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On September 21 2012 14:39 Zariel wrote:
I still don't understand why would you choose to be vegan if you have to end up taking supplements. If your diet does not give you the satisfactory nutrition, then your diet is clearly not working. I just end up being dumbfounded when I encounter a vegan who takes dietary supplements. (Really though, inside my head I just want to slap them silly to have such logic)
Pretty much the only thing you MIGHT need is Vitamin B-12. A lot of vegan food (e.g. soy milk) has artificial B-12 in it already. Besides that, we're talking about 5-6 years of a STRICT vegan diet while purposely avoiding with B-12 fortified soy milk and similar stuff before the levels get to a unhealthy level.
Everything else can be obtained just fine.
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On September 21 2012 14:46 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 14:44 CatfooD wrote:On September 21 2012 14:36 Gloomzy wrote:On September 21 2012 14:32 CatfooD wrote:On September 21 2012 14:18 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2012 14:15 CatfooD wrote:On September 21 2012 13:31 GoTuNk! wrote:On September 21 2012 13:12 CatfooD wrote:On September 21 2012 12:13 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 12:01 SupLilSon wrote:
[quote]
I actually completely agree with you. The way the meat industry generally works is both immoral and unhealthy. A lot of the reason meat consumption has been tied to increased chance of diseases and colon cancer is because of the way it is processed. The fact is if you eat good quality, free range meat it is not unhealthy in moderate portions. I eat a lot of meat and I have been trying cut down. Completely agree. I don't see a big difference between someone aiming to consume good quality meat once a week and someone being completely vegan or vegetarian (even though most of those would prolly throw rocks at me for that statement =P). That's an attitude which showcases that someone thought about the whole issue and made a conscious decision. "I eat meat because it's here and I like it and that's all now leave me alone" is an attitude I don't want to tolerate. It showcases the absolute worst that humanity has to offer. Then again, that's not about eating meat in general anymore as I said earlier. That's about ignorance and a low intellect and probably applies to most other subjects as well. The quality of the meat and dairy products you consume certainly has a huuuge impact on health, yes. Eating prime quality, organic meats and cheeses for instance is a lot healthier than eating McDonald's and hotdogs in which you consume massive quantities of preservatives, chemicals, genetically modified products, etc. However, in general, the nature of meat and dairy is not healthy for our bodies to process, despite being organic and prime quality or not. Meat and dairy products have the highest contents of fats, bad cholesterol, saturated fats, and acidic animal-based protein of any other food we consume. They are direct contributors to the #1 and #2 leading killers in the US -- heart disease and numerous cancers. They also cause many other chronic illnesses like coronary heart disease, diabetes, osteoporosis, etc If we abstain from consuming these foods, we can remove our risk of nearly ever having these major illnesses and diseases in our lives. I don't mind people not eating meat for ethical or religious reasons (though I don't share them) but spreading lies about nutrition is something vegans should abstain from doing. The leading cause of both heart deseases and cancer are sendentarism, high processed foods and high-fructose corn syrup. If you believe cheetos are healthier than meat, you are not very smart. Animal meat (cow beef) has 0 transfat, more mono unsaturated fat than saturated fat, tons of bioavailable protein, and HEALTHY cholesterol and saturated fat required to produce testosterone, and therefore be a healthy man. Not to mention a shitload of vitamins and minerals. Also humans evolved to eat meat, and that virtually any succesful athlete in the world bases his diet around MEAT, eggs and veggies. We have the intestine lenght and gut of meat eaters, and its actually how wolves and humans developed symbiosis; cause they wanted to eat the same shit. I never said that eating cheetos or drinking soda is healthier or unhealthier than meat. People don't realize that the word vegan doesn't mean healthy. Like I mentioned in a previous post, vegan just means avoiding the consumption of any animal product. Eating cheetos, pepsi, oreos and all of that is 100% vegan, but provide much, much less nutrition than eating meat and dairy, just like you said. Eating vegan candy garbage and eating fruits/vegetables/grains are two totally different stories, but they both happen to technically be vegan. Transfat isn't the only type of fat that is unhealthy. Trans fat happens to be the absolute worst kind of fat that we could possibly consume, but because a cow doesn't have any of it doesn't mean that a cow also doesn't have one of the highest saturated fat and cholesterol contents of any food. Any cholesterol that you consume in the diet is unhealthy. Our bodies makes cholesterol, plenty for our bodies' needs, and any external source of cholesterol needs to be absorbed and eliminated through the liver that doesn't get clogged in our arteries already. Animal protein has one good quality about it in my opinion -- it contains more of all of the essential amino acids than plant products have. However, animal protein is extremely acidic and causes our body to go into a process called leukocytosis that treats the protein like an infection or bacteria. The blood gets flooded with white blood cells and attacks it to neutralize the acidity. When you digest highly acidic animal protein, your body releases lots of toxic wastes like urea and amonia that are detrimental to your body as these wastes go through your kidneys. Animal protein has a huge content of sulfur, which washes through the bones and disolves calcium out of your bones as it is being digested. Animal protein is also the most concentrated type of protein on the planet, so you get a huge surge of this every time you eat meat or dairy. Because the high acidity of this protein dissolves calcium out of your bones, you see the highest cases of osteoporosis (osteo - bone, porosis - porous (porous bones)) in countries that have the highest animal protein consumption rates. Osteoporosis barely even exists in countries like Thailand and China for instance, but they are huge problems for us in America. Animal protein also has no fiber content in it, so this highly concentrated, acidic protein absorbs very rapidly into your body, instead of happening slowly over several hours paired with fiber as it would with nuts and grains for instance -- plant protein is much gentler in the body because of this. I'll have to get to your post about us evolving to eat meat and high-performance athletes eating huge quantities of meat later. Source a reputable medical authority on this please. Ian Brighthope Prof., M.D., M.B.B.S., D.Ag.Sci Melbourne, Australia President of the Australasian College of Nutritional & Environmental Medicine. Professor Brighthope is a medical doctor & surgeon with over 20 years of practical clinical experience. He has specialized in Nutritional and Environmental Medicine, with a particular interest in heart disease, psychiatric disorders, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, arthritis, asthma, food and chemical sensitivities, diabetes and cancer. Andrew W Saul Ph.D, Therapeutic Nutrition Specialist and Author Rochester, New York Andrew Saul has a Ph.D. in Human Ethology and has been a consulting specialist in natural healing for over 30 years. As an author and veteran lecturer for three colleges his command of clinical nutrition is second to none. He is also the Assistant Editor of the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine. Michael A. Klaper, M.D., is an American physician, author, and vegan. Dr. Klaper graduated from the University of Illinois College of Medicine in 1972 and served his medical internship at Vancouver General Hospital with the University of British Columbia. Practiced acute care medicine, and eventually became certified in urgent care medicine. He served as director of a vegan health spa in Pompano Beach, Florida from the early 1990s, where he observed the healing powers of plant-based nutrition. Charlotte Gerson Founder of the Gerson Institute San Diego, California Charlotte Gerson is the daughter of Dr Max Gerson and the founder of the Gerson Institute. At 85 years of age she is vibrantly healthy and a strong advocate of nutritional healing. In her work at the Gerson Institute she is dedicated to healing and preventing chronic diseases using natural treatments that activate the bodies own healing response. David Wolfe World Authority on Raw Foods & Superfoods San Diego, California David Wolfe is a leading authority on Raw Food and Superfoods. Coming from a family of two medical doctors David has an interesting perspective on health and healing that confirms his belief in the immutable universal law 'you are what you eat'. David coaches Hollywood Producers and Celebrities as well as some of the worlds leading business people and entrepreneurs. Victor Zeines Holistic Dentist & Nutritionist Manhattan, New York Dr Zeines is a clinically trained Dentist who has been practicing Holistic Dentistry for over 25 years. He has a masters degree in nutrition and has studied acupressure, kinesiology and chiropractic care. Dr Zeines believes that poor nutrition is one of the major causes of tooth decay and gum disease which is a precursor to chronic disease and can be reversed with improved nutrition and supplementation. Phillip Day Investigative Journalist Kent, UK Phillip Day is an author, investigative journalist and international speaker. His work revolves around uncovering the most effective treatments available today and distributing that information to as many people as possible. Phillip believes in taking responsibility for ones own health and that "prevention is worth a ton of cure at a thousandth of the cost." Dr Dan Rogers Curing the "incurable" San Diego, California Dr Dan Rogers is a trained Medical Doctor and Naturopath. He has been treating patients using integrative medicine since the late 1970's. What makes him so unique is his success in treating patients that have been deemed "incurable" by medical practitioners or hospitals. Dr Rogers believes in the use of the Gerson Plus therapy which is a nutrition based form of detoxification and healing from within. Jerome Burne Medical Health Journalist London, UK Jerome Burne is one of Britain's leading medical health journalists and a valuable contributor to Medicine Today. In his writings, Jerome brings the latest breakthroughs in medical health to a wider audience. He likes to emphasize that science-based does not always mean drug-based and that natural approaches are achieving astounding success rates. Patrick Holford Founder of the Institute for Optimum Nutrition London, UK Patrick Holford is one of Britain's leading nutrition experts. Patrick is a pioneer in new approaches to health and nutrition, specialising in the field of mental health. In 1984 Patrick founded the Institute for Optimum Nutrition (ION) in London, with his mentor, twice Nobel Prize winner Dr Linus Pauling. Patrick believes that vibrant health and resistance to disease can be achieved through optimum nutrition. Dr Gert Schuitemaker Founder of the Ortho Europe Institute Gendringen, Netherlands Dr Schuitemaker is a traditionally trained Medical Doctor and Pharmacologist. He is the founder of the Ortho Institute of Europe and President of the International Society for Orthomolecular Medicine in Toronto, Canada. Dr Schuitemaker believes we must first look at how we can help the patient through nutrition and supplementation before any type of medical treatment begins. Arnaud Apoteker Biologist and organic food specialist Paris, France Arnaud is a biologist and is the head of the anti-GMO (Genetically Modified Organisms) Greenpeace campaign in France. His passion for food which is clean, healthy and good for you, occupies his life. His profession makes Arnaud uniquely qualified to give us his perspective on the many benefits of organics and the hidden dangers of genetically modified foods. You were asked for authority, so you sent us the bios of 20 or so random people? How on earth can you think this backs up your argument? Also, ITT: anecdotal evidence. No I don't think it does much, it's just all the information I have to back up some of what I am saying since I was asked. I could have provided nothing and just kept on talking about things that I have learned, picked up from studying, personal experiences and talking to professionals in the industries. Just providing what I can get a hold of at the moment in case anyone is interested in any of that. It would take me a lot more time than I have to dig up more information of works they have published, documentaries they have been in, speeches they have given, etc. Looks like we just got Vegan'd. Nowhere in a single piece of accepted medical dietary research does it suggest half the things you describe as inherent to the digestion of animal products.
Why is that your ultimate conclusion to my comment about what I can personally provide? It didn't sound like I said anything like "nowhere in a single piece of accepted medical dietary research..." I simply said I don't have any of the information that you want provided at hand. People that follow a vegan diet aren't all walking, talking encyclopedias and databases for information that you personally want provided to you on the spot, I'm sorry.
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On September 21 2012 14:47 Mstring wrote:
The floor is yours.
What, do people actually think that a vegan diet is the optimal diet for humans?
@ spacemonkeyy (or w/e it is)
Oh, well thankyou for the clarification. Yes, in general I would agree, eating meat or not is actually rather minor in the grand scale of things. But, there is a fairly strong argument for 'not eating meat' when you look at the current Meatian industry.
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On September 21 2012 14:53 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 14:39 Zariel wrote:
I still don't understand why would you choose to be vegan if you have to end up taking supplements. If your diet does not give you the satisfactory nutrition, then your diet is clearly not working. I just end up being dumbfounded when I encounter a vegan who takes dietary supplements. (Really though, inside my head I just want to slap them silly to have such logic) Pretty much the only thing you MIGHT need is Vitamin B-12. A lot of vegan food (e.g. soy milk) has artificial B-12 in it already. Besides that, we're talking about 5-6 years of a STRICT vegan diet while purposely avoiding with B-12 fortified soy milk and similar stuff before the levels get to a unhealthy level. Everything else can be obtained just fine.
You don't see any problem that we have to fortify vegeproducts with processing just so we can rely on it? This on its own should raise some flags. Iron is another big one- Heme iron is a lot more bio-available than non-heme iron. Then all the amino-acids that we get from animals that otherwise we have to manufacture ourselves (not neccessarily a huge problem). As I mentioned before K1 and K2 are different from animal to plant soruces and so is B carotene and retinol.
For the record soy is a very suspect food
-pyhtoestrogens
-goitrogenic
etc.
This is the problem with vegetarianism- subsittuting whole foods cows milk with highly processed foods soy milk. For the record cows milk is not necessarily that great for everyone depending on your heritage.
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On September 21 2012 14:57 Blargh wrote:What, do people actually think that a vegan diet is the optimal diet for humans?
The optimal diet for every type of lifestyle is difficult to argue. He was just asking you to provide your opinion on the subject. Why don't you tell us what you know about a vegan diet, since it sounds like you dismiss the idea altogether. Of course there are pros and cons to both sides, but you seem to act like it is completely absurd and not possible on a long-term basis or something. Tell us what you think.
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On September 21 2012 14:53 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 14:39 Zariel wrote:
I still don't understand why would you choose to be vegan if you have to end up taking supplements. If your diet does not give you the satisfactory nutrition, then your diet is clearly not working. I just end up being dumbfounded when I encounter a vegan who takes dietary supplements. (Really though, inside my head I just want to slap them silly to have such logic) Pretty much the only thing you MIGHT need is Vitamin B-12. A lot of vegan food (e.g. soy milk) has artificial B-12 in it already. Besides that, we're talking about 5-6 years of a STRICT vegan diet while purposely avoiding with B-12 fortified soy milk and similar stuff before the levels get to a unhealthy level. Everything else can be obtained just fine.
Hi there,
the body needs Vitamin B-12 in order to sustain the nervous system and helps in forming blood, now if you do not want a nervous system or blood, that is you choice. Vegan Website about B12
I never had a problem with vegans but the amount of misinformation i hear form some of them is actually sickening 
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There are no health benefits to going vegan. Monitoring your diet so that your body gets everything it needs and in the proper proportions does have health benefits. That can be done with a vegan diet, or a diet with animal products. You can also have a truly awful diet with either. Chicken eggs are immensely healthy for you. They have all the proteins your body needs, and in the proper proportions. They have 25% of the required daily intake of choline. Very few people meet this required intake, and its difficult to get without eggs in your diet.
Edit: A vegan could get the necessary amount of choline by consuming, per day:
7 cups of cauliflower or
5 cups of navy beans or
2 kg of tofu or
10 cups of almonds or
50 table spoons of peanut butter.
Have fun.
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On September 21 2012 14:58 spacemonkeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 14:53 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 14:39 Zariel wrote:
I still don't understand why would you choose to be vegan if you have to end up taking supplements. If your diet does not give you the satisfactory nutrition, then your diet is clearly not working. I just end up being dumbfounded when I encounter a vegan who takes dietary supplements. (Really though, inside my head I just want to slap them silly to have such logic) Pretty much the only thing you MIGHT need is Vitamin B-12. A lot of vegan food (e.g. soy milk) has artificial B-12 in it already. Besides that, we're talking about 5-6 years of a STRICT vegan diet while purposely avoiding with B-12 fortified soy milk and similar stuff before the levels get to a unhealthy level. Everything else can be obtained just fine. You don't see any problem that we have to fortify vegeproducts with processing just so we can rely on it? This on its own should raise some flags. Iron is another big one- Heme iron is a lot more bio-available than non-heme iron. Then all the amino-acids that we get from animals that otherwise we have to manufacture ourselves (not neccessarily a huge problem). As I mentioned before K1 and K2 are different from animal to plant soruces and so is B carotene and retinol. For the record soy is a very suspect food -pyhtoestrogens -goitrogenic etc. This is the problem with vegetarianism- subsittuting whole foods cows milk with highly processed foods soy milk. For the record cows milk is not necessarily that great for everyone depending on your heritage.
There is no difference between soy milk being fortified with Vit. B-12 than the shelves next to the pharmacy at every grocery store in the country being fully stocked with calcium pills, multivitamins, fish oils and omegas, minerals, antioxidants and other supplements. What does that say about the SAD diet based on your rationale? Both vegan and non-vegan need to be careful and aware of what they eat and in what quantities.
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On September 21 2012 15:00 zocktol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 14:53 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 14:39 Zariel wrote:
I still don't understand why would you choose to be vegan if you have to end up taking supplements. If your diet does not give you the satisfactory nutrition, then your diet is clearly not working. I just end up being dumbfounded when I encounter a vegan who takes dietary supplements. (Really though, inside my head I just want to slap them silly to have such logic) Pretty much the only thing you MIGHT need is Vitamin B-12. A lot of vegan food (e.g. soy milk) has artificial B-12 in it already. Besides that, we're talking about 5-6 years of a STRICT vegan diet while purposely avoiding with B-12 fortified soy milk and similar stuff before the levels get to a unhealthy level. Everything else can be obtained just fine. Hi there, the body needs Vitamin B-12 in order to sustain the nervous system and helps in forming blood, now if you do not want a nervous system or blood, that is you choice. Vegan Website about B12I never had a problem with vegans but the amount of misinformation i hear form some of them is actually sickening
Erhm. Thats.... what I just said...?
The only thing you MIGHT need (as a supplement to a vegan diet) is Vitamin B-12.
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On September 21 2012 14:58 spacemonkeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 14:53 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 14:39 Zariel wrote:
I still don't understand why would you choose to be vegan if you have to end up taking supplements. If your diet does not give you the satisfactory nutrition, then your diet is clearly not working. I just end up being dumbfounded when I encounter a vegan who takes dietary supplements. (Really though, inside my head I just want to slap them silly to have such logic) Pretty much the only thing you MIGHT need is Vitamin B-12. A lot of vegan food (e.g. soy milk) has artificial B-12 in it already. Besides that, we're talking about 5-6 years of a STRICT vegan diet while purposely avoiding with B-12 fortified soy milk and similar stuff before the levels get to a unhealthy level. Everything else can be obtained just fine. You don't see any problem that we have to fortify vegeproducts with processing just so we can rely on it? This on its own should raise some flags. Iron is another big one- Heme iron is a lot more bio-available than non-heme iron. Then all the amino-acids that we get from animals that otherwise we have to manufacture ourselves (not neccessarily a huge problem). As I mentioned before K1 and K2 are different from animal to plant soruces and so is B carotene and retinol. For the record soy is a very suspect food -pyhtoestrogens -goitrogenic etc. This is the problem with vegetarianism- subsittuting whole foods cows milk with highly processed foods soy milk. For the record cows milk is not necessarily that great for everyone depending on your heritage.
I'm wondering if some of your perspectives are shaped too heavily by your personal experience. For example, it might be easy for you to process cow milk and other dairy products. For many Asians that are lactose intolerant (I am, to a certain extent as well), dairy products aren't so "obviously good". In addition, we eat a lot of soy products, and there really isn't any issue with it. There certainly can be problems with soy production - for example, in Taiwan we are arguing about the pros and cons of GMO soybeans and the possibility of preserving our own seeds to better suit the climate and changing environment. But otherwise, there aren't any problems with soy per se that you wouldn't see with any other foods.
I am on a fully vegetarian diet, and I don't eat any supplementary pills. I can get calcium (because I try to avoid dairy) from Linseed, protein from soy and other plants, and iron from a variety of beans. Sure, the type of iron and other nutrients I get from my foods may differ from that from animal products, but I haven't noticed any distinction that necessitates my body requiring meat.
I'm able to work out several times a week without feeling low energy, and I'm fairly athletic. I don't want to argue that this is the only way to live, but I do want to say emphatically that your experience is your experience, and that you should try to avoid marking off possibilities if you haven't personally tried them out. Just a thought, cheers.
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On September 21 2012 14:57 Blargh wrote:What, do people actually think that a vegan diet is the optimal diet for humans?
I think it's the optimal diet for me and many others find that it's the optimal diet for them. For all other humans not eating this way, it's not a simple matter of switching what goes in; a lot of beliefs need to be addressed and rewired. I think some people have too much pride to even give it an honest try. I've found it to be a journey, not a decision.
"No health benefits" simply doesn't match up with my experience and the experience of many others. All I can say to this is: give it an honest 30 day trial and then you'll really know the truth once and for all.
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On September 21 2012 15:08 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 15:00 zocktol wrote:On September 21 2012 14:53 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 14:39 Zariel wrote:
I still don't understand why would you choose to be vegan if you have to end up taking supplements. If your diet does not give you the satisfactory nutrition, then your diet is clearly not working. I just end up being dumbfounded when I encounter a vegan who takes dietary supplements. (Really though, inside my head I just want to slap them silly to have such logic) Pretty much the only thing you MIGHT need is Vitamin B-12. A lot of vegan food (e.g. soy milk) has artificial B-12 in it already. Besides that, we're talking about 5-6 years of a STRICT vegan diet while purposely avoiding with B-12 fortified soy milk and similar stuff before the levels get to a unhealthy level. Everything else can be obtained just fine. Hi there, the body needs Vitamin B-12 in order to sustain the nervous system and helps in forming blood, now if you do not want a nervous system or blood, that is you choice. Vegan Website about B12I never had a problem with vegans but the amount of misinformation i hear form some of them is actually sickening Erhm. Thats.... what I just said...? The only thing you MIGHT need (as a supplement to a vegan diet) is Vitamin B-12.
No you WILL need Vitamin B-12 supplements if you decide to go vegan.
The way you are writing it with a emphasis on might sounds like you are saying, "You might need B-12 Supplements, you might not."
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On September 21 2012 15:00 CatfooD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 14:57 Blargh wrote:On September 21 2012 14:47 Mstring wrote:
The floor is yours. What, do people actually think that a vegan diet is the optimal diet for humans? The optimal diet for every type of lifestyle is difficult to argue. He was just asking you to provide your opinion on the subject. Why don't you tell us what you know about a vegan diet, since it sounds like you dismiss the idea altogether. Of course there are pros and cons to both sides, but you seem to act like it is completely absurd and not possible on a long-term basis or something. Tell us what you think.
You must not have read all of the previous posts. That's alright.
I'm a vegetarian, actually.
But yes... if we look at the evolution of man, we see that humans have been eating a omnivorous diet since forever. Now, usually over long periods of time, animals will adapt and adjust to certain things. Diet is not an exception. The diet that works best* for the animals stick to the animal. As animals change their lifestyles over the span of many years, their diet may change too. If their diet changes over the span of many years, their lifestyles will change. They are related. Meat provides a nice way of getting humans protein, iron, etc. that most the vegan diet will have trouble with. You will need to eat tofu, soy, nuts, bread, etc. in order to obtain similar nutrients.
*not technically the best, but generally pretty close to optimal.
Yes, both have ups and downs, but a diet that excludes such a large amount of food will never be the optimal diet. Though I absolutely believe you can live quite sufficiently off of a vegan diet and a vegetarian diet. Being "healthy" relative to the majority is actually pretty easy because so many people are unhealthy.
That's about all I know. Sorry for including evolutionary concepts, that usually brings in more bickering over stupid-ass shit.
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I eat vegetarian dishes sometimes and I wouldnt mind to cut down meat comsumption a bit altough giving it up entirely is out of the question sorry =)
I'm curious why the vegetarian alternatives usually are more expensive then the meat version, shouldnt it be the other way around?
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On September 21 2012 15:05 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
There are no health benefits to going vegan. Monitoring your diet so that your body gets everything it needs and in the proper proportions does have health benefits. That can be done with a vegan diet, or a diet with animal products. You can also have a truly awful diet with either. Chicken eggs are immensely healthy for you. They have all the proteins your body needs, and in the proper proportions. They have 25% of the required daily intake of choline. Very few people meet this required intake, and its difficult to get without eggs in your diet.
A lot of people don't recognize that you can have a truly awful diet with either meat-eating or veganism, just like you said. It depends on a lot of factors of course and is normally more complex than people want to think.
Chicken, eggs, and every meat and dairy product have all of the amino acids in protein. The drawback to the protein in animal products has a lot to do with an earlier post I made about it making your blood very acidic and leeching calcium out of your bones. Eggs also have one of the highest concentrations of cholesterol of any food on the planet. The energy in that yolk is meant to give enough energy to fuel that chick for weeks.
Also you have to consider that these foods have to be cooked before you can consume them (normally), which destroys huge portions of the protein and vitamins and minerals in the food before you consume it. Vitamins and protein get destroyed really easily, but minerals are usually a lot more resilient thankfully. When you eat raw fruits and vegetables, for instance, you don't run into this problem at all and are able to make use of 100% of all the nutrients the food provides.
Aside from those ideas, you still want to think about how the food is grown and processed before it gets to your table. Considering chicken like you mentioned:
"Up to one-quarter of slaughtered chickens on the inspection line are covered with feces, bile, and feed. Dead and diseased animals are processed and end up in the supermarket. Chickens are soaked in baths of chlorine to remove slime and odor. Mixtures of excrement, blood, oil, grease, rust, paint, insecticides, and rodent droppings accumulate in processing plants. Maggots and other larvae breed in storage and transportation containers, on the floor, and in processing equipment and packaging, and they drop onto the conveyor belt from infested meat splattered on the ceiling. Slaughterhouses -- which by law must be inspected once every shift -- go as long as two weeks without inspection." -- Steve Striffler in "Chicken"
A guy earlier wanted me to start posting some of my sources for information and I just happened to remember this one. He was a guy that wanted to find out the truth about what goes on in slaughterhouses and meat-processing plants, and wrote this book about his findings.
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So to add my two cents..
I am not vegan, and would not go vegan. I am happy for others to be vegan, however in some cases (as in, friends and the like) it has almost gotten to the stage where they are fanatical about trying to convert anybody who is not vegan..I'm sure there are ups and downs to whichever diet you choose, and I am sure that vegan and non-vegan diets can be healthy, and also unhealthy. Please, just stop pretending that vegan is the holy grail of nutrition :D
To be fair I am almost on a vegetarian diet atm, primarily due to circumstances, and not because I choose to be, and the most significant difference I have found is that I occasionally have less energy, but I also weigh a couple of kilos less (and I am a pretty skinny guy to begin with)
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On September 21 2012 15:17 Blargh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 15:00 CatfooD wrote:On September 21 2012 14:57 Blargh wrote:On September 21 2012 14:47 Mstring wrote:
The floor is yours. What, do people actually think that a vegan diet is the optimal diet for humans? The optimal diet for every type of lifestyle is difficult to argue. He was just asking you to provide your opinion on the subject. Why don't you tell us what you know about a vegan diet, since it sounds like you dismiss the idea altogether. Of course there are pros and cons to both sides, but you seem to act like it is completely absurd and not possible on a long-term basis or something. Tell us what you think. You must not have read all of the previous posts. That's alright. I'm a vegetarian, actually. But yes... if we look at the evolution of man, we see that humans have been eating a omnivorous diet since forever. Now, usually over long periods of time, animals will adapt and adjust to certain things. Diet is not an exception. The diet that works best* for the animals stick to the animal. As animals change their lifestyles over the span of many years, their diet may change too. If their diet changes over the span of many years, their lifestyles will change. They are related. Meat provides a nice way of getting humans protein, iron, etc. that most the vegan diet will have trouble with. You will need to eat tofu, soy, nuts, bread, etc. in order to obtain similar nutrients. *not technically the best, but generally pretty close to optimal. Yes, both have ups and downs, but a diet that excludes such a large amount of food will never be the optimal diet. Though I absolutely believe you can live quite sufficiently off of a vegan diet and a vegetarian diet. Being "healthy" relative to the majority is actually pretty easy because so many people are unhealthy. That's about all I know. Sorry for including evolutionary concepts, that usually brings in more bickering over stupid-ass shit.
Oh, no I didn't read your earlier posts. I jumped on for the first time a page or two ago and didn't read the first 13.
If you consider a vegan that is aware of the nutrients that might become a problem if left alone and have already compensated for consuming them on a regular basis, what is the need to continue meat consumption? Especially with all of the unhealthy aspects of it considering the saturated fat and cholesterol content, the high acidity, the hormones and genetic modifications to the cow, and of course the ethical side?
I don't think it is as much "... a diet that excludes sucha large amount of food..." but more of a diet that includes the right food.
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On September 21 2012 06:14 kingcoyote wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 06:10 ImAbstracT wrote:
You can literally eat all the fruits, veggies, nuts, and plant based foods you want without worrying about being overweight.
What? You could sit on your couch all day and eat nothing but potato chips and drink soda and beer and have a perfectly vegan diet and be a lardass. I did it. I've been vegetarian my entire life and ended up at 220 lbs at 5'11' before I dropped back down to 170. Not eating animal products doesn't magically erase Calories from oils, sugar and alcohol.
Damn teach me. You're an inch taller and 10 pounds off from being twice my weight.
In other news, this topic is quite interesting. In more than one scenario it could turn into a very philosophical debate of evolution, since in a survival of the fittest we do what we want to or something? I tried being vegan for a week and it definitely wasn't fun. Vegetarian I can do. Vegan seems like far too much work for not enough satisfaction.
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On September 21 2012 15:20 FireSA wrote:
So to add my two cents..
I am not vegan, and would not go vegan. I am happy for others to be vegan, however in some cases (as in, friends and the like) it has almost gotten to the stage where they are fanatical about trying to convert anybody who is not vegan..I'm sure there are ups and downs to whichever diet you choose, and I am sure that vegan and non-vegan diets can be healthy, and also unhealthy. Please, just stop pretending that vegan is the holy grail of nutrition :D
To be fair I am almost on a vegetarian diet atm, primarily due to circumstances, and not because I choose to be, and the most significant difference I have found is that I occasionally have less energy, but I also weigh a couple of kilos less (and I am a pretty skinny guy to begin with)
Unfortunately I would say more than 80%, maybe closer to 90%, of all the vegans I have come in contact with are stuck-up elitists that preach their shit left and right at anyone that comes their way. So many of them have become obsessed with the idea and feel it is their right and duty to religiously smear it all over everyone else. It's sad to see because there are many benefits to realize and experience over a long period of time on this diet, and they waste so many opportunities to actually get people interested in the idea with their shitty, high-horse attitude.
One thing I will say about a friend telling you all about the diet is this: I have learned that one of the hardest things to do about being healthy and fit on a vegan diet is watching your friends and family destroy their health. Once you are aware of the consequences of what we put in our body, and have taken the time to experiment with ourselves to notice the difference in our mood, attitude, energy level, body size and type, etc., it becomes very difficult not to want to say a lot of things to the people we care about when we can feel from the past what they are doing to themselves in relation to how we feel now.
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Also a concept worth adding. The argument of -other animals eat meat, so why shouldn't we?- is sort of poor. Other animals are not as advanced intellectually. Some male animals will kill another male over a female mate. Should we do that too? The best way to think about these things is to look at the biggest picture possible and work your way down, relating how each bit of the "smaller picture" adds to the "biggest picture". If you believe the "biggest picture" is make humanity live indefinitely by expanding throughout the universe and outsmarting "nature" and what-not, then you should work on all of things to help to achieve that goal. If you believe the ultimate objective is world peace and happiness for all: man, woman, cat, dog, spider, etc. then you should probably stop eating meat and find ways to make the world go on without meat.
Anyway, I'm tired and would like to sleep. I wish you all the best in arguing over meat or no meat. Try to be logical, now.
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EPT
