On September 14 2012 22:02 Souma wrote: For anyone who cares, I found an enlightening article on why these events occur.
A couple excerpts:
Americans and Europeans are no doubt looking at the protests over the "film", recalling the even more violent protests during the Danish cartoon affair, and shaking their heads one more at the seeming irrationality and backwardness of Muslims, who would let a work of "art", particularly one as trivial as this, drive them to mass protests and violence.
Yet Muslims in Egypt, Libya and around the world equally look at American actions, from sanctions against and then an invasion of Iraq that killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and sent the country back to the Stone Age, to unflinching support for Israel and all the Arab authoritarian regimes (secular and royal alike) and drone strikes that always seem to kill unintended civilians "by mistake", and wonder with equal bewilderment how "we" can be so barbaric and uncivilised.
Russia receives little better grades on this card, whether for its brutality in Afghanistan during the Soviet era, in Chechnya today, or its open support of Assad's murderous regime.
Meanwhile, the most jingoistic and hate-filled representatives of each society grow stronger with each attack, with little end in sight.
...
As I flew home yesterday from Europe, unaware of what had transpired in Libya, I read through the 2008 report by the Cairo Institute for Human Rights Studies, titled "From Exporting Terrorism to Exporting Oppression: Human Rights in the Arab Region".
The report described the often unbearable levels of abuse suffered by citizens across the region is one of the most depressing reads imaginable. Every single government, from Morocco to Iraq, was defined by the systematic abuse of its citizens, denial of their most basic rights, and rampant corruption and violence. And in every case, such abuses and violence have been enabled by Western, Russian and other foreign interests.
Simply put, each and all the policies and actions described in the report - and 2008 was no better or worse than the years that proceeded or followed it - are as much forms of terror as the destruction of the World Trade Centre, invasion of Iraq, or attack on the US Consulate in Benghazi.
In fact, the Middle East and North Africa have for over half a century constituted one of the largest and most pernicious terror systems of the modern era. And the US, Europe, Russia, and now increasingly China have been accessories, co-conspirators, and often initiators of this terror throughout the period, working hand-in-hand with local governments to repress their peoples and ensure that wealth and power remain arrogated by a trusted few.
And when you actually research this stuff more deeply, it only gets more and more depressing.
The classic:
"The white man did it."
I wonder if the left-wingers realize just how offensive they really are when they talk about muslim people (Which is the sole unifying element from the middle-east to Morroco) and treat them like children.
How cruel one must be to deny another human, equality.
Suddenly, muslims are made out to be "not-quite-human," little more than automatons that await input from the white man, before they can react. Unable to control their own destiny, never have agency.
It is no surprise that it is those same people that lead the charge on:
"Muslims can't handle democracy!"
As if they are subhumans.
Hold all people to the same standard as you would a westerner. How would you react if Americans had executed muslims because they burned a flag?
Stop looking at muslims and think "well, they don't know any better." They are human beings, treat them like it. Hold them up to equal standards. If all of mankind is equal, why would you pretend that we do not all carry the same weight of acting right and moral?
Regardless of race, place of birth, or religion, all people should be held up to the same standard.
"take up the white man's burden"
I am no cultural relativist, while I think there are certainly problems with all cultures there are definitely some things we do better than other cultures, notably women's rights and free expression. But cultural change is a slow process and you cannot deny the damage that has been done to these people over the centuries from imperialism, exploitation and conflict. Culturally they've been cast adrift and clinging to religion is understandable given how little else in their world offers any real stability or solutions. They're wrong to do so and in time they'll work it out but it's going to be a slow process and changing the leaders and imposing institutions from the top down won't change that. Cultural evolution is required, revolution just sweeps away the superficial and encourages people to cling harder to their certainties.
They don't know any better because nobody taught them any better because where they learned about the world there was no better. I'm not going to defend their beliefs, their beliefs are retarded, but I think there is a degree of explaining as to how they why they have them. Their country is shitty and a reasonable part of the blame for that is ours and going "why can't they be as smart as us?" ignores the fact that if you'd been born there you'd be retarded too.
But most people who are from that part of the world don't riot in the streets and try to murder innocent people when something like this happens. So you can hold the people that commit those acts to the same moral standard as the Western world. You can explain the outbursts of violence - an inability to understand the nature and extent of free speech in the West, an extreme religious climate, and a young male population suffering from tremendously high unemployment - but that doesn't excuse the violence.
"When Christians are subject to insults to their faith, and that certainly happens, we expect them not to resort to violence. When Hindus or Buddhists are subjected to insults to their faiths, and that also certainly happens, we expect them not to resort to violence," said Clinton. "The same goes for all faiths, including Islam."
On September 15 2012 02:12 ecstatica wrote: Lol were there any interviews with film makers after this has unfolded? I'm just curious what they react like on camera lol.
Do you feel guilty? Do you know that people are dieing because of your movie as we speak? Some good questions that would sell well.
The film maker, no. Last I heard he was in hiding being protected by the FBI. Remember what happened to the danish cartoon maker?
The actors and actresses, yes. They said they were duped and did not know what the film was about.
On September 15 2012 01:31 Silidons wrote: And still it continues. I'm really wondering why action hasn't been taken to spot the violence of the protests yet, just like for example where the people were killed, I don't know why they didn't open fire on them as soon as they jumped the damn wall of the embassy. Also, getting back to a point I made earlier, I haven't seen an "anti- violence protest" this large in comparison.
I am curious, which city do you live in the States in? And if a tourist is mugged or some random innocent person is murdered, do you and all your friends get together and go launch a protest against violence? Normal people have stuff to do, and most of that stuff does not include being attacked by mobs of insane terrorism supporters. The genius of these terrorist initiated protests is that they are cheap yet manage to do more harm to Muslim-Western relations than any terror attack could. Less than 1% of the population is involved yet Americans are already read to just 'leave the Middle East' or condemn everyone who lives there a savage because the arrival of some sort of semi-freedom didnt magical turn all the poor, uneducated people who were oppressed for the last 40-50 years into average joe Americans.
It seems like you said a whole lot to say nothing at all. I don't partake in any protests even if I support the cause.
That 1% argument is really old. Have you ever heard of the expression "Actions speak louder than words"?
At least three die as protesters attack U.S. embassy in Tunis
TUNIS (Reuters) - At least three people died and 28 others were wounded on Friday after hundreds of protesters incensed by a U.S.-made film insulting the Prophet Mohammad attacked the U.S. embassy in the Tunisian capital, state television said.
A Reuters reporter had seen police open fire to try to quell the assault, in which protesters managed to penetrate the embassy building.
If I was Obama I would seriously recall all ambassadors and staff in every country where this happened and security was insufficient. I would also cut all ties.
Goodbye, you have lost all support fools!
edit*
new headline on aljazeera: "Protesters angered by anti-Islam video storm UN peacekeepers' camp in Egypt's Sinai. More soon...
On September 15 2012 02:41 frontliner2 wrote: If I was Obama I would seriously recall all ambassadors and staff in every country where this happened and security was insufficient. I would also cut all ties.
Goodbye, you have lost all support fools!
edit*
new headline on aljazeera: "Protesters angered by anti-Islam video storm UN peacekeepers' camp in Egypt's Sinai. More soon...
you should really not become a diplomat then, rofl
On September 15 2012 02:41 frontliner2 wrote: If I was Obama I would seriously recall all ambassadors and staff in every country where this happened and security was insufficient. I would also cut all ties.
Goodbye, you have lost all support fools!
edit*
new headline on aljazeera: "Protesters angered by anti-Islam video storm UN peacekeepers' camp in Egypt's Sinai. More soon...
Why do people who post extreme answers like this never give a reason why to do what they say?
On September 15 2012 02:41 frontliner2 wrote: If I was Obama I would seriously recall all ambassadors and staff in every country where this happened and security was insufficient. I would also cut all ties.
Goodbye, you have lost all support fools!
edit*
new headline on aljazeera: "Protesters angered by anti-Islam video storm UN peacekeepers' camp in Egypt's Sinai. More soon...
you should really not become a diplomat then, rofl
Yeah let's just shrug at killing diplomats, burning US schools, attack other Western embassies and UN camps.
You should totally shrug?
* Edit
It is totally unacceptable to attack diplomatic posts. If this happens you have to make a firm stand to make people think twice.
On September 15 2012 02:41 frontliner2 wrote: If I was Obama I would seriously recall all ambassadors and staff in every country where this happened and security was insufficient. I would also cut all ties.
Goodbye, you have lost all support fools!
edit*
new headline on aljazeera: "Protesters angered by anti-Islam video storm UN peacekeepers' camp in Egypt's Sinai. More soon...
Embassies are not all about support. The US gets benefits for having them there. Especially US citizen who are in those countries for various reasons.
On September 15 2012 02:41 frontliner2 wrote: If I was Obama I would seriously recall all ambassadors and staff in every country where this happened and security was insufficient. I would also cut all ties.
Goodbye, you have lost all support fools!
edit*
new headline on aljazeera: "Protesters angered by anti-Islam video storm UN peacekeepers' camp in Egypt's Sinai. More soon...
Too many special interests in these countries for the US to just pull everything out.
I just watched the so called movie, and let me tell you. How the fuck could anyone take this shit seriously? I mean even if I was religious the movie was probably the worst composed thing I have ever seen in my life. They really rioted over something so stupid? Its times like these were I wish religion didn't exist.
On September 15 2012 02:41 frontliner2 wrote: If I was Obama I would seriously recall all ambassadors and staff in every country where this happened and security was insufficient. I would also cut all ties.
Goodbye, you have lost all support fools!
edit*
new headline on aljazeera: "Protesters angered by anti-Islam video storm UN peacekeepers' camp in Egypt's Sinai. More soon...
you should really not become a diplomat then, rofl
Yeah let's just shrug at killing diplomats, burning US schools, attack other Western embassies and UN camps.
On September 15 2012 02:41 frontliner2 wrote: If I was Obama I would seriously recall all ambassadors and staff in every country where this happened and security was insufficient. I would also cut all ties.
Goodbye, you have lost all support fools!
edit*
new headline on aljazeera: "Protesters angered by anti-Islam video storm UN peacekeepers' camp in Egypt's Sinai. More soon...
you should really not become a diplomat then, rofl
Yeah let's just shrug at killing diplomats, burning US schools, attack other Western embassies and UN camps.
You should totally shrug?
no. But you should also not overreact.
Clearly the governments in these countries cannot control their citizens (and honestly, I doubt they really want to because they also dislike western civilization), so at what point do we (USA, Germany, Great Britain) step in to control the riots?
On September 15 2012 02:52 Boblhead wrote: I just watched the so called movie, and let me tell you. How the fuck could anyone take this shit seriously? I mean even if I was religious the movie was probably the worst composed thing I have ever seen in my life. They really rioted over something so stupid? Its times like these were I wish religion didn't exist.
On September 15 2012 02:41 frontliner2 wrote: If I was Obama I would seriously recall all ambassadors and staff in every country where this happened and security was insufficient. I would also cut all ties.
Goodbye, you have lost all support fools!
edit*
new headline on aljazeera: "Protesters angered by anti-Islam video storm UN peacekeepers' camp in Egypt's Sinai. More soon...
Why do people who post extreme answers like this never give a reason why to do what they say?
Because there is no reason, or it is a bad one and they rely on emotional intensity rather than logic and reason. At times I debate within myself whether to call them on their faulty points or simply to let them go unanswered, hoping they will assume their reasoning is flawed.
On September 15 2012 02:41 frontliner2 wrote: If I was Obama I would seriously recall all ambassadors and staff in every country where this happened and security was insufficient. I would also cut all ties.
Goodbye, you have lost all support fools!
edit*
new headline on aljazeera: "Protesters angered by anti-Islam video storm UN peacekeepers' camp in Egypt's Sinai. More soon...
you should really not become a diplomat then, rofl
Yeah let's just shrug at killing diplomats, burning US schools, attack other Western embassies and UN camps.
You should totally shrug?
no. But you should also not overreact.
Clearly the governments in these countries cannot control their citizens (and honestly, I doubt they really want to because they also dislike western civilization), so at what point do we (USA, Germany, Great Britain) step in to control the riots?
The west shouldn't control the riots. It is the duty of the state to grant the safety of the embassy (not of the ambassadors state). If they cannot do this, the embassy gets closed for a while and some day the diplomats maybe return. Were the states unwilling to or unable to prevent this from happening? That is not easy to answer.
On September 15 2012 02:41 frontliner2 wrote: If I was Obama I would seriously recall all ambassadors and staff in every country where this happened and security was insufficient. I would also cut all ties.
Goodbye, you have lost all support fools!
edit*
new headline on aljazeera: "Protesters angered by anti-Islam video storm UN peacekeepers' camp in Egypt's Sinai. More soon...
you should really not become a diplomat then, rofl
Yeah let's just shrug at killing diplomats, burning US schools, attack other Western embassies and UN camps.
You should totally shrug?
no. But you should also not overreact.
Clearly the governments in these countries cannot control their citizens (and honestly, I doubt they really want to because they also dislike western civilization), so at what point do we (USA, Germany, Great Britain) step in to control the riots?
The west shouldn't control the riots. It is the duty of the state to grant the safety of the embassy (not of the ambassadors state). If they cannot do this, the embassy gets closed for a while and some day the diplomats maybe return. Were the states unwilling to or unable to prevent this from happening? That is not easy to answer.
^This was basically what I meant with recalling and cutting ties.
EPT
