EPTMeat is just way too fucking good to stop eating.
Veganism: A Discussion - Page 18
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
Meat is just way too fucking good to stop eating. | ||
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smokeyhoodoo
United States1021 Posts
On September 21 2012 16:47 SnipedSoul wrote: Frozen vegetables are better because they can be picked at optimal ripeness and then frozen. Fresh vegetables have to be picked a few days early so they don't spoil on the way to the store. The act of freezing something doesn't change its nutritional content at all. Frozen vegetables are simply washed, cut up, and quickly frozen. Canned vegetables are not that great because they have to be boiled before they can be safely canned. Boiling vegetables is probably the least effective way to cook them. Notice how the water will be colored when you're done. There's a fair bit of nutrition in that water. Add it to your potatoes or something instead of tossing it. The best way is to eat them fresh or lightly steamed. Oh for christ's sake, just shove vegetables down your throat. A lot of them. | ||
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blug
Australia623 Posts
On September 21 2012 16:30 HULKAMANIA wrote: I always find myself wondering this when vegans pop up on TL or IRL. Can someone explain to me why killing animals is wrong? (A follow up question: let's grant for the sake of argument that factory farming is wrong. How does it follow that I ought to avoid eating animal products entirely?) I guess it comes down to the persons perception of morals. Personally I am an animal lover, I would never want to think of an animal being mistreated before it's inevitable death sentence. I don't feel bad about killing animals though, because once they are dead they can't feel anymore. Basically, as long as the animal lives an "OK" life and it gets killed without even really knowing about it then it's cool. A lot of these meat companies don't treat their animals nicely though... I think the people's argument in which people think you should stop eating meat is so that you don't support the meat companies that treat the animals badly (Which isn't fair because not all meat companies do). I think it comes down to government regulations on the treatment of animals, I don't mind the minority of Vegans saying no to Meat, because it just brings the regulations up to shape. | ||
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SnipedSoul
Canada2158 Posts
On September 21 2012 16:59 smokeyhoodoo wrote: Oh for christ's sake, just shove vegetables down your throat. A lot of them. Of course. Everyone could benefit from adding any kind of vegetable to their diet. However, if you're concerned about getting that maximum amount of nutrition from them you should buy frozen vegetables, grow them yourself, or get them at a farmer's market. | ||
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HULKAMANIA
United States1219 Posts
On September 21 2012 16:47 StayPhrosty wrote: If i remember correctly, this has been previously discussed, but I'll try to add what I got out of it. Assuming you already understand the terrible conditions of animals in factory farms, it should be quite obvious that these methods are unethical and inhumane. To have an animal be tortured and put through extreme agony for most of it's life just for lower prices seems quite wrong to a lot of people. This being said, assuming perfect conditions I understand that a lot of vegans/vegetarians would rather not kill an animal just to be eaten when they have the choice of just eating fruits/veggies/legumes/etc. instead. I would think the idea of raising a living being just for the purpose of eating it is not something they agree with. To me personally I would not say such a thing is wrong, but I can still see a benefit to changing your lifestyle so that you truly understand what nutrients goes into and out of your body to maintain weight, health, etc. Choosing one style or diet over another I think is perhaps a much more nuanced debate, and one that I think needs more research. I appreciate the reply, and I know you're already aware of this because you seem like a smart dude, but you didn't answer either of my questions. You say that killing animals is not something that vegans "agree with." And you said a few lines before that that the inhumane conditions in factory farming "seem quite wrong." Niether of those, however, constitute legitimately reasoned responses. What I would like to hear from a vegan/vegetarian is why they categorically disagree with killing animals. Why is it wrong? And the corollary question is: granting that factory farming is wrong, why does that mean I ought to give up consuming any animal products whatsoever? How does that follow? | ||
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spacemonkeyy
Australia477 Posts
I seriously don't see how hard it is. Eat healthy animals, Eat healthy plants, Move about lots and Get plenty of sleep. Avoid toxic things. - common sense, live by our design to the environment we were designed to live in. All this questioning about certain macronutrient and micronutrient ratio is reductionist science- take a step back, what makes sense of what we are supposed to eat historically. | ||
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smokeyhoodoo
United States1021 Posts
On September 21 2012 17:22 HULKAMANIA wrote: I appreciate the reply, and I know you're already aware of this because you seem like a smart dude, but you didn't answer either of my questions. You say that killing animals is not something that vegans "agree with." And you said a few lines before that that the inhumane conditions in factory farming "seem quite wrong." Niether of those, however, constitute legitimately reasoned responses. What I would like to hear from a vegan/vegetarian is why they categorically disagree with killing animals. Why is it wrong? And the corollary question is: granting that factory farming is wrong, why does that mean I ought to give up consuming any animal products whatsoever? How does that follow? Because they have an emotional response to it. You do not, hence the disagreement. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On September 21 2012 07:41 BlueBird. wrote: I see,.. but I mean why contribute to the problem? Going vegan/vegetarian and eating locally grown produce is one of the best ways to make an impact on the planet, and leaving a very small footprint behind. The only other way is to get involved with politics and changing the world, I support The Green Party, and volunteer with them, but I am by no means a politician, and I don't think I'm a leader. I'll never change the masses opinion, so being vegan is great for the individual. By your logic if there was a huge blazing fire tearing down a city, we should all start little fires just cause, we can't stop the big fire anyways. I don't think the overall problem of greenhouse gases is affected by such minute changes in personal diets. So the rancher comes on hard times because of a rise in vegetarianism, and raises a few less cows. Hardly a big deal. I'm also contributing to global warming through my gas, bowel movements, and breathing ... at some point you've gotta say ... it doesn't matter one small bit. If shipping produce and using stuff like gaseous ripening techniques didn't make economic sense, they wouldn't be utilized so ubiquitously. It just makes sense to ship your produce goods to as many markets as you can competitively sell them in. In your fire example, I wouldn't consider throwing away my cigarette lighter because there's some firefighters battling some huge blaze around. It's a lighter ... and I'm craving a smoke! On September 21 2012 07:49 Dali. wrote: Yes but veganism isn't a bloc. Its an individual's choice. If that individual is a self-righteous prat then that's what they are. The reason they get hated on is presumably because they're going against the grain, are easy to stereotype and are passionate about their choices (it takes a lot of will power to avoid meat - its so good afterall). Characterising all of them because of their public image or anacdotal experience is foolish. I can only think of one vegeterian I know that maybe pushes the boundaries of acceptable conduct surrounding people's choices. One out of 15+ vegetarian/vegans. If you meet a scumbag vegan/vegetarian, then that's just who they are as a person and in no way reflects all other vegan/vegetarians. Granted, veganism isn't a bloc by a classical definition. I happen to live in an area where it is very fashionable to be a vegan. Heck, at a past job I routinely ran into them buying meat for their husbands and being clueless about the purchase. The identifying characteristic is the activism and the centralism over the rationale for their choice. Okay so you don't like fish, you don't like how it tastes. Conversation might end there (I might suggest some grilling options as well or invite the person over to try my own). But if you have to cook for an assembly including vegans, don't even bother casually asking one of the non-bloc bloc because it will be 1) a book on cruel farm practices or slaughterhouse practices or 2) I'm stopping global warming and saving precious little chickens and cows that go moo. And they'll talk your ear off, man. So I characterize them as a group because of shared stories amongst them and verbosity with sharing them. No, they aren't self-righteous arrogant pricks, at least I believe not most of them. They've got an image to change, however. My sample size (In the neighborhood of 30-40) isn't enough to generalize to the nation or world. Yet, in my area of southern California, there's some recurring characteristics, and I've seen enough in this thread that the perception, at least, is widespread. Where is the mean on the scale from "Concerned about health issues of meat" to "Green Party voter/PETA protestor/I know every piece of literature on cruel animal abuse in last 10 years"? Maybe we'll get a scientific study on that one day =) | ||
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Deadeight
United Kingdom1629 Posts
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Orek
1665 Posts
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Atreides
United States2393 Posts
P.S. Eat wild alaskan seafood best stuff in the world. | ||
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Funnytoss
Taiwan1471 Posts
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StayPhrosty
Canada406 Posts
On September 21 2012 17:22 HULKAMANIA wrote: I appreciate the reply, and I know you're already aware of this because you seem like a smart dude, but you didn't answer either of my questions. You say that killing animals is not something that vegans "agree with." And you said a few lines before that that the inhumane conditions in factory farming "seem quite wrong." Niether of those, however, constitute legitimately reasoned responses. What I would like to hear from a vegan/vegetarian is why they categorically disagree with killing animals. Why is it wrong? And the corollary question is: granting that factory farming is wrong, why does that mean I ought to give up consuming any animal products whatsoever? How does that follow? im headed to bed after this, but ill try and give you an answer really quickly. i tried to write a sentence to calrify like 4 times but deleted it each time because i'm having a hard time understanding what you mean by "legitimately reasoned responses". I suppose the best i can do is to say that they value the life of an animal more than they value their appetite for meat. I'm not sure what else to say really. relating it to myself, i would say that if 1 person had to die to save 1000 people's lives then i would let that 1 die. if i had the choice, though, to kill a person for fun or not to kill that person, i would chose not to, because i believe that person has the right to live a happy life how they chose to. similarly, i would kill an animal if i had to because my family were starving and i had no other choice. then they would continue by saying they, given the choice, they would let and animal live rather than killing it for fun. as for the factory farming conditions, i would ask you, do they seem right? honestly. i dont personally believe we cant eat meat at all, but it seems obvious that living conditions as well as milk/egg etc. extraction procedures and euthanasia practices all need to be improved. i find torture for no other purpose than convenience to be unacceptable, plain and simple. as for your last bit, i would say that i disagree that vegans should force all other people not to eat meat, as i believe it should be every persons own choice, but i would say that it is quite a logical step to attempt to convince your friends and family of something that you are so passionate about. pushing it on other people may not be sensible, but another poster recently talked a bit about how painful it is seeing your loved ones suffer from unhealthy lifestyles after you have learned so much about them yourself. i cant argue for veganism over other healthy lifestyles, but i can say that many people live unhealthily simply due to ignorance, so it should be no surprise that people are attempting to spread what they believe to be good information on living a healthy lifestyle. | ||
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SnipedSoul
Canada2158 Posts
On September 21 2012 17:44 Orek wrote: I don't know if this is directly relevant to discussion, but I wonder how this could affect future demographics of humanity. If vegan/vegetarians are more healthy, then they are more likely to leave offsprings. Darwin's natural selection occurs and more and more become vegan/vegetarian over generations? Tastes of vegetables might be better for future humanity than what we experience today because liking vegetable is "superior trait." It doesn't happen over 2-3 generations, but after 100 generations, maybe? It's possible, but I don't see meat eaters struggling to crank out millions of babies every year. | ||
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3del
Germany23 Posts
About two years ago i saw some documentaries about healthy nutrition, the china study and especially athletes that lived vegan. The last thing was actually news to me, since i always had the typical stereotype vegan in my mind. I was eating meat several times a day at the time, and didn't really feel good about myself (not necessarily connected with meat only). So i said to myself, just give it a try for a day. What i want to say here is, that i didn't feel i missed anything from the first day. I didn't envy anyone who was eating meat, rather felt sorry for them. Just like with my more successful attempts to stop smoking. So i was eating lots of carbohydrates at the time, and one of my main goals (loosing some weight) was not achieved by this. I was perplexed, i was actually gaining weight. Then, after a short talk to my father, i switched the diet to vegetables in the evening, still eating pasta mid day, and lost a lot of weight in ~ 2 months. (I still use this to lose weight when i feel i need to  )I was feeling really good about myself, and didn't have any thought on animal products. But i realized that i was getting disgusted by people who were eating meat, and therefore decided to eat it once in a while. This was a mistake in hindsight, since i now eat meat whenever i want to again (have to change that). So i guess all i want to say is: 1. It's not hard! You can't get vegan food as easy when you're in a mall or somewhere (you can still get vegetarian food though), but if you cook for yourself, you won't feel any cutbacks. -> makes you feel like you accomplished something. First you think it will be hard, then you just naturally pass the meat in the supermarket. 2. You will feel more healthy. 3. You will look more healthy. 4. You can still be big, sportive, athletic, skinny, whatever you like. | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
Veganism, on the other hand, is almost decadent. The only reason vegans exist is because we, in the US and Western Europe, don't have any food shortages; we can eat whatever we want, basically. In most countries around the world, you just eat whatever's available. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On September 21 2012 16:47 SnipedSoul wrote: Frozen vegetables are better because they can be picked at optimal ripeness and then frozen. Fresh vegetables have to be picked a few days early so they don't spoil on the way to the store. The act of freezing something doesn't change its nutritional content at all. Frozen vegetables are simply washed, cut up, and quickly frozen. Canned vegetables are not that great because they have to be boiled before they can be safely canned. Boiling vegetables is probably the least effective way to cook them. Notice how the water will be colored when you're done. There's a fair bit of nutrition in that water. Add it to your potatoes or something instead of tossing it. The best way is to eat them fresh or lightly steamed. The problem about frozen food is that they require LOTS of energy and we should use less of that. Another usually unanswered question is: Do we actually NEED that amount of additional vitamines and so on which frozen food has compared to the other versions? Humanity has survived without frozen food and so my guess is: No, we dont need that extra bit and can get by with non-frozen foods! | ||
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GhostKorean
United States2330 Posts
On September 21 2012 16:59 blug wrote: I guess it comes down to the persons perception of morals. Personally I am an animal lover, I would never want to think of an animal being mistreated before it's inevitable death sentence. I don't feel bad about killing animals though, because once they are dead they can't feel anymore. Basically, as long as the animal lives an "OK" life and it gets killed without even really knowing about it then it's cool. A lot of these meat companies don't treat their animals nicely though... I think the people's argument in which people think you should stop eating meat is so that you don't support the meat companies that treat the animals badly (Which isn't fair because not all meat companies do). I think it comes down to government regulations on the treatment of animals, I don't mind the minority of Vegans saying no to Meat, because it just brings the regulations up to shape. You're seeing immoral treatment of animals but all I'm seeing is efficiency. | ||
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Ludwigvan
Germany2371 Posts
On September 21 2012 18:36 maartendq wrote: [...] Veganism, on the other hand, is almost decadent. The only reason vegans exist is because we, in the US and Western Europe, don't have any food shortages; we can eat whatever we want, basically. In most countries around the world, you just eat whatever's available. It is also very decadent not to eat our neighbor. Because we have enough food. We do not have to eat him. In many villages around the world they just rape women, because they don't have prisons and police. We should really go back to neanderthal ethics, because they knew what was right. + Show Spoiler + [/sarcasm] | ||
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smokeyhoodoo
United States1021 Posts
On September 21 2012 18:58 Rabiator wrote: The problem about frozen food is that they require LOTS of energy and we should use less of that. Another usually unanswered question is: Do we actually NEED that amount of additional vitamines and so on which frozen food has compared to the other versions? Humanity has survived without frozen food and so my guess is: No, we dont need that extra bit and can get by with non-frozen foods! Time to turn off your computer hypocrite. | ||
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