Of course this movie is a peace of shit full of hate and disrespect, but if I insult you, even if you're hardly offended, you won't cross the border and kill the Starsbourg's major nor burning the french flag roaring "Töten wir alle französish !!".
You'll yell, riot, prosecute me, threaten me at the most.
The reaction of this minority is disproportionate and violent against innocent people who didn't insult them.
[/QUOTE]
to be honest i dont think its entirely their (the muslim people etc) own fault that the middle-east became so damn extreme. so i guess we, or should i say the governmants have their part in it too.
Americans and Europeans are no doubt looking at the protests over the "film", recalling the even more violent protests during the Danish cartoon affair, and shaking their heads one more at the seeming irrationality and backwardness of Muslims, who would let a work of "art", particularly one as trivial as this, drive them to mass protests and violence.
Yet Muslims in Egypt, Libya and around the world equally look at American actions, from sanctions against and then an invasion of Iraq that killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and sent the country back to the Stone Age, to unflinching support for Israel and all the Arab authoritarian regimes (secular and royal alike) and drone strikes that always seem to kill unintended civilians "by mistake", and wonder with equal bewilderment how "we" can be so barbaric and uncivilised.
Russia receives little better grades on this card, whether for its brutality in Afghanistan during the Soviet era, in Chechnya today, or its open support of Assad's murderous regime.
Meanwhile, the most jingoistic and hate-filled representatives of each society grow stronger with each attack, with little end in sight.
...
As I flew home yesterday from Europe, unaware of what had transpired in Libya, I read through the 2008 report by the Cairo Institute for Human Rights Studies, titled "From Exporting Terrorism to Exporting Oppression: Human Rights in the Arab Region".
The report described the often unbearable levels of abuse suffered by citizens across the region is one of the most depressing reads imaginable. Every single government, from Morocco to Iraq, was defined by the systematic abuse of its citizens, denial of their most basic rights, and rampant corruption and violence. And in every case, such abuses and violence have been enabled by Western, Russian and other foreign interests.
Simply put, each and all the policies and actions described in the report - and 2008 was no better or worse than the years that proceeded or followed it - are as much forms of terror as the destruction of the World Trade Centre, invasion of Iraq, or attack on the US Consulate in Benghazi.
In fact, the Middle East and North Africa have for over half a century constituted one of the largest and most pernicious terror systems of the modern era. And the US, Europe, Russia, and now increasingly China have been accessories, co-conspirators, and often initiators of this terror throughout the period, working hand-in-hand with local governments to repress their peoples and ensure that wealth and power remain arrogated by a trusted few.
And when you actually research this stuff more deeply, it only gets more and more depressing.
The classic:
"The white man did it."
I wonder if the left-wingers realize just how offensive they really are when they talk about muslim people (Which is the sole unifying element from the middle-east to Morroco) and treat them like children.
How cruel one must be to deny another human, equality.
Suddenly, muslims are made out to be "not-quite-human," little more than automatons that await input from the white man, before they can react. Unable to control their own destiny, never have agency.
It is no surprise that it is those same people that lead the charge on:
"Muslims can't handle democracy!"
As if they are subhumans.
Hold all people to the same standard as you would a westerner. How would you react if Americans had executed muslims because they burned a flag?
Stop looking at muslims and think "well, they don't know any better." They are human beings, treat them like it. Hold them up to equal standards. If all of mankind is equal, why would you pretend that we do not all carry the same weight of acting right and moral?
Regardless of race, place of birth, or religion, all people should be held up to the same standard.
I wouldn't mind if USA tested some nuclear bombs about now and this is coming from someone who used to be rather pacifistic. There doesn't seem to be a solution. Acting apathetic won't solve anything either.
sraeli filmmaker in hiding after anti-Islam movie sparks deadly Libya, Egypt protests Film by Sam Bacile, who self-identifies as an Israeli Jew, led to protests at the U.S. consulate in Libya and the U.S. Embassy in Cairo; one American staffer killed in clashes.
Bacile, a California real estate developer in his fifties who identifies himself as an Israeli Jew, said he believes the movie will help his native land by exposing Islam's flaws to the world. "
"Islam is a cancer, period," he repeatedly said in a solemn, accented tone.
The two-hour movie, "Innocence of Muslims," cost $5 million to make and was financed with the help of more than 100 Jewish donors, said Bacile, who wrote and directed it.
Op should change this. Bacile was a name used to cover up his real identity. He is most likely not Jewish.
I can agree that he hides his true identity, the last person to even draw a cartoon picture of muhammad was killed by muslim extremists over in denmark.
Also to Sourna, I'm not sure what your argueing but their has been anti-American and anti-Jewish protests all over the middle east from the film. The attack might have been sparked by that, or by a september 11th anniversary plot by terrorists, it doesn't matter.
People are burning flags and trying to scale Embassy walls because Muhammad is being insulted. That is ridiculous.
People have a right to be angry, people do not have a right to violence. Just because people cannot take a joke does not give them the right to try and inflict harm upon ambassadors.
You do realize that the ones who "inflicted harm upon the ambassador", as in "killed him", did so not because of the movie but because they were terrorists who wanted to kill him regardless of the movie? Did you even read Souma's posts? There's a difference between the protesters who are demonstrating because of the movie and the actual terrorist act which had nothing to do with it.
Yes I am not just talking about Lybia
In Yemen, demonstrators breached a security wall at the U.S. Embassy as several thousand people protested outside. Four protesters died during clashes with security forces outside the embassy, according to Yemeni security officials. Twenty-four security force members were reported injured, as were 11 protesters, according to Yemen's Defense Ministry, security officials and eyewitnesses. -- In Egypt, site of one of the largest, longest-lasting protests, at least 13 civilians and six police officers were injured Thursday, according to Egyptian government officials. Throngs continued to pack the area in front of the Cairo embassy on Friday morning, as a large fire burned and security guarded the area. The instability in Egypt is a primary concern to U.S. President Barack Obama, who warned in an interview with Telemundo that it would be "a real big problem" if Egypt's leaders fail to protect American interests there. -- In Tunisia and Morocco, protesters massed in front of U.S. embassies. -- In Gaza City, Palestinians demonstrated outside U.N. headquarters, and about 200 Palestinians protested the film at the Palestine Legislative Council building. In one instance, Palestinian men burned a U.S. flag. -- In Tel Aviv, Israel, about 50 people demonstrated in front of the U.S. Embassy. -- Iranians protested near the Swiss Embassy in Tehran on Thursday. Switzerland represents U.S. interests in Iran, since Washington and Tehran do not have diplomatic relations. Up to 500 people chanted "Death to America!" and called for death to the director of the movie. The Islamic Propagation Coordination Council, meanwhile, has issued a statement calling for rallies across Iran on Friday "to protest Zionist-U.S. plots against Muslim and Islamic values," the state-run IRNA news agency reported. -- In Iraq, specifically in the predominantly Shiite area of eastern Baghdad known as Sadr City, hundreds of protesters hit the streets to protest the film. They chanted, "America is the enemy of the people," with some burning an American flag. Other followers of radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr also protested in the provinces of Najaf and Karbala. So far, the violence has not spread to Afghanistan, where there is a high potential for outrage to erupt into destabilizing chaos. Obama and his Afghan counterpart, Hamid Karzai, have expressed their commitment to prevent that from happening. The Afghan government has ordered an indefinite block of YouTube to prevent people there from watching the clips and staging violent protests. YouTube has already restricted access to the video.
Yemen (and to a lesser extent Egypt) are pretty problematic. You can condemn them if you'd like. Just don't be bigoted towards people who aren't involved in the matter, as most people have been. But before people blindly direct their rage, it'd be nice if everyone actually took the time to educate themselves on U.S. - Middle Eastern relations. The anti-American rage that a lot of Muslims harbor stems much further than a movie. We're merely just giving them more reasons to hate us, as if they didn't have enough already.
To the best of my knowledge i know it is against Islam to depict Muhammad in any way. This film crosses that line and I can understand the outrage. The film maker is not Islamic however and does not have to follow the rules of that religion. Like it or not he is within his rights according to the U.S. constitution to release a video such as the one he did. People must accept that.
It is against Islam to depict Muhammad, but there are many depictions of Muhammad that people do not care about. There's a depiction of him on the U.S. Supreme Court building, and Iran has many depictions of him as well. Most people are outraged that it is offensive, but the ones disturbing the peace are a minority (compared to the overall Muslim population, the amount of protestors is miniscule, and the ones utilizing violence are pale in comparison). Those inciting violence should definitely be condemned.
I have accepted the fact that most middle-eastern countries dislike us. I don't know why, and I do not care to learn why so long as the dispute remains verbal. Even burning flags and chanting "Death to America" does not bother me. When violence gets introduced, I care.
People are calling for the film makers head, and his life is in danger. It's sickening.
Blindly accepting their dislike does no one any good. If you're so averse to violence you have an obligation to know why they hate us. We've perpetrated more violence and killed tons more innocent people in the Middle East since the onset of the Cold War than they ever have, but I won't get into specifics because that would be straying off-topic.
I don't care why they hate us. Whatever reasons they have are just shortcomings that they cannot see past. Hate comes from weakness, not strength.
It's like trying to figure out why the North Koreans hate us, doesn't matter. It's my personal opinion that they do it as a scapegoat to make their leaders seem more tolerable.
zalz, I think you're right for the most part, but I think there's still the old occidental arrogance in the suggestion that democracy is superior to the political systems they use over there, as if there was a linear progression from dictatorships to the democracy.
It's not so much that they're not "good enough" for democracy, it's that they have a different culture that doesn't necessarily naturally lean toward it.
So when will the US finally do something about this? I'm not saying aggressive action, I mean evacuating the embassies and such. Why is nothing being done to protect the embassies? So confusing... If the country wants to live like that, fuck em. Pack up and gtfo and let them live in their fictional world.
On September 14 2012 22:02 Souma wrote: For anyone who cares, I found an enlightening article on why these events occur.
A couple excerpts:
Americans and Europeans are no doubt looking at the protests over the "film", recalling the even more violent protests during the Danish cartoon affair, and shaking their heads one more at the seeming irrationality and backwardness of Muslims, who would let a work of "art", particularly one as trivial as this, drive them to mass protests and violence.
Yet Muslims in Egypt, Libya and around the world equally look at American actions, from sanctions against and then an invasion of Iraq that killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and sent the country back to the Stone Age, to unflinching support for Israel and all the Arab authoritarian regimes (secular and royal alike) and drone strikes that always seem to kill unintended civilians "by mistake", and wonder with equal bewilderment how "we" can be so barbaric and uncivilised.
Russia receives little better grades on this card, whether for its brutality in Afghanistan during the Soviet era, in Chechnya today, or its open support of Assad's murderous regime.
Meanwhile, the most jingoistic and hate-filled representatives of each society grow stronger with each attack, with little end in sight.
...
As I flew home yesterday from Europe, unaware of what had transpired in Libya, I read through the 2008 report by the Cairo Institute for Human Rights Studies, titled "From Exporting Terrorism to Exporting Oppression: Human Rights in the Arab Region".
The report described the often unbearable levels of abuse suffered by citizens across the region is one of the most depressing reads imaginable. Every single government, from Morocco to Iraq, was defined by the systematic abuse of its citizens, denial of their most basic rights, and rampant corruption and violence. And in every case, such abuses and violence have been enabled by Western, Russian and other foreign interests.
Simply put, each and all the policies and actions described in the report - and 2008 was no better or worse than the years that proceeded or followed it - are as much forms of terror as the destruction of the World Trade Centre, invasion of Iraq, or attack on the US Consulate in Benghazi.
In fact, the Middle East and North Africa have for over half a century constituted one of the largest and most pernicious terror systems of the modern era. And the US, Europe, Russia, and now increasingly China have been accessories, co-conspirators, and often initiators of this terror throughout the period, working hand-in-hand with local governments to repress their peoples and ensure that wealth and power remain arrogated by a trusted few.
And when you actually research this stuff more deeply, it only gets more and more depressing.
The classic:
"The white man did it."
I wonder if the left-wingers realize just how offensive they really are when they talk about muslim people (Which is the sole unifying element from the middle-east to Morroco) and treat them like children.
How cruel one must be to deny another human, equality.
Suddenly, muslims are made out to be "not-quite-human," little more than automatons that await input from the white man, before they can react. Unable to control their own destiny, never have agency.
It is no surprise that it is those same people that lead the charge on:
"Muslims can't handle democracy!"
As if they are subhumans.
Hold all people to the same standard as you would a westerner. How would you react if Americans had executed muslims because they burned a flag?
Stop looking at muslims and think "well, they don't know any better." They are human beings, treat them like it. Hold them up to equal standards. If all of mankind is equal, why would you pretend that we do not all carry the same weight of acting right and moral?
Regardless of race, place of birth, or religion, all people should be held up to the same standard.
"take up the white man's burden"
I am no cultural relativist, while I think there are certainly problems with all cultures there are definitely some things we do better than other cultures, notably women's rights and free expression. But cultural change is a slow process and you cannot deny the damage that has been done to these people over the centuries from imperialism, exploitation and conflict. Culturally they've been cast adrift and clinging to religion is understandable given how little else in their world offers any real stability or solutions. They're wrong to do so and in time they'll work it out but it's going to be a slow process and changing the leaders and imposing institutions from the top down won't change that. Cultural evolution is required, revolution just sweeps away the superficial and encourages people to cling harder to their certainties.
They don't know any better because nobody taught them any better because where they learned about the world there was no better. I'm not going to defend their beliefs, their beliefs are retarded, but I think there is a degree of explaining as to how they why they have them. Their country is shitty and a reasonable part of the blame for that is ours and going "why can't they be as smart as us?" ignores the fact that if you'd been born there you'd be retarded too.
And still it continues. I'm really wondering why action hasn't been taken to spot the violence of the protests yet, just like for example where the people were killed, I don't know why they didn't open fire on them as soon as they jumped the damn wall of the embassy. Also, getting back to a point I made earlier, I haven't seen an "anti- violence protest" this large in comparison.
We are individualists. We thinks about individuals before groups. It comes from our philosophers, who thought about it hundreds years ago.
In these countries, they obviously dont know what individualism is. They think obviously that people are "groups" and not "individuals". So, when an american does something like this, they think "ok, its the usa who did this shit". Because they are not individualists. And, as a group, they react with violence.
So muslims philosophers wrote things about individualism hundreds years ago too. But there thoughts are not impacting muslims countries enough, obviously.
And sorry for my poor english, i'm trying to get better but thats hard
LOL how they burned down the german embassy in Sudan and how the islamists are out to burn and destroy stuff in the middle east and Northern Africa. Of course these guys are still the minority, but these countries obviously have massive problems with extremism.
In my opinion we should get the fuck out of there, They will still like the petrodollar, but the interaction should be minimalized. Oh and every western nation should give some weaponry to Israel before leaving, just to prevent the inevatible try of arabic nations to throw the jews into the sea.
On September 15 2012 01:38 Insoleet wrote: We are individualists. We thinks about individuals before groups. It comes from our philosophers, who thought about it hundreds years ago.
In these countries, they obviously dont know what individualism is. They think obviously that people are "groups" and not "individuals". So, when an american does something like this, they think "ok, its the usa who did this shit". Because they are not individualists. And, as a group, they react with violence.
So muslims philosophers wrote things about individualism hundreds years ago too. But there thoughts are not impacting muslims countries enough, obviously.
And sorry for my poor english, i'm trying to get better but thats hard
The crazy thing is that years ago (hundreds) Muslim society used to be very open and was once the center for philosophy and science (hence why many stars are named Arab names - since they found them first) but once a very radical religious leader (I forget who exactly it was) came into power, it just has gone downhill since then.
On September 15 2012 01:38 Insoleet wrote: We are individualists. We thinks about individuals before groups. It comes from our philosophers, who thought about it hundreds years ago.
In these countries, they obviously dont know what individualism is. They think obviously that people are "groups" and not "individuals". So, when an american does something like this, they think "ok, its the usa who did this shit". Because they are not individualists. And, as a group, they react with violence.
So muslims philosophers wrote things about individualism hundreds years ago too. But there thoughts are not impacting muslims countries enough, obviously.
And sorry for my poor english, i'm trying to get better but thats hard
The crazy thing is that years ago (hundreds) Muslim society used to be very open and was once the center for philosophy and science (hence why many stars are named Arab names - since they found them first) but once a very radical religious leader (I forget who exactly it was) came into power, it just has gone downhill since then.
On September 15 2012 01:31 Silidons wrote: And still it continues. I'm really wondering why action hasn't been taken to spot the violence of the protests yet, just like for example where the people were killed, I don't know why they didn't open fire on them as soon as they jumped the damn wall of the embassy. Also, getting back to a point I made earlier, I haven't seen an "anti- violence protest" this large in comparison. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVdzAg1SnVE
Shit like this makes me wish we released a video like this on the reg. Maybe they would grow thicker skin.
On September 15 2012 01:31 Silidons wrote: And still it continues. I'm really wondering why action hasn't been taken to spot the violence of the protests yet, just like for example where the people were killed, I don't know why they didn't open fire on them as soon as they jumped the damn wall of the embassy. Also, getting back to a point I made earlier, I haven't seen an "anti- violence protest" this large in comparison. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVdzAg1SnVE
Well the governments of the respective countries organise/tolerate such incidents and use them to deflect from innerpolitical problems. Oh and in some of them (Sudan, Jemen etc) the political elite hates the west, too, they just love our money even more. So it is pretty easy to get shit like this rolling
On September 14 2012 12:03 Djzapz wrote: "If a person overreacts to the mildest little thing, you don't blame the mildest little thing for the actions of the person."
Yep, and the movie was not the mildest little thing. That's all.
Yes it was the mildest thing for fuck's sake. I can't get mad at extremists for being extremists, those people are broken and unrecoverable. However, commoners on TL shouldn't get those ridiculous ideas in their heads.
Mature people don't get angry when stupid people do stupid things. More importantly, they don't MURDER people who aren't even responsible for those stupid things.
There's something wrong with people who demand an excessive amount of respect from a culture which promotes free speech. Mature people control their emotions, they don't demand blood. That video if nothing in comparison to some of the vicious blows that are thrown between for instance atheists and christians, and that just fine... But somehow it's worse when the reaction is more dramatic?
By that reasoning, I can get out of any situation by crying or yelling. Oh, let's never make fun of that guy's beliefs because he's particularly sensitive! Let's censor that because we wouldn't want to hurt him.
I love the hypocrisy rampant in this thread. 'We have the right to be immature and strut our free speech, but they should just shut up and take it like men!'
Are you angry because extremists murdered innocents over a video? If so, you have nothing to worry about, because those people were not murdered because of the video (more on that here: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/libyan-attacks-said-be-2-part-militant-assault). Or are you angry because other people are demonstrating their own right to free speech by protesting?
I've said this before and I'll say it again:
If you continuously insult my mother in front of me after I repeatedly ask you not to, don't be surprised if I punch you in the face. If you roll into Compton and drop n-bombs on a group of blacks, you have no one to blame but yourself if you get jumped.
There is a line that is crossed when you repeatedly and knowingly offend someone and try to illicit action. Even our justice system realizes this and can acquit someone or lessen their sentence on the grounds of provocation. While in this case, murder is not justified (and a different story entirely as the video did not prompt the attack), Muslims are well within their right to be angry and protest (thank god for freedom of speech!)
On September 14 2012 12:03 Djzapz wrote: "If a person overreacts to the mildest little thing, you don't blame the mildest little thing for the actions of the person."
Yep, and the movie was not the mildest little thing. That's all.
Yes it was the mildest thing for fuck's sake. I can't get mad at extremists for being extremists, those people are broken and unrecoverable. However, commoners on TL shouldn't get those ridiculous ideas in their heads.
Mature people don't get angry when stupid people do stupid things. More importantly, they don't MURDER people who aren't even responsible for those stupid things.
There's something wrong with people who demand an excessive amount of respect from a culture which promotes free speech. Mature people control their emotions, they don't demand blood. That video if nothing in comparison to some of the vicious blows that are thrown between for instance atheists and christians, and that just fine... But somehow it's worse when the reaction is more dramatic?
By that reasoning, I can get out of any situation by crying or yelling. Oh, let's never make fun of that guy's beliefs because he's particularly sensitive! Let's censor that because we wouldn't want to hurt him.
If you continuously insult my mother in front of me after I repeatedly ask you not to, don't be surprised if I punch you in the face. If you roll into Compton and drop n-bombs on a group of blacks, you have no one to blame but yourself if you get jumped.
There is a line that is crossed when you repeatedly and knowingly offend someone and try to illicit action. Even our justice system realizes this and can acquit someone or lessen their sentence on the grounds of provocation. While in this case, murder is not justified (and a different story entirely as the video did not prompt the attack), Muslims are well within their right to be angry and protest (thank god for freedom of speech!)
If I continuously insult your mother in front of you, you will react however you will react largely because perhaps you can't avoid it. But if I said something about your mother on the Internet and you went out and punched someone else, then you're an imbecile. And if you went after me, then I'd consider you dumb as well, because nothing keeps you from just not looking at it and not thinking about it. More importantly, why would you right away resort to physical violence?
And yes Muslims should be allowed to protest, but what are they going to protest against? The specific individuals who have the rights to make those videos or the government which allows them? Either way, it's a bit ridiculous.
On September 14 2012 13:30 Souma wrote:
On September 14 2012 13:24 Silidons wrote:
On September 14 2012 13:18 Souma wrote:
On September 14 2012 12:54 Djzapz wrote:
On September 14 2012 12:45 Orek wrote:
On September 14 2012 12:03 Djzapz wrote: "If a person overreacts to the mildest little thing, you don't blame the mildest little thing for the actions of the person."
Yep, and the movie was not the mildest little thing. That's all.
Yes it was the mildest thing for fuck's sake. I can't get mad at extremists for being extremists, those people are broken and unrecoverable. However, commoners on TL shouldn't get those ridiculous ideas in their heads.
Mature people don't get angry when stupid people do stupid things. More importantly, they don't MURDER people who aren't even responsible for those stupid things.
There's something wrong with people who demand an excessive amount of respect from a culture which promotes free speech. Mature people control their emotions, they don't demand blood. That video if nothing in comparison to some of the vicious blows that are thrown between for instance atheists and christians, and that just fine... But somehow it's worse when the reaction is more dramatic?
By that reasoning, I can get out of any situation by crying or yelling. Oh, let's never make fun of that guy's beliefs because he's particularly sensitive! Let's censor that because we wouldn't want to hurt him.
I love the hypocrisy rampant in this thread. 'We have the right to be immature and strut our free speech, but they should just shut up and take it like men!'
Are you angry because extremists murdered innocents over a video? If so, you have nothing to worry about, because those people were not murdered because of the video (more on that here: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/libyan-attacks-said-be-2-part-militant-assault). Or are you angry because other people are demonstrating their own right to free speech by protesting?
I've said this before and I'll say it again:
If you continuously insult my mother in front of me after I repeatedly ask you not to, don't be surprised if I punch you in the face. If you roll into Compton and drop n-bombs on a group of blacks, you have no one to blame but yourself if you get jumped.
There is a line that is crossed when you repeatedly and knowingly offend someone and try to illicit action. Even our justice system realizes this and can acquit someone or lessen their sentence on the grounds of provocation. While in this case, murder is not justified (and a different story entirely as the video did not prompt the attack), Muslims are well within their right to be angry and protest (thank god for freedom of speech!)
you're out of touch with reality. the man did not jump in front of muslims and say "WATCH THIS NOW". he made a film in an entire different country, which only people who CHOOSE to watch can watch it.
You're still missing the point. The video was created with the intent to offend and directly aimed at Muslims. They may not have been forced to watch it, but if they did (which they did), then all's the same and my point still stands. That's the reality.
Or what, if I watch a movie on my own volition I can't get mad if it's a total piece of junk? Now that would be silly.
There are plenty of videos on youtube that aim to provoke atheists and Christians. They generate hateful comments, not bodies. Big deal. Some people like to tell me that I'm going to hell and I deserve it. If they say it on youtube, I'll disregard it.
Anyway, going to bed. Cheers.
The Muslims are protesting against the movie. How hard is it to understand that? They're not out there fuming at every single American. Your example doesn't really have any place in this conversation as it's taken way out of context (first of all, their frustration is directed at the right target (the movie), and second of all, they did not murder those people because of the video).
And it does not matter if atheists or Christians get angry or not at the youtube videos they see. You base the situation on whether or not these Muslims are within their own right to be angry or not, which, as I've said, they definitely are. Just like if some Germans were to make a video that glorified Nazis and the Holocaust, Jews would be well within their right to express their outrage as well, or if some idiot Japanese made a video glorifying the Rape of Nanking, you can bet the Chinese would be furious.
If you continually insult my mother or anyone, then we will probably get into a verbal argument, but I would never violently attack you, no matter how vile the insults are. And any violent reaction would be disproportionate, wrong, and criminal. You keep saying that the violence of these protesters is not acceptable, yet with these flimsy examples and appeals to how badly the Middle East has been exploited by the West, you continue to apologize and sympathize on their behalf.
That’s right, not the American embassy, the German embassy. And as the link says, they’re rioting, vandalizing and burning buildings because of the film mocking Muhammad, so this is a religiously motivated attack. Your argument throughout this thread is basically that their feelings are hurt so badly that this sort of senseless and indiscriminate rampaging is defensible. But they’re not even directing their rage at the right place. Why the German embassy instead of the American embassy? Probably because the American embassy is protected, so they’re violently fuming at anything Western.
Today, there’s a statement from the Muslim Brotherhood in the NYTImes.
Today’s world is a global village; nations are closer than ever before. In such a world, respect for values and figures — religious or otherwise — that nations hold dear is a necessary requirement to build sustainable, mutually beneficial relationships.
Despite our resentment of the continued appearance of productions like the anti-Muslim film that led to the current violence, we do not hold the American government or its citizens responsible for acts of the few that abuse the laws protecting freedom of expression.
In a new democratic Egypt, Egyptians earned the right to voice their anger over such issues, and they expect their government to uphold and protect their right to do so. However, they should do so peacefully and within the bounds of the law.
The breach of the United States Embassy premises by Egyptian protesters is illegal under international law. The failure of the protecting police force has to be investigated.
We are relieved that no embassy staff in Cairo were harmed. Egypt is going through a state of revolutionary fluidity, and public anger needs to be dealt with responsibly and with caution. Our condolences to the American people for the loss of their ambassador and three members of the embassy staff in Libya.
We hope that the relationships that both Americans and Egyptians worked to build in the past couple of months can sustain the turbulence of this week’s events. Our nations have much to learn from each other as we embark on building the new Egypt.
KHAIRAT EL-SHATER Deputy President, Muslim Brotherhood Cairo, Sept. 13, 2012
This is a good statement, except for the part where El-Shater calls this an abuse of freedom of expression. It’s not. Muslims need to understand this. We will not apologize for exercising our freedom of speech. As citizens of a Western country, we have the freedom to mock any religious deity that we want. If you don’t like this fact, you can either lobby for the First Amendment to be abolished, go to China, or protest peacefully. Yet despite what El-Shater said, these are not peaceful protests. They are still continuing in Egypt and they are violent.
Yet you keep defending these violent protesters, because you claim that their outrage is justified. After all, they’ve been “exploited” by the West. You call it a small percentage of extremists. Yes, I agree, it is a small percentage of Muslims that are violent extremists, but all violence is a small percentage, so that explains nothing. Compare this to the Tibetans who have been mass murdered by the Chinese in the hundreds of thousands, they’ve suffered far worse oppression and exploitation, yet do not go on religiously motivated and deadly rampages like the ones in the links given.
You claim that Muslims are fuming just because of the movie, but you’ve also been arguing that they’re fuming at America and the Western world in general. And then you link this article which suggests the latter.
On September 14 2012 22:02 Souma wrote: For anyone who cares, I found an enlightening article on why these events occur.
Americans and Europeans are no doubt looking at the protests over the "film", recalling the even more violent protests during the Danish cartoon affair, and shaking their heads one more at the seeming irrationality and backwardness of Muslims, who would let a work of "art", particularly one as trivial as this, drive them to mass protests and violence.
Yet Muslims in Egypt, Libya and around the world equally look at American actions, from sanctions against and then an invasion of Iraq that killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and sent the country back to the Stone Age, to unflinching support for Israel and all the Arab authoritarian regimes (secular and royal alike) and drone strikes that always seem to kill unintended civilians "by mistake", and wonder with equal bewilderment how "we" can be so barbaric and uncivilised.
Russia receives little better grades on this card, whether for its brutality in Afghanistan during the Soviet era, in Chechnya today, or its open support of Assad's murderous regime.
Meanwhile, the most jingoistic and hate-filled representatives of each society grow stronger with each attack, with little end in sight.
...
As I flew home yesterday from Europe, unaware of what had transpired in Libya, I read through the 2008 report by the Cairo Institute for Human Rights Studies, titled "From Exporting Terrorism to Exporting Oppression: Human Rights in the Arab Region".
The report described the often unbearable levels of abuse suffered by citizens across the region is one of the most depressing reads imaginable. Every single government, from Morocco to Iraq, was defined by the systematic abuse of its citizens, denial of their most basic rights, and rampant corruption and violence. And in every case, such abuses and violence have been enabled by Western, Russian and other foreign interests.
Simply put, each and all the policies and actions described in the report - and 2008 was no better or worse than the years that proceeded or followed it - are as much forms of terror as the destruction of the World Trade Centre, invasion of Iraq, or attack on the US Consulate in Benghazi.
In fact, the Middle East and North Africa have for over half a century constituted one of the largest and most pernicious terror systems of the modern era. And the US, Europe, Russia, and now increasingly China have been accessories, co-conspirators, and often initiators of this terror throughout the period, working hand-in-hand with local governments to repress their peoples and ensure that wealth and power remain arrogated by a trusted few.
And when you actually research this stuff more deeply, it only gets more and more depressing.
The article reveals that the US is caught in a no win situation. Either the US props up brutal governments hated by the people in these Middle Eastern countries which have led to anti-Americanism, or the US can support the Arab spring and let the people overthrow these governments. And the US has done the latter, yet the populace hates the US just the same. In fact, the article claims that in supporting the Arab Spring the US has armed anti-American rebels. Here are some other quotes in the article you linked.
Of course, there is absolutely no justification for the attack that killed Ambassador Chris Stevens and several of his entourage as well as Libyan security personnel. And yes, the attacks, and the larger anti-American protests in which they took place, remind us about the powerful strain of unchecked and often unthinking - certainly uncritical - anger and revenge that defines Islam for millions of its adherents. […] The Brotherhood may have learned the democratic game, but it's a very circumscribed and corporatist view of democracy that has traditionally shown little tolerance for diverse views and life choices that might challenge normative views (although the most recent Satanic metal episode might signal the beginnings of a shift, as I pointed out in my last column). Such a view is of course not much different to that of the Republican Party today, not to mention the religious right in Israel, India and numerous other countries.
But that only means that politics and religion continue to generate chauvinism, hatred, violence and discrimination wherever they combine, even as the chances of keeping them separate seems to diminish with each passing year.
For now this is all I have to say on the matter. But I have no doubt that these violent protests will continue so that there will be a lot more to discuss as events unfold. It’s now spread to Sudan, Lebanon, Pakistan, Nigeria and Tunisia. I leave you with the latest words from Hilary Clinton:
In her remarks, Clinton repeated much of what she's said in the last two days. Namely that the Benghazi attack was carried out by a "small and savage group," and that the United States completely rejects what she called the "inflammable and despicable" anti-Muslim film circulating the Internet. However, Clinton pointed out all religions have faced insults and denigration, but that's no justification for violence. The response to such insults is what separates people of true faith from those who would use religion as an excuse to commit violent acts, she said.
"When Christians are subject to insults to their faith, and that certainly happens, we expect them not to resort to violence. When Hindus or Buddhists are subjected to insults to their faiths, and that also certainly happens, we expect them not to resort to violence," said Clinton. "The same goes for all faiths, including Islam."
"I so strongly believe that the great religions of the world are stronger than any insults. They have withstood offense for centuries," said Clinton." Refraining from violence, then, is not a sign of weakness in one's faith; it is absolutely the opposite, a sign that one's faith is unshakable."
I’ve been watching the Al Jazeera live stream. It is very depressing and saddening. Enough is enough. But, please, keep defending these violent Muslim protesters.
the trailers of "Innocence of the Muslims" are really lulzy. Everything seems to be done in a studio with bad acoustics and blue screen. It is really provocative. Just don't let yourselves get provoked, dudes. Why the violence, ffs?
On September 15 2012 01:31 Silidons wrote: And still it continues. I'm really wondering why action hasn't been taken to spot the violence of the protests yet, just like for example where the people were killed, I don't know why they didn't open fire on them as soon as they jumped the damn wall of the embassy. Also, getting back to a point I made earlier, I haven't seen an "anti- violence protest" this large in comparison. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVdzAg1SnVE
I am curious, which city do you live in the States in? And if a tourist is mugged or some random innocent person is murdered, do you and all your friends get together and go launch a protest against violence? Normal people have stuff to do, and most of that stuff does not include being attacked by mobs of insane terrorism supporters. The genius of these terrorist initiated protests is that they are cheap yet manage to do more harm to Muslim-Western relations than any terror attack could. Less than 1% of the population is involved yet Americans are already read to just 'leave the Middle East' or condemn everyone who lives there a savage because the arrival of some sort of semi-freedom didnt magical turn all the poor, uneducated people who were oppressed for the last 40-50 years into average joe Americans.
EPT
