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On July 29 2012 18:31 sirkyan wrote:
Really? Can you show me any well-done study that proves this? I haven't seen a single one.
It's not that it creates lazier brains, it creates lazier people. Newton, Neumann and Leibnitz and so on just worked hard. It wasn't the time they didn't spend on watching TV that kept their brains fresh, it was the time they WERE spending on actually studying their respective subjects.
Some people flunk math, other's flunk English and have poor reading comprehension, as attested to by this post. So indeed both are important.
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you're kidding right? every one needs to know a+b=c
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United States80 Posts
On July 29 2012 18:45 TheMooseHeed wrote:
Is the gender of the drop outs mentioned at any point? High drop out rates could simply be alot of girls and an example of how gender expectations cause girls to fail hard in algebra through no fault of there own.
In low performing school in the US, females outperform males by a good portion.
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All I can say is highschool was a huge waste of time when it came to education. The more time passes, the more I regret actually trying in school, and wish I spent more time learning what it is I'm doing now.
What's worse is that even if the subject matter has no relevance you are "disciplined" by going to detention, and having bad grades just ruins your self esteem.
The smart kids are the ones who don't do the homework and instead do their own learning on what is really important and what makes them money later in life. I can say pretty much highschool results had almost nothing to do with success later in life, the only correlation is that kids who do well end up getting to do better uni courses.
You need to know your basic arithmetic, very basic algebra and that's it. You don't need to know anything beyond basic algebra its just wasted time that could be better spent on learning about business, communication or whatever particular field that's necessary for helping you in your career.
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Don't have much to say about the main point of the article, since at least for basic algebra I think it's self-evident to most people here that it's a load of bull. One thing I did find funny though was this gem:
making it as accessible and welcoming as sculpture or ballet
When clearly it's quite a small minority of the public that appreciates ballet or sculpture. Most people would be as bored by either of those as they would by math. He's a liberal arts guy though, so they sound great to him. For me then, the take-away message here is that we can't help but assume that everyone is, in at least some regards, like us, and if they aren't then they should be.
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I really polls are very helpful in these sorts of posts...
From what I have read so far many people seem to agree that algebra should continue to be taught and continue to be a requirement for colleges/universities, and I agree.
Even though it is a fundamental part of our lives, it is safe to assume that at least 50% or higher would not use the techniques used in algebra in their work again...but that is not the point. It gives universities a glimpse of what you are capable of understanding and learning, and for that reason i think it should continue to be taught
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On July 29 2012 18:28 sirkyan wrote:
Of course it's necessary. I say bring more math into the school, it helps with logic, which is used by EVERYBODY. Not everybody uses math the way we actually learn it ("x/2=4 solve for x", etc) but everybody benefits from it.
Should it be removed / dumbed down? NO. Down alter school to suit idiots, alter school to motivate them to work harder.
how does everyone benefit from it? how does it help with logic? Honestly most requirements for high school math are so trivial that it hardly necessitates deeper thought processes. The interesting stuff comes in college but if your field of interest does not involve any sort of math, you're not going to bother pursuing it and the stuff you've already learned becomes lost and you won't miss it because it probably wasn't important in the first place. People argue math builds foundations in logic. Maybe. There are plenty of exercises that develop your problem solving without touching on mathematics. Point is, there's a fundamental distinction between thinking something is genuinely necessary and only necessary because you're good at it.
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What's interesting to me is that most of my friend who came from math told me that US student suck at "pure" math anyway, even at the highest level, because they mostly study applicated science. I've never come to understand the "critical thinking" part, or how math can help you being a better citizen. That's crap for me.
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It's hard so we shouldn't do it. That is the most boggling logic, algebra and pure maths teaches abstract thought. Without a pure maths background I would find writing complex algorithms for my applications a lot more difficult. Total nonsense that it isn't required in real life.
The guy who is the source of this drivel is a Professor in political science, the world would be better off without that subject. 99% less politicians and more mathematicians would make the world a better place?
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wow I can't believe that anyone is questioning the necessarity of algebra.
Do we really need history classes then? Why should I know when the industrial revolution began?
Improve the education, even stupid people will learn.
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And another thought: to think that places such as India, China and our close friends South Korea are slaving away to reach the pinnacle of education, and compete and ridiculously high pressure situations, are doing this right now. Meanwhile in the US, we are considering the value of algebra? we have to put everything into perspective here
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On July 29 2012 18:58 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 18:28 sirkyan wrote:
Of course it's necessary. I say bring more math into the school, it helps with logic, which is used by EVERYBODY. Not everybody uses math the way we actually learn it ("x/2=4 solve for x", etc) but everybody benefits from it.
Should it be removed / dumbed down? NO. Down alter school to suit idiots, alter school to motivate them to work harder. how does everyone benefit from it? how does it help with logic? Honestly most requirements for high school math are so trivial that it hardly necessitates deeper thought processes. The interesting stuff comes in college but if your field of interest does not involve any sort of math, you're not going to bother pursuing it and the stuff you've already learned becomes lost and you won't miss it because it probably wasn't important in the first place. People argue math builds foundations in logic. Maybe. There are plenty of exercises that develop your problem solving without touching on mathematics. Point is, there's a fundamental distinction between thinking something is genuinely necessary and only necessary because you're good at it.
Using the part of the brain where logic comes from trains that part of the brain. There is no other way to train logical thinking besides mathematics and philosophy. No other mental activity accesses the parts of the brain where that kind of abstract thinking is required. Should we school our kids in philosophy instead of math? (They should be schooled in both, obviously. However philosophy is far less useful)
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On July 29 2012 15:16 Integra wrote:
Congrats to the author to finally discover that math, like any other subject, have areas which it cannot be applied too and thus has no real value for. What brilliance!
Too deep for the rest of us to realize huh?
I honestly think that we should make people more well-rounded, especially in high school. My program back in high school was IB which meant that I took a bit of everything. Since algebra's a large component of math which is a large component of science, I think that we should all learn some of everything, even if we don't complete it. I mean I'm going into math for university and will not continue to take any other science in the foreseeable future.
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On July 29 2012 18:58 firehand101 wrote:
I really polls are very helpful in these sorts of posts...
From what I have read so far many people seem to agree that algebra should continue to be taught and continue to be a requirement for colleges/universities, and I agree.
Even though it is a fundamental part of our lives, it is safe to assume that at least 50% or higher would not use the techniques used in algebra in their work again...but that is not the point. It gives universities a glimpse of what you are capable of understanding and learning, and for that reason i think it should continue to be taught
Really? I'm not the best at maths and I would have been pissed if I failed to get into a good university based solely on that fact. As it was I was not accepted at several because of my GCSE (exams at age 16) grades in unrelated subjects as opposed to my A-levels (exams at 18), which seemed annoying. So my cooking grades weren't that high, does that make me a poor historian?
I studied hard and earned a good History degree from a good university, but my one semester of Psych taught me that I am just not that good at maths and the sciences. I went to Uni to study things I enjoyed. Why should I be forced to study things I don't, things that will certainly not feature in my future? And why the hell should I be judged on the basis of something that is completely not applicable to me? This all harkens back to the very old methods of judging intelligence and academic ability, namely testing people in subjects that aren't applicable to the modern day world but everyone used to have to know it, so they should damn well still study it. I wonder if any of the people in this thread who are arguing that algebra be a part of entrance exams for Uni would agree that music, Latin, Greek, the Classics and Theology should also be used as criteria?
I understand that the OP is saying that algebra is used in certain professions, and necessary to understand certain things. So is a complete understanding of the endocrine system in medicine, or the workings of an internal combustion engine in mechanics. People who want to enter these professions study these things. Algebra should be the same - if it's necessary for your chosen career, study it.
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On July 29 2012 19:10 Groog wrote:
Using the part of the brain where logic comes from trains that part of the brain. There is no other way to train logical thinking besides mathematics and philosophy. No other mental activity accesses the parts of the brain where that kind of abstract thinking is required.
point me to credible studies where learning elementary algebra has lead to measurable increases in a person's logic and reasoning abilities that helped contribute to their success later on in their life regardless of career path. also we're talking about algebra. do not generalize this into mathematics in general.
Should we school our kids in philosophy instead of math? (They should be schooled in both, obviously. However philosophy is far less useful)
Philosophy is far less useful because your field of study doesn't require philosophy hence other people will clearly find it less useful?
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Seriously, we are talking about algebra: the most basic thing in math and probably the most useful in daily life. We are not talking about Calculus here, only about something really basic and easy to learn. I mean, math is probably the hardest obligatory class in high school and it's still really easy to pass, so if you can't even pass that, maybe you don't deserve a diploma in the first place.
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The same argument can be made about any subject in school. So what should we teach our children?
Anyway, imo algebra should be one of the primary subjects taught in school. Algebra is about problem solving, in other words thinking for yourself as opposed to many other subjects that just require recall. As an engineer, I am offended by this article. High school is about so much more then learning a specific subject. Its about educating yourself on what it takes to for all different types of fields so you can figure out what you will be best at and have an general understanding about what other people do. I could on for days about how dumb this article is but I'm done.
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That is just plain stupid imo. "Let's not teach algebra to make everyone pass!" how about, enhance the algebra teaching to make everyone pass, learning algebra and solving those problems will develop their brain.
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On July 29 2012 19:27 JoeSchmoe wrote:
Philosophy is far less useful because your field of study doesn't require philosophy hence other people will clearly find it less useful?
Philosophy is the very definition of education for education's sake.
If maths is not applicable, how would making it MORE pure and deconstructing it further be useful?
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and in what world am i gonig to use litterature, history, geography when i work?
i fucking know how to spell and write, i know my birthdate and who is the president, and i can find my house ezpz with my GPS.
with this kind of reasoning we're not going to go very far.
whoever wrote this article is an idiot.
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EPT
