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On September 21 2012 15:20 CatfooD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 15:05 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
There are no health benefits to going vegan. Monitoring your diet so that your body gets everything it needs and in the proper proportions does have health benefits. That can be done with a vegan diet, or a diet with animal products. You can also have a truly awful diet with either. Chicken eggs are immensely healthy for you. They have all the proteins your body needs, and in the proper proportions. They have 25% of the required daily intake of choline. Very few people meet this required intake, and its difficult to get without eggs in your diet. A lot of people don't recognize that you can have a truly awful diet with either meat-eating or veganism, just like you said. It depends on a lot of factors of course and is normally more complex than people want to think. Chicken, eggs, and every meat and dairy product have all of the amino acids in protein. The drawback to the protein in animal products has a lot to do with an earlier post I made about it making your blood very acidic and leeching calcium out of your bones. Eggs also have one of the highest concentrations of cholesterol of any food on the planet. The energy in that yolk is meant to give enough energy to fuel that chick for weeks. Also you have to consider that these foods have to be cooked before you can consume them (normally), which destroys huge portions of the protein and vitamins and minerals in the food before you consume it. Vitamins and protein get destroyed really easily, but minerals are usually a lot more resilient thankfully. When you eat raw fruits and vegetables, for instance, you don't run into this problem at all and are able to make use of 100% of all the nutrients the food provides. Aside from those ideas, you still want to think about how the food is grown and processed before it gets to your table. Considering chicken like you mentioned: "Up to one-quarter of slaughtered chickens on the inspection line are covered with feces, bile, and feed. Dead and diseased animals are processed and end up in the supermarket. Chickens are soaked in baths of chlorine to remove slime and odor. Mixtures of excrement, blood, oil, grease, rust, paint, insecticides, and rodent droppings accumulate in processing plants. Maggots and other larvae breed in storage and transportation containers, on the floor, and in processing equipment and packaging, and they drop onto the conveyor belt from infested meat splattered on the ceiling. Slaughterhouses -- which by law must be inspected once every shift -- go as long as two weeks without inspection." -- Steve Striffler in "Chicken" A guy earlier wanted me to start posting some of my sources for information and I just happened to remember this one. He was a guy that wanted to find out the truth about what goes on in slaughterhouses and meat-processing plants, and wrote this book about his findings.
Yes, there is a lot of cholesterol in eggs, but it is actually good for your cholesterol profile. I got this from WHFoods.
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=92#healthbenefits
They site a study in Mexico concerning the subject. It's counter intuitive and I don't understand why, but that's apparently how it is.
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On September 21 2012 15:20 CatfooD wrote:
"Up to one-quarter of slaughtered chickens on the inspection line are covered with feces, bile, and feed. Dead and diseased animals are processed and end up in the supermarket. Chickens are soaked in baths of chlorine to remove slime and odor. Mixtures of excrement, blood, oil, grease, rust, paint, insecticides, and rodent droppings accumulate in processing plants. Maggots and other larvae breed in storage and transportation containers, on the floor, and in processing equipment and packaging, and they drop onto the conveyor belt from infested meat splattered on the ceiling. Slaughterhouses -- which by law must be inspected once every shift -- go as long as two weeks without inspection." -- Steve Striffler in "Chicken"
A guy earlier wanted me to start posting some of my sources for information and I just happened to remember this one. He was a guy that wanted to find out the truth about what goes on in slaughterhouses and meat-processing plants, and wrote this book about his findings.
What a load of shit. Find a source without an obvious agenda, please. If what you're saying was even remotely true, there would have been huge news stories about it by now. Also, people would be getting food poisoning left and right. If my memory is right, the last big batch of e. coli was caused by prepackaged spinach a few years ago.
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On September 21 2012 15:19 Hemling wrote:
I eat vegetarian dishes sometimes and I wouldnt mind to cut down meat comsumption a bit altough giving it up entirely is out of the question sorry =)
I'm curious why the vegetarian alternatives usually are more expensive then the meat version, shouldnt it be the other way around?
Subsidies and supply and demand, I mean if over time the demand went up, then they could make production cheaper, if you suddenly had everyone wanting to eat vegan alternatives it would drive prices way up cause there wouldn't be nearly enough supply, it also depends exactly what the alternative is made of.
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On September 21 2012 15:31 phiinix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 06:14 kingcoyote wrote:On September 21 2012 06:10 ImAbstracT wrote:
You can literally eat all the fruits, veggies, nuts, and plant based foods you want without worrying about being overweight.
What? You could sit on your couch all day and eat nothing but potato chips and drink soda and beer and have a perfectly vegan diet and be a lardass. I did it. I've been vegetarian my entire life and ended up at 220 lbs at 5'11' before I dropped back down to 170. Not eating animal products doesn't magically erase Calories from oils, sugar and alcohol. Damn teach me. You're an inch taller and 10 pounds off from being twice my weight. In other news, this topic is quite interesting. In more than one scenario it could turn into a very philosophical debate of evolution, since in a survival of the fittest we do what we want to or something? I tried being vegan for a week and it definitely wasn't fun. Vegetarian I can do. Vegan seems like far too much work for not enough satisfaction.
Don't get turned off too easily. It is a lifestyle that takes a lot of planning and consideration if you are not ready for it. I have been doing this for 2 years now, and I still make significant changes to the food I eat, how I shop, when food is ripe to eat, how to plan for future meals, what to do if I am going to be away from home for most of the day, etc.
We spend our entire lives living one way, but then all of a sudden we want to change that lifestyle overnight and get good results. If we are used to waking up in the morning and eating cereal or pancakes and eggs, then go to a sandwich place for lunch, then come home for some kind of family meal for dinner or go out to eat again, it will be hard to supplement a vegan diet for that lifestyle unless you know how to prepare and plan to compensate and/or change your lifestyle.
It also takes your body months to reestablish itself to your changing diet if you persist with it. My father cannot eat a banana or an apple for instance, because he has spent so many decades eating hamburgers, hotdogs, frozen TV diners, and boxes of twinkies and oreos that his body has gotten used to the type of food he consumes and how to digest it best. You need to give your body sufficient time to adapt to the changes you are making to your body. Think about drinking for the first time or two or three -- you don't want to have a half a dozen shots of hard liquor your first times drinking until you get used to its effects and how your body deals with it.
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On September 21 2012 15:41 CatfooD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 15:31 phiinix wrote:On September 21 2012 06:14 kingcoyote wrote:On September 21 2012 06:10 ImAbstracT wrote:
You can literally eat all the fruits, veggies, nuts, and plant based foods you want without worrying about being overweight.
What? You could sit on your couch all day and eat nothing but potato chips and drink soda and beer and have a perfectly vegan diet and be a lardass. I did it. I've been vegetarian my entire life and ended up at 220 lbs at 5'11' before I dropped back down to 170. Not eating animal products doesn't magically erase Calories from oils, sugar and alcohol. Damn teach me. You're an inch taller and 10 pounds off from being twice my weight. In other news, this topic is quite interesting. In more than one scenario it could turn into a very philosophical debate of evolution, since in a survival of the fittest we do what we want to or something? I tried being vegan for a week and it definitely wasn't fun. Vegetarian I can do. Vegan seems like far too much work for not enough satisfaction. Don't get turned off too easily. It is a lifestyle that takes a lot of planning and consideration if you are not ready for it. I have been doing this for 2 years now, and I still make significant changes to the food I eat, how I shop, when food is ripe to eat, how to plan for future meals, what to do if I am going to be away from home for most of the day, etc. We spend our entire lives living one way, but then all of a sudden we want to change that lifestyle overnight and get good results. If we are used to waking up in the morning and eating cereal or pancakes and eggs, then go to a sandwich place for lunch, then come home for some kind of family meal for dinner or go out to eat again, it will be hard to supplement a vegan diet for that lifestyle unless you know how to prepare and plan to compensate and/or change your lifestyle. It also takes your body months to reestablish itself to your changing diet if you persist with it. My father cannot eat a banana or an apple for instance, because he has spent so many decades eating hamburgers, hotdogs, frozen TV diners, and boxes of twinkies and oreos that his body has gotten used to the type of food he consumes and how to digest it best. You need to give your body sufficient time to adapt to the changes you are making to your body. Think about drinking for the first time or two or three -- you don't want to have a half a dozen shots of hard liquor your first times drinking until you get used to its effects and how your body deals with it.
Do you think if you added salmon and organic eggs to your diet it would be less healthy? I'm just curious if you think there is an actual inherent health benefit to being vegan.
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On September 21 2012 15:38 SnipedSoul wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 15:20 CatfooD wrote:
"Up to one-quarter of slaughtered chickens on the inspection line are covered with feces, bile, and feed. Dead and diseased animals are processed and end up in the supermarket. Chickens are soaked in baths of chlorine to remove slime and odor. Mixtures of excrement, blood, oil, grease, rust, paint, insecticides, and rodent droppings accumulate in processing plants. Maggots and other larvae breed in storage and transportation containers, on the floor, and in processing equipment and packaging, and they drop onto the conveyor belt from infested meat splattered on the ceiling. Slaughterhouses -- which by law must be inspected once every shift -- go as long as two weeks without inspection." -- Steve Striffler in "Chicken"
A guy earlier wanted me to start posting some of my sources for information and I just happened to remember this one. He was a guy that wanted to find out the truth about what goes on in slaughterhouses and meat-processing plants, and wrote this book about his findings. What a load of shit. Find a source without an obvious agenda, please. If what you're saying was even remotely true, there would have been huge news stories about it by now. Also, people would be getting food poisoning left and right. If my memory is right, the last big batch of e. coli was caused by prepackaged spinach a few years ago.
Why is it difficult for people to imagine that something they don't want to believe can be true? You can watch numerous videos and documentaries illustrating the conditions of this slaughterhouses yourself if you actually cared to learn the information -- you don't need to take it from this guy. In fact, why don't you go visit some of these slaughterhouses and see what you think when you come out? The illegal Mexican immigrants that worked in that facility didn't even eat the chicken themselves, even while working there.
The reason there aren't huge news stories about it are because the meat and dairy industry is one of the absolute most profitable and subsidized industries in the US, and goes through immense procedures keeping all of the dirty truths away from the public eye. If slaughterhouses had glass walls, we wouldn't be having this debate. What do you expect the facilities to be like when they have to process all of the body parts of over 30 billion land animals a year to feed our country?
The E. coli that you are talking about was from pig fecal runoff that infected fields of spinach in the area. That bacteria comes from the lower intestines of animals, not spinach.
I can argue that people get more than food poisoning... they get dead when they abuse meat and dairy by contracting coronary heart disease, osteoporosis, colon cancer, irritable bowel syndrome, diabetes, and I can go.
The subject of veganism is mostly about wanting to find out the truth for yourself, and not about wanting to just oppose people that don't do things the same as you. If you care about any of this, you need to want to believe the truth and go discover things on your own, otherwise you will forever see people like me as a lunatic.
In fact, I convinced a vegan to start eating meat again and a vegetarian to start eating chicken just a few months before I decided to try veganism because I was so dumbfounded on the idea of not doing something that I had blindly done my whole life.
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I told myself I wasn't going to post in this thread, but when I read through this page I facepalmed so hard that I just had to do it.
On September 21 2012 15:20 CatfooD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 15:05 smokeyhoodoo wrote:
There are no health benefits to going vegan. Monitoring your diet so that your body gets everything it needs and in the proper proportions does have health benefits. That can be done with a vegan diet, or a diet with animal products. You can also have a truly awful diet with either. Chicken eggs are immensely healthy for you. They have all the proteins your body needs, and in the proper proportions. They have 25% of the required daily intake of choline. Very few people meet this required intake, and its difficult to get without eggs in your diet. A lot of people don't recognize that you can have a truly awful diet with either meat-eating or veganism, just like you said. It depends on a lot of factors of course and is normally more complex than people want to think.
This is the truest statement that you make in your entire post, and most of the health benefits from "going vegan/going vegetarian" actually can be achieved equally well with meat, just by paying attention to what it is you're eating in the first place.
On September 21 2012 15:20 CatfooD wrote:
Chicken, eggs, and every meat and dairy product have all of the amino acids in protein. The drawback to the protein in animal products has a lot to do with an earlier post I made about it making your blood very acidic and leeching calcium out of your bones. Eggs also have one of the highest concentrations of cholesterol of any food on the planet. The energy in that yolk is meant to give enough energy to fuel that chick for weeks.
Also you have to consider that these foods have to be cooked before you can consume them (normally), which destroys huge portions of the protein and vitamins and minerals in the food before you consume it. Vitamins and protein get destroyed really easily, but minerals are usually a lot more resilient thankfully. When you eat raw fruits and vegetables, for instance, you don't run into this problem at all and are able to make use of 100% of all the nutrients the food provides.
This is where I start facepalming. First, Dietary Cholesterol does not have a significant impact on level of serum "bad" cholesterol; the studies that the US dietary guidelines are based on that tell you otherwise was performed in the 1940's and 1950's, by a drug company, and has several methodological errors. perscribing a diet low in cholesterol or saturated fat to "fix" high cholesterol is like perscribing that someone stop drinking water, to cure having to go to the bathroom. It'll do it, eventually, but it's not smart.
Second, nothing gets "destroyed" in cooking. Proteins are broken down into their constituent amino acids (and then rebuilt, in different and branching ways, and broken again.... etc.) but that does not change their nutritional value; if anything it makes them more easily absorbed. The protein in a cooked egg is significantly more bioavailable than that of a raw egg; something like 75 vs 99% (off the top of my head, but I can look this up. For comparison soy, the "best" vegan protein comes in at around 40% bioavailable). There may be some slight oxidation in the outside of the food, IF you cook it over high heat in a poorly surfaced pan, and it's burnt.... but that happens stirfrying vegetables much easier than it does to meat anyway.
On September 21 2012 15:20 CatfooD wrote:
Aside from those ideas, you still want to think about how the food is grown and processed before it gets to your table. Considering chicken like you mentioned:
"Up to one-quarter of slaughtered chickens on the inspection line are covered with feces, bile, and feed. Dead and diseased animals are processed and end up in the supermarket. Chickens are soaked in baths of chlorine to remove slime and odor. Mixtures of excrement, blood, oil, grease, rust, paint, insecticides, and rodent droppings accumulate in processing plants. Maggots and other larvae breed in storage and transportation containers, on the floor, and in processing equipment and packaging, and they drop onto the conveyor belt from infested meat splattered on the ceiling. Slaughterhouses -- which by law must be inspected once every shift -- go as long as two weeks without inspection." -- Steve Striffler in "Chicken"
A guy earlier wanted me to start posting some of my sources for information and I just happened to remember this one. He was a guy that wanted to find out the truth about what goes on in slaughterhouses and meat-processing plants, and wrote this book about his findings.
If you want to talk about inhumane conditions, lets talk about the workers in mega-orchards, or the damage to the earth that we do with factory farming of vegetables. If we want to talk about disease, lets talk about the proportion of vegetables that spoils during transportation.
What's the frequency of actual outbreaks of disease (e.coli, salmonella, etc.) from most of these slaughter houses? Doesn't happen very often, does it? That's why it's such big news whenever it actually does occur. So the cleaning methods being used - while they might sound terrible to you, reading them here on the internet are still effective - and that's what they're there for, not for sounding pretty. As far as living conditions, I quite frankly don't give a damn - it's necessary for me to afford my food, and I need this food to be healthy, therefore this needs to continue to happen. Why am I responsible for the feelings of a damn chicken?
On September 21 2012 15:27 CatfooD wrote:
Oh, no I didn't read your earlier posts. I jumped on for the first time a page or two ago and didn't read the first 13.
If you consider a vegan that is aware of the nutrients that might become a problem if left alone and have already compensated for consuming them on a regular basis, what is the need to continue meat consumption? Especially with all of the unhealthy aspects of it considering the saturated fat and cholesterol content, the high acidity, the hormones and genetic modifications to the cow, and of course the ethical side?
I don't think it is as much "... a diet that excludes sucha large amount of food..." but more of a diet that includes the right food.
Saturated Fat is not unhealthy. Cholesterol is not unhealthy. A huge excess of these two things, coupled with complete inactivity on the part of the person consuming them, and a genetic risk factor for heart disease is unhealthy. More commonly unhealthy is micronutrient deficiency when a teenage girl tries veganism and thinks that all she needs to eat from now on is peanut butter sandwiches.
Acidity is a problem? Is that a joke? Explain that one please.
You can't argue about GMO's while you're eating soy. Soy and Corn are the first and second (respectively) most heavily modified organisms on the entire planet. Hell, Soy isn't healthy even before all the modifications.
Animals being fed hormones is a bad thing, you've got me there - but this is on the same level as the situation chickens are kept in, as far as I'm concerned - My "ethical stance" here is that I need food, and this is the way it has to be done for me to afford it. My survival is more important to me than the welfare of a chicken or cow. Apparently we disagree there - but that's an opinion, and neither of us are going to change each other's minds.
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On September 21 2012 15:12 zocktol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 15:08 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 15:00 zocktol wrote:On September 21 2012 14:53 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 14:39 Zariel wrote:
I still don't understand why would you choose to be vegan if you have to end up taking supplements. If your diet does not give you the satisfactory nutrition, then your diet is clearly not working. I just end up being dumbfounded when I encounter a vegan who takes dietary supplements. (Really though, inside my head I just want to slap them silly to have such logic) Pretty much the only thing you MIGHT need is Vitamin B-12. A lot of vegan food (e.g. soy milk) has artificial B-12 in it already. Besides that, we're talking about 5-6 years of a STRICT vegan diet while purposely avoiding with B-12 fortified soy milk and similar stuff before the levels get to a unhealthy level. Everything else can be obtained just fine. Hi there, the body needs Vitamin B-12 in order to sustain the nervous system and helps in forming blood, now if you do not want a nervous system or blood, that is you choice. Vegan Website about B12I never had a problem with vegans but the amount of misinformation i hear form some of them is actually sickening  Erhm. Thats.... what I just said...? The only thing you MIGHT need (as a supplement to a vegan diet) is Vitamin B-12. No you WILL need Vitamin B-12 supplements if you decide to go vegan. The way you are writing it with a emphasis on might sounds like you are saying, "You might need B-12 Supplements, you might not."
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If you consume enough vegan products enriched with B-12 (of which there are a lot), you won't need supplements. If you don't take any B-12 for 3 years, you won't need supplements. B-12 supplies last for up to 6 years and are easily refilled.
Only if you avoid any and all sources of B-12 out there you need artificial supplements. That is why you might need them, or you might not.
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On September 21 2012 15:55 smokeyhoodoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 15:41 CatfooD wrote:On September 21 2012 15:31 phiinix wrote:On September 21 2012 06:14 kingcoyote wrote:On September 21 2012 06:10 ImAbstracT wrote:
You can literally eat all the fruits, veggies, nuts, and plant based foods you want without worrying about being overweight.
What? You could sit on your couch all day and eat nothing but potato chips and drink soda and beer and have a perfectly vegan diet and be a lardass. I did it. I've been vegetarian my entire life and ended up at 220 lbs at 5'11' before I dropped back down to 170. Not eating animal products doesn't magically erase Calories from oils, sugar and alcohol. Damn teach me. You're an inch taller and 10 pounds off from being twice my weight. In other news, this topic is quite interesting. In more than one scenario it could turn into a very philosophical debate of evolution, since in a survival of the fittest we do what we want to or something? I tried being vegan for a week and it definitely wasn't fun. Vegetarian I can do. Vegan seems like far too much work for not enough satisfaction. Don't get turned off too easily. It is a lifestyle that takes a lot of planning and consideration if you are not ready for it. I have been doing this for 2 years now, and I still make significant changes to the food I eat, how I shop, when food is ripe to eat, how to plan for future meals, what to do if I am going to be away from home for most of the day, etc. We spend our entire lives living one way, but then all of a sudden we want to change that lifestyle overnight and get good results. If we are used to waking up in the morning and eating cereal or pancakes and eggs, then go to a sandwich place for lunch, then come home for some kind of family meal for dinner or go out to eat again, it will be hard to supplement a vegan diet for that lifestyle unless you know how to prepare and plan to compensate and/or change your lifestyle. It also takes your body months to reestablish itself to your changing diet if you persist with it. My father cannot eat a banana or an apple for instance, because he has spent so many decades eating hamburgers, hotdogs, frozen TV diners, and boxes of twinkies and oreos that his body has gotten used to the type of food he consumes and how to digest it best. You need to give your body sufficient time to adapt to the changes you are making to your body. Think about drinking for the first time or two or three -- you don't want to have a half a dozen shots of hard liquor your first times drinking until you get used to its effects and how your body deals with it. Do you think if you added salmon and organic eggs to your diet it would be less healthy? I'm just curious if you think there is an actual inherent health benefit to being vegan.
Hmmm, it's difficult to say. I am not any expert by any means, and I am still learning things every day. I am mainly going off of my own testimony, research, and experiences. I eat about 97% vegan or so, but I just tell people I am vegan to make it easier to understand, and then I can explain later if it gets down to it. Every so often I will do something like eat a small piece of grilled fish, or a cup of Greek organic non-fat yogurt or ... something like those things.
If I could give any advise towards that idea, I would say this: Do what you can to eat the most organic firstly, and if you buy fish make sure it is wild caught and not farmed. Fish has a lot of fats and cholesterol in it just like red meat, but it is a lot easier to digest and has healthy omega-3 fatty acids in it that red meat doesn't have. Eggs I just wouldn't eat at all, because when you pass that thick, greasy egg yolk through your arteries, it clogs them up just like butter does. And then we put added salt on the eggs afterwards so we can shrink and clog our arteries at the same time, heh.
Wild caught fish is the best type of meat I could suggest eating. All of the animal biproducts are really high in saturated fats and cholesterols though -- butter, milk, yogurt, eggs, and cheese. If you are concerned about your consumption rates, just start by trying to eat meats and dairy products half as often, then half as often again a few weeks later. Doing things this way takes a longer time to notice changes in your body, since you aren't cutting a lot of the problems out completely, and you are doing it over a long period of time.
I've got to get to bed unfortunately, but I am glad I found this topic today and hope to be back in the next couple days after work. Nice chatting everyone. Cheers.
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there seems to be several actively posing vegans ITT, so I would love for somebody to talk with about this. I have considered going vegan, or ketogenic, for a little while now, but being a university student means I'm totally strapped for cash, and honestly I'm not in a position to make a total lifestyle change like that right now. I honestly really dislike the current industrial food system, but right now I know my impact on it (should i choose to go vegan) would not matter much, and I would rather wait until I'm in a position (socially and economically) to make a really big dent, which I would very much like to do.
Something I would really like to hear about though (and this may differ from person to person) would be, if I were to find a local source of ethically treated animals (free range, taken care of properly, euthanized ethically, not force fed or abused etc.) would you still consider eating them unethical? I mean, I honestly need to do more research, but should it not be possible to form a sustainable way of eating meat/meat products, (i think i could handle reducing my meat consumption in general, and also paying more for properly treated animals)?
I do see dietary benefits to a vegan diet, but I also see benefits to many other diets as well. Heck, even just eating how I do already while slowly incorporating healthier things like whole grains and fewer processed foods seems like an option. The trouble I constantly run into whenever I look into this stuff is that everybody seems to be in 1 of 2 camps. 1- "OUR OPTION IS THE BEST. THERE IS NOTHING ELSE. WE ARE THE HEALTHIEST, BESTEST, NOTHING TO LOSE SYSTEM, DISREGARD ALL OTHER SYSTEMS WHO SAY THE EXACT SAME THING ABOUT THEMSELVES". or 2- "yeah uuuh, i do exactly this, and here is an overly complicated single meal, but you can do similar things. if you need more than this single healthy thing then just look around, theres lots of info on the internet. everybody is kind of right and you just sort of, eat 'healthy' and you'll be fine. oh and by the way everything you think is healthy actually isnt. yeah uuh, heres some more generic 'pro-active' buzz words for you."
I'm REALLY desperate for a proper source of information. there are very few places I've seen that actually acknowledge other diets/systems, and everybody seems to just want to sell you their product and then take off with the cash and leave you in the dust. It seems extremely difficult to count every single calorie and nutrient and vitamin I'm getting, but when I don't I just sort of feel a little guilty about 'everything' that I eat because somewhere somebody has said that everything is terrible and everything in moderation and only eat this blah blah blah... I try to just not even buy blatantly unhealthy things, but then I go hear about how the soy sauce I use every day is terribly high in sodium, so I buy low sodium soy sauce. Then I see 'low fat ranch dressing' and i think 'great!' and afterwards I read about how not all fat is unhealthy and how all these products just hide behind artificial sweeteners or whatever. Ugh. that turned into a rant but whatever, it took too long I'm not deleting it lol. anyways the thing i think I was trying to get at was that I kind of understand the benefits to a lot of raw and organic vegetables/fruits etc, but it seems hard to distinguish what I should actually eat, seeing as how nobody seems to acknowledge how to actually incorporate these various healthy things into your lifestyle.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On September 21 2012 16:07 CatfooD wrote:
Fish has a lot of fats and cholesterol in it just like red meat, but it is a lot easier to digest and has healthy omega-3 fatty acids in it that red meat doesn't have.
Naturally fed animals contain omega-3 fatty acids. For example, beef from grass fed cows contain an omega3-omega6 ratio that's about 1:2.
A lot of the information that people throw around in nutrient debates are usually lies, or based on decades old research by companies with much to gain from the results. People (on both sides) need to do more research.
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On September 21 2012 16:07 CatfooD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 15:55 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On September 21 2012 15:41 CatfooD wrote:On September 21 2012 15:31 phiinix wrote:On September 21 2012 06:14 kingcoyote wrote:On September 21 2012 06:10 ImAbstracT wrote:
You can literally eat all the fruits, veggies, nuts, and plant based foods you want without worrying about being overweight.
What? You could sit on your couch all day and eat nothing but potato chips and drink soda and beer and have a perfectly vegan diet and be a lardass. I did it. I've been vegetarian my entire life and ended up at 220 lbs at 5'11' before I dropped back down to 170. Not eating animal products doesn't magically erase Calories from oils, sugar and alcohol. Damn teach me. You're an inch taller and 10 pounds off from being twice my weight. In other news, this topic is quite interesting. In more than one scenario it could turn into a very philosophical debate of evolution, since in a survival of the fittest we do what we want to or something? I tried being vegan for a week and it definitely wasn't fun. Vegetarian I can do. Vegan seems like far too much work for not enough satisfaction. Don't get turned off too easily. It is a lifestyle that takes a lot of planning and consideration if you are not ready for it. I have been doing this for 2 years now, and I still make significant changes to the food I eat, how I shop, when food is ripe to eat, how to plan for future meals, what to do if I am going to be away from home for most of the day, etc. We spend our entire lives living one way, but then all of a sudden we want to change that lifestyle overnight and get good results. If we are used to waking up in the morning and eating cereal or pancakes and eggs, then go to a sandwich place for lunch, then come home for some kind of family meal for dinner or go out to eat again, it will be hard to supplement a vegan diet for that lifestyle unless you know how to prepare and plan to compensate and/or change your lifestyle. It also takes your body months to reestablish itself to your changing diet if you persist with it. My father cannot eat a banana or an apple for instance, because he has spent so many decades eating hamburgers, hotdogs, frozen TV diners, and boxes of twinkies and oreos that his body has gotten used to the type of food he consumes and how to digest it best. You need to give your body sufficient time to adapt to the changes you are making to your body. Think about drinking for the first time or two or three -- you don't want to have a half a dozen shots of hard liquor your first times drinking until you get used to its effects and how your body deals with it. Do you think if you added salmon and organic eggs to your diet it would be less healthy? I'm just curious if you think there is an actual inherent health benefit to being vegan. Hmmm, it's difficult to say. I am not any expert by any means, and I am still learning things every day. I am mainly going off of my own testimony, research, and experiences. I eat about 97% vegan or so, but I just tell people I am vegan to make it easier to understand, and then I can explain later if it gets down to it. Every so often I will do something like eat a small piece of grilled fish, or a cup of Greek organic non-fat yogurt or ... something like those things. If I could give any advise towards that idea, I would say this: Do what you can to eat the most organic firstly, and if you buy fish make sure it is wild caught and not farmed. Fish has a lot of fats and cholesterol in it just like red meat, but it is a lot easier to digest and has healthy omega-3 fatty acids in it that red meat doesn't have. Eggs I just wouldn't eat at all, because when you pass that thick, greasy egg yolk through your arteries, it clogs them up just like butter does. And then we put added salt on the eggs afterwards so we can shrink and clog our arteries at the same time, heh. Wild caught fish is the best type of meat I could suggest eating. All of the animal biproducts are really high in saturated fats and cholesterols though -- butter, milk, yogurt, eggs, and cheese. If you are concerned about your consumption rates, just start by trying to eat meats and dairy products half as often, then half as often again a few weeks later. Doing things this way takes a longer time to notice changes in your body, since you aren't cutting a lot of the problems out completely, and you are doing it over a long period of time. I've got to get to bed unfortunately, but I am glad I found this topic today and hope to be back in the next couple days after work. Nice chatting everyone. Cheers.
So what if I think being 200 pounds with under 10% body fat is healthier, and will give me more energy, than being an emaciated vegan? Unless I can get there as a vegan. Would I have to spend every waking hour cycling between working out and eating legumes? No, I'm gonna eat some freaking beef, and some freaking eggs. I'll be healthier for it and my arteries will be far from clogged.
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On September 21 2012 16:07 CatfooD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 15:55 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On September 21 2012 15:41 CatfooD wrote:On September 21 2012 15:31 phiinix wrote:On September 21 2012 06:14 kingcoyote wrote:On September 21 2012 06:10 ImAbstracT wrote:
You can literally eat all the fruits, veggies, nuts, and plant based foods you want without worrying about being overweight.
What? You could sit on your couch all day and eat nothing but potato chips and drink soda and beer and have a perfectly vegan diet and be a lardass. I did it. I've been vegetarian my entire life and ended up at 220 lbs at 5'11' before I dropped back down to 170. Not eating animal products doesn't magically erase Calories from oils, sugar and alcohol. Damn teach me. You're an inch taller and 10 pounds off from being twice my weight. In other news, this topic is quite interesting. In more than one scenario it could turn into a very philosophical debate of evolution, since in a survival of the fittest we do what we want to or something? I tried being vegan for a week and it definitely wasn't fun. Vegetarian I can do. Vegan seems like far too much work for not enough satisfaction. Don't get turned off too easily. It is a lifestyle that takes a lot of planning and consideration if you are not ready for it. I have been doing this for 2 years now, and I still make significant changes to the food I eat, how I shop, when food is ripe to eat, how to plan for future meals, what to do if I am going to be away from home for most of the day, etc. We spend our entire lives living one way, but then all of a sudden we want to change that lifestyle overnight and get good results. If we are used to waking up in the morning and eating cereal or pancakes and eggs, then go to a sandwich place for lunch, then come home for some kind of family meal for dinner or go out to eat again, it will be hard to supplement a vegan diet for that lifestyle unless you know how to prepare and plan to compensate and/or change your lifestyle. It also takes your body months to reestablish itself to your changing diet if you persist with it. My father cannot eat a banana or an apple for instance, because he has spent so many decades eating hamburgers, hotdogs, frozen TV diners, and boxes of twinkies and oreos that his body has gotten used to the type of food he consumes and how to digest it best. You need to give your body sufficient time to adapt to the changes you are making to your body. Think about drinking for the first time or two or three -- you don't want to have a half a dozen shots of hard liquor your first times drinking until you get used to its effects and how your body deals with it. Do you think if you added salmon and organic eggs to your diet it would be less healthy? I'm just curious if you think there is an actual inherent health benefit to being vegan. Hmmm, it's difficult to say. I am not any expert by any means, and I am still learning things every day. I am mainly going off of my own testimony, research, and experiences. I eat about 97% vegan or so, but I just tell people I am vegan to make it easier to understand, and then I can explain later if it gets down to it. Every so often I will do something like eat a small piece of grilled fish, or a cup of Greek organic non-fat yogurt or ... something like those things. If I could give any advise towards that idea, I would say this: Do what you can to eat the most organic firstly, and if you buy fish make sure it is wild caught and not farmed. Fish has a lot of fats and cholesterol in it just like red meat, but it is a lot easier to digest and has healthy omega-3 fatty acids in it that red meat doesn't have. Eggs I just wouldn't eat at all, because when you pass that thick, greasy egg yolk through your arteries, it clogs them up just like butter does. And then we put added salt on the eggs afterwards so we can shrink and clog our arteries at the same time, heh. Wild caught fish is the best type of meat I could suggest eating. All of the animal biproducts are really high in saturated fats and cholesterols though -- butter, milk, yogurt, eggs, and cheese. If you are concerned about your consumption rates, just start by trying to eat meats and dairy products half as often, then half as often again a few weeks later. Doing things this way takes a longer time to notice changes in your body, since you aren't cutting a lot of the problems out completely, and you are doing it over a long period of time. I've got to get to bed unfortunately, but I am glad I found this topic today and hope to be back in the next couple days after work. Nice chatting everyone. Cheers.
Although it is true fish contains cholesterol, fish has an incredibly low amount of saturated fat that is required to actually get the cholesterol to form in the body. This is what separates red meat from fish.
Also the amount of cholesterol you do gain from eating the right amount of red meat/fish isn't that much. The only time high cholesterol diets become an issue is when you eat way more than your daily recommended. The funny thing is, people often give cholesterol a bad name, but in reality it's the saturated fats that get to you because it allows the cholesterol you eat form into cholesterol in your body. The body creates cholesterol on its own, I think it's something around 2000 mg a day, adding an extra 300 mg a day isn't going to make that much of a difference.
The thing I really don't like about vegan arguments is that they take stereotypical arguments about red meat and it's effect on health and blow it way out of proportion. I would rate them next to Apple vs PC users...
Well here is a fun message for you, Kombucha Tea which is a Vegan drink can cause cancer when drunk in excessive amounts. Carrots can turn the recipient orange if eaten to much. Star Fruit can cause kidney failure if eaten in excess.
The only reason why red meat is considered bad is because it tastes so much better than vegan food. Thus much more people eat the stuff and eat it in much larger quantities. If eaten in moderation (The exact same philosophy Vegans follow) then you will be fine, in fact most likely overall healthier than any vegan.
Also don't believe everything you read on the internet about Vegans being healthier. I've read lots of documents trying to portray Vegans as being a bad thing and a good thing. The same way I have read people saying that red meat is bad for you but also people saying it's good for you.
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On September 21 2012 16:10 StayPhrosty wrote:
there seems to be several actively posing vegans ITT, so I would love for somebody to talk with about this. I have considered going vegan, or ketogenic, for a little while now, but being a university student means I'm totally strapped for cash, and honestly I'm not in a position to make a total lifestyle change like that right now. I honestly really dislike the current industrial food system, but right now I know my impact on it (should i choose to go vegan) would not matter much, and I would rather wait until I'm in a position (socially and economically) to make a really big dent, which I would very much like to do.
Something I would really like to hear about though (and this may differ from person to person) would be, if I were to find a local source of ethically treated animals (free range, taken care of properly, euthanized ethically, not force fed or abused etc.) would you still consider eating them unethical? I mean, I honestly need to do more research, but should it not be possible to form a sustainable way of eating meat/meat products, (i think i could handle reducing my meat consumption in general, and also paying more for properly treated animals)?
I do see dietary benefits to a vegan diet, but I also see benefits to many other diets as well. Heck, even just eating how I do already while slowly incorporating healthier things like whole grains and fewer processed foods seems like an option. The trouble I constantly run into whenever I look into this stuff is that everybody seems to be in 1 of 2 camps. 1- "OUR OPTION IS THE BEST. THERE IS NOTHING ELSE. WE ARE THE HEALTHIEST, BESTEST, NOTHING TO LOSE SYSTEM, DISREGARD ALL OTHER SYSTEMS WHO SAY THE EXACT SAME THING ABOUT THEMSELVES". or 2- "yeah uuuh, i do exactly this, and here is an overly complicated single meal, but you can do similar things. if you need more than this single healthy thing then just look around, theres lots of info on the internet. everybody is kind of right and you just sort of, eat 'healthy' and you'll be fine. oh and by the way everything you think is healthy actually isnt. yeah uuh, heres some more generic 'pro-active' buzz words for you."
I'm REALLY desperate for a proper source of information. there are very few places I've seen that actually acknowledge other diets/systems, and everybody seems to just want to sell you their product and then take off with the cash and leave you in the dust. It seems extremely difficult to count every single calorie and nutrient and vitamin I'm getting, but when I don't I just sort of feel a little guilty about 'everything' that I eat because somewhere somebody has said that everything is terrible and everything in moderation and only eat this blah blah blah... I try to just not even buy blatantly unhealthy things, but then I go hear about how the soy sauce I use every day is terribly high in sodium, so I buy low sodium soy sauce. Then I see 'low fat ranch dressing' and i think 'great!' and afterwards I read about how not all fat is unhealthy and how all these products just hide behind artificial sweeteners or whatever. Ugh. that turned into a rant but whatever, it took too long I'm not deleting it lol. anyways the thing i think I was trying to get at was that I kind of understand the benefits to a lot of raw and organic vegetables/fruits etc, but it seems hard to distinguish what I should actually eat, seeing as how nobody seems to acknowledge how to actually incorporate these various healthy things into your lifestyle.
I am a vegetarian and not vegan, but I hope I can still be somewhat useful. Regarding whether or not you want to make such a decision, it really comes down to your motivation. You do make a very good point though, that it takes time to change a habit (especially one as heavily entrenched as our eating habits), and that if you want to make a change, it's better sooner than later. Worse case scenario, you can always go back to eating meat if necessary.
When it comes to eating animals, it really depends on your own motivation for going vegan/vegetarian. One reason I don't eat meat is because of my problems with the industrial meat system, and if that's where you're primarily coming from, then yes, ethically treated animals would be less problematic to eat. I think it's definitely possible to eat meat in a more sustainable way, though it would certainly require a massive reduction in volume. In that sense, there's nothing necessarily wrong with eating meat.
However, I'd prefer not killing them at all if I can, because less pain is still worse than no pain, so in that sense I would still consider it unethical, based on *my own* beliefs and rationale for going vegetarian. If one day I'm in a place with little to none fruits and vegetables, I would be willing to eat meat, and I would be perfectly fine with it. I've just never been put in a situation where it's a necessity, rather than a conscious choice. So really, this one's up to you. I will note that the transition to a vegan diet is difficult for most people, and many prefer to slowly reduce their meat intake rather than trying to do it all at once, and in that sense I would prefer ethically treated animals over factory farming, yes.
You really have to understand your body - no one can say for sure what's the best for you. Certainly, everyone likes to think that they have the right approach and the best diet. I have no guarantee that my beliefs are *necessarily* the only way, and I only recommend it to those who are genuinely curious, like you. If someone asks, or the proper opportunity arises, I will gladly share my beliefs, but I have no interest in demonizing those who do choose to continue eating meat.
Arguably, TL isn't a proper source of information. Everyone here is mostly going off of what they know personally or anecdotally, so make of that what you will. It's true that there's a lot of information overload nowadays, which is why I emphasized knowing your body, and really paying attention to it to better understand how it processes different foods. In general, I think it's a good approach to be careful about anything that is sold to be "too easy", like no sugar, or low fat dressing, because in general these types of products use something else (potentially worse) to make up for it. I can give you some more specific advice if you're curious about anything in particular.
At the very least though, I think you're on the right track increasing your raw and organic vegetable/fruit intake. If you've been eating dairy and eggs all your life, you can try slowly cutting back on one or the other (simultaneously if you wish) and see what affect that has before you decide what your next step is.
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On September 21 2012 16:14 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 16:07 CatfooD wrote:
Fish has a lot of fats and cholesterol in it just like red meat, but it is a lot easier to digest and has healthy omega-3 fatty acids in it that red meat doesn't have. Naturally fed animals contain omega-3 fatty acids. For example, beef from grass fed cows contain an omega3-omega6 ratio that's about 1:2. A lot of the information that people throw around in nutrient debates are usually lies, or based on decades old research by companies with much to gain from the results. People (on both sides) need to do more research.
there it is again. 'everybody else is lies. im right. do more research.' i ask you, FROM WHERE?!?!?!? seriously, i;m looking at medical fucking journals right now and several of them have contested what i though to be established facts about nutrition. honestly i have heard from freaking EVERYWHERE that fish is healthier than red meat. now people are discussing how healthy eggs are. EVERYBODY says take the yolk out of the egg. there is 'eggwhite only' shit all over the place, and in the meantime im hearing that all eggs are terrible for you and, simultaneously, "cholesterol isnt as bad as you think". seriously. what. the. fuck.
edit- to the vegetarian - Thanks for reading my above post, I would actually really like some info on just cooking healthier. i.e. replacing using so much butter and salt and soy sauce when i cook my meals. also, a more specific question relevant to me currently would be are frozen vegetables particularly unhealthy? From what I understand you do get a lot more nutrients out of fresh (raw, even) vegetables, but aside from losing some of the possible nutrients, is there anything else particularly negative added to them or something?
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I always find myself wondering this when vegans pop up on TL or IRL. Can someone explain to me why killing animals is wrong?
(A follow up question: let's grant for the sake of argument that factory farming is wrong. How does it follow that I ought to avoid eating animal products entirely?)
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I might go vegeterian one day. But giving up milk is something I can't see myself doing.
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On September 21 2012 16:10 StayPhrosty wrote:
there seems to be several actively posing vegans ITT, so I would love for somebody to talk with about this. I have considered going vegan, or ketogenic, for a little while now, but being a university student means I'm totally strapped for cash, and honestly I'm not in a position to make a total lifestyle change like that right now. I honestly really dislike the current industrial food system, but right now I know my impact on it (should i choose to go vegan) would not matter much, and I would rather wait until I'm in a position (socially and economically) to make a really big dent, which I would very much like to do.
Something I would really like to hear about though (and this may differ from person to person) would be, if I were to find a local source of ethically treated animals (free range, taken care of properly, euthanized ethically, not force fed or abused etc.) would you still consider eating them unethical? I mean, I honestly need to do more research, but should it not be possible to form a sustainable way of eating meat/meat products, (i think i could handle reducing my meat consumption in general, and also paying more for properly treated animals)?
I do see dietary benefits to a vegan diet, but I also see benefits to many other diets as well. Heck, even just eating how I do already while slowly incorporating healthier things like whole grains and fewer processed foods seems like an option. The trouble I constantly run into whenever I look into this stuff is that everybody seems to be in 1 of 2 camps. 1- "OUR OPTION IS THE BEST. THERE IS NOTHING ELSE. WE ARE THE HEALTHIEST, BESTEST, NOTHING TO LOSE SYSTEM, DISREGARD ALL OTHER SYSTEMS WHO SAY THE EXACT SAME THING ABOUT THEMSELVES". or 2- "yeah uuuh, i do exactly this, and here is an overly complicated single meal, but you can do similar things. if you need more than this single healthy thing then just look around, theres lots of info on the internet. everybody is kind of right and you just sort of, eat 'healthy' and you'll be fine. oh and by the way everything you think is healthy actually isnt. yeah uuh, heres some more generic 'pro-active' buzz words for you."
I'm REALLY desperate for a proper source of information. there are very few places I've seen that actually acknowledge other diets/systems, and everybody seems to just want to sell you their product and then take off with the cash and leave you in the dust. It seems extremely difficult to count every single calorie and nutrient and vitamin I'm getting, but when I don't I just sort of feel a little guilty about 'everything' that I eat because somewhere somebody has said that everything is terrible and everything in moderation and only eat this blah blah blah... I try to just not even buy blatantly unhealthy things, but then I go hear about how the soy sauce I use every day is terribly high in sodium, so I buy low sodium soy sauce. Then I see 'low fat ranch dressing' and i think 'great!' and afterwards I read about how not all fat is unhealthy and how all these products just hide behind artificial sweeteners or whatever. Ugh. that turned into a rant but whatever, it took too long I'm not deleting it lol. anyways the thing i think I was trying to get at was that I kind of understand the benefits to a lot of raw and organic vegetables/fruits etc, but it seems hard to distinguish what I should actually eat, seeing as how nobody seems to acknowledge how to actually incorporate these various healthy things into your lifestyle.
If you want objectivity then test your blood. Try things, things you like, and then test. If it says you're healthy, then that's all there is to it. I guarantee you can get good results with both vegan and non-vegan diets.
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On September 21 2012 16:26 StayPhrosty wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 16:14 lichter wrote:On September 21 2012 16:07 CatfooD wrote:
Fish has a lot of fats and cholesterol in it just like red meat, but it is a lot easier to digest and has healthy omega-3 fatty acids in it that red meat doesn't have. Naturally fed animals contain omega-3 fatty acids. For example, beef from grass fed cows contain an omega3-omega6 ratio that's about 1:2. A lot of the information that people throw around in nutrient debates are usually lies, or based on decades old research by companies with much to gain from the results. People (on both sides) need to do more research. there it is again. 'everybody else is lies. im right. do more research.' i ask you, FROM WHERE?!?!?!? seriously, i;m looking at medical fucking journals right now and several of them have contested what i though to be established facts about nutrition. honestly i have heard from freaking EVERYWHERE that fish is healthier than red meat. now people are discussing how healthy eggs are. EVERYBODY says take the yolk out of the egg. there is 'eggwhite only' shit all over the place, and in the meantime im hearing that all eggs are terrible for you and, simultaneously, "cholesterol isnt as bad as you think". seriously. what. the. fuck. edit- to the vegetarian - Thanks for reading my above post, I would actually really like some info on just cooking healthier. i.e. replacing using so much butter and salt and soy sauce when i cook my meals. also, a more specific question relevant to me currently would be are frozen vegetables particularly unhealthy? From what I understand you do get a lot more nutrients out of fresh (raw, even) vegetables, but aside from losing some of the possible nutrients, is there anything else particularly negative added to them or something?
Frozen vegetables are better because they can be picked at optimal ripeness and then frozen. Fresh vegetables have to be picked a few days early so they don't spoil on the way to the store. The act of freezing something doesn't change its nutritional content at all. Frozen vegetables are simply washed, cut up, and quickly frozen.
Canned vegetables are not that great because they have to be boiled before they can be safely canned.
Boiling vegetables is probably the least effective way to cook them. Notice how the water will be colored when you're done. There's a fair bit of nutrition in that water. Add it to your potatoes or something instead of tossing it. The best way is to eat them fresh or lightly steamed.
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On September 21 2012 16:30 HULKAMANIA wrote:
I always find myself wondering this when vegans pop up on TL or IRL. Can someone explain to me why killing animals is wrong?
(A follow up question: let's grant for the sake of argument that factory farming is wrong. How does it follow that I ought to avoid eating animal products entirely?)
If i remember correctly, this has been previously discussed, but I'll try to add what I got out of it.
Assuming you already understand the terrible conditions of animals in factory farms, it should be quite obvious that these methods are unethical and inhumane. To have an animal be tortured and put through extreme agony for most of it's life just for lower prices seems quite wrong to a lot of people.
This being said, assuming perfect conditions I understand that a lot of vegans/vegetarians would rather not kill an animal just to be eaten when they have the choice of just eating fruits/veggies/legumes/etc. instead. I would think the idea of raising a living being just for the purpose of eating it is not something they agree with. To me personally I would not say such a thing is wrong, but I can still see a benefit to changing your lifestyle so that you truly understand what nutrients goes into and out of your body to maintain weight, health, etc. Choosing one style or diet over another I think is perhaps a much more nuanced debate, and one that I think needs more research.
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EPT
