup. If you believe cheetos are healthier than meat, you are not very smart.
Animal meat (cow beef) has 0 transfat, more mono unsaturated fat than saturated fat, tons of bioavailable protein, and HEALTHY cholesterol and saturated fat required to produce testosterone, and therefore be a healthy man. Not to mention a shitload of vitamins and minerals.
Also humans evolved to eat meat, and that virtually any succesful athlete in the world bases his diet around MEAT, eggs and veggies. We have the intestine lenght and gut of meat eaters, and its actually how wolves and humans developed symbiosis; cause they wanted to eat the same shit.
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On September 21 2012 13:31 Sickafant wrote:
Question here. So I tried being vegetarian awhile ago and was slowly phasing into veganism. Overall it lasted 2 months or so. I felt fine, not much different. Ended up losing some weight, which I didn't really want since I was thin to begin with. This probably had more to do with a bad sleeping/eating schedule, though. I have since started eating meat again.
Anyways back to the question: the one thing I noticed a few weeks in which was a concern, was that if I lifted my hands suddenly, I could feel the circulation of blood at the tips of my fingers for a moment, kind of like a head rush I guess but in the fingers. I was exercising more as well so I was kind of confused about why it was happening. Anybody know what that would have been about?
It's gone now since going back to meat again. I'm interested in trying again but I'm kind of hesitant because of that experience.
Ask a doctor about it.
2 months isn't a period of time where the "common" vegeterian or vegan problems arise. One of the biggest mistakes I know guys new to this stuff make is to not make sure that they still consume enough protein (even though your problem doesn't sound like that). But, yeah. It basically boils down to "ask your doc". If he says either "not eating meat is bullshit" or "eating meat is bullshit", ask a different one. =D
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It'd be nice if this thread would stop using "natural" and "unnatural" for arguments. Natural= non man-made? unnatural= man-made? I would never not buy something because it "man-made". That just means people have found a way to make something more efficiently (in some regard or another). Sometimes they are less healthy, sometimes they are more healthy. Also, would extremism be an action far from the norm? I swear, people throw words around without ever defining them.
To add, I'm a vegetarian. I do not feel like becoming a vegan is a viable option for many. A college student, for instance. It's very hard to find many vegan dishes on-campus dining. Someone who travels a lot, very hard to find vegan dishes. You basically cannot eat out. Milk/dairy is everywhere. I do not think the dairy industry is a good one, but it is nearly unavoidable.
Also, the killing of animals is also unavoidable for basic human life. We are much bigger and use things on a scale far greater than that of a petite rodent. We use animals for testing, though it can definitely be justified. Not to mention a lot of animal testing (such as mice) get treated pretty well when compared to something as grotesque as the meat industry. Driving and transportation will always result in animal deaths. Think of the squirrels.
Let's look at Dostoevsky, a man who became a pacifist vegetarian and wouldn't hurt a fly, in his late years. While you cannot argue that he is a good person in terms of morals, you may argue that his lifestyle isn't progressive and that it would be more beneficial to society and the world as a whole if he made the sacrafices necessary to live a successful and helpful (to the world) life. I like Dostoevsky, you guys should read his books.
So, being a vegan, is it worth it? I'd say no. Being a strict vegetarian, perhaps. I personally do what I can to not promote sick and disgusting industries. Everyone should make morals based on what their goals are in life. Obviously, the best goal in life is to find the meaning of life, because any other thing would mean life=meaningless. ^_~. Progressivism is the way to go!
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On September 21 2012 13:28 CatfooD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 13:22 AngryMag wrote:On September 21 2012 13:12 CatfooD wrote:On September 21 2012 12:13 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 12:01 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:51 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:43 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:
[quote]
Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this:
1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being.
2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals.
3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality.
The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live.
The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. I stunned and fed a Preying Mantis 3 stink bugs about a week ago. I found both outside and didn't actually kill any of the bugs myself. Does that make me an accomplice to murder or is insects eating other insects not imoral? While I appreciate that you try to treat me as your conscience: I don't know. Personally I love watching a Preying Mantis hunt and eat. I also have the same feeling for Lions. Seeing how nature works in an almost undisturbed way is amazing, it's checks and balances. I think I would also love to see humans hunt their food together. What's over the top for me is taking a bunch of animals, putting them into a small place, causing them immense pain from birth to slaughter and all that to produce something we don't need in the first place. If there's no alternative, fine, go ahead. But they are. We have the brain to explore them and the empathy to feel with other living beings. We can make the conscious thought chain of "I don't want to be treated like that" -> "I don't want to see others being treated like that". Not extending the same privilege to another species? Why the hell not? I don't want a stronger and more intelligent species to show up and raise me as cattle either. On September 21 2012 11:41 Olinim wrote:On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:
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I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me.
We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice. I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated? It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead. What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species). Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P So which is it? In your second paragraph you say it's completely a personal choice and if they're fine with it go ahead. Then in the very next paragraph you say that it should make them feel guilty. I am also sick of people in this thread equating animals to humans. I said it annoys the crap out of me and that I don't understand how to not feel guilty. I can find neither a logical nor an emotional argument to not feel guilty about it. If you can find either, please tell me about it. I actually completely agree with you. The way the meat industry generally works is both immoral and unhealthy. A lot of the reason meat consumption has been tied to increased chance of diseases and colon cancer is because of the way it is processed. The fact is if you eat good quality, free range meat it is not unhealthy in moderate portions. I eat a lot of meat and I have been trying cut down. Completely agree. I don't see a big difference between someone aiming to consume good quality meat once a week and someone being completely vegan or vegetarian (even though most of those would prolly throw rocks at me for that statement =P). That's an attitude which showcases that someone thought about the whole issue and made a conscious decision. "I eat meat because it's here and I like it and that's all now leave me alone" is an attitude I don't want to tolerate. It showcases the absolute worst that humanity has to offer. Then again, that's not about eating meat in general anymore as I said earlier. That's about ignorance and a low intellect and probably applies to most other subjects as well. The quality of the meat and dairy products you consume certainly has a huuuge impact on health, yes. Eating prime quality, organic meats and cheeses for instance is a lot healthier than eating McDonald's and hotdogs in which you consume massive quantities of preservatives, chemicals, genetically modified products, etc. However, in general, the nature of meat and dairy is not healthy for our bodies to process, despite being organic and prime quality or not. Meat and dairy products have the highest contents of fats, bad cholesterol, saturated fats, and acidic animal-based protein of any other food we consume. They are direct contributors to the #1 and #2 leading killers in the US -- heart disease and numerous cancers. They also cause many other chronic illnesses like coronary heart disease, diabetes, osteoporosis, etc If we abstain from consuming these foods, we can remove our risk of nearly ever having these major illnesses and diseases in our lives. The notion that eating meat puts you at a higher risk of coronary heart diseases, diabetes and such stuff is highely misleading and ill informing. It is the quantity and quality that makes the poison. Also fats are not bad per se, again the quantity makes the poison. Your country and my country are two of the fattest, most obese countries on the entire planet, and it just so happens that we are both two of the highest meat and dairy consumers in the world also. Yes quantity and quality make a huge difference, and so does genetics, age, active lifestyle, individual metabolisms, etc. But by reducing or abstaining from the consumption of these products, you greatly reduce your risk of those chronic illnesses.
Of course this is true, but again the problem is not our meat consume per se, another guy listed some good things that happen to your body if you eat dead cow. Our problem is the excess, be it our eating habits, our daily brainless consumption or our lack of everyday movement to burn some of the stuff we put into us without questioning what we just ate.
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On September 21 2012 13:30 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 13:28 CatfooD wrote:On September 21 2012 13:22 AngryMag wrote:On September 21 2012 13:12 CatfooD wrote:On September 21 2012 12:13 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 12:01 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:51 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:43 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:
[quote]
this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard
i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in
you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think
if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain
if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow
its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. I stunned and fed a Preying Mantis 3 stink bugs about a week ago. I found both outside and didn't actually kill any of the bugs myself. Does that make me an accomplice to murder or is insects eating other insects not imoral? While I appreciate that you try to treat me as your conscience: I don't know. Personally I love watching a Preying Mantis hunt and eat. I also have the same feeling for Lions. Seeing how nature works in an almost undisturbed way is amazing, it's checks and balances. I think I would also love to see humans hunt their food together. What's over the top for me is taking a bunch of animals, putting them into a small place, causing them immense pain from birth to slaughter and all that to produce something we don't need in the first place. If there's no alternative, fine, go ahead. But they are. We have the brain to explore them and the empathy to feel with other living beings. We can make the conscious thought chain of "I don't want to be treated like that" -> "I don't want to see others being treated like that". Not extending the same privilege to another species? Why the hell not? I don't want a stronger and more intelligent species to show up and raise me as cattle either. On September 21 2012 11:41 Olinim wrote:On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:
[quote]
What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice.
I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated? It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead. What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species). Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P So which is it? In your second paragraph you say it's completely a personal choice and if they're fine with it go ahead. Then in the very next paragraph you say that it should make them feel guilty. I am also sick of people in this thread equating animals to humans. I said it annoys the crap out of me and that I don't understand how to not feel guilty. I can find neither a logical nor an emotional argument to not feel guilty about it. If you can find either, please tell me about it. I actually completely agree with you. The way the meat industry generally works is both immoral and unhealthy. A lot of the reason meat consumption has been tied to increased chance of diseases and colon cancer is because of the way it is processed. The fact is if you eat good quality, free range meat it is not unhealthy in moderate portions. I eat a lot of meat and I have been trying cut down. Completely agree. I don't see a big difference between someone aiming to consume good quality meat once a week and someone being completely vegan or vegetarian (even though most of those would prolly throw rocks at me for that statement =P). That's an attitude which showcases that someone thought about the whole issue and made a conscious decision. "I eat meat because it's here and I like it and that's all now leave me alone" is an attitude I don't want to tolerate. It showcases the absolute worst that humanity has to offer. Then again, that's not about eating meat in general anymore as I said earlier. That's about ignorance and a low intellect and probably applies to most other subjects as well. The quality of the meat and dairy products you consume certainly has a huuuge impact on health, yes. Eating prime quality, organic meats and cheeses for instance is a lot healthier than eating McDonald's and hotdogs in which you consume massive quantities of preservatives, chemicals, genetically modified products, etc. However, in general, the nature of meat and dairy is not healthy for our bodies to process, despite being organic and prime quality or not. Meat and dairy products have the highest contents of fats, bad cholesterol, saturated fats, and acidic animal-based protein of any other food we consume. They are direct contributors to the #1 and #2 leading killers in the US -- heart disease and numerous cancers. They also cause many other chronic illnesses like coronary heart disease, diabetes, osteoporosis, etc If we abstain from consuming these foods, we can remove our risk of nearly ever having these major illnesses and diseases in our lives. The notion that eating meat puts you at a higher risk of coronary heart diseases, diabetes and such stuff is highely misleading and ill informing. It is the quantity and quality that makes the poison. Also fats are not bad per se, again the quantity makes the poison. Your country and my country are two of the fattest, most obese countries on the entire planet, and it just so happens that we are both two of the highest meat and dairy consumers in the world also. Yes quantity and quality make a huge difference, and so does genetics, age, active lifestyle, individual metabolisms, etc. But by reducing or abstaining from the consumption of these products, you greatly reduce your risk of those chronic illnesses. So consuming an excess of something might be bad for you? I'll have to bring this to Parliament before it's too late!
??
Most people in our societies don't consider the implications of our eating habits because our diets have generally been established for our whole lives and we don't question them because they have always been that way. This "excess" of meat eating you just mentioned is considered standard and normal by our societies, and as I was mentioning are the biggest forms of fuel for the #1 and #2 cause of death in my country. I was merely trying to make people more aware of the fact that their eating habits actually contribute more to the welfare of their whole life than they might think.
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On September 21 2012 13:31 GoTuNk! wrote:
I don't mind people not eating meat for ethical or religious reasons (though I don't share them) but spreading lies about nutrition is something vegans should abstain from doing.
The leading cause of both heart deseases and cancer are sendentarism, high processed foods and high-fructose corn syrup. If you believe cheetos are healthier than meat, you are not very smart.
Animal meat (cow beef) has 0 transfat, more mono unsaturated fat than saturated fat, tons of bioavailable protein, and HEALTHY cholesterol and saturated fat required to produce testosterone, and therefore be a healthy man. Not to mention a shitload of vitamins and minerals.
Also humans evolved to eat meat, and that virtually any succesful athlete in the world bases his diet around MEAT, eggs and veggies. We have the intestine lenght and gut of meat eaters, and its actually how wolves and humans developed symbiosis; cause they wanted to eat the same shit.
I agree with you that junk foods are even less healthy than meat. I would disagree that you absolutely NEED meat to be a healthy man, as myself and many others are living proof otherwise. I do have some objections to your last assertion, however:
We do not actually have (proportionally) the same intestine length and gut of meat eaters. Carnivores generally have intestinal tracts that are roughly 3-6 times their body length, while herbivores have longer ones, up to 10-12 times body length. Ours is quite long, and much closer to the herbivore ratio. In addition, the level of our stomach acid isn't even close to that of most carnivores. Our intestines are not smooth, like those of carnivores - rather, ours are windy, so plant foods pass through slowly in order for the body to absorb the highest amount of nutrition.
If you look at our lack of claws and ideally shaped teeth, that is another point. We don't have claws or sharp front teeth needed to kill and subdue prey, and our teeth are primarily flat molars good for chewing.
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On September 21 2012 13:31 Sickafant wrote:
Question here. So I tried being vegetarian awhile ago and was slowly phasing into veganism. Overall it lasted 2 months or so. I felt fine, not much different. Ended up losing some weight, which I didn't really want since I was thin to begin with. This probably had more to do with a bad sleeping/eating schedule, though. I have since started eating meat again.
Anyways back to the question: the one thing I noticed a few weeks in which was a concern, was that if I lifted my hands suddenly, I could feel the circulation of blood at the tips of my fingers for a moment, kind of like a head rush I guess but in the fingers. I was exercising more as well so I was kind of confused about why it was happening. Anybody know what that would have been about?
It's gone now since going back to meat again. I'm interested in trying again but I'm kind of hesitant because of that experience.
It's difficult to tell or diagnose what that could have been caused from without a lot more information of course. But one thing I would certainly mention is that you could have started to become deficient in one or more nutrients unless you were careful and aware of what you were eating. The most common deficiencies on a vegan diet can be zinc, vitamin d, iron, vitamin b12 and... I am sure I am forgetting one...
These are not problems for vegans one you take the time to get used to the lifestyle. It is just a different approach to diet than we are normally used to, so takes some time and thought to understand what to be concerned with and what not to be concerned with. Most of us have spent our entire lives living the lifestyle of a particular diet so it is 2nd nature to us, and then when we suddenly change it so drastically, a few problems arise that need attention until you get used to the new lifestyle.
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On September 21 2012 12:48 Dali. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 12:39 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2012 12:34 Dali. wrote:On September 21 2012 12:32 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2012 12:23 Dali. wrote:On September 21 2012 12:13 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2012 12:09 Dali. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:46 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2012 11:42 Dali. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:36 farvacola wrote:
[quote]
Unless I want to eat it. That's more than enough reason. Imagine I am a cannibal and our paths cross in a massive deserted jungle. I chat to you for a while and find out you're on an entripid advanture and haven't seen a soul in a month. No one is with you, no one knows where you are. I am stronger than you and have the neccesary tools to kill and eat you. I know I can get away with it, since no one will know where to begin looking and just assume you've succumbed to nature. Should I cause you, another living being pain, simply for the desire to eat your flesh and muscle, even though I'm surrounded by non-feeling alternatives. Hmmm, what a moral dihlemma. I think for a second, then realise "I want to eat it. That's more than enough reason", and raise my axe. First off, your entire scenario requires that humans and animals share some overarching degree of equivalency; I find this totally nonsensical. Furthermore, just to play your game, I take excellent care of myself and am well practiced in outdoor survival, in addition to being above average in size and strength. Come at me bro. Ok lets add one tweak. I happen to consider you of a lesser race than I, and do not afford you the same ethical relevance. As such it is nonsensical for me to afford you any mercy from my whims. I now eat you. I'm sure we can all think of a time where this viewpoint was common (and perhaps still is). It is my belief that a time will come where our view of animals will change just as it has with certain groups of humans. Again, you are simply expounding on the meaningless edge that gives way to the massive canyon that is the jump from people to animals. No, the difference between white and black people is not akin to the difference between humans and animals, not even close, and it in fact is incredibly insulting to those with minority racial status to hypothesize as such. I didn't say minority and I didn't suggest it is the case. I simply presented my character with a reason to avoid your complaints about equivalency. I understand that there is a difference between humans and animals. The massive contrast in ethical obligation to human vs non-humans seems to be predicated upon the idea that either a) humans are sacred, or b) humans are smarter. I deny case (a) by simply acknowledging that humans are animals themselves and have comparable pain reception as other mammals. I deny case (b) by appealing to the ethical obligaiton we give a severly mentally disabled child, even though that child is not smarter than, lets say a pig (which we have no trouble culling and eating).* Surely if intelligence was the core factor, I'd eat the child and not the pig. *I apologize if this is offensive, it is only for the sake of argument. Retarded children and pigs are not even close to similar enough to warrent even the very beginnings of comparison. I'll take that as your inability to provide a sufficient counter argument. Any other takers? Instead, you should take that as a deferred anger at the incredulity you insist upon as a salient comparison. My brother has downs syndrome, and as a result, I've come into contact with a great many people who struggle with developmental disability, either they themselves or with that of a relative or loved one. That, for the purposes of an online debate, you are so eager to appropriate the terribly unfortunate scenarios of others and use them as a shoddy means of defending your supposed vegan superiority is quite telling of how absolutely bankrupt your position truly is. From Jews and Jim Crow Laws to retards and the disabled, both you and r.Evo are clearly desperate for a means of comparison. I never said I was a vegan, nor superior, nor do I wish to denegrate mentally disablled people. I am simply searching for the root cause of why many people have little to no ethical obligation to non-human animals. If you could kindly post a reasonable defence, that doesn't appeal to either reasons (a) and (b) which I posted above. Or if they do then explain why they are sufficient. I assume you would more likely suggest that (b) is the case. Accepting that intelligence is the sole factor in determining ethical obligation, do I have more obligation toward an animal than a human, assuming it were possible to demonstrate that a regularly farmed and eaten animal was more intelligent than the human in question. Cheers. Same for you Lombard.
You don't get to pass on the burden of proof to the person that is saying that there is an absence of something. You have to justify the idea of a moral standard for animals that is equivalent to the moral standard we have for humans before others are required to justify not holding this position. You don't just get to say, "There's nothing there, now prove why it isn't there." That's a ridiculous approach to an argument.
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