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Orek, please go read NBronJame's post. He nailed it right on. Please go look at Cairo treaty as well on top of the San Fran. Korea has no reason to go to ICJ and even if they did, Japan has no chance of logically winning.
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On September 20 2012 22:30 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 21:09 fearus wrote:On September 20 2012 21:03 MK wrote:
What I really don't get is what the Chinese really want. Not speaking of the officials and politicians, but the people.
From what I understand, it's more about a "lack of revenge". Someone said in this thread that the US got revenge on Pearl Harbor and the Chinese got nothing. It's a very simple point of view; but in a way, it's actually what I feel when I talk to some friends in the mainland.
The (not so) funny thing is I believe that the Chinese people are hating Japan for exactly what they would have done if they could. It's crazy but I feel like it's about "an eye for an eye" right now. Chinese are saying that Japan have committed atrocities and the only way to settle everything down is to find a way to make the Japanese pay the whole price. And the problem is there is no price for a life (and we are talking about 20-30M lives). So now what? Take the islands, kill the Japs, throw a bomb or what?
This is my problem with these riots: yeah, you got arguments to destroy whatever you want but eventually, what are the solutions you are bringing up to build something new?
And I guess the day China come with a good answer to this question, this country will become a great and responsible nation. Taking a look at Germany's action post WW2 and its actions for the last 60 would be a good start. it's still not helping. There was a servermerge for the WoW PvP servers some day and there have been several reports that the english called the germans "nazis" etc. Not to say that the WoW players are a good representation of the UK population but I was still kind of disappointed because most people who are alive now were born after WW 2 and I thought Europe could move on. It just seems to have such a deep impact on everyone in europe that we will hear the echoes through all those years. I'm also not buying the "you can't ignore those documents from 100years ago". It's simply not helping. By this stance Austria could make claims to Italy, Germany to Poland, Poland to Belarus etc. The list is endless and if you go back far enough the Italians could make claims about everything the Roman Empire ever conquered. Both chinese governments simply did nothing as long as they believed there was nothing on line. So the US had control over it and then handed it over to Japan. But since there probably is oil on the line, suddenly (read: since 40 years) they dig up their old maps and start the turmoil. It is not helping. Either you want it and start your claims at a reasonable time (read shortly after the US garrisoned the islands) or you shut up. Disputing facts after they changed their owner 2times (jap -> us -> jap) isn't really helping.
The problem is that Treaties in China is a dirty word.
If someone come in your house and beat the crap out of you to force you buy drug for your kids, and then take all your valuable as compensation for him having to come over, and by the way, your front porch now belongs to him. That's not exactly a treaty. And that's exactly what the word "treaty" means in China since Opium War. It means bend over and take it in the arse.
Then after WWII US was acting as the divorce lawyer between China and Japan (and Korean and Japan), but in order to fight communism, US was also in bed with Japan. If someone sleeping with your wife deciding your divorce term, and you weren't even there when everything was decided, you'd be super pissed also.
And China, which I'm surprised to find that the state motto is not actually "never forgive, never forget" literally spent the next 40 years having wet dream of killing Americans... and everyone else for that matter.
(BTW, there was nothing "suddenly" about 40 year thing, because PRC was not officially recognized and part of UN, so it makes no sense. And why quibble over rocks when they are planning to kill everyone whole sell anyway? ROC on the other hand, was US's bitch, they wouldn't do anything that US not happy about)
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On September 20 2012 23:25 Louis8k8 wrote:
I feel sorry for the japanese tourists and occasional visitors in China atm. They're the kind who looks past stupid nationalistic grudges. And they're probably getting dragged into something they wished no longer exists.
Why would Japanese people have a Nationalistic grudge against China? Don't worry, if I beat you up I wouldn't hold a grudge against you.
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On September 20 2012 23:11 ddrddrddrddr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 23:02 Lafie wrote:On September 20 2012 21:09 fearus wrote:
Taking a look at Germany's action post WW2 and its actions for the last 60 would be a good start. The comparison of Japan's and German's apologies after WW2 are so useless in this content. With same logic we could go into why Finland should be getting armed and demanding loads of stuff if Russia did some minor things in our borders, or the islands around here... None of the WWII military leaders, or the persons who have been in command back then has nothing to do with this. Those are just bad excuses. Minor thing in our borders. Yeah they're angry because "with same logic" Japan did some minor thing in China's borders. And who the hell is demanding loads of stuff?
-. The United States administered them as part of the United States Civil Administration of the Ryukyu Islands from 1945 until 1972, when the islands reverted to Japanese control under the Okinawa Reversion Treaty between the United States and Japan.[5] (wikipedia)
So yes, the islands have been under Japan's control for last 40 years, and now they purchased them. Yes, the island has some oil near it, but as it's been part of Japan mainly, nothing major has changed. And at no point did I point someone demanding loads of stuff, just an example, but what all the nationalist riots say in China, they aren't just letting this go without demands.
They haven't gotten past a decent apology yet. You seem absolutely brainless.
I'm not sure if you here mean the Island case, or WWII case, in latter case, that is what I was pointing with my previous post. And if it's cause of the island, perhaps some sort of apology could be in spot, if those words really do warm nationalist Chinese hearts.
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On September 20 2012 23:34 Lafie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 23:11 ddrddrddrddr wrote:On September 20 2012 23:02 Lafie wrote:On September 20 2012 21:09 fearus wrote:
Taking a look at Germany's action post WW2 and its actions for the last 60 would be a good start. The comparison of Japan's and German's apologies after WW2 are so useless in this content. With same logic we could go into why Finland should be getting armed and demanding loads of stuff if Russia did some minor things in our borders, or the islands around here... None of the WWII military leaders, or the persons who have been in command back then has nothing to do with this. Those are just bad excuses. Minor thing in our borders. Yeah they're angry because "with same logic" Japan did some minor thing in China's borders. And who the hell is demanding loads of stuff? -. The United States administered them as part of the United States Civil Administration of the Ryukyu Islands from 1945 until 1972, when the islands reverted to Japanese control under the Okinawa Reversion Treaty between the United States and Japan.[5] (wikipedia) So yes, the islands have been under Japan's control for last 40 years, and now they purchased them. Yes, the island has some oil near it, but as it's been part of Japan mainly, nothing major has changed. And at no point did I point someone demanding loads of stuff, just an example, but what all the nationalist riots say in China, they aren't just letting this go without demands. Show nested quote +
They haven't gotten past a decent apology yet. You seem absolutely brainless.
I'm not sure if you here mean the Island case, or WWII case, in latter case, that is what I was pointing with my previous post. And if it's cause of the island, perhaps some sort of apology could be in spot, if those words really do warm nationalist Chinese hearts.
The whole thing is fucked up because during war, US and China(ROC) were allies, and Japan was the enemy. But when all these are decided, US and Japan were allies, and China(PRC) was the enemy. So conflicting interests were everywhere, and US decided to side with their current ally (understandable), while China got boned even though they won the WWII (super pissed).
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On September 20 2012 23:27 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 22:30 Hryul wrote:On September 20 2012 21:09 fearus wrote:On September 20 2012 21:03 MK wrote:
What I really don't get is what the Chinese really want. Not speaking of the officials and politicians, but the people.
From what I understand, it's more about a "lack of revenge". Someone said in this thread that the US got revenge on Pearl Harbor and the Chinese got nothing. It's a very simple point of view; but in a way, it's actually what I feel when I talk to some friends in the mainland.
The (not so) funny thing is I believe that the Chinese people are hating Japan for exactly what they would have done if they could. It's crazy but I feel like it's about "an eye for an eye" right now. Chinese are saying that Japan have committed atrocities and the only way to settle everything down is to find a way to make the Japanese pay the whole price. And the problem is there is no price for a life (and we are talking about 20-30M lives). So now what? Take the islands, kill the Japs, throw a bomb or what?
This is my problem with these riots: yeah, you got arguments to destroy whatever you want but eventually, what are the solutions you are bringing up to build something new?
And I guess the day China come with a good answer to this question, this country will become a great and responsible nation. Taking a look at Germany's action post WW2 and its actions for the last 60 would be a good start. it's still not helping. There was a servermerge for the WoW PvP servers some day and there have been several reports that the english called the germans "nazis" etc. Not to say that the WoW players are a good representation of the UK population but I was still kind of disappointed because most people who are alive now were born after WW 2 and I thought Europe could move on. It just seems to have such a deep impact on everyone in europe that we will hear the echoes through all those years. I'm also not buying the "you can't ignore those documents from 100years ago". It's simply not helping. By this stance Austria could make claims to Italy, Germany to Poland, Poland to Belarus etc. The list is endless and if you go back far enough the Italians could make claims about everything the Roman Empire ever conquered. Both chinese governments simply did nothing as long as they believed there was nothing on line. So the US had control over it and then handed it over to Japan. But since there probably is oil on the line, suddenly (read: since 40 years) they dig up their old maps and start the turmoil. It is not helping. Either you want it and start your claims at a reasonable time (read shortly after the US garrisoned the islands) or you shut up. Disputing facts after they changed their owner 2times (jap -> us -> jap) isn't really helping. The problem is that Treaties in China is a dirty word. If someone come in your house and beat the crap out of you to force you buy drug for your kids, and then take all your valuable as compensation for him having to come over, and by the way, your front porch now belongs to him. That's not exactly a treaty. And that's exactly what the word "treaty" means in China since Opium War. It means bend over and take it in the arse. Then after WWII US was acting as the divorce lawyer between China and Japan (and Korean and Japan), but in order to fight communism, US was also in bed with Japan. If someone sleeping with your wife deciding your divorce term, and you weren't even there when everything was decided, you'd be super pissed also. And China, which I'm surprised to find that the state motto is not actually "never forgive, never forget" literally spent the next 40 years having wet dream of killing Americans... and everyone else for that matter. (BTW, there was nothing "suddenly" about 40 year thing, because PRC was not officially recognized and part of UN, so it makes no sense. And why quibble over rocks when they are planning to kill everyone whole sell anyway? ROC on the other hand, was US's bitch, they wouldn't do anything that US not happy about)
Would you please stop talking about war crimes as they were ordinary crimes. I am fully aware that the Japanese army committed horrible war crimes against both the Koreans and the Chinese. Which is part of the reason why the situation is so heated.
But the Chinese seem to forget that they weren't the deciding factor in the victory over the Japanese forces. The US was. And the US followed their own interests in setting up the post war order. So it's all about power and who was holding it at the moment the important decisions were made.
I am not arguing about who is the "rightful" owner because I do think that between countries this is not the way problems are solved. I am simply confused/amused why maps or treaties should be an argument in this.
Just a thought: If someone would find a proof that the deciding politicians were bribed to sell Alaska do you really think the US would hand it back to Russia? Because the Selling treaty was void.
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On September 21 2012 00:06 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 23:27 ragz_gt wrote:On September 20 2012 22:30 Hryul wrote:On September 20 2012 21:09 fearus wrote:On September 20 2012 21:03 MK wrote:
What I really don't get is what the Chinese really want. Not speaking of the officials and politicians, but the people.
From what I understand, it's more about a "lack of revenge". Someone said in this thread that the US got revenge on Pearl Harbor and the Chinese got nothing. It's a very simple point of view; but in a way, it's actually what I feel when I talk to some friends in the mainland.
The (not so) funny thing is I believe that the Chinese people are hating Japan for exactly what they would have done if they could. It's crazy but I feel like it's about "an eye for an eye" right now. Chinese are saying that Japan have committed atrocities and the only way to settle everything down is to find a way to make the Japanese pay the whole price. And the problem is there is no price for a life (and we are talking about 20-30M lives). So now what? Take the islands, kill the Japs, throw a bomb or what?
This is my problem with these riots: yeah, you got arguments to destroy whatever you want but eventually, what are the solutions you are bringing up to build something new?
And I guess the day China come with a good answer to this question, this country will become a great and responsible nation. Taking a look at Germany's action post WW2 and its actions for the last 60 would be a good start. it's still not helping. There was a servermerge for the WoW PvP servers some day and there have been several reports that the english called the germans "nazis" etc. Not to say that the WoW players are a good representation of the UK population but I was still kind of disappointed because most people who are alive now were born after WW 2 and I thought Europe could move on. It just seems to have such a deep impact on everyone in europe that we will hear the echoes through all those years. I'm also not buying the "you can't ignore those documents from 100years ago". It's simply not helping. By this stance Austria could make claims to Italy, Germany to Poland, Poland to Belarus etc. The list is endless and if you go back far enough the Italians could make claims about everything the Roman Empire ever conquered. Both chinese governments simply did nothing as long as they believed there was nothing on line. So the US had control over it and then handed it over to Japan. But since there probably is oil on the line, suddenly (read: since 40 years) they dig up their old maps and start the turmoil. It is not helping. Either you want it and start your claims at a reasonable time (read shortly after the US garrisoned the islands) or you shut up. Disputing facts after they changed their owner 2times (jap -> us -> jap) isn't really helping. The problem is that Treaties in China is a dirty word. If someone come in your house and beat the crap out of you to force you buy drug for your kids, and then take all your valuable as compensation for him having to come over, and by the way, your front porch now belongs to him. That's not exactly a treaty. And that's exactly what the word "treaty" means in China since Opium War. It means bend over and take it in the arse. Then after WWII US was acting as the divorce lawyer between China and Japan (and Korean and Japan), but in order to fight communism, US was also in bed with Japan. If someone sleeping with your wife deciding your divorce term, and you weren't even there when everything was decided, you'd be super pissed also. And China, which I'm surprised to find that the state motto is not actually "never forgive, never forget" literally spent the next 40 years having wet dream of killing Americans... and everyone else for that matter. (BTW, there was nothing "suddenly" about 40 year thing, because PRC was not officially recognized and part of UN, so it makes no sense. And why quibble over rocks when they are planning to kill everyone whole sell anyway? ROC on the other hand, was US's bitch, they wouldn't do anything that US not happy about) Would you please stop talking about war crimes as they were ordinary crimes. I am fully aware that the Japanese army committed horrible war crimes against both the Koreans and the Chinese. Which is part of the reason, why the situation is so heated. But the Chinese seem to forget that they weren't the deciding factor in the victory over the Japanese forces. The US was. And the US followed their own interests in setting up the post war order. So it's all about power and who was holding it at the moment the important decisions were made. I am not arguing about who is the "rightful" owner because I do think that between countries this is not the way problems are solved. I am simply confused/amused why maps or treaties should be an argument in this. Just a thought: If someone would find a proof that the deciding politicians were bribed to sell Alaska do you really think the US would hand them back to Russia? Because the Selling treaty was void.
Oh I totally agree. Of course Japan wouldn't give anything back, that's why we are in this spot. Just saying there are reasons why it's such a clusterfuck. I'm not taking sides (meaning the China Japan stuff, the burning and looting thing got to stop) because it's too fucked up for me to to begin sorting through anything. But understanding why people are so riled up, and just tell people "dude, 70 years ago, chill out" doesn't do anything.
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On September 21 2012 00:08 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 00:06 Hryul wrote:On September 20 2012 23:27 ragz_gt wrote:On September 20 2012 22:30 Hryul wrote:On September 20 2012 21:09 fearus wrote:On September 20 2012 21:03 MK wrote:
What I really don't get is what the Chinese really want. Not speaking of the officials and politicians, but the people.
From what I understand, it's more about a "lack of revenge". Someone said in this thread that the US got revenge on Pearl Harbor and the Chinese got nothing. It's a very simple point of view; but in a way, it's actually what I feel when I talk to some friends in the mainland.
The (not so) funny thing is I believe that the Chinese people are hating Japan for exactly what they would have done if they could. It's crazy but I feel like it's about "an eye for an eye" right now. Chinese are saying that Japan have committed atrocities and the only way to settle everything down is to find a way to make the Japanese pay the whole price. And the problem is there is no price for a life (and we are talking about 20-30M lives). So now what? Take the islands, kill the Japs, throw a bomb or what?
This is my problem with these riots: yeah, you got arguments to destroy whatever you want but eventually, what are the solutions you are bringing up to build something new?
And I guess the day China come with a good answer to this question, this country will become a great and responsible nation. Taking a look at Germany's action post WW2 and its actions for the last 60 would be a good start. it's still not helping. There was a servermerge for the WoW PvP servers some day and there have been several reports that the english called the germans "nazis" etc. Not to say that the WoW players are a good representation of the UK population but I was still kind of disappointed because most people who are alive now were born after WW 2 and I thought Europe could move on. It just seems to have such a deep impact on everyone in europe that we will hear the echoes through all those years. I'm also not buying the "you can't ignore those documents from 100years ago". It's simply not helping. By this stance Austria could make claims to Italy, Germany to Poland, Poland to Belarus etc. The list is endless and if you go back far enough the Italians could make claims about everything the Roman Empire ever conquered. Both chinese governments simply did nothing as long as they believed there was nothing on line. So the US had control over it and then handed it over to Japan. But since there probably is oil on the line, suddenly (read: since 40 years) they dig up their old maps and start the turmoil. It is not helping. Either you want it and start your claims at a reasonable time (read shortly after the US garrisoned the islands) or you shut up. Disputing facts after they changed their owner 2times (jap -> us -> jap) isn't really helping. The problem is that Treaties in China is a dirty word. If someone come in your house and beat the crap out of you to force you buy drug for your kids, and then take all your valuable as compensation for him having to come over, and by the way, your front porch now belongs to him. That's not exactly a treaty. And that's exactly what the word "treaty" means in China since Opium War. It means bend over and take it in the arse. Then after WWII US was acting as the divorce lawyer between China and Japan (and Korean and Japan), but in order to fight communism, US was also in bed with Japan. If someone sleeping with your wife deciding your divorce term, and you weren't even there when everything was decided, you'd be super pissed also. And China, which I'm surprised to find that the state motto is not actually "never forgive, never forget" literally spent the next 40 years having wet dream of killing Americans... and everyone else for that matter. (BTW, there was nothing "suddenly" about 40 year thing, because PRC was not officially recognized and part of UN, so it makes no sense. And why quibble over rocks when they are planning to kill everyone whole sell anyway? ROC on the other hand, was US's bitch, they wouldn't do anything that US not happy about) Would you please stop talking about war crimes as they were ordinary crimes. I am fully aware that the Japanese army committed horrible war crimes against both the Koreans and the Chinese. Which is part of the reason, why the situation is so heated. But the Chinese seem to forget that they weren't the deciding factor in the victory over the Japanese forces. The US was. And the US followed their own interests in setting up the post war order. So it's all about power and who was holding it at the moment the important decisions were made. I am not arguing about who is the "rightful" owner because I do think that between countries this is not the way problems are solved. I am simply confused/amused why maps or treaties should be an argument in this. Just a thought: If someone would find a proof that the deciding politicians were bribed to sell Alaska do you really think the US would hand them back to Russia? Because the Selling treaty was void. Oh I totally agree. Of course Japan wouldn't give anything back, that's why we are in this spot. Just saying there are reasons why it's such a clusterfuck. I'm not taking sides (meaning the China Japan stuff, the burning and looting thing got to stop) because it's too fucked up for me to to begin sorting through anything. But understanding why people are so riled up, and just tell people "dude, 70 years ago, chill out" doesn't do anything.
Mhm i'm not sure. Chilling is always good 
Other countries also accepted that they won't get anything for the territory they lost in a war. (Even though most times they were on the losing side.) So for me this is just a show of force and maybe a testing what the Chinese can come away with against the country with the most advanced technology in the region. + Show Spoiler +Yeah I know, S-Korea, but J > S-K wrt GDP.
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On September 20 2012 23:34 Lafie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 23:11 ddrddrddrddr wrote:On September 20 2012 23:02 Lafie wrote:On September 20 2012 21:09 fearus wrote:
Taking a look at Germany's action post WW2 and its actions for the last 60 would be a good start. The comparison of Japan's and German's apologies after WW2 are so useless in this content. With same logic we could go into why Finland should be getting armed and demanding loads of stuff if Russia did some minor things in our borders, or the islands around here... None of the WWII military leaders, or the persons who have been in command back then has nothing to do with this. Those are just bad excuses. Minor thing in our borders. Yeah they're angry because "with same logic" Japan did some minor thing in China's borders. And who the hell is demanding loads of stuff? -. The United States administered them as part of the United States Civil Administration of the Ryukyu Islands from 1945 until 1972, when the islands reverted to Japanese control under the Okinawa Reversion Treaty between the United States and Japan.[5] (wikipedia) So yes, the islands have been under Japan's control for last 40 years, and now they purchased them. Yes, the island has some oil near it, but as it's been part of Japan mainly, nothing major has changed. And at no point did I point someone demanding loads of stuff, just an example, but what all the nationalist riots say in China, they aren't just letting this go without demands. Show nested quote +
They haven't gotten past a decent apology yet. You seem absolutely brainless.
I'm not sure if you here mean the Island case, or WWII case, in latter case, that is what I was pointing with my previous post. And if it's cause of the island, perhaps some sort of apology could be in spot, if those words really do warm nationalist Chinese hearts.
You need to actually look up what is going on. If it was as simple as a wiki reference can explain, then it would have been much easier for every other countries lol
The island in dispute right now is Diaoyu Island,
The Diaoyu Island had been discovered by China and according to Max Huber, China should have the ownership since at ming dynesty, China had records of maintaining the island.
This is agreed by Taiwan as well.
then sometime later, China assigned The Diaoyu island as a part of Taiwan (which then was still part of China) as recorded by a chinese official on his way to Japan.
at 1895, Japan claimed that the island should not belong to China because they do not see China had sufficient establishment for it to belong to China according to the internation law and put it as part of japan .
after some war, China lost and signed a treaty that cut Taiwan and associated islands to Japan. This treaty was abandoned later on when Japan lost in WW2
Then after the wars and the treaties signed just made it even more confusing because somehow USA thought the island should belong to Japan even though the treaty between china and japan was already abandoned.
Treaty of Peace with Japan then kind of contradicted with some parts of the Potsdam Proclamation and Cairo Declaration and so china and taiwan said it should not be in effect.
The problem is, while some documents show it belongs to China, some documents from China elsewhere such as a map would put it in Japan's territory. mind you, some documents are dated back around 300 years ago, whether it belongs to china or japan can be as simple as the name is in Chinese or Japanese
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Yeah the outcome of this dispute is not going to be resolved with a paper trail as both sides have "claim". It's going to come down to military capability in which case you may as well just hand them over to ROC/PRC now because uncle Sam has enough shit on his plate as does NOT want anymore.
Edit: forgot the Sam for uncle Sam fail =_=
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On September 21 2012 01:35 ShadeR wrote:
Yeah on the outcome of this dispute is not going to be resolved with a paper trail as both sides have "claim". It's going to come down to military capability in which case you may as well just hand them over to ROC/PRC now because uncle has enough shit on his plate as does NOT want anymore.
Uncle has a big appetite, and he has cousins living across the river.
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On September 21 2012 01:35 ShadeR wrote:
Yeah the outcome of this dispute is not going to be resolved with a paper trail as both sides have "claim". It's going to come down to military capability in which case you may as well just hand them over to ROC/PRC now because uncle has enough shit on his plate as does NOT want anymore.
Ugh shits getting down over here too. So much public unrest.
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Uncle just got back from the doctors. He's got diabetes. He knows he needs to change old habits.
+ Show Spoiler +lol i wonder where this will lead.
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The last thing I need is a fucking war on my plate. That is all I care about now.
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On September 21 2012 00:06 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 23:27 ragz_gt wrote:On September 20 2012 22:30 Hryul wrote:On September 20 2012 21:09 fearus wrote:On September 20 2012 21:03 MK wrote:
What I really don't get is what the Chinese really want. Not speaking of the officials and politicians, but the people.
From what I understand, it's more about a "lack of revenge". Someone said in this thread that the US got revenge on Pearl Harbor and the Chinese got nothing. It's a very simple point of view; but in a way, it's actually what I feel when I talk to some friends in the mainland.
The (not so) funny thing is I believe that the Chinese people are hating Japan for exactly what they would have done if they could. It's crazy but I feel like it's about "an eye for an eye" right now. Chinese are saying that Japan have committed atrocities and the only way to settle everything down is to find a way to make the Japanese pay the whole price. And the problem is there is no price for a life (and we are talking about 20-30M lives). So now what? Take the islands, kill the Japs, throw a bomb or what?
This is my problem with these riots: yeah, you got arguments to destroy whatever you want but eventually, what are the solutions you are bringing up to build something new?
And I guess the day China come with a good answer to this question, this country will become a great and responsible nation. Taking a look at Germany's action post WW2 and its actions for the last 60 would be a good start. it's still not helping. There was a servermerge for the WoW PvP servers some day and there have been several reports that the english called the germans "nazis" etc. Not to say that the WoW players are a good representation of the UK population but I was still kind of disappointed because most people who are alive now were born after WW 2 and I thought Europe could move on. It just seems to have such a deep impact on everyone in europe that we will hear the echoes through all those years. I'm also not buying the "you can't ignore those documents from 100years ago". It's simply not helping. By this stance Austria could make claims to Italy, Germany to Poland, Poland to Belarus etc. The list is endless and if you go back far enough the Italians could make claims about everything the Roman Empire ever conquered. Both chinese governments simply did nothing as long as they believed there was nothing on line. So the US had control over it and then handed it over to Japan. But since there probably is oil on the line, suddenly (read: since 40 years) they dig up their old maps and start the turmoil. It is not helping. Either you want it and start your claims at a reasonable time (read shortly after the US garrisoned the islands) or you shut up. Disputing facts after they changed their owner 2times (jap -> us -> jap) isn't really helping. The problem is that Treaties in China is a dirty word. If someone come in your house and beat the crap out of you to force you buy drug for your kids, and then take all your valuable as compensation for him having to come over, and by the way, your front porch now belongs to him. That's not exactly a treaty. And that's exactly what the word "treaty" means in China since Opium War. It means bend over and take it in the arse. Then after WWII US was acting as the divorce lawyer between China and Japan (and Korean and Japan), but in order to fight communism, US was also in bed with Japan. If someone sleeping with your wife deciding your divorce term, and you weren't even there when everything was decided, you'd be super pissed also. And China, which I'm surprised to find that the state motto is not actually "never forgive, never forget" literally spent the next 40 years having wet dream of killing Americans... and everyone else for that matter. (BTW, there was nothing "suddenly" about 40 year thing, because PRC was not officially recognized and part of UN, so it makes no sense. And why quibble over rocks when they are planning to kill everyone whole sell anyway? ROC on the other hand, was US's bitch, they wouldn't do anything that US not happy about) Would you please stop talking about war crimes as they were ordinary crimes. I am fully aware that the Japanese army committed horrible war crimes against both the Koreans and the Chinese. Which is part of the reason why the situation is so heated. But the Chinese seem to forget that they weren't the deciding factor in the victory over the Japanese forces. The US was. And the US followed their own interests in setting up the post war order. So it's all about power and who was holding it at the moment the important decisions were made.
....
The US was a deciding factor in winning the war, but you seem to forget that without China to tie up some 3 million+ Japanese soldiers, the war might have been quite a bit different?
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Jeez, looting shops and demolishing cars over a war fought 70 years ago and a couple of rocks? My wife is from the Balkans, and although the war is a lot more recent there people don't hold that bad grudges against each other anymore.
We had a little Chinese/Japanese incident in the house I lived, my Japanese flat was seriously harassed by my Chinese flatmate, in a weekend when they were alone in the house... the Chinese guy (this is a guy with a PhD and an academic position in China, not some low-level idiot) cited as a reason 'revenge for what the Japanese did to his family in WWII'.
This really shows how deep the hatred is rooted, that you decide to assault some random person just because she's from the wrong country. Not really cool, hope everything will cool down...
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On September 20 2012 23:10 NBronJames wrote:
I often hear japanese tell the Koreans and Chinese to "get over it, it's in the past". In the case of dokdo, Japanese should get over it and quit using this as a scapegoat for their own falling economy and inept politicians.
It's always funny how people who haven't fought in wars bitch about 'kill this country, kill that country, kill their citizens!' when something like this happens in China-Korea-Japan area, while the people involved in it treat it as a 'thing in the past'.
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On September 21 2012 02:36 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 23:10 NBronJames wrote:
I often hear japanese tell the Koreans and Chinese to "get over it, it's in the past". In the case of dokdo, Japanese should get over it and quit using this as a scapegoat for their own falling economy and inept politicians.
It's always funny how people who haven't fought in wars bitch about 'kill this country, kill that country, kill their citizens!' when something like this happens in China-Korea-Japan area, while the people involved in it treat it as a 'thing in the past'.
Pretty sure the people being angry over it are doing so because they were related to the the people involved in the war.
And that these people are dead due to the war.
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On September 20 2012 14:57 MisterFred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 14:43 fishjie wrote:On September 20 2012 12:59 zhurai wrote:On September 20 2012 12:28 fishjie wrote:
i'm a chinese guy and understand the hate for japan. they raped everybody in asia (literally too, quite terribad) and try to cover it up in their history textbooks. but at this rate, with china going all aggro on its neighbors, i woudln't be surprised if china became the new world war 2 japan. and i will be a very sad panda if that happens =/ except do you think that the current (i.e. youngest) generation of japan... the ones that actually "raped everyone in asia"? + Show Spoiler +
No. which is why war is stupid or blaming everything on the _whole japanese race_ is a fucking retarded and braindead idea
doesn't matter, what japan did was inexcusable. that is why every asian nation still hates them to this day. if you're not asian then you wouldn't really understand. closest analogy is the middle east hating the united states. totally understandable, even if the current generation of usa has no ill will towards the people in the middle east. doesn't make up for the sins of the past. Bing! Racism based on the delusion that a country is an entity with an existence independent of the individuals that make up that country. Throw in a little ad populum assumption of the righteousness of one's cause, then another justification based on other people having the same kind of moronic logic. Two groups of fools are better than one! Best part is how if you're not asian we wouldn't understand, see these other non-asians are just like us. Can't parody the idiocy better than that, good job.
did I say that china's violent protests were ok? no. in fact, i said their actions are showing they could soon become the next ww2 japan. which would be bad. so whose the idiot now? that's right, you are... now kindly shut the fuck up.
anyway, like i said, what japan did was inexcusable, and the main reason the hate still exists is because they have not apologized for their actions. nazi germany did horrific things, but they have since done a complete 180, outlawed any and all references to nazis and white supremacy there, and fully admitted their wrongdoing. japan has not.
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Update #6: One expat friend in Beijing just told me about a prank he played on his fellow English teacher/tutor:
--So he got really drunk, and we ended up tying a Japanese headband on him
+ Show Spoiler +
--And dressing him in a white T-shirt that read
--"天皇陛下萬歲" (Tenno Heika Banzai, or ten thousand years to the Japanese Emperor) with a huge Japanese flag on the front of the shirt
--Then we turned him loose in the late night drunken crowds up by Sanlitun, near the Japanese Embassy
--He didn't show up for work today
omg this prank was crazy, they killed an innocent people
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EPT
