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Please don't use this thread as a platform to argue about religion. -semioldguy |
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 14 2012 15:16 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 13:18 Souma wrote:On September 14 2012 12:54 Djzapz wrote:On September 14 2012 12:45 Orek wrote:On September 14 2012 12:03 Djzapz wrote:
"If a person overreacts to the mildest little thing, you don't blame the mildest little thing for the actions of the person." Yep, and the movie was not the mildest little thing. That's all. Yes it was the mildest thing for fuck's sake. I can't get mad at extremists for being extremists, those people are broken and unrecoverable. However, commoners on TL shouldn't get those ridiculous ideas in their heads. Mature people don't get angry when stupid people do stupid things. More importantly, they don't MURDER people who aren't even responsible for those stupid things. There's something wrong with people who demand an excessive amount of respect from a culture which promotes free speech. Mature people control their emotions, they don't demand blood. That video if nothing in comparison to some of the vicious blows that are thrown between for instance atheists and christians, and that just fine... But somehow it's worse when the reaction is more dramatic? By that reasoning, I can get out of any situation by crying or yelling. Oh, let's never make fun of that guy's beliefs because he's particularly sensitive! Let's censor that because we wouldn't want to hurt him. I love the hypocrisy rampant in this thread. 'We have the right to be immature and strut our free speech, but they should just shut up and take it like men!' Are you angry because extremists murdered innocents over a video? If so, you have nothing to worry about, because those people were not murdered because of the video (more on that here: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/libyan-attacks-said-be-2-part-militant-assault). Or are you angry because other people are demonstrating their own right to free speech by protesting? I've said this before and I'll say it again: If you continuously insult my mother in front of me after I repeatedly ask you not to, don't be surprised if I punch you in the face. If you roll into Compton and drop n-bombs on a group of blacks, you have no one to blame but yourself if you get jumped. There is a line that is crossed when you repeatedly and knowingly offend someone and try to illicit action. Even our justice system realizes this and can acquit someone or lessen their sentence on the grounds of provocation. While in this case, murder is not justified (and a different story entirely as the video did not prompt the attack), Muslims are well within their right to be angry and protest (thank god for freedom of speech!) You're way off base here. This is me walking into Compton, dropping the n word on a bunch of crips, and then them driving out to Montana and killing a bunch of people I've never even heard of in response. It no sense of any sort. And even then, just because the movie is provocative doesn't excuse the people who get violent in response. Take those nutters from Westboro baptist for instance. They're about as offensive as it gets, but if the father of a dead soldier stabbed a few of them to death at one of their funeral demonstrations, he would be sent to prison and rightly so, even considering the circumstances.
Can everyone who posts in this thread take a moment to read the freaking link that's been posted here describing how the movie was not why people were murdered? If you can't even get the facts straight, why are you even refuting me?
Let me just clarify: the examples I gave were addressing the people who thought people should just suck it up whenever they're insulted because freedom of speech is the law of the land.
In neither of the examples did I say murder was justifiable. I even said it in my post that it was not. But people have a right to be angry, and provocation is even recognized by our judicial system as a reason to mitigate sentences, so you should rethink the whole 'it's okay to insult people and get away with it' stance.
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This whole thing is a sad and childish mess.
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On September 14 2012 13:50 Souma wrote:Forgot to put a space between the parenthesis and the link: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/libyan-attacks-said-be-2-part-militant-assault . It's the Associated Press. I wouldn't call them crap. Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 13:39 Djzapz wrote:On September 14 2012 13:18 Souma wrote:On September 14 2012 12:54 Djzapz wrote:On September 14 2012 12:45 Orek wrote:On September 14 2012 12:03 Djzapz wrote:
"If a person overreacts to the mildest little thing, you don't blame the mildest little thing for the actions of the person." Yep, and the movie was not the mildest little thing. That's all. Yes it was the mildest thing for fuck's sake. I can't get mad at extremists for being extremists, those people are broken and unrecoverable. However, commoners on TL shouldn't get those ridiculous ideas in their heads. Mature people don't get angry when stupid people do stupid things. More importantly, they don't MURDER people who aren't even responsible for those stupid things. There's something wrong with people who demand an excessive amount of respect from a culture which promotes free speech. Mature people control their emotions, they don't demand blood. That video if nothing in comparison to some of the vicious blows that are thrown between for instance atheists and christians, and that just fine... But somehow it's worse when the reaction is more dramatic? By that reasoning, I can get out of any situation by crying or yelling. Oh, let's never make fun of that guy's beliefs because he's particularly sensitive! Let's censor that because we wouldn't want to hurt him. If you continuously insult my mother in front of me after I repeatedly ask you not to, don't be surprised if I punch you in the face. If you roll into Compton and drop n-bombs on a group of blacks, you have no one to blame but yourself if you get jumped. There is a line that is crossed when you repeatedly and knowingly offend someone and try to illicit action. Even our justice system realizes this and can acquit someone or lessen their sentence on the grounds of provocation. While in this case, murder is not justified (and a different story entirely as the video did not prompt the attack), Muslims are well within their right to be angry and protest (thank god for freedom of speech!) If I continuously insult your mother in front of you, you will react however you will react largely because perhaps you can't avoid it. But if I said something about your mother on the Internet and you went out and punched someone else, then you're an imbecile. And if you went after me, then I'd consider you dumb as well, because nothing keeps you from just not looking at it and not thinking about it. More importantly, why would you right away resort to physical violence? And yes Muslims should be allowed to protest, but what are they going to protest against? The specific individuals who have the rights to make those videos or the government which allows them? Either way, it's a bit ridiculous. On September 14 2012 13:30 Souma wrote:On September 14 2012 13:24 Silidons wrote:On September 14 2012 13:18 Souma wrote:On September 14 2012 12:54 Djzapz wrote:On September 14 2012 12:45 Orek wrote:On September 14 2012 12:03 Djzapz wrote:
"If a person overreacts to the mildest little thing, you don't blame the mildest little thing for the actions of the person." Yep, and the movie was not the mildest little thing. That's all. Yes it was the mildest thing for fuck's sake. I can't get mad at extremists for being extremists, those people are broken and unrecoverable. However, commoners on TL shouldn't get those ridiculous ideas in their heads. Mature people don't get angry when stupid people do stupid things. More importantly, they don't MURDER people who aren't even responsible for those stupid things. There's something wrong with people who demand an excessive amount of respect from a culture which promotes free speech. Mature people control their emotions, they don't demand blood. That video if nothing in comparison to some of the vicious blows that are thrown between for instance atheists and christians, and that just fine... But somehow it's worse when the reaction is more dramatic? By that reasoning, I can get out of any situation by crying or yelling. Oh, let's never make fun of that guy's beliefs because he's particularly sensitive! Let's censor that because we wouldn't want to hurt him. I love the hypocrisy rampant in this thread. 'We have the right to be immature and strut our free speech, but they should just shut up and take it like men!' Are you angry because extremists murdered innocents over a video? If so, you have nothing to worry about, because those people were not murdered because of the video (more on that here: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/libyan-attacks-said-be-2-part-militant-assault). Or are you angry because other people are demonstrating their own right to free speech by protesting? I've said this before and I'll say it again: If you continuously insult my mother in front of me after I repeatedly ask you not to, don't be surprised if I punch you in the face.
If you roll into Compton and drop n-bombs on a group of blacks, you have no one to blame but yourself if you get jumped.There is a line that is crossed when you repeatedly and knowingly offend someone and try to illicit action. Even our justice system realizes this and can acquit someone or lessen their sentence on the grounds of provocation. While in this case, murder is not justified (and a different story entirely as the video did not prompt the attack), Muslims are well within their right to be angry and protest (thank god for freedom of speech!) you're out of touch with reality. the man did not jump in front of muslims and say "WATCH THIS NOW". he made a film in an entire different country, which only people who CHOOSE to watch can watch it. You're still missing the point. The video was created with the intent to offend and directly aimed at Muslims. They may not have been forced to watch it, but if they did (which they did), then all's the same and my point still stands. That's the reality. Or what, if I watch a movie on my own volition I can't get mad if it's a total piece of junk? Now that would be silly. There are plenty of videos on youtube that aim to provoke atheists and Christians. They generate hateful comments, not bodies. Big deal. Some people like to tell me that I'm going to hell and I deserve it. If they say it on youtube, I'll disregard it. Anyway, going to bed. Cheers. The Muslims are protesting against the movie. How hard is it to understand that? They're not out there fuming at every single American. Your example doesn't really have any place in this conversation as it's taken way out of context (first of all, their frustration is directed at the right target (the movie), and second of all, they did not murder those people because of the video). And it does not matter if atheists or Christians get angry or not at the youtube videos they see. You base the situation on whether or not these Muslims are within their own right to be angry or not, which, as I've said, they definitely are. Just like if some Germans were to make a video that glorified Nazis and the Holocaust, Jews would be well within their right to express their outrage as well, or if some idiot Japanese made a video glorifying the Rape of Nanking, you can bet the Chinese would be furious.
Yes, but murdering an ambassador is not just a protest. Even in the peak of the cold war, embassies were untouchable. This is the single most important rule of international diplomacy. The US embassy is for all purposes US soil. This is an attack on US grounds against the US, and the US are well within their rights to DECLARE WAR over this. This is not being "angry", this is an international scandal, showcasing that the extremists are not only murderers that don't give a shit about laws, but that they are willing to ignore the good of their own country's international standing to make a point.
There are plenty of videos glorifying the holocaust and the Nazis. There were cases in Europe where people were cracking up laughing during showings of Schindler's List. There were no Jewish protests, let alone murders. There are cases of burnt churches, mocking of Jesus on TV and Film, and I'm not even going to start about the amount of materials poking fun of Christianity (/r/atheism anyone?)... yet no lynch mobs storming embassies happened. During the peak of the cold war, with the media vilifying communism (from the media to pop songs), yet not one case of firing missiles at an embassy.
Draw a line between anger and murder. There is a big fucking difference.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
I'm not sure how many times I'll have to repeat this: READ THE LINK, THEY DIDN'T MURDER ANYONE BECAUSE OF THE MOVIE.
Would it be possible to get a Mod Note on the top telling people to read that Associated Press article before people start fuming that Muslims murdered innocents because of a stupid movie?
And I'm gonna say this again too: it doesn't matter how atheists or Jews would respond. What matters is if someone is within their right to be angry. Just because someone is more tough skinned than someone else means absolutely nothing.
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sraeli filmmaker in hiding after anti-Islam movie sparks deadly Libya, Egypt protests
Film by Sam Bacile, who self-identifies as an Israeli Jew, led to protests at the U.S. consulate in Libya and the U.S. Embassy in Cairo; one American staffer killed in clashes.
Bacile, a California real estate developer in his fifties who identifies himself as an Israeli Jew, said he believes the movie will help his native land by exposing Islam's flaws to the world. "
"Islam is a cancer, period," he repeatedly said in a solemn, accented tone.
The two-hour movie, "Innocence of Muslims," cost $5 million to make and was financed with the help of more than 100 Jewish donors, said Bacile, who wrote and directed it.
Op should change this. Bacile was a name used to cover up his real identity. He is most likely not Jewish.
I can agree that he hides his true identity, the last person to even draw a cartoon picture of muhammad was killed by muslim extremists over in denmark.
Also to Sourna, I'm not sure what your argueing but their has been anti-American and anti-Jewish protests all over the middle east from the film. The attack might have been sparked by that, or by a september 11th anniversary plot by terrorists, it doesn't matter.
People are burning flags and trying to scale Embassy walls because Muhammad is being insulted. That is ridiculous.
People have a right to be angry, people do not have a right to violence. Just because people cannot take a joke does not give them the right to try and inflict harm upon ambassadors.
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On September 14 2012 20:04 Jisall wrote:Show nested quote +
sraeli filmmaker in hiding after anti-Islam movie sparks deadly Libya, Egypt protests
Film by Sam Bacile, who self-identifies as an Israeli Jew, led to protests at the U.S. consulate in Libya and the U.S. Embassy in Cairo; one American staffer killed in clashes.
Bacile, a California real estate developer in his fifties who identifies himself as an Israeli Jew, said he believes the movie will help his native land by exposing Islam's flaws to the world. "
"Islam is a cancer, period," he repeatedly said in a solemn, accented tone.
The two-hour movie, "Innocence of Muslims," cost $5 million to make and was financed with the help of more than 100 Jewish donors, said Bacile, who wrote and directed it.
Op should change this. Bacile was a name used to cover up his real identity. He is most likely not Jewish. I can agree that he hides his true identity, the last person to even draw a cartoon picture of muhammad was killed by muslim extremists over in denmark. Also to Sourna, I'm not sure what your argueing but their has been anti-American and anti-Jewish protests all over the middle east from the film. The attack might have been sparked by that, or by a september 11th anniversary plot by terrorists, it doesn't matter. People are burning flags and trying to scale Embassy walls because Muhammad is being insulted. That is ridiculous. People have a right to be angry, people do not have a right to violence. Just because people cannot take a joke does not give them the right to try and inflict harm upon ambassadors.
You do realize that the ones who "inflicted harm upon the ambassador", as in "killed him", did so not because of the movie but because they were terrorists who wanted to kill him regardless of the movie? Did you even read Souma's posts? There's a difference between the protesters who are demonstrating because of the movie and the actual terrorist act which had nothing to do with it.
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On September 14 2012 20:09 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 20:04 Jisall wrote:
sraeli filmmaker in hiding after anti-Islam movie sparks deadly Libya, Egypt protests
Film by Sam Bacile, who self-identifies as an Israeli Jew, led to protests at the U.S. consulate in Libya and the U.S. Embassy in Cairo; one American staffer killed in clashes.
Bacile, a California real estate developer in his fifties who identifies himself as an Israeli Jew, said he believes the movie will help his native land by exposing Islam's flaws to the world. "
"Islam is a cancer, period," he repeatedly said in a solemn, accented tone.
The two-hour movie, "Innocence of Muslims," cost $5 million to make and was financed with the help of more than 100 Jewish donors, said Bacile, who wrote and directed it.
Op should change this. Bacile was a name used to cover up his real identity. He is most likely not Jewish. I can agree that he hides his true identity, the last person to even draw a cartoon picture of muhammad was killed by muslim extremists over in denmark. Also to Sourna, I'm not sure what your argueing but their has been anti-American and anti-Jewish protests all over the middle east from the film. The attack might have been sparked by that, or by a september 11th anniversary plot by terrorists, it doesn't matter. People are burning flags and trying to scale Embassy walls because Muhammad is being insulted. That is ridiculous. People have a right to be angry, people do not have a right to violence. Just because people cannot take a joke does not give them the right to try and inflict harm upon ambassadors. You do realize that the ones who "inflicted harm upon the ambassador", as in "killed him", did so not because of the movie but because they were terrorists who wanted to kill him regardless of the movie? Did you even read Souma's posts? There's a difference between the protesters who are demonstrating because of the movie and the actual terrorist act which had nothing to do with it.
Yes I am not just talking about Lybia
In Yemen, demonstrators breached a security wall at the U.S. Embassy as several thousand people protested outside. Four protesters died during clashes with security forces outside the embassy, according to Yemeni security officials.
Twenty-four security force members were reported injured, as were 11 protesters, according to Yemen's Defense Ministry, security officials and eyewitnesses.
-- In Egypt, site of one of the largest, longest-lasting protests, at least 13 civilians and six police officers were injured Thursday, according to Egyptian government officials. Throngs continued to pack the area in front of the Cairo embassy on Friday morning, as a large fire burned and security guarded the area.
The instability in Egypt is a primary concern to U.S. President Barack Obama, who warned in an interview with Telemundo that it would be "a real big problem" if Egypt's leaders fail to protect American interests there.
-- In Tunisia and Morocco, protesters massed in front of U.S. embassies.
-- In Gaza City, Palestinians demonstrated outside U.N. headquarters, and about 200 Palestinians protested the film at the Palestine Legislative Council building. In one instance, Palestinian men burned a U.S. flag.
-- In Tel Aviv, Israel, about 50 people demonstrated in front of the U.S. Embassy.
-- Iranians protested near the Swiss Embassy in Tehran on Thursday. Switzerland represents U.S. interests in Iran, since Washington and Tehran do not have diplomatic relations. Up to 500 people chanted "Death to America!" and called for death to the director of the movie.
The Islamic Propagation Coordination Council, meanwhile, has issued a statement calling for rallies across Iran on Friday "to protest Zionist-U.S. plots against Muslim and Islamic values," the state-run IRNA news agency reported.
-- In Iraq, specifically in the predominantly Shiite area of eastern Baghdad known as Sadr City, hundreds of protesters hit the streets to protest the film. They chanted, "America is the enemy of the people," with some burning an American flag. Other followers of radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr also protested in the provinces of Najaf and Karbala.
So far, the violence has not spread to Afghanistan, where there is a high potential for outrage to erupt into destabilizing chaos. Obama and his Afghan counterpart, Hamid Karzai, have expressed their commitment to prevent that from happening.
The Afghan government has ordered an indefinite block of YouTube to prevent people there from watching the clips and staging violent protests. YouTube has already restricted access to the video.
Source:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/13/world/meast/embassy-attacks-main/index.html
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 14 2012 20:34 Jisall wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 20:09 kwizach wrote:On September 14 2012 20:04 Jisall wrote:
sraeli filmmaker in hiding after anti-Islam movie sparks deadly Libya, Egypt protests
Film by Sam Bacile, who self-identifies as an Israeli Jew, led to protests at the U.S. consulate in Libya and the U.S. Embassy in Cairo; one American staffer killed in clashes.
Bacile, a California real estate developer in his fifties who identifies himself as an Israeli Jew, said he believes the movie will help his native land by exposing Islam's flaws to the world. "
"Islam is a cancer, period," he repeatedly said in a solemn, accented tone.
The two-hour movie, "Innocence of Muslims," cost $5 million to make and was financed with the help of more than 100 Jewish donors, said Bacile, who wrote and directed it.
Op should change this. Bacile was a name used to cover up his real identity. He is most likely not Jewish. I can agree that he hides his true identity, the last person to even draw a cartoon picture of muhammad was killed by muslim extremists over in denmark. Also to Sourna, I'm not sure what your argueing but their has been anti-American and anti-Jewish protests all over the middle east from the film. The attack might have been sparked by that, or by a september 11th anniversary plot by terrorists, it doesn't matter. People are burning flags and trying to scale Embassy walls because Muhammad is being insulted. That is ridiculous. People have a right to be angry, people do not have a right to violence. Just because people cannot take a joke does not give them the right to try and inflict harm upon ambassadors. You do realize that the ones who "inflicted harm upon the ambassador", as in "killed him", did so not because of the movie but because they were terrorists who wanted to kill him regardless of the movie? Did you even read Souma's posts? There's a difference between the protesters who are demonstrating because of the movie and the actual terrorist act which had nothing to do with it. Yes I am not just talking about Lybia Show nested quote +
In Yemen, demonstrators breached a security wall at the U.S. Embassy as several thousand people protested outside. Four protesters died during clashes with security forces outside the embassy, according to Yemeni security officials.
Twenty-four security force members were reported injured, as were 11 protesters, according to Yemen's Defense Ministry, security officials and eyewitnesses.
-- In Egypt, site of one of the largest, longest-lasting protests, at least 13 civilians and six police officers were injured Thursday, according to Egyptian government officials. Throngs continued to pack the area in front of the Cairo embassy on Friday morning, as a large fire burned and security guarded the area.
The instability in Egypt is a primary concern to U.S. President Barack Obama, who warned in an interview with Telemundo that it would be "a real big problem" if Egypt's leaders fail to protect American interests there.
-- In Tunisia and Morocco, protesters massed in front of U.S. embassies.
-- In Gaza City, Palestinians demonstrated outside U.N. headquarters, and about 200 Palestinians protested the film at the Palestine Legislative Council building. In one instance, Palestinian men burned a U.S. flag.
-- In Tel Aviv, Israel, about 50 people demonstrated in front of the U.S. Embassy.
-- Iranians protested near the Swiss Embassy in Tehran on Thursday. Switzerland represents U.S. interests in Iran, since Washington and Tehran do not have diplomatic relations. Up to 500 people chanted "Death to America!" and called for death to the director of the movie.
The Islamic Propagation Coordination Council, meanwhile, has issued a statement calling for rallies across Iran on Friday "to protest Zionist-U.S. plots against Muslim and Islamic values," the state-run IRNA news agency reported.
-- In Iraq, specifically in the predominantly Shiite area of eastern Baghdad known as Sadr City, hundreds of protesters hit the streets to protest the film. They chanted, "America is the enemy of the people," with some burning an American flag. Other followers of radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr also protested in the provinces of Najaf and Karbala.
So far, the violence has not spread to Afghanistan, where there is a high potential for outrage to erupt into destabilizing chaos. Obama and his Afghan counterpart, Hamid Karzai, have expressed their commitment to prevent that from happening.
The Afghan government has ordered an indefinite block of YouTube to prevent people there from watching the clips and staging violent protests. YouTube has already restricted access to the video.
Source: http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/13/world/meast/embassy-attacks-main/index.html
Yemen (and to a lesser extent Egypt) are pretty problematic. You can condemn them if you'd like. Just don't be bigoted towards people who aren't involved in the matter, as most people have been. But before people blindly direct their rage, it'd be nice if everyone actually took the time to educate themselves on U.S. - Middle Eastern relations. The anti-American rage that a lot of Muslims harbor stems much further than a movie. We're merely just giving them more reasons to hate us, as if they didn't have enough already.
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On September 14 2012 20:40 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 20:34 Jisall wrote:On September 14 2012 20:09 kwizach wrote:On September 14 2012 20:04 Jisall wrote:
sraeli filmmaker in hiding after anti-Islam movie sparks deadly Libya, Egypt protests
Film by Sam Bacile, who self-identifies as an Israeli Jew, led to protests at the U.S. consulate in Libya and the U.S. Embassy in Cairo; one American staffer killed in clashes.
Bacile, a California real estate developer in his fifties who identifies himself as an Israeli Jew, said he believes the movie will help his native land by exposing Islam's flaws to the world. "
"Islam is a cancer, period," he repeatedly said in a solemn, accented tone.
The two-hour movie, "Innocence of Muslims," cost $5 million to make and was financed with the help of more than 100 Jewish donors, said Bacile, who wrote and directed it.
Op should change this. Bacile was a name used to cover up his real identity. He is most likely not Jewish. I can agree that he hides his true identity, the last person to even draw a cartoon picture of muhammad was killed by muslim extremists over in denmark. Also to Sourna, I'm not sure what your argueing but their has been anti-American and anti-Jewish protests all over the middle east from the film. The attack might have been sparked by that, or by a september 11th anniversary plot by terrorists, it doesn't matter. People are burning flags and trying to scale Embassy walls because Muhammad is being insulted. That is ridiculous. People have a right to be angry, people do not have a right to violence. Just because people cannot take a joke does not give them the right to try and inflict harm upon ambassadors. You do realize that the ones who "inflicted harm upon the ambassador", as in "killed him", did so not because of the movie but because they were terrorists who wanted to kill him regardless of the movie? Did you even read Souma's posts? There's a difference between the protesters who are demonstrating because of the movie and the actual terrorist act which had nothing to do with it. Yes I am not just talking about Lybia
In Yemen, demonstrators breached a security wall at the U.S. Embassy as several thousand people protested outside. Four protesters died during clashes with security forces outside the embassy, according to Yemeni security officials.
Twenty-four security force members were reported injured, as were 11 protesters, according to Yemen's Defense Ministry, security officials and eyewitnesses.
-- In Egypt, site of one of the largest, longest-lasting protests, at least 13 civilians and six police officers were injured Thursday, according to Egyptian government officials. Throngs continued to pack the area in front of the Cairo embassy on Friday morning, as a large fire burned and security guarded the area.
The instability in Egypt is a primary concern to U.S. President Barack Obama, who warned in an interview with Telemundo that it would be "a real big problem" if Egypt's leaders fail to protect American interests there.
-- In Tunisia and Morocco, protesters massed in front of U.S. embassies.
-- In Gaza City, Palestinians demonstrated outside U.N. headquarters, and about 200 Palestinians protested the film at the Palestine Legislative Council building. In one instance, Palestinian men burned a U.S. flag.
-- In Tel Aviv, Israel, about 50 people demonstrated in front of the U.S. Embassy.
-- Iranians protested near the Swiss Embassy in Tehran on Thursday. Switzerland represents U.S. interests in Iran, since Washington and Tehran do not have diplomatic relations. Up to 500 people chanted "Death to America!" and called for death to the director of the movie.
The Islamic Propagation Coordination Council, meanwhile, has issued a statement calling for rallies across Iran on Friday "to protest Zionist-U.S. plots against Muslim and Islamic values," the state-run IRNA news agency reported.
-- In Iraq, specifically in the predominantly Shiite area of eastern Baghdad known as Sadr City, hundreds of protesters hit the streets to protest the film. They chanted, "America is the enemy of the people," with some burning an American flag. Other followers of radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr also protested in the provinces of Najaf and Karbala.
So far, the violence has not spread to Afghanistan, where there is a high potential for outrage to erupt into destabilizing chaos. Obama and his Afghan counterpart, Hamid Karzai, have expressed their commitment to prevent that from happening.
The Afghan government has ordered an indefinite block of YouTube to prevent people there from watching the clips and staging violent protests. YouTube has already restricted access to the video.
Source: http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/13/world/meast/embassy-attacks-main/index.html Yemen (and to a lesser extent Egypt) are pretty problematic. You can condemn them if you'd like. Just don't be bigoted towards people who aren't involved in the matter, as most people have been. But before people blindly direct their rage, it'd be nice if everyone actually took the time to educate themselves on U.S. - Middle Eastern relations. The anti-American rage that a lot of Muslims harbor stems much further than a movie. We're merely just giving them more reasons to hate us, as if they didn't have enough already.
To the best of my knowledge i know it is against Islam to depict Muhammad in any way. This film crosses that line and I can understand the outrage. The film maker is not Islamic however and does not have to follow the rules of that religion. Like it or not he is within his rights according to the U.S. constitution to release a video such as the one he did. People must accept that.
I have accepted the fact that most middle-eastern countries dislike us. I don't know why, and I do not care to learn why so long as the dispute remains verbal. Even burning flags and chanting "Death to America" does not bother me. When violence gets introduced, I care.
People are calling for the film makers head, and his life is in danger. It's sickening.
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The center-right Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung writes:
"The murder of an ambassador in Libya and the attacks on US diplomatic missions in other Arab countries is sure to strengthen the skepticism that more than a few Americans feel toward Muslims and the political changes brought by the Arab revolutions. The deeply held American belief that all you have to do is liberate people from serfdom and dictatorship, and then democracy and a market economy will develop more or less on their own, burned to ash in the trial by fire of Iraq. A fact that academics and historically informed diplomats have always known can now be observed throughout the Arab world: Deeply ingrained cultural attitudes do not change simply because one political regime replaces another. In the long process of building a democratic society, it is not possible to simply skip stages."
That quote stresses how I think about a lot of these issues.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 14 2012 21:01 Jisall wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 20:40 Souma wrote:On September 14 2012 20:34 Jisall wrote:On September 14 2012 20:09 kwizach wrote:On September 14 2012 20:04 Jisall wrote:
sraeli filmmaker in hiding after anti-Islam movie sparks deadly Libya, Egypt protests
Film by Sam Bacile, who self-identifies as an Israeli Jew, led to protests at the U.S. consulate in Libya and the U.S. Embassy in Cairo; one American staffer killed in clashes.
Bacile, a California real estate developer in his fifties who identifies himself as an Israeli Jew, said he believes the movie will help his native land by exposing Islam's flaws to the world. "
"Islam is a cancer, period," he repeatedly said in a solemn, accented tone.
The two-hour movie, "Innocence of Muslims," cost $5 million to make and was financed with the help of more than 100 Jewish donors, said Bacile, who wrote and directed it.
Op should change this. Bacile was a name used to cover up his real identity. He is most likely not Jewish. I can agree that he hides his true identity, the last person to even draw a cartoon picture of muhammad was killed by muslim extremists over in denmark. Also to Sourna, I'm not sure what your argueing but their has been anti-American and anti-Jewish protests all over the middle east from the film. The attack might have been sparked by that, or by a september 11th anniversary plot by terrorists, it doesn't matter. People are burning flags and trying to scale Embassy walls because Muhammad is being insulted. That is ridiculous. People have a right to be angry, people do not have a right to violence. Just because people cannot take a joke does not give them the right to try and inflict harm upon ambassadors. You do realize that the ones who "inflicted harm upon the ambassador", as in "killed him", did so not because of the movie but because they were terrorists who wanted to kill him regardless of the movie? Did you even read Souma's posts? There's a difference between the protesters who are demonstrating because of the movie and the actual terrorist act which had nothing to do with it. Yes I am not just talking about Lybia
In Yemen, demonstrators breached a security wall at the U.S. Embassy as several thousand people protested outside. Four protesters died during clashes with security forces outside the embassy, according to Yemeni security officials.
Twenty-four security force members were reported injured, as were 11 protesters, according to Yemen's Defense Ministry, security officials and eyewitnesses.
-- In Egypt, site of one of the largest, longest-lasting protests, at least 13 civilians and six police officers were injured Thursday, according to Egyptian government officials. Throngs continued to pack the area in front of the Cairo embassy on Friday morning, as a large fire burned and security guarded the area.
The instability in Egypt is a primary concern to U.S. President Barack Obama, who warned in an interview with Telemundo that it would be "a real big problem" if Egypt's leaders fail to protect American interests there.
-- In Tunisia and Morocco, protesters massed in front of U.S. embassies.
-- In Gaza City, Palestinians demonstrated outside U.N. headquarters, and about 200 Palestinians protested the film at the Palestine Legislative Council building. In one instance, Palestinian men burned a U.S. flag.
-- In Tel Aviv, Israel, about 50 people demonstrated in front of the U.S. Embassy.
-- Iranians protested near the Swiss Embassy in Tehran on Thursday. Switzerland represents U.S. interests in Iran, since Washington and Tehran do not have diplomatic relations. Up to 500 people chanted "Death to America!" and called for death to the director of the movie.
The Islamic Propagation Coordination Council, meanwhile, has issued a statement calling for rallies across Iran on Friday "to protest Zionist-U.S. plots against Muslim and Islamic values," the state-run IRNA news agency reported.
-- In Iraq, specifically in the predominantly Shiite area of eastern Baghdad known as Sadr City, hundreds of protesters hit the streets to protest the film. They chanted, "America is the enemy of the people," with some burning an American flag. Other followers of radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr also protested in the provinces of Najaf and Karbala.
So far, the violence has not spread to Afghanistan, where there is a high potential for outrage to erupt into destabilizing chaos. Obama and his Afghan counterpart, Hamid Karzai, have expressed their commitment to prevent that from happening.
The Afghan government has ordered an indefinite block of YouTube to prevent people there from watching the clips and staging violent protests. YouTube has already restricted access to the video.
Source: http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/13/world/meast/embassy-attacks-main/index.html Yemen (and to a lesser extent Egypt) are pretty problematic. You can condemn them if you'd like. Just don't be bigoted towards people who aren't involved in the matter, as most people have been. But before people blindly direct their rage, it'd be nice if everyone actually took the time to educate themselves on U.S. - Middle Eastern relations. The anti-American rage that a lot of Muslims harbor stems much further than a movie. We're merely just giving them more reasons to hate us, as if they didn't have enough already. To the best of my knowledge i know it is against Islam to depict Muhammad in any way. This film crosses that line and I can understand the outrage. The film maker is not Islamic however and does not have to follow the rules of that religion. Like it or not he is within his rights according to the U.S. constitution to release a video such as the one he did. People must accept that.
It is against Islam to depict Muhammad, but there are many depictions of Muhammad that people do not care about. There's a depiction of him on the U.S. Supreme Court building, and Iran has many depictions of him as well. Most people are outraged that it is offensive, but the ones disturbing the peace are a minority (compared to the overall Muslim population, the amount of protestors is miniscule, and the ones utilizing violence are pale in comparison). Those inciting violence should definitely be condemned.
I have accepted the fact that most middle-eastern countries dislike us. I don't know why, and I do not care to learn why so long as the dispute remains verbal. Even burning flags and chanting "Death to America" does not bother me. When violence gets introduced, I care.
People are calling for the film makers head, and his life is in danger. It's sickening.
Blindly accepting their dislike does no one any good. If you're so averse to violence you have an obligation to know why they hate us. We've perpetrated more violence and killed tons more innocent people in the Middle East since the onset of the Cold War than they ever have, but I won't get into specifics because that would be straying off-topic.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
For anyone who cares, I found an enlightening article on why these events occur.
A couple excerpts:
Americans and Europeans are no doubt looking at the protests over the "film", recalling the even more violent protests during the Danish cartoon affair, and shaking their heads one more at the seeming irrationality and backwardness of Muslims, who would let a work of "art", particularly one as trivial as this, drive them to mass protests and violence. Yet Muslims in Egypt, Libya and around the world equally look at American actions, from sanctions against and then an invasion of Iraq that killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and sent the country back to the Stone Age, to unflinching support for Israel and all the Arab authoritarian regimes (secular and royal alike) and drone strikes that always seem to kill unintended civilians "by mistake", and wonder with equal bewilderment how "we" can be so barbaric and uncivilised. Russia receives little better grades on this card, whether for its brutality in Afghanistan during the Soviet era, in Chechnya today, or its open support of Assad's murderous regime. Meanwhile, the most jingoistic and hate-filled representatives of each society grow stronger with each attack, with little end in sight. ... As I flew home yesterday from Europe, unaware of what had transpired in Libya, I read through the 2008 report by the Cairo Institute for Human Rights Studies, titled "From Exporting Terrorism to Exporting Oppression: Human Rights in the Arab Region". The report described the often unbearable levels of abuse suffered by citizens across the region is one of the most depressing reads imaginable. Every single government, from Morocco to Iraq, was defined by the systematic abuse of its citizens, denial of their most basic rights, and rampant corruption and violence. And in every case, such abuses and violence have been enabled by Western, Russian and other foreign interests. Simply put, each and all the policies and actions described in the report - and 2008 was no better or worse than the years that proceeded or followed it - are as much forms of terror as the destruction of the World Trade Centre, invasion of Iraq, or attack on the US Consulate in Benghazi. In fact, the Middle East and North Africa have for over half a century constituted one of the largest and most pernicious terror systems of the modern era. And the US, Europe, Russia, and now increasingly China have been accessories, co-conspirators, and often initiators of this terror throughout the period, working hand-in-hand with local governments to repress their peoples and ensure that wealth and power remain arrogated by a trusted few. http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/09/201291391347458863.html
And when you actually research this stuff more deeply, it only gets more and more depressing.
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On September 14 2012 23:49 frontliner2 wrote:They're going batshit crazy right now. They're attacking more embassys, even the german and UK ones . http://www.aljazeera.com/watch_now/
Yeah, just red the news on ppl breaking into the german embassy.
Man, those idiots are on fire now...burning KFC stuff (LOL), flags etc.
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i thought its just a ironic/sarcastic/whatever film by some internet people.
given the fact that its from a israeli jew. i can quite understand their rage (even though its not in the right form by using violence). it much more turns into a insult.
and dont tell me the filmmaker didnt have hidden thoughts when he made that movie.
bla bla free speech and shit. its just insulting given the fact that there is a serious conflict between both parties.
but thats just my thinking when i read the op.
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New headline on Aljazeera:
(no story yet)
'Protesters have set fire to American school in Tunisian capital, according to Reuters. More soon...
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Just wow....this kind of reaction over a stupid parody film? What a bunch of fucking savages.
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On September 15 2012 00:21 bailando wrote:
i thought its just a ironic/sarcastic/whatever film by some internet people.
given the fact that its from a israeli jew. i can quite understand their rage (even though its not in the right form by using violence). it much more turns into a insult.
and dont tell me the filmmaker didnt have hidden thoughts when he made that movie.
bla bla free speech and shit. its just insulting given the fact that there is a serious conflict between both parties.
Of course this movie is a peace of shit full of hate and disrespect, but if I insult you, even if you're hardly offended, you won't cross the border and kill the Starsbourg's major nor burning the french flag roaring "Töten wir alle französish !!".
You'll yell, riot, prosecute me, threaten me at the most.
The reaction of this minority is disproportionate and violent against innocent people who didn't insult them.
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On September 14 2012 22:02 Souma wrote:For anyone who cares, I found an enlightening article on why these events occur. A couple excerpts: Show nested quote +Americans and Europeans are no doubt looking at the protests over the "film", recalling the even more violent protests during the Danish cartoon affair, and shaking their heads one more at the seeming irrationality and backwardness of Muslims, who would let a work of "art", particularly one as trivial as this, drive them to mass protests and violence. Yet Muslims in Egypt, Libya and around the world equally look at American actions, from sanctions against and then an invasion of Iraq that killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and sent the country back to the Stone Age, to unflinching support for Israel and all the Arab authoritarian regimes (secular and royal alike) and drone strikes that always seem to kill unintended civilians "by mistake", and wonder with equal bewilderment how "we" can be so barbaric and uncivilised. Russia receives little better grades on this card, whether for its brutality in Afghanistan during the Soviet era, in Chechnya today, or its open support of Assad's murderous regime. Meanwhile, the most jingoistic and hate-filled representatives of each society grow stronger with each attack, with little end in sight. ... As I flew home yesterday from Europe, unaware of what had transpired in Libya, I read through the 2008 report by the Cairo Institute for Human Rights Studies, titled "From Exporting Terrorism to Exporting Oppression: Human Rights in the Arab Region". The report described the often unbearable levels of abuse suffered by citizens across the region is one of the most depressing reads imaginable. Every single government, from Morocco to Iraq, was defined by the systematic abuse of its citizens, denial of their most basic rights, and rampant corruption and violence. And in every case, such abuses and violence have been enabled by Western, Russian and other foreign interests. Simply put, each and all the policies and actions described in the report - and 2008 was no better or worse than the years that proceeded or followed it - are as much forms of terror as the destruction of the World Trade Centre, invasion of Iraq, or attack on the US Consulate in Benghazi. In fact, the Middle East and North Africa have for over half a century constituted one of the largest and most pernicious terror systems of the modern era. And the US, Europe, Russia, and now increasingly China have been accessories, co-conspirators, and often initiators of this terror throughout the period, working hand-in-hand with local governments to repress their peoples and ensure that wealth and power remain arrogated by a trusted few. http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/09/201291391347458863.html And when you actually research this stuff more deeply, it only gets more and more depressing.
I read most of the article, but I think there are a few important points that the author isn't really mentioning.
After researching US activities in the middle-east there are certainly many scholars that would say the protesters have reasons to be angry, notably the support the US has had in the past for various regimes. I would think one of the first questions would be, how many people in these middle-eastern countries are even aware of US backing of some of these regimes? Is there polling data to support this claim? And to the extent that they are aware, how much anti-American sentiment is actually there as a result? That is, is it enough that they would attack embassies (not talking about Libya) as a result of viewing a single bad movie about something that's basically unrelated (criticizing their religion)? It just seems like a stretch. It makes a lot more logical sense to say that a movie which harshly criticizes Islam will generate a response from people who have very specific types of pro-Islamic views (I won't debate interpretations of the Koran, that is another matter).
Also he seems to take certain US actions as being definitively negative, and assumes that the protesters all share his view. For one thing he mentions the US sanctions on Iraq. But those sanctions were placed on Iraq for invading Kuwait...in theory Iraqis should have been angry that their leader, Saddam Hussein, didn't capitulate and let his own citizens starve to death because of his desire for conquest and control. Secondly it wasn't just the US it was the entire UN security council. But I guess we should assume for the sake of argument that the US has done 100x worse than other countries in other areas.
Also about drone strikes, I'm sure people probably would be angry. But for those who aren't immediately related to the people who died as a result of collateral damage, do you think that they view these drone strikes as being say a hundred times more negative than the messy, but positive result of deposing their country of an evil dictator who committed his own crimes against humanity and giving them a chance at democracy? Maybe those people see drone strikes as a necessary evil, and the majority are thankful that the US did free them from Saddam Hussein's rule (or the threat of the taliban in Afghanistan).
I guess all I'm saying is you don't really know, at least as far as this article is concerned. We know from this thread that there are sympathetic rallies for America in the streets that have been rising up; so clearly that anti-American sentiment isn't universal or they probably wouldn't care. Or maybe it still is, but its not as bad as the author makes it out to be and what they're primarily responding to is a particular branch of extremist Islamists, in which case these violent protests truly were about religion (again ignoring Libya). Until we see some more precise polls or research on this topic, that article doesn't really add anything meaningful.
To summarize, I read it as pretty much one author's personal beliefs or views of righteous anti-American anger that he generalizes upon populations in the middle east without any solid evidence to back it up, in the face of sympathetic protests that show a respectful attitude towards Americans that shun the behaviour of other protesters. But I'm sure you're one of those people who are walking encyclopedias so I would enjoy hearing what you have to say 
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I will not profess to now that much about Islam/Muslim/Arab culture, and I certainly do not believe the acts of a reported few should be representive of an entire culture. That being said, someone on here reported that there are 1.6 Billion Muslims world wide, with aproximately 1 million representing those who have feelings or behave in similar fashion to those inviduals who have, and are in the process of attacking US, German, UK, etc. consolets and embassies. If Muslims do not want to be judged on the acts of a reported few then they need to "take care of their own house" and put an end this insanity. At some point this reported minority of Muslims will do something so horrendous that the rest of the world will not respond in a measured fashion. If it gets to that point innocence on both sides will certainly suffer.
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EPT
