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As someone who has studied this topic in depth I have a few points to add
-Ethically do as you please, it is your life
-Optimal nutrition has no regard for ethics.
-A lot of vegetarians/vegans actually don't eat many vegetables at all they are eating processed foods and grains- this is obviously unhelathy.
-Eating meat is always a easier way to get many of the nutrients you need as the forms are more bioavailable and concentrated. Let the animal get the nutrients from the their food then you get the nutrients from them. Example B-carotene and retinol (vitamin A), Heme-iron and non heme iron, K1 and K2.
-Eating any diet free from processed foods is going to be better than SAD. Processing of foods IS the problem.
-Most of the anti-meat studies are severely flawed
In conclusion for good health
Eat healthy animals, Eat healthy plants, Move about lots and Get plenty of sleep. Avoid toxic things.
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On September 21 2012 13:50 Funnytoss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 13:31 GoTuNk! wrote:
I don't mind people not eating meat for ethical or religious reasons (though I don't share them) but spreading lies about nutrition is something vegans should abstain from doing.
The leading cause of both heart deseases and cancer are sendentarism, high processed foods and high-fructose corn syrup. If you believe cheetos are healthier than meat, you are not very smart.
Animal meat (cow beef) has 0 transfat, more mono unsaturated fat than saturated fat, tons of bioavailable protein, and HEALTHY cholesterol and saturated fat required to produce testosterone, and therefore be a healthy man. Not to mention a shitload of vitamins and minerals.
Also humans evolved to eat meat, and that virtually any succesful athlete in the world bases his diet around MEAT, eggs and veggies. We have the intestine lenght and gut of meat eaters, and its actually how wolves and humans developed symbiosis; cause they wanted to eat the same shit.
I agree with you that junk foods are even less healthy than meat. I would disagree that you absolutely NEED meat to be a healthy man, as myself and many others are living proof otherwise. I do have some objections to your last assertion, however: We do not actually have (proportionally) the same intestine length and gut of meat eaters. Carnivores generally have intestinal tracts that are roughly 3-6 times their body length, while herbivores have longer ones, up to 10-12 times body length. Ours is quite long, and much closer to the herbivore ratio. In addition, the level of our stomach acid isn't even close to that of most carnivores. Our intestines are not smooth, like those of carnivores - rather, ours are windy, so plant foods pass through slowly in order for the body to absorb the highest amount of nutrition. If you look at our lack of claws and ideally shaped teeth, that is another point. We don't have claws or sharp front teeth needed to kill and subdue prey, and our teeth are primarily flat molars good for chewing.
Actually its more like human intestines are half length between hervibores and meat eaters
"Like the hard-core carnivores, we have fairly simple digestive systems well suited to the consumption of animal protein, which breaks down quickly. Contrary to what your magazine article says, the human small intestine, at 23 feet, is a little under eight times body length (assuming a mouth-to-anus "body length" of three feet). This is about midway between cats (three times body length), dogs (3-1/2 times), and other well-known meat eaters on the one hand and plant eaters such as cattle (20 to 1) and horses (12 to 1) on the other. This tends to support the idea that we are omnivores.".
However this argument fails to include the massive importance of gut size. Hervibores such as gorillas, cows, elephants (you name it) have huge guts on which veggies fermentate (aka rot and are digested by bacteria) so they can absorb cellulose in the form of bacteria poop. Humans can't even begin to process celulose so making and argument that they are meant to eat veggies as their main source of energy is not logically sound.
Humans don't have sharp claws or require huge teeth because we never needed them. We could also say that because our mouth doesnt move sideways like most vegetarians it isn't made for eating veggies, so its a moot argument at best.
"Neanderthals unequivocally ate a diet that consisted of virtually nothing but meat- 10000-12000 calories of it a day. They also lacked sharp teeth and claws, but guess what? They didn't need them, because THEY HAD STONE TOOLS. In fact, hominids have been using tools for over 2 million years- plenty of time for them to develop the requisite biology for the digestion of meat. (Science Daily) Neanderthals had even bigger brains than modern humans, which is important due to the fact that their diet was so heavily meat-based, and the metabolic requirements of larger brains would necessitate calorically-dense food consumption, which means they had to eat meat, or they'd fucking die"(EHD, p. 167-168)
I don't think there is an all one definition of healthiness. What I can tell you is that to be a successfull athlete you need anywhere between 5k-12k calories a day (or even more), lots of protein and high levels of testosterone (which are correlated with cholesterol and saturated fat consumption).
Could you get all that with whey shakes, eggs and raw milk and test to the vein? Maybe, but I know its not pleasent to do and a lot unhealthier than just eating the meat.
As I said before, I have no problem with people not eating meat for religious/moral reasons (I love my pet), but humans thrive in strength and overall healthiness from meat consuption, and most likely became humans in the first place (got bigger brains) because they started eating meat.
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On September 21 2012 13:31 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 13:12 CatfooD wrote:On September 21 2012 12:13 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 12:01 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:51 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:43 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:
[quote]
I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me.
We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this: 1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being. 2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals. 3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality. The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live. The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. I stunned and fed a Preying Mantis 3 stink bugs about a week ago. I found both outside and didn't actually kill any of the bugs myself. Does that make me an accomplice to murder or is insects eating other insects not imoral? While I appreciate that you try to treat me as your conscience: I don't know. Personally I love watching a Preying Mantis hunt and eat. I also have the same feeling for Lions. Seeing how nature works in an almost undisturbed way is amazing, it's checks and balances. I think I would also love to see humans hunt their food together. What's over the top for me is taking a bunch of animals, putting them into a small place, causing them immense pain from birth to slaughter and all that to produce something we don't need in the first place. If there's no alternative, fine, go ahead. But they are. We have the brain to explore them and the empathy to feel with other living beings. We can make the conscious thought chain of "I don't want to be treated like that" -> "I don't want to see others being treated like that". Not extending the same privilege to another species? Why the hell not? I don't want a stronger and more intelligent species to show up and raise me as cattle either. On September 21 2012 11:41 Olinim wrote:On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:On September 21 2012 11:08 Lombard wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2012 10:58 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:54 Lombard wrote:On September 21 2012 10:39 ImAbstracT wrote:On September 21 2012 10:31 SupLilSon wrote:
Have any of the Vegans here taken a second to consider than the Vegan lifestyle is really only feasible if you live in a first world country? The majority of the world doesn't have convenient access to a huge variety of dietary supplements and unique foods such as legumes.
The OP also completely ignored (or didnt even realize) the fact that Fatty Acids and Amino Acids are completely different compounds. Still never acknowledged that a Vegan diet doesnt provide some essential FA...
Furthermore, what is the moral or ethical justification for Veganism if you discount the meat industry's practices? There are many ways to get free range meat which isnt the product of cruel animal mistreatment. It's probably less compromising to the average diet than Veganism is and most likely is more healthy. Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't meat consumption in Asian countries very slim until fairly recently? Also, here is a list of plants based ways to get Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 family) Vegetables Fruits Nuts Grains Seeds Good sources: Oils made from: Safflower Sunflower Corn Soya Evening primrose Pumpkin Wheatgerm. Alpha-Linolenic Acid (Omega 3 family) (Please note - fish is not the only source of omega 3 acids.). Flaxseeds (linseeds) Mustard seeds Hemp seeds Walnut oil Green leafy vegetables Grains Spirulina Good sources Oils made from: Linseed (flaxseeds) Rapeseed (canola) Hemp seeds If you live in a third world country, and cant even read, your cute little list means nothing. [quote] That bolded word is the problem, it implies a faith based position. From reading this thread I get the impression that it's like discussing atheism/religion, noone will move their position and facts will be dimissed, like I did just now. The discussion is pointless. I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me. We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice. I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated? It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead. What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species). Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P So which is it? In your second paragraph you say it's completely a personal choice and if they're fine with it go ahead. Then in the very next paragraph you say that it should make them feel guilty. I am also sick of people in this thread equating animals to humans. I said it annoys the crap out of me and that I don't understand how to not feel guilty. I can find neither a logical nor an emotional argument to not feel guilty about it. If you can find either, please tell me about it. I actually completely agree with you. The way the meat industry generally works is both immoral and unhealthy. A lot of the reason meat consumption has been tied to increased chance of diseases and colon cancer is because of the way it is processed. The fact is if you eat good quality, free range meat it is not unhealthy in moderate portions. I eat a lot of meat and I have been trying cut down. Completely agree. I don't see a big difference between someone aiming to consume good quality meat once a week and someone being completely vegan or vegetarian (even though most of those would prolly throw rocks at me for that statement =P). That's an attitude which showcases that someone thought about the whole issue and made a conscious decision. "I eat meat because it's here and I like it and that's all now leave me alone" is an attitude I don't want to tolerate. It showcases the absolute worst that humanity has to offer. Then again, that's not about eating meat in general anymore as I said earlier. That's about ignorance and a low intellect and probably applies to most other subjects as well. The quality of the meat and dairy products you consume certainly has a huuuge impact on health, yes. Eating prime quality, organic meats and cheeses for instance is a lot healthier than eating McDonald's and hotdogs in which you consume massive quantities of preservatives, chemicals, genetically modified products, etc. However, in general, the nature of meat and dairy is not healthy for our bodies to process, despite being organic and prime quality or not. Meat and dairy products have the highest contents of fats, bad cholesterol, saturated fats, and acidic animal-based protein of any other food we consume. They are direct contributors to the #1 and #2 leading killers in the US -- heart disease and numerous cancers. They also cause many other chronic illnesses like coronary heart disease, diabetes, osteoporosis, etc If we abstain from consuming these foods, we can remove our risk of nearly ever having these major illnesses and diseases in our lives. I don't mind people not eating meat for ethical or religious reasons (though I don't share them) but spreading lies about nutrition is something vegans should abstain from doing. The leading cause of both heart deseases and cancer are sendentarism, high processed foods and high-fructose corn syrup. If you believe cheetos are healthier than meat, you are not very smart. Animal meat (cow beef) has 0 transfat, more mono unsaturated fat than saturated fat, tons of bioavailable protein, and HEALTHY cholesterol and saturated fat required to produce testosterone, and therefore be a healthy man. Not to mention a shitload of vitamins and minerals. Also humans evolved to eat meat, and that virtually any succesful athlete in the world bases his diet around MEAT, eggs and veggies. We have the intestine lenght and gut of meat eaters, and its actually how wolves and humans developed symbiosis; cause they wanted to eat the same shit.
I never said that eating cheetos or drinking soda is healthier or unhealthier than meat. People don't realize that the word vegan doesn't mean healthy. Like I mentioned in a previous post, vegan just means avoiding the consumption of any animal product. Eating cheetos, pepsi, oreos and all of that is 100% vegan, but provide much, much less nutrition than eating meat and dairy, just like you said. Eating vegan candy garbage and eating fruits/vegetables/grains are two totally different stories, but they both happen to technically be vegan.
Transfat isn't the only type of fat that is unhealthy. Trans fat happens to be the absolute worst kind of fat that we could possibly consume, but because a cow doesn't have any of it doesn't mean that a cow also doesn't have one of the highest saturated fat and cholesterol contents of any food.
Any cholesterol that you consume in the diet is unhealthy. Our bodies makes cholesterol, plenty for our bodies' needs, and any external source of cholesterol needs to be absorbed and eliminated through the liver that doesn't get clogged in our arteries already.
Animal protein has one good quality about it in my opinion -- it contains more of all of the essential amino acids than plant products have. However, animal protein is extremely acidic and causes our body to go into a process called leukocytosis that treats the protein like an infection or bacteria. The blood gets flooded with white blood cells and attacks it to neutralize the acidity.
When you digest highly acidic animal protein, your body releases lots of toxic wastes like urea and amonia that are detrimental to your body as these wastes go through your kidneys. Animal protein has a huge content of sulfur, which washes through the bones and disolves calcium out of your bones as it is being digested. Animal protein is also the most concentrated type of protein on the planet, so you get a huge surge of this every time you eat meat or dairy.
Because the high acidity of this protein dissolves calcium out of your bones, you see the highest cases of osteoporosis (osteo - bone, porosis - porous (porous bones)) in countries that have the highest animal protein consumption rates. Osteoporosis barely even exists in countries like Thailand and China for instance, but they are huge problems for us in America.
Animal protein also has no fiber content in it, so this highly concentrated, acidic protein absorbs very rapidly into your body, instead of happening slowly over several hours paired with fiber as it would with nuts and grains for instance -- plant protein is much gentler in the body because of this.
I'll have to get to your post about us evolving to eat meat and high-performance athletes eating huge quantities of meat later.
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On September 21 2012 14:15 CatfooD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 13:31 GoTuNk! wrote:On September 21 2012 13:12 CatfooD wrote:On September 21 2012 12:13 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 12:01 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:51 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:43 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:On September 21 2012 11:23 r.Evo wrote:
[quote]
Personally I love the metaphors used by Milan Kundera on this matter a lot. Especially considering that this whole thing isn't a huge topic in his books. One of his major chain of thoughts goes like this:
1) You can only truely see the character of a person if he or she is in total control of another living being.
2) There is nothing we are more in control of than our pets, our cattle, random animals we encounter. We have total and complete power over those animals.
3) Considering how we treat those with the complete power (and responsibility) humanity as a whole is failing on a very major scale when it comes to empathy and morality.
The bottom line is that being in total control over another human being and treating them horribly wrong isn't much different from being in total control over an animal and treating them horribly wrong. Personally I'm fine with everyone who could also slaughter their own food, but no one I know who actually DOES that dares to call it ethically, morally or empathically "right" to take another living beings live.
The only major point people tend to disagree on is where to draw the exact line. However in that case calling eating dogs "unmoral" but eating a pig during lunch is nothing more but hypocrisy. this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. I stunned and fed a Preying Mantis 3 stink bugs about a week ago. I found both outside and didn't actually kill any of the bugs myself. Does that make me an accomplice to murder or is insects eating other insects not imoral? While I appreciate that you try to treat me as your conscience: I don't know. Personally I love watching a Preying Mantis hunt and eat. I also have the same feeling for Lions. Seeing how nature works in an almost undisturbed way is amazing, it's checks and balances. I think I would also love to see humans hunt their food together. What's over the top for me is taking a bunch of animals, putting them into a small place, causing them immense pain from birth to slaughter and all that to produce something we don't need in the first place. If there's no alternative, fine, go ahead. But they are. We have the brain to explore them and the empathy to feel with other living beings. We can make the conscious thought chain of "I don't want to be treated like that" -> "I don't want to see others being treated like that". Not extending the same privilege to another species? Why the hell not? I don't want a stronger and more intelligent species to show up and raise me as cattle either. On September 21 2012 11:41 Olinim wrote:On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:On September 21 2012 11:11 BlueBird. wrote:
[quote]
I have had very very good discussions about veganism with people that aren't vegans in the past, It's when the conversation is on the internet when it comes down to this. There have been several threads about this on TL, and all of them have looked like this. I disagree that it's preaching, and I disagree it's faith based, It's more logic based for myself. Just look at the pig, super smart animals, smarter then dogs, and yet we eat them. Yet some meat eaters defend not eating dog, because they are smart, yet other cultures eat dog. The logic does not follow for me.
We are animals, they are animals, we shouldn't slaughter animals. I don't believe we should support human suffering and slavery, so i don't support animal suffering and slavery. I don't believe rape is ok, so i don't support the dairy industry. What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice. I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated? It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead. What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species). Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P So which is it? In your second paragraph you say it's completely a personal choice and if they're fine with it go ahead. Then in the very next paragraph you say that it should make them feel guilty. I am also sick of people in this thread equating animals to humans. I said it annoys the crap out of me and that I don't understand how to not feel guilty. I can find neither a logical nor an emotional argument to not feel guilty about it. If you can find either, please tell me about it. I actually completely agree with you. The way the meat industry generally works is both immoral and unhealthy. A lot of the reason meat consumption has been tied to increased chance of diseases and colon cancer is because of the way it is processed. The fact is if you eat good quality, free range meat it is not unhealthy in moderate portions. I eat a lot of meat and I have been trying cut down. Completely agree. I don't see a big difference between someone aiming to consume good quality meat once a week and someone being completely vegan or vegetarian (even though most of those would prolly throw rocks at me for that statement =P). That's an attitude which showcases that someone thought about the whole issue and made a conscious decision. "I eat meat because it's here and I like it and that's all now leave me alone" is an attitude I don't want to tolerate. It showcases the absolute worst that humanity has to offer. Then again, that's not about eating meat in general anymore as I said earlier. That's about ignorance and a low intellect and probably applies to most other subjects as well. The quality of the meat and dairy products you consume certainly has a huuuge impact on health, yes. Eating prime quality, organic meats and cheeses for instance is a lot healthier than eating McDonald's and hotdogs in which you consume massive quantities of preservatives, chemicals, genetically modified products, etc. However, in general, the nature of meat and dairy is not healthy for our bodies to process, despite being organic and prime quality or not. Meat and dairy products have the highest contents of fats, bad cholesterol, saturated fats, and acidic animal-based protein of any other food we consume. They are direct contributors to the #1 and #2 leading killers in the US -- heart disease and numerous cancers. They also cause many other chronic illnesses like coronary heart disease, diabetes, osteoporosis, etc If we abstain from consuming these foods, we can remove our risk of nearly ever having these major illnesses and diseases in our lives. I don't mind people not eating meat for ethical or religious reasons (though I don't share them) but spreading lies about nutrition is something vegans should abstain from doing. The leading cause of both heart deseases and cancer are sendentarism, high processed foods and high-fructose corn syrup. If you believe cheetos are healthier than meat, you are not very smart. Animal meat (cow beef) has 0 transfat, more mono unsaturated fat than saturated fat, tons of bioavailable protein, and HEALTHY cholesterol and saturated fat required to produce testosterone, and therefore be a healthy man. Not to mention a shitload of vitamins and minerals. Also humans evolved to eat meat, and that virtually any succesful athlete in the world bases his diet around MEAT, eggs and veggies. We have the intestine lenght and gut of meat eaters, and its actually how wolves and humans developed symbiosis; cause they wanted to eat the same shit. I never said that eating cheetos or drinking soda is healthier or unhealthier than meat. People don't realize that the word vegan doesn't mean healthy. Like I mentioned in a previous post, vegan just means avoiding the consumption of any animal product. Eating cheetos, pepsi, oreos and all of that is 100% vegan, but provide much, much less nutrition than eating meat and dairy, just like you said. Eating vegan candy garbage and eating fruits/vegetables/grains are two totally different stories, but they both happen to technically be vegan. Transfat isn't the only type of fat that is unhealthy. Trans fat happens to be the absolute worst kind of fat that we could possibly consume, but because a cow doesn't have any of it doesn't mean that a cow also doesn't have one of the highest saturated fat and cholesterol contents of any food. Any cholesterol that you consume in the diet is unhealthy. Our bodies makes cholesterol, plenty for our bodies' needs, and any external source of cholesterol needs to be absorbed and eliminated through the liver that doesn't get clogged in our arteries already. Animal protein has one good quality about it in my opinion -- it contains more of all of the essential amino acids than plant products have. However, animal protein is extremely acidic and causes our body to go into a process called leukocytosis that treats the protein like an infection or bacteria. The blood gets flooded with white blood cells and attacks it to neutralize the acidity. When you digest highly acidic animal protein, your body releases lots of toxic wastes like urea and amonia that are detrimental to your body as these wastes go through your kidneys. Animal protein has a huge content of sulfur, which washes through the bones and disolves calcium out of your bones as it is being digested. Animal protein is also the most concentrated type of protein on the planet, so you get a huge surge of this every time you eat meat or dairy. Because the high acidity of this protein dissolves calcium out of your bones, you see the highest cases of osteoporosis (osteo - bone, porosis - porous (porous bones)) in countries that have the highest animal protein consumption rates. Osteoporosis barely even exists in countries like Thailand and China for instance, but they are huge problems for us in America. Animal protein also has no fiber content in it, so this highly concentrated, acidic protein absorbs very rapidly into your body, instead of happening slowly over several hours paired with fiber as it would with nuts and grains for instance -- plant protein is much gentler in the body because of this. I'll have to get to your post about us evolving to eat meat and high-performance athletes eating huge quantities of meat later.
Source a reputable medical authority on this please.
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Honestly I love meat. I love to eat all kinds of vegan food too, but meat it's so delicious I couldn't care less if cows or pigs or whatever are treated with cruelty, there is no such thing as cruelty in nature, a lion wouldn't hesitate to kill a cow if it was hungry, why would I? that's what nature is all about. Now you can live your life without eating meat if you want, you can argue all you want but truth is you have a little lion inside that loves meat, you can deny that all you want, after all suggestion is a big thing, but the smell of meat makes your mouth salivate because you now it tastes so delicious and there is an evolutionary reason of why this happend, we are made to be like this. Vegan, then, is nothing but self-mutilation.
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I used to be a BIG meat lover, but one day I just couldn't do it anymore.
I made a personal choice not to eat animals anymore, despite how good they taste, it's just not something I can do with a clear conscience.
I have ZERO problems with whatever anybody else wants to eat.
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High grain/oils/salt is still 'vegan' but isn't going to make you feel good at all. High amounts of fresh fruit and vegetables is where it's at. Biggest challenge for beginners is learning to eat enough food (because you will be eating more calories) without relying on high fat sources.
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On September 21 2012 14:03 spacemonkeyy wrote:
-Ethically do as you please, it is your life
That is worded rather poorly or is just a really stupid statement. If you meant "ethically do as you please, so long as it only affects your life." then it would be much better. But as is, you are basically saying that because I have my own life and because I believe I should be able to slaughter everyone and everything, torture people for the hell of it, and take pisses on people's lawns, I can do that. Ethics are obviously a factor in this argument, you should not ignore it. Obviously people believe different things. But, even if people believe different things, there are more efficient and effective ways of getting what one wants and often people do not think far enough ahead.
Example:
Steve believes that eating meat is okay because humans are superior (intellectually) and because he is happier when he eats meat, he eats it.
Allen on the other hand believes it is not okay to eat meat because he, despite enjoying meat, does not think an animal's life is worth the small gain to happiness he gets from it.
The two both get happiness from it, but believe different things. Steve doesn't think that it matters if an animal dies because the animal basically can't do anything else. But, what significance does intellect have if you do not use it for anything but to be happy? He is just the same as the cow that he ate. They both want to live happily*. Allen, though, takes into consideration an animal's life because he believes the cow has just as much of a right to live as he, himself does. If Steve wants to keep with his argument, he would have to have a greater purpose in life, otherwise his argument for doing his actions are rather poor.
*animal happiness is a controversial topic, though I think overall, scientists believe most animals have similar feelings of "happiness" as humans. Do not quote me on this, this is just from recollection.
Sorry, I sure hope that wasn't too long of a post on only one small part of your post.
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On September 21 2012 14:18 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 14:15 CatfooD wrote:On September 21 2012 13:31 GoTuNk! wrote:On September 21 2012 13:12 CatfooD wrote:On September 21 2012 12:13 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 12:01 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:51 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:43 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:29 Forikorder wrote:
[quote]
this is the msot ridiculous thing ive ever heard
i squashed a bug today, i guess that means im a souless psycopath and a serial killer jsut waiting to happen and should go turn myself in
you cannot expect someone to ahve empathy for a different species because there a different species, we dont know anything about how they feel or think
if i slap a human i know how it hurts because i understand the pain hes having since im human and have felt taht pain
if i slap a cow for all i know he didnt feel it, erego i know its wrong to slap a human because it hurts but theres nothing wrong with slapping a cow
its rediculous to expect anyone to have feelings for something that they have nothing in common with, a cow is just an animal, its a food source its not human that means its OK to kill it and eat it because thats what nature is Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"? Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. I stunned and fed a Preying Mantis 3 stink bugs about a week ago. I found both outside and didn't actually kill any of the bugs myself. Does that make me an accomplice to murder or is insects eating other insects not imoral? While I appreciate that you try to treat me as your conscience: I don't know. Personally I love watching a Preying Mantis hunt and eat. I also have the same feeling for Lions. Seeing how nature works in an almost undisturbed way is amazing, it's checks and balances. I think I would also love to see humans hunt their food together. What's over the top for me is taking a bunch of animals, putting them into a small place, causing them immense pain from birth to slaughter and all that to produce something we don't need in the first place. If there's no alternative, fine, go ahead. But they are. We have the brain to explore them and the empathy to feel with other living beings. We can make the conscious thought chain of "I don't want to be treated like that" -> "I don't want to see others being treated like that". Not extending the same privilege to another species? Why the hell not? I don't want a stronger and more intelligent species to show up and raise me as cattle either. On September 21 2012 11:41 Olinim wrote:On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:26 Retgery wrote:
[quote]
What I'm hearing is that you are comparing eating meat to first degree murder in that it is morally wrong and humans should be severly punished in some way, but it's OK if we have no choice.
I can understand why you would feel our treatment is immoral, but how is it any more immoral than a lion killing zebra. But I don;t understand how drinking of dairy would be immoral, how is cows performing a natural function that is not harmful to the animal wrong. Is it simply because we keep them domesticated? It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows. I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead. What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species). Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P So which is it? In your second paragraph you say it's completely a personal choice and if they're fine with it go ahead. Then in the very next paragraph you say that it should make them feel guilty. I am also sick of people in this thread equating animals to humans. I said it annoys the crap out of me and that I don't understand how to not feel guilty. I can find neither a logical nor an emotional argument to not feel guilty about it. If you can find either, please tell me about it. I actually completely agree with you. The way the meat industry generally works is both immoral and unhealthy. A lot of the reason meat consumption has been tied to increased chance of diseases and colon cancer is because of the way it is processed. The fact is if you eat good quality, free range meat it is not unhealthy in moderate portions. I eat a lot of meat and I have been trying cut down. Completely agree. I don't see a big difference between someone aiming to consume good quality meat once a week and someone being completely vegan or vegetarian (even though most of those would prolly throw rocks at me for that statement =P). That's an attitude which showcases that someone thought about the whole issue and made a conscious decision. "I eat meat because it's here and I like it and that's all now leave me alone" is an attitude I don't want to tolerate. It showcases the absolute worst that humanity has to offer. Then again, that's not about eating meat in general anymore as I said earlier. That's about ignorance and a low intellect and probably applies to most other subjects as well. The quality of the meat and dairy products you consume certainly has a huuuge impact on health, yes. Eating prime quality, organic meats and cheeses for instance is a lot healthier than eating McDonald's and hotdogs in which you consume massive quantities of preservatives, chemicals, genetically modified products, etc. However, in general, the nature of meat and dairy is not healthy for our bodies to process, despite being organic and prime quality or not. Meat and dairy products have the highest contents of fats, bad cholesterol, saturated fats, and acidic animal-based protein of any other food we consume. They are direct contributors to the #1 and #2 leading killers in the US -- heart disease and numerous cancers. They also cause many other chronic illnesses like coronary heart disease, diabetes, osteoporosis, etc If we abstain from consuming these foods, we can remove our risk of nearly ever having these major illnesses and diseases in our lives. I don't mind people not eating meat for ethical or religious reasons (though I don't share them) but spreading lies about nutrition is something vegans should abstain from doing. The leading cause of both heart deseases and cancer are sendentarism, high processed foods and high-fructose corn syrup. If you believe cheetos are healthier than meat, you are not very smart. Animal meat (cow beef) has 0 transfat, more mono unsaturated fat than saturated fat, tons of bioavailable protein, and HEALTHY cholesterol and saturated fat required to produce testosterone, and therefore be a healthy man. Not to mention a shitload of vitamins and minerals. Also humans evolved to eat meat, and that virtually any succesful athlete in the world bases his diet around MEAT, eggs and veggies. We have the intestine lenght and gut of meat eaters, and its actually how wolves and humans developed symbiosis; cause they wanted to eat the same shit. I never said that eating cheetos or drinking soda is healthier or unhealthier than meat. People don't realize that the word vegan doesn't mean healthy. Like I mentioned in a previous post, vegan just means avoiding the consumption of any animal product. Eating cheetos, pepsi, oreos and all of that is 100% vegan, but provide much, much less nutrition than eating meat and dairy, just like you said. Eating vegan candy garbage and eating fruits/vegetables/grains are two totally different stories, but they both happen to technically be vegan. Transfat isn't the only type of fat that is unhealthy. Trans fat happens to be the absolute worst kind of fat that we could possibly consume, but because a cow doesn't have any of it doesn't mean that a cow also doesn't have one of the highest saturated fat and cholesterol contents of any food. Any cholesterol that you consume in the diet is unhealthy. Our bodies makes cholesterol, plenty for our bodies' needs, and any external source of cholesterol needs to be absorbed and eliminated through the liver that doesn't get clogged in our arteries already. Animal protein has one good quality about it in my opinion -- it contains more of all of the essential amino acids than plant products have. However, animal protein is extremely acidic and causes our body to go into a process called leukocytosis that treats the protein like an infection or bacteria. The blood gets flooded with white blood cells and attacks it to neutralize the acidity. When you digest highly acidic animal protein, your body releases lots of toxic wastes like urea and amonia that are detrimental to your body as these wastes go through your kidneys. Animal protein has a huge content of sulfur, which washes through the bones and disolves calcium out of your bones as it is being digested. Animal protein is also the most concentrated type of protein on the planet, so you get a huge surge of this every time you eat meat or dairy. Because the high acidity of this protein dissolves calcium out of your bones, you see the highest cases of osteoporosis (osteo - bone, porosis - porous (porous bones)) in countries that have the highest animal protein consumption rates. Osteoporosis barely even exists in countries like Thailand and China for instance, but they are huge problems for us in America. Animal protein also has no fiber content in it, so this highly concentrated, acidic protein absorbs very rapidly into your body, instead of happening slowly over several hours paired with fiber as it would with nuts and grains for instance -- plant protein is much gentler in the body because of this. I'll have to get to your post about us evolving to eat meat and high-performance athletes eating huge quantities of meat later. Source a reputable medical authority on this please.
Ian Brighthope
Prof., M.D., M.B.B.S., D.Ag.Sci
Melbourne, Australia
President of the Australasian College of Nutritional & Environmental Medicine. Professor Brighthope is a medical doctor & surgeon with over 20 years of practical clinical experience. He has specialized in Nutritional and Environmental Medicine, with a particular interest in heart disease, psychiatric disorders, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, arthritis, asthma, food and chemical sensitivities, diabetes and cancer.
Andrew W Saul
Ph.D, Therapeutic Nutrition Specialist and Author
Rochester, New York
Andrew Saul has a Ph.D. in Human Ethology and has been a consulting specialist in natural healing for over 30 years. As an author and veteran lecturer for three colleges his command of clinical nutrition is second to none. He is also the Assistant Editor of the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine.
Michael A. Klaper, M.D., is an American physician, author, and vegan.
Dr. Klaper graduated from the University of Illinois College of Medicine in 1972 and served his medical internship at Vancouver General Hospital with the University of British Columbia.
Practiced acute care medicine, and eventually became certified in urgent care medicine.
He served as director of a vegan health spa in Pompano Beach, Florida from the early 1990s, where he observed the healing powers of plant-based nutrition.
Charlotte Gerson
Founder of the Gerson Institute
San Diego, California
Charlotte Gerson is the daughter of Dr Max Gerson and the founder of the Gerson Institute. At 85 years of age she is vibrantly healthy and a strong advocate of nutritional healing. In her work at the Gerson Institute she is dedicated to healing and preventing chronic diseases using natural treatments that activate the bodies own healing response.
David Wolfe
World Authority on Raw Foods & Superfoods
San Diego, California
David Wolfe is a leading authority on Raw Food and Superfoods. Coming from a family of two medical doctors David has an interesting perspective on health and healing that confirms his belief in the immutable universal law 'you are what you eat'. David coaches Hollywood Producers and Celebrities as well as some of the worlds leading business people and entrepreneurs.
Victor Zeines
Holistic Dentist & Nutritionist
Manhattan, New York
Dr Zeines is a clinically trained Dentist who has been practicing Holistic Dentistry for over 25 years. He has a masters degree in nutrition and has studied acupressure, kinesiology and chiropractic care. Dr Zeines believes that poor nutrition is one of the major causes of tooth decay and gum disease which is a precursor to chronic disease and can be reversed with improved nutrition and supplementation.
Phillip Day
Investigative Journalist
Kent, UK
Phillip Day is an author, investigative journalist and international speaker. His work revolves around uncovering the most effective treatments available today and distributing that information to as many people as possible. Phillip believes in taking responsibility for ones own health and that "prevention is worth a ton of cure at a thousandth of the cost."
Dr Dan Rogers
Curing the "incurable"
San Diego, California
Dr Dan Rogers is a trained Medical Doctor and Naturopath. He has been treating patients using integrative medicine since the late 1970's. What makes him so unique is his success in treating patients that have been deemed "incurable" by medical practitioners or hospitals. Dr Rogers believes in the use of the Gerson Plus therapy which is a nutrition based form of detoxification and healing from within.
Jerome Burne
Medical Health Journalist
London, UK
Jerome Burne is one of Britain's leading medical health journalists and a valuable contributor to Medicine Today. In his writings, Jerome brings the latest breakthroughs in medical health to a wider audience. He likes to emphasize that science-based does not always mean drug-based and that natural approaches are achieving astounding success rates.
Patrick Holford
Founder of the Institute for Optimum Nutrition
London, UK
Patrick Holford is one of Britain's leading nutrition experts. Patrick is a pioneer in new approaches to health and nutrition, specialising in the field of mental health. In 1984 Patrick founded the Institute for Optimum Nutrition (ION) in London, with his mentor, twice Nobel Prize winner Dr Linus Pauling. Patrick believes that vibrant health and resistance to disease can be achieved through optimum nutrition.
Dr Gert Schuitemaker
Founder of the Ortho Europe Institute
Gendringen, Netherlands
Dr Schuitemaker is a traditionally trained Medical Doctor and Pharmacologist. He is the founder of the Ortho Institute of Europe and President of the International Society for Orthomolecular Medicine in Toronto, Canada. Dr Schuitemaker believes we must first look at how we can help the patient through nutrition and supplementation before any type of medical treatment begins.
Arnaud Apoteker
Biologist and organic food specialist
Paris, France
Arnaud is a biologist and is the head of the anti-GMO (Genetically Modified Organisms) Greenpeace campaign in France. His passion for food which is clean, healthy and good for you, occupies his life. His profession makes Arnaud uniquely qualified to give us his perspective on the many benefits of organics and the hidden dangers of genetically modified foods.
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On September 21 2012 14:03 spacemonkeyy wrote:
As someone who has studied this topic in depth I have a few points to add
-Ethically do as you please, it is your life
-Optimal nutrition has no regard for ethics.
-A lot of vegetarians/vegans actually don't eat many vegetables at all they are eating processed foods and grains- this is obviously unhelathy.
-Eating meat is always a easier way to get many of the nutrients you need as the forms are more bioavailable and concentrated. Let the animal get the nutrients from the their food then you get the nutrients from them. Example B-carotene and retinol (vitamin A), Heme-iron and non heme iron, K1 and K2.
-Eating any diet free from processed foods is going to be better than SAD. Processing of foods IS the problem.
-Most of the anti-meat studies are severely flawed
In conclusion for good health
Eat healthy animals, Eat healthy plants, Move about lots and Get plenty of sleep. Avoid toxic things.
Wat!
A lot of vegetarians/vegans don't eat many vegetables at all? Where the heck do you get that idea? I've been shifting towards conscious decisions on what I eat over the last half a year, and I'd estimate I eat a good 3-4 times more "real vegetables" than before that. I also have a few vegan friends, and they're pretty big on organic / homegrown cooking. It seems inconsistent that people who are making conscious choices on what they eat wouldn't bother to take it as far as eating healthily while they're at it.
(This thread is awesome, though. Cool to see people like r.Evo actually making arguments for veganism make some sense without coming across as a total fucking whackjob. Keep at it, dudes! The people complaining about getting assaulted by vegan agendas voluntarily clicked this thread... methinks we're not as far from the idea of veganism as we think we are!)
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On September 21 2012 14:32 CatfooD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 14:18 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2012 14:15 CatfooD wrote:On September 21 2012 13:31 GoTuNk! wrote:On September 21 2012 13:12 CatfooD wrote:On September 21 2012 12:13 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 12:01 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:51 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:43 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:
[quote]
Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"?
Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. I stunned and fed a Preying Mantis 3 stink bugs about a week ago. I found both outside and didn't actually kill any of the bugs myself. Does that make me an accomplice to murder or is insects eating other insects not imoral? While I appreciate that you try to treat me as your conscience: I don't know. Personally I love watching a Preying Mantis hunt and eat. I also have the same feeling for Lions. Seeing how nature works in an almost undisturbed way is amazing, it's checks and balances. I think I would also love to see humans hunt their food together. What's over the top for me is taking a bunch of animals, putting them into a small place, causing them immense pain from birth to slaughter and all that to produce something we don't need in the first place. If there's no alternative, fine, go ahead. But they are. We have the brain to explore them and the empathy to feel with other living beings. We can make the conscious thought chain of "I don't want to be treated like that" -> "I don't want to see others being treated like that". Not extending the same privilege to another species? Why the hell not? I don't want a stronger and more intelligent species to show up and raise me as cattle either. On September 21 2012 11:41 Olinim wrote:On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:
[quote]
It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows.
I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead.
What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species).
Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P So which is it? In your second paragraph you say it's completely a personal choice and if they're fine with it go ahead. Then in the very next paragraph you say that it should make them feel guilty. I am also sick of people in this thread equating animals to humans. I said it annoys the crap out of me and that I don't understand how to not feel guilty. I can find neither a logical nor an emotional argument to not feel guilty about it. If you can find either, please tell me about it. I actually completely agree with you. The way the meat industry generally works is both immoral and unhealthy. A lot of the reason meat consumption has been tied to increased chance of diseases and colon cancer is because of the way it is processed. The fact is if you eat good quality, free range meat it is not unhealthy in moderate portions. I eat a lot of meat and I have been trying cut down. Completely agree. I don't see a big difference between someone aiming to consume good quality meat once a week and someone being completely vegan or vegetarian (even though most of those would prolly throw rocks at me for that statement =P). That's an attitude which showcases that someone thought about the whole issue and made a conscious decision. "I eat meat because it's here and I like it and that's all now leave me alone" is an attitude I don't want to tolerate. It showcases the absolute worst that humanity has to offer. Then again, that's not about eating meat in general anymore as I said earlier. That's about ignorance and a low intellect and probably applies to most other subjects as well. The quality of the meat and dairy products you consume certainly has a huuuge impact on health, yes. Eating prime quality, organic meats and cheeses for instance is a lot healthier than eating McDonald's and hotdogs in which you consume massive quantities of preservatives, chemicals, genetically modified products, etc. However, in general, the nature of meat and dairy is not healthy for our bodies to process, despite being organic and prime quality or not. Meat and dairy products have the highest contents of fats, bad cholesterol, saturated fats, and acidic animal-based protein of any other food we consume. They are direct contributors to the #1 and #2 leading killers in the US -- heart disease and numerous cancers. They also cause many other chronic illnesses like coronary heart disease, diabetes, osteoporosis, etc If we abstain from consuming these foods, we can remove our risk of nearly ever having these major illnesses and diseases in our lives. I don't mind people not eating meat for ethical or religious reasons (though I don't share them) but spreading lies about nutrition is something vegans should abstain from doing. The leading cause of both heart deseases and cancer are sendentarism, high processed foods and high-fructose corn syrup. If you believe cheetos are healthier than meat, you are not very smart. Animal meat (cow beef) has 0 transfat, more mono unsaturated fat than saturated fat, tons of bioavailable protein, and HEALTHY cholesterol and saturated fat required to produce testosterone, and therefore be a healthy man. Not to mention a shitload of vitamins and minerals. Also humans evolved to eat meat, and that virtually any succesful athlete in the world bases his diet around MEAT, eggs and veggies. We have the intestine lenght and gut of meat eaters, and its actually how wolves and humans developed symbiosis; cause they wanted to eat the same shit. I never said that eating cheetos or drinking soda is healthier or unhealthier than meat. People don't realize that the word vegan doesn't mean healthy. Like I mentioned in a previous post, vegan just means avoiding the consumption of any animal product. Eating cheetos, pepsi, oreos and all of that is 100% vegan, but provide much, much less nutrition than eating meat and dairy, just like you said. Eating vegan candy garbage and eating fruits/vegetables/grains are two totally different stories, but they both happen to technically be vegan. Transfat isn't the only type of fat that is unhealthy. Trans fat happens to be the absolute worst kind of fat that we could possibly consume, but because a cow doesn't have any of it doesn't mean that a cow also doesn't have one of the highest saturated fat and cholesterol contents of any food. Any cholesterol that you consume in the diet is unhealthy. Our bodies makes cholesterol, plenty for our bodies' needs, and any external source of cholesterol needs to be absorbed and eliminated through the liver that doesn't get clogged in our arteries already. Animal protein has one good quality about it in my opinion -- it contains more of all of the essential amino acids than plant products have. However, animal protein is extremely acidic and causes our body to go into a process called leukocytosis that treats the protein like an infection or bacteria. The blood gets flooded with white blood cells and attacks it to neutralize the acidity. When you digest highly acidic animal protein, your body releases lots of toxic wastes like urea and amonia that are detrimental to your body as these wastes go through your kidneys. Animal protein has a huge content of sulfur, which washes through the bones and disolves calcium out of your bones as it is being digested. Animal protein is also the most concentrated type of protein on the planet, so you get a huge surge of this every time you eat meat or dairy. Because the high acidity of this protein dissolves calcium out of your bones, you see the highest cases of osteoporosis (osteo - bone, porosis - porous (porous bones)) in countries that have the highest animal protein consumption rates. Osteoporosis barely even exists in countries like Thailand and China for instance, but they are huge problems for us in America. Animal protein also has no fiber content in it, so this highly concentrated, acidic protein absorbs very rapidly into your body, instead of happening slowly over several hours paired with fiber as it would with nuts and grains for instance -- plant protein is much gentler in the body because of this. I'll have to get to your post about us evolving to eat meat and high-performance athletes eating huge quantities of meat later. Source a reputable medical authority on this please. Ian Brighthope Prof., M.D., M.B.B.S., D.Ag.Sci Melbourne, Australia President of the Australasian College of Nutritional & Environmental Medicine. Professor Brighthope is a medical doctor & surgeon with over 20 years of practical clinical experience. He has specialized in Nutritional and Environmental Medicine, with a particular interest in heart disease, psychiatric disorders, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, arthritis, asthma, food and chemical sensitivities, diabetes and cancer. Andrew W Saul Ph.D, Therapeutic Nutrition Specialist and Author Rochester, New York Andrew Saul has a Ph.D. in Human Ethology and has been a consulting specialist in natural healing for over 30 years. As an author and veteran lecturer for three colleges his command of clinical nutrition is second to none. He is also the Assistant Editor of the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine. Michael A. Klaper, M.D., is an American physician, author, and vegan. Dr. Klaper graduated from the University of Illinois College of Medicine in 1972 and served his medical internship at Vancouver General Hospital with the University of British Columbia. Practiced acute care medicine, and eventually became certified in urgent care medicine. He served as director of a vegan health spa in Pompano Beach, Florida from the early 1990s, where he observed the healing powers of plant-based nutrition. Charlotte Gerson Founder of the Gerson Institute San Diego, California Charlotte Gerson is the daughter of Dr Max Gerson and the founder of the Gerson Institute. At 85 years of age she is vibrantly healthy and a strong advocate of nutritional healing. In her work at the Gerson Institute she is dedicated to healing and preventing chronic diseases using natural treatments that activate the bodies own healing response. David Wolfe World Authority on Raw Foods & Superfoods San Diego, California David Wolfe is a leading authority on Raw Food and Superfoods. Coming from a family of two medical doctors David has an interesting perspective on health and healing that confirms his belief in the immutable universal law 'you are what you eat'. David coaches Hollywood Producers and Celebrities as well as some of the worlds leading business people and entrepreneurs. Victor Zeines Holistic Dentist & Nutritionist Manhattan, New York Dr Zeines is a clinically trained Dentist who has been practicing Holistic Dentistry for over 25 years. He has a masters degree in nutrition and has studied acupressure, kinesiology and chiropractic care. Dr Zeines believes that poor nutrition is one of the major causes of tooth decay and gum disease which is a precursor to chronic disease and can be reversed with improved nutrition and supplementation. Phillip Day Investigative Journalist Kent, UK Phillip Day is an author, investigative journalist and international speaker. His work revolves around uncovering the most effective treatments available today and distributing that information to as many people as possible. Phillip believes in taking responsibility for ones own health and that "prevention is worth a ton of cure at a thousandth of the cost." Dr Dan Rogers Curing the "incurable" San Diego, California Dr Dan Rogers is a trained Medical Doctor and Naturopath. He has been treating patients using integrative medicine since the late 1970's. What makes him so unique is his success in treating patients that have been deemed "incurable" by medical practitioners or hospitals. Dr Rogers believes in the use of the Gerson Plus therapy which is a nutrition based form of detoxification and healing from within. Jerome Burne Medical Health Journalist London, UK Jerome Burne is one of Britain's leading medical health journalists and a valuable contributor to Medicine Today. In his writings, Jerome brings the latest breakthroughs in medical health to a wider audience. He likes to emphasize that science-based does not always mean drug-based and that natural approaches are achieving astounding success rates. Patrick Holford Founder of the Institute for Optimum Nutrition London, UK Patrick Holford is one of Britain's leading nutrition experts. Patrick is a pioneer in new approaches to health and nutrition, specialising in the field of mental health. In 1984 Patrick founded the Institute for Optimum Nutrition (ION) in London, with his mentor, twice Nobel Prize winner Dr Linus Pauling. Patrick believes that vibrant health and resistance to disease can be achieved through optimum nutrition. Dr Gert Schuitemaker Founder of the Ortho Europe Institute Gendringen, Netherlands Dr Schuitemaker is a traditionally trained Medical Doctor and Pharmacologist. He is the founder of the Ortho Institute of Europe and President of the International Society for Orthomolecular Medicine in Toronto, Canada. Dr Schuitemaker believes we must first look at how we can help the patient through nutrition and supplementation before any type of medical treatment begins. Arnaud Apoteker Biologist and organic food specialist Paris, France Arnaud is a biologist and is the head of the anti-GMO (Genetically Modified Organisms) Greenpeace campaign in France. His passion for food which is clean, healthy and good for you, occupies his life. His profession makes Arnaud uniquely qualified to give us his perspective on the many benefits of organics and the hidden dangers of genetically modified foods.
You were asked for authority, so you sent us the bios of 20 or so random people? How on earth can you think this backs up your argument?
Also, ITT: anecdotal evidence.
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On September 21 2012 14:32 CatfooD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 14:18 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2012 14:15 CatfooD wrote:On September 21 2012 13:31 GoTuNk! wrote:On September 21 2012 13:12 CatfooD wrote:On September 21 2012 12:13 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 12:01 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:51 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:43 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:35 r.Evo wrote:
[quote]
Last time I checked we used to call other human beings "dogs" which made it okay to slaughter them. Or we called them sub-human. Can you honestly step up and say "I have no idea how a dog feels when I kick him repeatedly therefor it's okay to do so"?
Unless it's an animal which is dangerous and might cause sickness or death soon, there is no reason to hurt it. If your only reason to squash a bug is "It annoyed me" than that's nothing better than than initiating a bar fight because "that guy annoyed me and I think I'm stronger". If you want to go down to that level, sure. Both show complete ignorance, lack of empathy and abuse of a position of power. I stunned and fed a Preying Mantis 3 stink bugs about a week ago. I found both outside and didn't actually kill any of the bugs myself. Does that make me an accomplice to murder or is insects eating other insects not imoral? While I appreciate that you try to treat me as your conscience: I don't know. Personally I love watching a Preying Mantis hunt and eat. I also have the same feeling for Lions. Seeing how nature works in an almost undisturbed way is amazing, it's checks and balances. I think I would also love to see humans hunt their food together. What's over the top for me is taking a bunch of animals, putting them into a small place, causing them immense pain from birth to slaughter and all that to produce something we don't need in the first place. If there's no alternative, fine, go ahead. But they are. We have the brain to explore them and the empathy to feel with other living beings. We can make the conscious thought chain of "I don't want to be treated like that" -> "I don't want to see others being treated like that". Not extending the same privilege to another species? Why the hell not? I don't want a stronger and more intelligent species to show up and raise me as cattle either. On September 21 2012 11:41 Olinim wrote:On September 21 2012 11:31 r.Evo wrote:
[quote]
It's more because of the actual methods used to make those cows "perform". Imagine taking a 8-12 year old girl, pumping her full of medicine that tells her body she's pregnant and then milking her for about 1000% of the amount that would be healthy for a 20 year old to give. After a few years of doing that you say that she's not worth it anymore on an economical level and slaughter her. That's pretty much what we do to cows.
I like to think that we are more evolved than the lion killing a zebra. What you eat on a daily basis is NOT because of some millions of year old urge, it's not because there is nothing else to eat. It's a daily conscious choice based on all the information you have. Personally, I can't make the conscious choice that I want to see animals die for me. However, that's a personal thing. If you're fine with that choice, go ahead.
What annoys the crap out of me are people who don't want to have all the information (which is a sign for a low intellect), decide to ignore all the information available (which showcases ignorance at its finest) or have all the information, understand it and still do it without the slightest feeling of guilt (which shows a low level of empathy with other species).
Kinda hard to get out of there if you approach if on an analytical level. =P So which is it? In your second paragraph you say it's completely a personal choice and if they're fine with it go ahead. Then in the very next paragraph you say that it should make them feel guilty. I am also sick of people in this thread equating animals to humans. I said it annoys the crap out of me and that I don't understand how to not feel guilty. I can find neither a logical nor an emotional argument to not feel guilty about it. If you can find either, please tell me about it. I actually completely agree with you. The way the meat industry generally works is both immoral and unhealthy. A lot of the reason meat consumption has been tied to increased chance of diseases and colon cancer is because of the way it is processed. The fact is if you eat good quality, free range meat it is not unhealthy in moderate portions. I eat a lot of meat and I have been trying cut down. Completely agree. I don't see a big difference between someone aiming to consume good quality meat once a week and someone being completely vegan or vegetarian (even though most of those would prolly throw rocks at me for that statement =P). That's an attitude which showcases that someone thought about the whole issue and made a conscious decision. "I eat meat because it's here and I like it and that's all now leave me alone" is an attitude I don't want to tolerate. It showcases the absolute worst that humanity has to offer. Then again, that's not about eating meat in general anymore as I said earlier. That's about ignorance and a low intellect and probably applies to most other subjects as well. The quality of the meat and dairy products you consume certainly has a huuuge impact on health, yes. Eating prime quality, organic meats and cheeses for instance is a lot healthier than eating McDonald's and hotdogs in which you consume massive quantities of preservatives, chemicals, genetically modified products, etc. However, in general, the nature of meat and dairy is not healthy for our bodies to process, despite being organic and prime quality or not. Meat and dairy products have the highest contents of fats, bad cholesterol, saturated fats, and acidic animal-based protein of any other food we consume. They are direct contributors to the #1 and #2 leading killers in the US -- heart disease and numerous cancers. They also cause many other chronic illnesses like coronary heart disease, diabetes, osteoporosis, etc If we abstain from consuming these foods, we can remove our risk of nearly ever having these major illnesses and diseases in our lives. I don't mind people not eating meat for ethical or religious reasons (though I don't share them) but spreading lies about nutrition is something vegans should abstain from doing. The leading cause of both heart deseases and cancer are sendentarism, high processed foods and high-fructose corn syrup. If you believe cheetos are healthier than meat, you are not very smart. Animal meat (cow beef) has 0 transfat, more mono unsaturated fat than saturated fat, tons of bioavailable protein, and HEALTHY cholesterol and saturated fat required to produce testosterone, and therefore be a healthy man. Not to mention a shitload of vitamins and minerals. Also humans evolved to eat meat, and that virtually any succesful athlete in the world bases his diet around MEAT, eggs and veggies. We have the intestine lenght and gut of meat eaters, and its actually how wolves and humans developed symbiosis; cause they wanted to eat the same shit. I never said that eating cheetos or drinking soda is healthier or unhealthier than meat. People don't realize that the word vegan doesn't mean healthy. Like I mentioned in a previous post, vegan just means avoiding the consumption of any animal product. Eating cheetos, pepsi, oreos and all of that is 100% vegan, but provide much, much less nutrition than eating meat and dairy, just like you said. Eating vegan candy garbage and eating fruits/vegetables/grains are two totally different stories, but they both happen to technically be vegan. Transfat isn't the only type of fat that is unhealthy. Trans fat happens to be the absolute worst kind of fat that we could possibly consume, but because a cow doesn't have any of it doesn't mean that a cow also doesn't have one of the highest saturated fat and cholesterol contents of any food. Any cholesterol that you consume in the diet is unhealthy. Our bodies makes cholesterol, plenty for our bodies' needs, and any external source of cholesterol needs to be absorbed and eliminated through the liver that doesn't get clogged in our arteries already. Animal protein has one good quality about it in my opinion -- it contains more of all of the essential amino acids than plant products have. However, animal protein is extremely acidic and causes our body to go into a process called leukocytosis that treats the protein like an infection or bacteria. The blood gets flooded with white blood cells and attacks it to neutralize the acidity. When you digest highly acidic animal protein, your body releases lots of toxic wastes like urea and amonia that are detrimental to your body as these wastes go through your kidneys. Animal protein has a huge content of sulfur, which washes through the bones and disolves calcium out of your bones as it is being digested. Animal protein is also the most concentrated type of protein on the planet, so you get a huge surge of this every time you eat meat or dairy. Because the high acidity of this protein dissolves calcium out of your bones, you see the highest cases of osteoporosis (osteo - bone, porosis - porous (porous bones)) in countries that have the highest animal protein consumption rates. Osteoporosis barely even exists in countries like Thailand and China for instance, but they are huge problems for us in America. Animal protein also has no fiber content in it, so this highly concentrated, acidic protein absorbs very rapidly into your body, instead of happening slowly over several hours paired with fiber as it would with nuts and grains for instance -- plant protein is much gentler in the body because of this. I'll have to get to your post about us evolving to eat meat and high-performance athletes eating huge quantities of meat later. Source a reputable medical authority on this please. + Show Spoiler +
Ian Brighthope
Prof., M.D., M.B.B.S., D.Ag.Sci
Melbourne, Australia
President of the Australasian College of Nutritional & Environmental Medicine. Professor Brighthope is a medical doctor & surgeon with over 20 years of practical clinical experience. He has specialized in Nutritional and Environmental Medicine, with a particular interest in heart disease, psychiatric disorders, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, arthritis, asthma, food and chemical sensitivities, diabetes and cancer.
Andrew W Saul
Ph.D, Therapeutic Nutrition Specialist and Author
Rochester, New York
Andrew Saul has a Ph.D. in Human Ethology and has been a consulting specialist in natural healing for over 30 years. As an author and veteran lecturer for three colleges his command of clinical nutrition is second to none. He is also the Assistant Editor of the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine.
Michael A. Klaper, M.D., is an American physician, author, and vegan.
Dr. Klaper graduated from the University of Illinois College of Medicine in 1972 and served his medical internship at Vancouver General Hospital with the University of British Columbia.
Practiced acute care medicine, and eventually became certified in urgent care medicine.
He served as director of a vegan health spa in Pompano Beach, Florida from the early 1990s, where he observed the healing powers of plant-based nutrition.
Charlotte Gerson
Founder of the Gerson Institute
San Diego, California
Charlotte Gerson is the daughter of Dr Max Gerson and the founder of the Gerson Institute. At 85 years of age she is vibrantly healthy and a strong advocate of nutritional healing. In her work at the Gerson Institute she is dedicated to healing and preventing chronic diseases using natural treatments that activate the bodies own healing response.
David Wolfe
World Authority on Raw Foods & Superfoods
San Diego, California
David Wolfe is a leading authority on Raw Food and Superfoods. Coming from a family of two medical doctors David has an interesting perspective on health and healing that confirms his belief in the immutable universal law 'you are what you eat'. David coaches Hollywood Producers and Celebrities as well as some of the worlds leading business people and entrepreneurs.
Victor Zeines
Holistic Dentist & Nutritionist
Manhattan, New York
Dr Zeines is a clinically trained Dentist who has been practicing Holistic Dentistry for over 25 years. He has a masters degree in nutrition and has studied acupressure, kinesiology and chiropractic care. Dr Zeines believes that poor nutrition is one of the major causes of tooth decay and gum disease which is a precursor to chronic disease and can be reversed with improved nutrition and supplementation.
Phillip Day
Investigative Journalist
Kent, UK
Phillip Day is an author, investigative journalist and international speaker. His work revolves around uncovering the most effective treatments available today and distributing that information to as many people as possible. Phillip believes in taking responsibility for ones own health and that "prevention is worth a ton of cure at a thousandth of the cost."
Dr Dan Rogers
Curing the "incurable"
San Diego, California
Dr Dan Rogers is a trained Medical Doctor and Naturopath. He has been treating patients using integrative medicine since the late 1970's. What makes him so unique is his success in treating patients that have been deemed "incurable" by medical practitioners or hospitals. Dr Rogers believes in the use of the Gerson Plus therapy which is a nutrition based form of detoxification and healing from within.
Jerome Burne
Medical Health Journalist
London, UK
Jerome Burne is one of Britain's leading medical health journalists and a valuable contributor to Medicine Today. In his writings, Jerome brings the latest breakthroughs in medical health to a wider audience. He likes to emphasize that science-based does not always mean drug-based and that natural approaches are achieving astounding success rates.
Patrick Holford
Founder of the Institute for Optimum Nutrition
London, UK
Patrick Holford is one of Britain's leading nutrition experts. Patrick is a pioneer in new approaches to health and nutrition, specialising in the field of mental health. In 1984 Patrick founded the Institute for Optimum Nutrition (ION) in London, with his mentor, twice Nobel Prize winner Dr Linus Pauling. Patrick believes that vibrant health and resistance to disease can be achieved through optimum nutrition.
Dr Gert Schuitemaker
Founder of the Ortho Europe Institute
Gendringen, Netherlands
Dr Schuitemaker is a traditionally trained Medical Doctor and Pharmacologist. He is the founder of the Ortho Institute of Europe and President of the International Society for Orthomolecular Medicine in Toronto, Canada. Dr Schuitemaker believes we must first look at how we can help the patient through nutrition and supplementation before any type of medical treatment begins.
Arnaud Apoteker
Biologist and organic food specialist
Paris, France
Arnaud is a biologist and is the head of the anti-GMO (Genetically Modified Organisms) Greenpeace campaign in France. His passion for food which is clean, healthy and good for you, occupies his life. His profession makes Arnaud uniquely qualified to give us his perspective on the many benefits of organics and the hidden dangers of genetically modified foods.
No no no, I mean the published words, the meat of what you are saying, not some arbitrary list of international snake oil peddlers.
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I still don't understand why would you choose to be vegan if you have to end up taking supplements. If your diet does not give you the satisfactory nutrition, then your diet is clearly not working. I just end up being dumbfounded when I encounter a vegan who takes dietary supplements. (Really though, inside my head I just want to slap them silly to have such logic)
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On September 21 2012 14:36 Gloomzy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 14:32 CatfooD wrote:On September 21 2012 14:18 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2012 14:15 CatfooD wrote:On September 21 2012 13:31 GoTuNk! wrote:On September 21 2012 13:12 CatfooD wrote:On September 21 2012 12:13 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 12:01 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:51 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 11:43 SupLilSon wrote:
[quote]
I stunned and fed a Preying Mantis 3 stink bugs about a week ago. I found both outside and didn't actually kill any of the bugs myself. Does that make me an accomplice to murder or is insects eating other insects not imoral? While I appreciate that you try to treat me as your conscience: I don't know. Personally I love watching a Preying Mantis hunt and eat. I also have the same feeling for Lions. Seeing how nature works in an almost undisturbed way is amazing, it's checks and balances. I think I would also love to see humans hunt their food together. What's over the top for me is taking a bunch of animals, putting them into a small place, causing them immense pain from birth to slaughter and all that to produce something we don't need in the first place. If there's no alternative, fine, go ahead. But they are. We have the brain to explore them and the empathy to feel with other living beings. We can make the conscious thought chain of "I don't want to be treated like that" -> "I don't want to see others being treated like that". Not extending the same privilege to another species? Why the hell not? I don't want a stronger and more intelligent species to show up and raise me as cattle either. On September 21 2012 11:41 Olinim wrote:
[quote]
So which is it? In your second paragraph you say it's completely a personal choice and if they're fine with it go ahead. Then in the very next paragraph you say that it should make them feel guilty. I am also sick of people in this thread equating animals to humans. I said it annoys the crap out of me and that I don't understand how to not feel guilty. I can find neither a logical nor an emotional argument to not feel guilty about it. If you can find either, please tell me about it. I actually completely agree with you. The way the meat industry generally works is both immoral and unhealthy. A lot of the reason meat consumption has been tied to increased chance of diseases and colon cancer is because of the way it is processed. The fact is if you eat good quality, free range meat it is not unhealthy in moderate portions. I eat a lot of meat and I have been trying cut down. Completely agree. I don't see a big difference between someone aiming to consume good quality meat once a week and someone being completely vegan or vegetarian (even though most of those would prolly throw rocks at me for that statement =P). That's an attitude which showcases that someone thought about the whole issue and made a conscious decision. "I eat meat because it's here and I like it and that's all now leave me alone" is an attitude I don't want to tolerate. It showcases the absolute worst that humanity has to offer. Then again, that's not about eating meat in general anymore as I said earlier. That's about ignorance and a low intellect and probably applies to most other subjects as well. The quality of the meat and dairy products you consume certainly has a huuuge impact on health, yes. Eating prime quality, organic meats and cheeses for instance is a lot healthier than eating McDonald's and hotdogs in which you consume massive quantities of preservatives, chemicals, genetically modified products, etc. However, in general, the nature of meat and dairy is not healthy for our bodies to process, despite being organic and prime quality or not. Meat and dairy products have the highest contents of fats, bad cholesterol, saturated fats, and acidic animal-based protein of any other food we consume. They are direct contributors to the #1 and #2 leading killers in the US -- heart disease and numerous cancers. They also cause many other chronic illnesses like coronary heart disease, diabetes, osteoporosis, etc If we abstain from consuming these foods, we can remove our risk of nearly ever having these major illnesses and diseases in our lives. I don't mind people not eating meat for ethical or religious reasons (though I don't share them) but spreading lies about nutrition is something vegans should abstain from doing. The leading cause of both heart deseases and cancer are sendentarism, high processed foods and high-fructose corn syrup. If you believe cheetos are healthier than meat, you are not very smart. Animal meat (cow beef) has 0 transfat, more mono unsaturated fat than saturated fat, tons of bioavailable protein, and HEALTHY cholesterol and saturated fat required to produce testosterone, and therefore be a healthy man. Not to mention a shitload of vitamins and minerals. Also humans evolved to eat meat, and that virtually any succesful athlete in the world bases his diet around MEAT, eggs and veggies. We have the intestine lenght and gut of meat eaters, and its actually how wolves and humans developed symbiosis; cause they wanted to eat the same shit. I never said that eating cheetos or drinking soda is healthier or unhealthier than meat. People don't realize that the word vegan doesn't mean healthy. Like I mentioned in a previous post, vegan just means avoiding the consumption of any animal product. Eating cheetos, pepsi, oreos and all of that is 100% vegan, but provide much, much less nutrition than eating meat and dairy, just like you said. Eating vegan candy garbage and eating fruits/vegetables/grains are two totally different stories, but they both happen to technically be vegan. Transfat isn't the only type of fat that is unhealthy. Trans fat happens to be the absolute worst kind of fat that we could possibly consume, but because a cow doesn't have any of it doesn't mean that a cow also doesn't have one of the highest saturated fat and cholesterol contents of any food. Any cholesterol that you consume in the diet is unhealthy. Our bodies makes cholesterol, plenty for our bodies' needs, and any external source of cholesterol needs to be absorbed and eliminated through the liver that doesn't get clogged in our arteries already. Animal protein has one good quality about it in my opinion -- it contains more of all of the essential amino acids than plant products have. However, animal protein is extremely acidic and causes our body to go into a process called leukocytosis that treats the protein like an infection or bacteria. The blood gets flooded with white blood cells and attacks it to neutralize the acidity. When you digest highly acidic animal protein, your body releases lots of toxic wastes like urea and amonia that are detrimental to your body as these wastes go through your kidneys. Animal protein has a huge content of sulfur, which washes through the bones and disolves calcium out of your bones as it is being digested. Animal protein is also the most concentrated type of protein on the planet, so you get a huge surge of this every time you eat meat or dairy. Because the high acidity of this protein dissolves calcium out of your bones, you see the highest cases of osteoporosis (osteo - bone, porosis - porous (porous bones)) in countries that have the highest animal protein consumption rates. Osteoporosis barely even exists in countries like Thailand and China for instance, but they are huge problems for us in America. Animal protein also has no fiber content in it, so this highly concentrated, acidic protein absorbs very rapidly into your body, instead of happening slowly over several hours paired with fiber as it would with nuts and grains for instance -- plant protein is much gentler in the body because of this. I'll have to get to your post about us evolving to eat meat and high-performance athletes eating huge quantities of meat later. Source a reputable medical authority on this please. Ian Brighthope Prof., M.D., M.B.B.S., D.Ag.Sci Melbourne, Australia President of the Australasian College of Nutritional & Environmental Medicine. Professor Brighthope is a medical doctor & surgeon with over 20 years of practical clinical experience. He has specialized in Nutritional and Environmental Medicine, with a particular interest in heart disease, psychiatric disorders, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, arthritis, asthma, food and chemical sensitivities, diabetes and cancer. Andrew W Saul Ph.D, Therapeutic Nutrition Specialist and Author Rochester, New York Andrew Saul has a Ph.D. in Human Ethology and has been a consulting specialist in natural healing for over 30 years. As an author and veteran lecturer for three colleges his command of clinical nutrition is second to none. He is also the Assistant Editor of the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine. Michael A. Klaper, M.D., is an American physician, author, and vegan. Dr. Klaper graduated from the University of Illinois College of Medicine in 1972 and served his medical internship at Vancouver General Hospital with the University of British Columbia. Practiced acute care medicine, and eventually became certified in urgent care medicine. He served as director of a vegan health spa in Pompano Beach, Florida from the early 1990s, where he observed the healing powers of plant-based nutrition. Charlotte Gerson Founder of the Gerson Institute San Diego, California Charlotte Gerson is the daughter of Dr Max Gerson and the founder of the Gerson Institute. At 85 years of age she is vibrantly healthy and a strong advocate of nutritional healing. In her work at the Gerson Institute she is dedicated to healing and preventing chronic diseases using natural treatments that activate the bodies own healing response. David Wolfe World Authority on Raw Foods & Superfoods San Diego, California David Wolfe is a leading authority on Raw Food and Superfoods. Coming from a family of two medical doctors David has an interesting perspective on health and healing that confirms his belief in the immutable universal law 'you are what you eat'. David coaches Hollywood Producers and Celebrities as well as some of the worlds leading business people and entrepreneurs. Victor Zeines Holistic Dentist & Nutritionist Manhattan, New York Dr Zeines is a clinically trained Dentist who has been practicing Holistic Dentistry for over 25 years. He has a masters degree in nutrition and has studied acupressure, kinesiology and chiropractic care. Dr Zeines believes that poor nutrition is one of the major causes of tooth decay and gum disease which is a precursor to chronic disease and can be reversed with improved nutrition and supplementation. Phillip Day Investigative Journalist Kent, UK Phillip Day is an author, investigative journalist and international speaker. His work revolves around uncovering the most effective treatments available today and distributing that information to as many people as possible. Phillip believes in taking responsibility for ones own health and that "prevention is worth a ton of cure at a thousandth of the cost." Dr Dan Rogers Curing the "incurable" San Diego, California Dr Dan Rogers is a trained Medical Doctor and Naturopath. He has been treating patients using integrative medicine since the late 1970's. What makes him so unique is his success in treating patients that have been deemed "incurable" by medical practitioners or hospitals. Dr Rogers believes in the use of the Gerson Plus therapy which is a nutrition based form of detoxification and healing from within. Jerome Burne Medical Health Journalist London, UK Jerome Burne is one of Britain's leading medical health journalists and a valuable contributor to Medicine Today. In his writings, Jerome brings the latest breakthroughs in medical health to a wider audience. He likes to emphasize that science-based does not always mean drug-based and that natural approaches are achieving astounding success rates. Patrick Holford Founder of the Institute for Optimum Nutrition London, UK Patrick Holford is one of Britain's leading nutrition experts. Patrick is a pioneer in new approaches to health and nutrition, specialising in the field of mental health. In 1984 Patrick founded the Institute for Optimum Nutrition (ION) in London, with his mentor, twice Nobel Prize winner Dr Linus Pauling. Patrick believes that vibrant health and resistance to disease can be achieved through optimum nutrition. Dr Gert Schuitemaker Founder of the Ortho Europe Institute Gendringen, Netherlands Dr Schuitemaker is a traditionally trained Medical Doctor and Pharmacologist. He is the founder of the Ortho Institute of Europe and President of the International Society for Orthomolecular Medicine in Toronto, Canada. Dr Schuitemaker believes we must first look at how we can help the patient through nutrition and supplementation before any type of medical treatment begins. Arnaud Apoteker Biologist and organic food specialist Paris, France Arnaud is a biologist and is the head of the anti-GMO (Genetically Modified Organisms) Greenpeace campaign in France. His passion for food which is clean, healthy and good for you, occupies his life. His profession makes Arnaud uniquely qualified to give us his perspective on the many benefits of organics and the hidden dangers of genetically modified foods. You were asked for authority, so you sent us the bios of 20 or so random people? How on earth can you think this backs up your argument? Also, ITT: anecdotal evidence.
No I don't think it does much, it's just all the information I have to back up some of what I am saying since I was asked. I could have provided nothing and just kept on talking about things that I have learned, picked up from studying, personal experiences and talking to professionals in the industries. Just providing what I can get a hold of at the moment in case anyone is interested in any of that. It would take me a lot more time than I have to dig up more information of works they have published, documentaries they have been in, speeches they have given, etc.
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On September 21 2012 14:39 Zariel wrote:
I still don't understand why would you choose to be vegan if you have to end up taking supplements. If your diet does not give you the satisfactory nutrition, then your diet is clearly not working. I just end up being dumbfounded when I encounter a vegan who takes dietary supplements. (Really though, inside my head I just want to slap them silly to have such logic)
I don't think it's a hard concept to understand. A main reason why you wouldn't eat any meat is because you do not believe it is moral. They clearly want to stay healthy, so they take dietary supplements. Is it bad to do so? I think it has been safely established that a vegan diet is not the optimal health diet. Anyone with half of G. W. Bush's IQ can realize that.
Though, in general, I think you can live quite healthily off of a vegan diet if you eat the right things. Having a balanced diet doesn't rely on eating meat, I'm afraid.
@everyone
Please include links if you can to statistical data obtained from studies supporting your arguments. No one likes it when you say something without backing it up.
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On September 21 2012 14:44 CatfooD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 14:36 Gloomzy wrote:On September 21 2012 14:32 CatfooD wrote:On September 21 2012 14:18 farvacola wrote:On September 21 2012 14:15 CatfooD wrote:On September 21 2012 13:31 GoTuNk! wrote:On September 21 2012 13:12 CatfooD wrote:On September 21 2012 12:13 r.Evo wrote:On September 21 2012 12:01 SupLilSon wrote:On September 21 2012 11:51 r.Evo wrote:
[quote]
While I appreciate that you try to treat me as your conscience: I don't know. Personally I love watching a Preying Mantis hunt and eat. I also have the same feeling for Lions. Seeing how nature works in an almost undisturbed way is amazing, it's checks and balances. I think I would also love to see humans hunt their food together.
What's over the top for me is taking a bunch of animals, putting them into a small place, causing them immense pain from birth to slaughter and all that to produce something we don't need in the first place. If there's no alternative, fine, go ahead. But they are. We have the brain to explore them and the empathy to feel with other living beings. We can make the conscious thought chain of "I don't want to be treated like that" -> "I don't want to see others being treated like that".
Not extending the same privilege to another species? Why the hell not? I don't want a stronger and more intelligent species to show up and raise me as cattle either.
[quote]
I said it annoys the crap out of me and that I don't understand how to not feel guilty. I can find neither a logical nor an emotional argument to not feel guilty about it. If you can find either, please tell me about it. I actually completely agree with you. The way the meat industry generally works is both immoral and unhealthy. A lot of the reason meat consumption has been tied to increased chance of diseases and colon cancer is because of the way it is processed. The fact is if you eat good quality, free range meat it is not unhealthy in moderate portions. I eat a lot of meat and I have been trying cut down. Completely agree. I don't see a big difference between someone aiming to consume good quality meat once a week and someone being completely vegan or vegetarian (even though most of those would prolly throw rocks at me for that statement =P). That's an attitude which showcases that someone thought about the whole issue and made a conscious decision. "I eat meat because it's here and I like it and that's all now leave me alone" is an attitude I don't want to tolerate. It showcases the absolute worst that humanity has to offer. Then again, that's not about eating meat in general anymore as I said earlier. That's about ignorance and a low intellect and probably applies to most other subjects as well. The quality of the meat and dairy products you consume certainly has a huuuge impact on health, yes. Eating prime quality, organic meats and cheeses for instance is a lot healthier than eating McDonald's and hotdogs in which you consume massive quantities of preservatives, chemicals, genetically modified products, etc. However, in general, the nature of meat and dairy is not healthy for our bodies to process, despite being organic and prime quality or not. Meat and dairy products have the highest contents of fats, bad cholesterol, saturated fats, and acidic animal-based protein of any other food we consume. They are direct contributors to the #1 and #2 leading killers in the US -- heart disease and numerous cancers. They also cause many other chronic illnesses like coronary heart disease, diabetes, osteoporosis, etc If we abstain from consuming these foods, we can remove our risk of nearly ever having these major illnesses and diseases in our lives. I don't mind people not eating meat for ethical or religious reasons (though I don't share them) but spreading lies about nutrition is something vegans should abstain from doing. The leading cause of both heart deseases and cancer are sendentarism, high processed foods and high-fructose corn syrup. If you believe cheetos are healthier than meat, you are not very smart. Animal meat (cow beef) has 0 transfat, more mono unsaturated fat than saturated fat, tons of bioavailable protein, and HEALTHY cholesterol and saturated fat required to produce testosterone, and therefore be a healthy man. Not to mention a shitload of vitamins and minerals. Also humans evolved to eat meat, and that virtually any succesful athlete in the world bases his diet around MEAT, eggs and veggies. We have the intestine lenght and gut of meat eaters, and its actually how wolves and humans developed symbiosis; cause they wanted to eat the same shit. I never said that eating cheetos or drinking soda is healthier or unhealthier than meat. People don't realize that the word vegan doesn't mean healthy. Like I mentioned in a previous post, vegan just means avoiding the consumption of any animal product. Eating cheetos, pepsi, oreos and all of that is 100% vegan, but provide much, much less nutrition than eating meat and dairy, just like you said. Eating vegan candy garbage and eating fruits/vegetables/grains are two totally different stories, but they both happen to technically be vegan. Transfat isn't the only type of fat that is unhealthy. Trans fat happens to be the absolute worst kind of fat that we could possibly consume, but because a cow doesn't have any of it doesn't mean that a cow also doesn't have one of the highest saturated fat and cholesterol contents of any food. Any cholesterol that you consume in the diet is unhealthy. Our bodies makes cholesterol, plenty for our bodies' needs, and any external source of cholesterol needs to be absorbed and eliminated through the liver that doesn't get clogged in our arteries already. Animal protein has one good quality about it in my opinion -- it contains more of all of the essential amino acids than plant products have. However, animal protein is extremely acidic and causes our body to go into a process called leukocytosis that treats the protein like an infection or bacteria. The blood gets flooded with white blood cells and attacks it to neutralize the acidity. When you digest highly acidic animal protein, your body releases lots of toxic wastes like urea and amonia that are detrimental to your body as these wastes go through your kidneys. Animal protein has a huge content of sulfur, which washes through the bones and disolves calcium out of your bones as it is being digested. Animal protein is also the most concentrated type of protein on the planet, so you get a huge surge of this every time you eat meat or dairy. Because the high acidity of this protein dissolves calcium out of your bones, you see the highest cases of osteoporosis (osteo - bone, porosis - porous (porous bones)) in countries that have the highest animal protein consumption rates. Osteoporosis barely even exists in countries like Thailand and China for instance, but they are huge problems for us in America. Animal protein also has no fiber content in it, so this highly concentrated, acidic protein absorbs very rapidly into your body, instead of happening slowly over several hours paired with fiber as it would with nuts and grains for instance -- plant protein is much gentler in the body because of this. I'll have to get to your post about us evolving to eat meat and high-performance athletes eating huge quantities of meat later. Source a reputable medical authority on this please. Ian Brighthope Prof., M.D., M.B.B.S., D.Ag.Sci Melbourne, Australia President of the Australasian College of Nutritional & Environmental Medicine. Professor Brighthope is a medical doctor & surgeon with over 20 years of practical clinical experience. He has specialized in Nutritional and Environmental Medicine, with a particular interest in heart disease, psychiatric disorders, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, arthritis, asthma, food and chemical sensitivities, diabetes and cancer. Andrew W Saul Ph.D, Therapeutic Nutrition Specialist and Author Rochester, New York Andrew Saul has a Ph.D. in Human Ethology and has been a consulting specialist in natural healing for over 30 years. As an author and veteran lecturer for three colleges his command of clinical nutrition is second to none. He is also the Assistant Editor of the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine. Michael A. Klaper, M.D., is an American physician, author, and vegan. Dr. Klaper graduated from the University of Illinois College of Medicine in 1972 and served his medical internship at Vancouver General Hospital with the University of British Columbia. Practiced acute care medicine, and eventually became certified in urgent care medicine. He served as director of a vegan health spa in Pompano Beach, Florida from the early 1990s, where he observed the healing powers of plant-based nutrition. Charlotte Gerson Founder of the Gerson Institute San Diego, California Charlotte Gerson is the daughter of Dr Max Gerson and the founder of the Gerson Institute. At 85 years of age she is vibrantly healthy and a strong advocate of nutritional healing. In her work at the Gerson Institute she is dedicated to healing and preventing chronic diseases using natural treatments that activate the bodies own healing response. David Wolfe World Authority on Raw Foods & Superfoods San Diego, California David Wolfe is a leading authority on Raw Food and Superfoods. Coming from a family of two medical doctors David has an interesting perspective on health and healing that confirms his belief in the immutable universal law 'you are what you eat'. David coaches Hollywood Producers and Celebrities as well as some of the worlds leading business people and entrepreneurs. Victor Zeines Holistic Dentist & Nutritionist Manhattan, New York Dr Zeines is a clinically trained Dentist who has been practicing Holistic Dentistry for over 25 years. He has a masters degree in nutrition and has studied acupressure, kinesiology and chiropractic care. Dr Zeines believes that poor nutrition is one of the major causes of tooth decay and gum disease which is a precursor to chronic disease and can be reversed with improved nutrition and supplementation. Phillip Day Investigative Journalist Kent, UK Phillip Day is an author, investigative journalist and international speaker. His work revolves around uncovering the most effective treatments available today and distributing that information to as many people as possible. Phillip believes in taking responsibility for ones own health and that "prevention is worth a ton of cure at a thousandth of the cost." Dr Dan Rogers Curing the "incurable" San Diego, California Dr Dan Rogers is a trained Medical Doctor and Naturopath. He has been treating patients using integrative medicine since the late 1970's. What makes him so unique is his success in treating patients that have been deemed "incurable" by medical practitioners or hospitals. Dr Rogers believes in the use of the Gerson Plus therapy which is a nutrition based form of detoxification and healing from within. Jerome Burne Medical Health Journalist London, UK Jerome Burne is one of Britain's leading medical health journalists and a valuable contributor to Medicine Today. In his writings, Jerome brings the latest breakthroughs in medical health to a wider audience. He likes to emphasize that science-based does not always mean drug-based and that natural approaches are achieving astounding success rates. Patrick Holford Founder of the Institute for Optimum Nutrition London, UK Patrick Holford is one of Britain's leading nutrition experts. Patrick is a pioneer in new approaches to health and nutrition, specialising in the field of mental health. In 1984 Patrick founded the Institute for Optimum Nutrition (ION) in London, with his mentor, twice Nobel Prize winner Dr Linus Pauling. Patrick believes that vibrant health and resistance to disease can be achieved through optimum nutrition. Dr Gert Schuitemaker Founder of the Ortho Europe Institute Gendringen, Netherlands Dr Schuitemaker is a traditionally trained Medical Doctor and Pharmacologist. He is the founder of the Ortho Institute of Europe and President of the International Society for Orthomolecular Medicine in Toronto, Canada. Dr Schuitemaker believes we must first look at how we can help the patient through nutrition and supplementation before any type of medical treatment begins. Arnaud Apoteker Biologist and organic food specialist Paris, France Arnaud is a biologist and is the head of the anti-GMO (Genetically Modified Organisms) Greenpeace campaign in France. His passion for food which is clean, healthy and good for you, occupies his life. His profession makes Arnaud uniquely qualified to give us his perspective on the many benefits of organics and the hidden dangers of genetically modified foods. You were asked for authority, so you sent us the bios of 20 or so random people? How on earth can you think this backs up your argument? Also, ITT: anecdotal evidence. No I don't think it does much, it's just all the information I have to back up some of what I am saying since I was asked. I could have provided nothing and just kept on talking about things that I have learned, picked up from studying, personal experiences and talking to professionals in the industries. Just providing what I can get a hold of at the moment in case anyone is interested in any of that. It would take me a lot more time than I have to dig up more information of works they have published, documentaries they have been in, speeches they have given, etc.
Looks like we just got Vegan'd. Nowhere in a single piece of accepted medical dietary research does it suggest half the things you describe as inherent to the digestion of animal products.
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It's so hard to have this kind of conversation on a board. The OP just gets attacked 9:1.
What I'll say to those cutting down the veagans and vegetarians is, at least they have done their homework. They have looked at sites, seen stats, watched videos of slaughter houses and have come to a decision to change their lifestyle (even if they came to those decisions by looking at very biased media). Everybody else comes on here and screams about how "it's nature" and a bunch of other BS with little actual knowledge on the subject. And anything people know about eating meat has mostly been preached to them since they were kids by parents who were raised on eating meat OR the dairy/egg industry and meat industry.
I'm not saying veagans have the right information but I'm not sure those who fight veagans have the right information either. Talking to health experts, they've told me how terrilbe milk is for the human body, then again you hear from mainstream media that soy causes cancers. There are two sides to every story, at least they've looked somewhere else. Veagans have actually looked into this subject specifically and formed an opinion based on facts they've read not just piecing together what your beliefs are.
It's a big decision to go veagan, a major lifestyle change. You don't do that without doing your reseach. You may think it's weird but get over it, what have you done in your life to make the world a better place? What have you ever fought for? For the newest Iphone? I haven't noticed anybody pick up on what the OP said about the environment. It takes 8 times more fossil fuel to produce a meat over vegetables.
One more thing Mke Tyson is vegetarian and look at that guy, he's huge. Can be just as healthy, it's all about a balanced diet.
So again, get over it, they don't want to eat meat or drink milk, I don't know why this bothers you so much.
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On September 21 2012 14:45 Blargh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 14:39 Zariel wrote:
I still don't understand why would you choose to be vegan if you have to end up taking supplements. If your diet does not give you the satisfactory nutrition, then your diet is clearly not working. I just end up being dumbfounded when I encounter a vegan who takes dietary supplements. (Really though, inside my head I just want to slap them silly to have such logic) I think it has been safely established that a vegan diet is not the optimal health diet. Anyone with half of G. W. Bush's IQ can realize that.
The floor is yours.
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On September 21 2012 14:39 Zariel wrote:
I still don't understand why would you choose to be vegan if you have to end up taking supplements. If your diet does not give you the satisfactory nutrition, then your diet is clearly not working. I just end up being dumbfounded when I encounter a vegan who takes dietary supplements. (Really though, inside my head I just want to slap them silly to have such logic)
You don't need dietary supplements on a vegan diet, but many people take them anyway. Look at all of the meat eaters that consume multivitamins and calcium pills religiously, despite being on a non-vegan diet. Most dietary supplements aren't necessary or healthy for either person anyway. When we take a synthetic pill of some kind, we are lucky to absorb and make ues of ~20% of the vitamin and mineral contents that are advertised because our bodies aren't able to digest them very well at all. In fact, often of the time people have gotten very sick and sent to the hospital because these pills aren't digesting correctly, or at all, and causing lots of internal problems.
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On September 21 2012 14:32 Staboteur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 14:03 spacemonkeyy wrote:
As someone who has studied this topic in depth I have a few points to add
-Ethically do as you please, it is your life
-Optimal nutrition has no regard for ethics.
-A lot of vegetarians/vegans actually don't eat many vegetables at all they are eating processed foods and grains- this is obviously unhelathy.
-Eating meat is always a easier way to get many of the nutrients you need as the forms are more bioavailable and concentrated. Let the animal get the nutrients from the their food then you get the nutrients from them. Example B-carotene and retinol (vitamin A), Heme-iron and non heme iron, K1 and K2.
-Eating any diet free from processed foods is going to be better than SAD. Processing of foods IS the problem.
-Most of the anti-meat studies are severely flawed
In conclusion for good health
Eat healthy animals, Eat healthy plants, Move about lots and Get plenty of sleep. Avoid toxic things. Wat! A lot of vegetarians/vegans don't eat many vegetables at all? Where the heck do you get that idea? I've been shifting towards conscious decisions on what I eat over the last half a year, and I'd estimate I eat a good 3-4 times more "real vegetables" than before that. I also have a few vegan friends, and they're pretty big on organic / homegrown cooking. It seems inconsistent that people who are making conscious choices on what they eat wouldn't bother to take it as far as eating healthily while they're at it. (This thread is awesome, though. Cool to see people like r.Evo actually making arguments for veganism make some sense without coming across as a total fucking whackjob. Keep at it, dudes! The people complaining about getting assaulted by vegan agendas voluntarily clicked this thread... methinks we're not as far from the idea of veganism as we think we are!)
Not all, what I meant is that instead of eating meat somef vego's substitute bad food (grains and processed foods).
On September 21 2012 14:31 Blargh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 14:03 spacemonkeyy wrote:
-Ethically do as you please, it is your life
That is worded rather poorly or is just a really stupid statement. If you meant "ethically do as you please, so long as it only affects your life." then it would be much better. But as is, you are basically saying that because I have my own life and because I believe I should be able to slaughter everyone and everything, torture people for the hell of it, and take pisses on people's lawns, I can do that. Ethics are obviously a factor in this argument, you should not ignore it. Obviously people believe different things. But, even if people believe different things, there are more efficient and effective ways of getting what one wants and often people do not think far enough ahead. Example: Steve believes that eating meat is okay because humans are superior (intellectually) and because he is happier when he eats meat, he eats it. Allen on the other hand believes it is not okay to eat meat because he, despite enjoying meat, does not think an animal's life is worth the small gain to happiness he gets from it. The two both get happiness from it, but believe different things. Steve doesn't think that it matters if an animal dies because the animal basically can't do anything else. But, what significance does intellect have if you do not use it for anything but to be happy? He is just the same as the cow that he ate. They both want to live happily*. Allen, though, takes into consideration an animal's life because he believes the cow has just as much of a right to live as he, himself does. If Steve wants to keep with his argument, he would have to have a greater purpose in life, otherwise his argument for doing his actions are rather poor. *animal happiness is a controversial topic, though I think overall, scientists believe most animals have similar feelings of "happiness" as humans. Do not quote me on this, this is just from recollection. Sorry, I sure hope that wasn't too long of a post on only one small part of your post.
I will clarify
Eating meat or not is a complex ethical decision.
Certainly if you think animals don't die in the production of your vege's your naive, then theres the whole ecosystem where animals provide the nutriets to plants when grown together (i.e not monoculture).
It is not a black and white decision.
If you decide eating meat isn't ethical then don't, if you think it is then fine.
But don't tell me that your avoiding meat for nutritional purposes.
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EPT
